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After all that discussion about cartridge formats and Sam's Journey especially... the cartridge board invented for Sam's Journey is nicknamed the Gmod2. While SJ is 512K in size, the board can handle up to 2MB in total (so 16 mB). And VICE 3.1 supports the format because the guys behind the emulator worked with KoB/Protovision to have it included because of the digital release of the game. Albeit about 80% of the sales to date have been on actual physical cartridge heh! That's a lot of carts sold. To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if once the game is released, enterprising persons were able to figure out how this cart for UR works and get a digital version of the code running inside VICE.
Well, finishing June here...a development update would be nice. Once a month should not be so time consuming?
Hm to me it seems quite clear that the only way to play it ON a real C64 would be the cart. And having dealt with cart production on C64 myself I can see the point of this not being artificial to drive up value but a logical restriction. Not too unlikely that one day emulators will mimic the carts but since there is a PC version in the style of the C64 variant, I dont see the point of emulator-images THAT much. Certainly for long-time preservation but I am sure Stirring Dragon Games will consider this.
I am looking forward for my cart - RPGs are meant to be played in long nice sessions ;-)
Take all the time you need, that is the nice part of retro games; they never age or get outdated ;-)
Martin 'enthusi' / PriorArt
@Kasper: Yes, and as I said, these boundaries are completely arbitrary and irrelevant. The fact remains that the cartridge could be taken back to the 1980s in a time machine and sold as a C64 game, and it would work using the original video and audio output of the C64. IMO that is the only true criterion of whether or not it "runs on a C64".
But then again, your complaint isn't even about running on a C64, it is about that you didn't buy the C64 version due to a misunderstanding of the campaign. The choices that actually deal with the problem are: A) get on the cartridge waiting list and (hopefully) get to buy the C64 version, or B) accept that you need to run the digital version on a PC or Mac because it is not a C64 game. (Notably choice "C) keep posting in the comments about what other games have digital C64 version and/or run on your chosen emulator/non-C64-cartridge" does _not_ help resolve the problem.)
Kimmo as I tried to explain, its only if it begins giving it non-C64 hardware. As long as it only upgrades its CPU but still being a MOS CPU, and as long as it only upgrades the RAM, then fine. The problem is if it gives it non-C64 hardware like a new type of CPU or GPU. Or like that guy did with a NES making it able to run SNES games by streaming the SNES game into the NES, so the NES was not actually using its own hardware.
Kasper, sad to hear you didn't properly read the specs before backing. But as not a single person is backing your point in over a week of arguing over the same points again and again, the error must be clearly on your side. So please, leave it be, accept it, carry on with your life and stop spamming the comments. ;-)
I'm really excited to play Unknown Realm! I know it will turn out amazing, so keep up the great work! :)
re. cartridges ad nauseam, yes, it is possible to make a cartridge that contains RAM. It is also possible to make a cartridge that contains a processor/microcontroller/FPGA. Why would it be arbitrarily be "acceptable" to include RAM beyond the 64K limit of the Commodore _64_ but not to include further processing power?
Also unlike the Turbo Chameleon (which, AFAIK, outputs VGA), the A/V output will still be through the C64 itself instead of a connector from the cartridge, so you get the period-accurate image and (most importantly) SID sound. It seems like stubborn ideological purism to keep going on about whatever other "more pure" C64 games in recent years that did this or that. The fact remains that the cartridge can be inserted into a real, unmodified C64 and it will output video and audio from that computer that looks like, well, C64. This satisfies the "runs on C64" requirement and (most importantly) the nostalgia aspect that is the reason why it is made and bought.
Now, yes, the magic inside the cartridge may mean that it won't run on _something other_ than a real, fully functional, physical C64. So what? If you took a time machine back to the 1980's with the cartridge, you sell it as a C64 game there and even though the technology in the cartridge would really be like alien magic to the people there, it would still look and work like a C64 cartridge game does - no-one would return it because it doesn't work on their Ultimate1541-II+.
So it seems that there is a contradiction of goals here: on one hand you want the game to be a "pure" C64 game in the sense that it cannot use all available modern technology (although you are willing to arbitrarily accept RAM and ROM far beyond the original capacity of the C64), but the reason for this is wanting to run it on something that is not a real, unmodified, unaugmented (and fully functional) C64.
Personally I just want this to be an old-school game that is _as good a game as it can be_. Yes, there are other games released in modern times that are developed by the most hardcore C64 gurus who stretch the original hardware to its limits, but that is completely irrelevant for _this_ game. I will much rather have this game be less pure, less hardcore C64 magic, or whatever is necessary to make it be better as a game with the available development resources, because in the end of the day I'd rather be playing a good game than marvelling the skill of C64 development.
(And yes, it would be even better if you could have both at the same time, but that is not an option here: the development path is already chosen and the development resources are very limited. It is unfortunate that apparently the campaign wasn't clear enough about this, but IMO once you've admitted not even checking the FAQ before pledging $150(?), and indeed not until a year later, you have to accept that it is not only the campaign that is at fault here.)
As for Sams Journey, yes, its a perfect example of what I had hoped to see with this game.
Dard, guess maybe you just did not know this, but it is perfectly possible to make digital cartridges that include a RAM expansion. Your whole argument seems to be based on somehow cartridges could not be digital. Both my Turbo Chameleon 64 and my Ultimate 1541-II supports different digital cartridge images, some of them extend the RAM in the C64. F.ex. REU RAM that gives the C64 16mb extra RAM. There is also RAM expansions for the C128.
What would make it less of a C64 game though, is if its a cartridge that is more advanced than this. Like that guy who made a Nintendo Cartridge that could make an "unmodified" NES run SNES games (Super Nintendo), except all it did was stream the SNES game, it did not actually run it.
The same way as I dan do that on my C64, running Amiga games "on it" through my Turbo Chameleon 64. In case its unclear, Amiga games does not become C64 games just because you run them on the TC64. I do count it as a C64 game as long as its using the C64 CPU and such. SuperCPU, still C64. But if it essentially just skips 95% of the C64 hardware and practically just use its joystick ports and keyboard, then its not really a c64 game anymore.
Going for the Kickstarter alone it seemed obvious to me that this was a PC game first since the title is "for PC and C64" and not "for C64 and PC".
It was also very clearly stated in the text that it would be cartridge-only for C64.
I have never heared of anybody before that considers a game on cartridge only would "not be much of a C64-game". Taking advantage of superior capabilities of a cartridge both for gaming and for different applications dates back to the beginning of home computing. It was integral for the VC20 for example and only made most of its games (like choplifter) possible.
I see no reason why modern game developers should not do what developers back in the early 80's did.
Besides, a bit of trivia:
Probably the most praised (deservedly) C64 game of the recent years is "Sam's Journey", which comes out both on cartridge and floppy. However, there's a catch. "Sam's Journey" was a C64 game only and heavily optimized to the extend where only PAL machines could handle using only its CPU. So the NTSC version is floppy only and that is a compromise: Copy routines whould have to use a C64 RAM extension, which has to be a cartridge. Therefore, the program has to be delivered on floppy and the player has to own a RAM extension.
My point: Just because a game is either only possible on cartridge or is only delivered on cartridge does not make it any less of a C64 game and up to now I have not heared anybody who says it is.
And besides all that: At every point in the Kickstarter campaign everything was clearly communicated. I fail to see any problem at all.
re. copy protection, my point is that they almost certainly do not care about copy protection, and the C64 version being cartridge only has nothing do with copy protection.
re. primarily a PC game, yes, it was also my impression from the start that this is indeed primarily a PC game.
Well, they should not care about copy protecting the game is my point.
If the game runs mainly on the cartridge it would just make it not much of a C64 game... the Turbo Chameleon 64 can run as an Amiga. Me playing an Amiga game on it and using the C64 keyboard and joystick ports does not make the Amiga game into a C64 game.
Their main argument against floppy disks were that floppy disks would not be able to contain the game very well without using at least 4 disks... if tis 16mbits of data, or 2mbyte, its probably more than that. Also on a cartridge the game would load faster.
But cartridges like the Turbo Chameleon 64 and Ultimate 1541 already got lots of extra RAM and such, so a digital version of the game should be possible to run on those.
But now they themselves write how the game is actually primarily a PC game...
"It shouldn't be a surprise that Unknown Realm, as a *PC* RPG, would be delivered in a digital format playable on PC! The only difference is that U.R. is a *PC* game which also happens to have a C64 version on cartridge only. "
I guess I was a fool to go by the title of the Kickstarter. Seems highly likely that it could take at least a year or more before anyone sees one of these cartridges after the game is finally finished for PC, if they can even manage to get it to work since they insist so much on pushing the C64 past its limits and making what must be very custom hardware to make that possible.
re. campaign page, well, obviously it is true that it failed to communicate this _to you_ but not to everyone.
re. cartridge, I'd wager the developers have considered all available cartridges for this, and the reason they weren't selected might be that the cartridge is not just for ROM + RAM. I'd further bet that they would be very happy to use an existing solution if there was a suitable one, because that would be much easier and cheaper to produce, and they could actually make some money selling the C64 version after the Kickstarter. (If you think about it, the copy-protection "feature" of the custom cartridge is pointless since they aren't making more official cartridges anyway, so why should they care about stopping C64 piracy specifically?)
re. comparison to other C64 games, yes, well, we all know it's possible to do some pretty amazing stuff with limited resources on the C64. However, I think this is primarily a PC game that just happens to be done in the spirit of 8-bit games, and that's where the development focus is. The C64 version is a very limited edition, but again I'm guessing that version actually runs mostly on the cartridge hardware itself and the C64 is used mainly for I/O. (Of course I could be wrong.)
As for reading through the campaign page itself... it really completely fails on its own to explain that there is no digital C64 version. Looking at the tiers they say there is a digital version. Later its said there is a zipbag version for the C64 and one for PC. Same with collectors edition... so the only tiers that says anything about the C64 has similar tier saying PC instead of C64... which really only further supports that the first tier being a digital copy of the game, would be one that is for both the C64 and PC. There are several special cartridges for the C64 and usually a digital version of them can be used. Ones with RAM expansion, a lot of memory and so on, and still they can be used with TC64 and Ultimate 1541 / Ultimate 64. The digital cartridge version of Sams Journey cannot yet be used with U64 or TC64, but it can be used with Vice64 at least, and it might therefore also be possible to reflash if there was an update.
Point being, mentioning a special cartridge version for the C64 as part of "The C64 version", does in no way inherently say it excludes a digital C64 release... if it did the digital only tier should obviously explain that. The FAQ should be for explaining any further details about the game... not anything as significant as the game not having any kind of digital C64 release. That is a pretty simple thing to clarify on the Kickstarter page and in the tiers.
In which case I probably would not have backed this. 150 dollars for a C64 game? Sure its stylish and impressive, but it seems way to likely to have serious unforeseen issues which is just not something I would throw 150 dollars at.
Yes, of course they would need to take their time developing it, that is how I feel about most Kickstarter projects, but unless there was a way to update the cartridge or reflash it, then it still just seems too risky a way of doing it. Which would bring it back to a digital version, and again, at least that way there would be a digital version with the image, even if it would not be usable with an Ultimate 1541 or Turbo Chameleon 64, it might one day be usable with them or emulators.
The game would not have to be smaller just because it is not on a cartridge. Sams Journey got released both as a cartridge and on D64 images, the cartridge version would not work as an image with the Ultimate 1541 or the TC64, but it would work with Vice. But without the cartridge you could still use the D64 version to play the game on the other two.
All they have wrote about their cartridge is that it adds memory and supports 2mb of it. Whereas the EasyFlash so far only supports 1mb.
These are different issues, but the problems a hardware version only brings is why I could not and really still cannot see why they would do it this way, with no digital version of it. A digital version would always be possible, if nothing else, as source code. For two developers it is a lot of work for sure.
But on top of the very unlikely decision to make it as a cartridge only, they failed to make this clear on the sales page itself, especially on the pledge descriptions it ought to be clear. When not on this page, the digital version is often mentioned as a PC digital version. Pretty strange that its not so in the tiers.
So it is different points, but it all ends up at the same point, that it does not make much sense to only make the release on the cartridge. I cannot support a product like that, its not even done yet, and no guarantee it will ever work. The developers do not really seem to have thought it through, or there would have been taken ways of reflashing the cartridges into consideration.
It does make sense they would want 2mb to add the game to that would be available fast, but while that could be useful it is not really that useful if it is at the cost of a game that comes with serious bugs hidden in it that cannot be fixed. Reu RAM should be possible to use for this, but it is ram, there would need to be something to load the game from as well.
Look at a game like Times of Lore... amazing game. Especially that they managed to make it in a way so that it could be in the C64 RAM. Quite a bit game, where it could all fit in the RAM. With Unknown Realm, it mainly seems to be to be full-screen graphics that makes it need 2mb RAM. They could have decided to make it take up less than 1mb RAM, make it fit on f.ex. 4 floppies. Then it might also had been possible to stay within the deadline, and it would not be so impossible to properly test the cartridge version before releasing it.
@Kasper: You raise a number of separate issues, some of which are quite distinct from one another, so it's a bit hard to keep track of the point. So I'll try to address them separately. (Of course I'm just another backer so these are just my own opinions and speculation, not based on any more information than what you have.)
A) "did not not back what you thought you backed" – fair enough, but IMO this is primarily your own fault for backing without looking at the FAQ or possibly reading thoroughly through the campaign page.
B) "non-cartridge version could be a simple [anything]" – you assert that it would be relatively simple to make in some other way, yet the specifics of the custom cartridge are (AFAIK) not know other than that it will include save-to-cartridge capability. Does it have a microcontroller that actually executes code? Would the game assets be splittable across multiple disks/cartridges in a reasonable way? And regardless of this, it is almost certainly too late to change that now without massively impacting the (already late) schedule and/or the playability of the game. My guess is that the game was always intended to be a "modern" rather than a pure period-accurate C64 game, and the custom cartridge is what enables a modern development approach while using the C64 display and audio hardware for the nostalgia effect.
C) "other people want a digital C64 release" – yes, surely nearly anyone would want it _if there were no trade-offs_. However, if the trade-off is that the game would need to be considerably smaller (whether world size, graphics, music, and/or features), have much longer load times, take even longer to develop, etc, would they still want it? I think you're again asserting that the cartridge-only is mainly for copy protection, which I believe to be false. (My personal guess would be that the scope of the game is too ambitious to "really" do on C64 with the resources available, and so the developer is using custom hardware in the cartridge to enable them to use modern development tools and techniques, i.e., the cartridge could be quite far from being just storage.)
(To clarify my earlier statement, I didn't mean that there's zero other people who would want a digital C64 version – in absence of trade-offs, at least – but rather that the situation of your C64 not being able to run a custom cartridge is quite unique. But AFAIK the cartridge is meant to support C128 as well.)
D) "it will run on Steam through a C64 emulator" - the "Anvil platform" that the PC version is intended to run on could be considered a C64 emulator, but it just isn't a "regular" C64 emulator. Anyway, that quote is from a third-party website posted after the Kickstarter campaign, whereas you clearly have backed earlier than that, so I don't know what the relevance is.
E) "critical bug after the release of the cartridge that is found too late" – Now, this is the most relevant point that you raise. As a cartridge backer this is indeed my biggest concern regarding the game, and paradoxically also why I'm not that concerned about delays in the project, because at least in indicates that they aren't rushing the cartridges out prematurely. For me the optimal solution would be to include a capability to apply patches to the cartridge, e.g., through a USB port on the cartridge itself or on the C64 loading patches from floppies and then having the cartridge store them internally. But there is no indication that something like this is in the works, so hopefully their testing capability will be sufficient. Of course if I'm correct in my guess that much of the game actually runs on the cartridge, then they can test it more reliably with the PC version. Also, I would expect that there will be no shortage of volunteer backers to test beta versions on real hardware. (I volunteer immediately! =)
Another way it could possibly be made digital would be by using REU ram. Both the Ultimate 1541 and the TC64 supports REU, so does Vice. It would probably add some time needed to unpack and preload the game into the REU ram, but that is up to 16mb, and a C64 game should be able to be compressed very well.
Yes, but I had never looked at the FAQ.
Canceling the pledge. I did back it, they are doing a good job on the game, just that I am did not back what I thought I backed.
Yes, C64 tiers had C64 in the titel... but the same tiers for PC had PC in the title... so that did not really clarify anything.
A non cartridge version COULD be a simple disk version. Champions of Krynn which I have completed at least 3 times and will probably play through again, is 4 2 sided disks. So practically 8 disks. I have found other people that wanted to be able to play it from digital disks rather than a cartridge.
Then you claim others did not think it was digital or want a non-cartridge version.. also I do have a C128 besides my C64, just was not sure the cartridge would support it, but surely I would rather want a digital cartridge than a physical one. While its a nice gimmick to have it on an actual cartridge, its just too risky. How will they test such a big game on the C64 on this kind of budget? Nothing indicates it can be updated, so if there is some critical bug after the release of the cartridge that is found too late, well all the cartridge backers would be fucked.
Which is why I NEVER expected it would only be released as cartridge only... also read some of these reviews:
"it will run on Steam through a C64 emulator"... yeah, that is not the case. This might have been before the game even had a FAQ though. There are more custom cartridges than just EasyFlash, so that its a custom cartridge is in itself no indication at all that it would not be digital.
As for people asking for a digital release... that is clearly a thing... why would it not?
"So am I understanding this correctly, as it isnt too clear, that there is no C64 digital release? Only a cartridge version at $95 with shipping? Ouch."
As he points out, it isnt too clear. Next posters goes on to note:
"If you read the pledge amounts along the right hand side of the screen you will see that for $19 you get a digital copy of game+ manuals+ wallpaper, I'm assuming that you can play the digital file on a PC with VICE etc. "
Which is obviously what people ought to assume, only when he noticed the FAQ did he realize there would be no digital version of the game for the C64.
Another post goes on with:
"A cartridge version that costs $95US and you guys think this is reasonable?"
Well, personally I do find that reasonable, because it would be a physical release on cartridge... but clearly I expected that cartridge would be a bonus on top of getting the game digitally for my C64 and C128 as well. Reading through this, I realize that the collectors edition that I could sign up for would be more than 150 dollars, and I would still not be able to know if I could get it, and it would still only be a physical cartridge with the game.
150 dollars... omfg. I bought Phoenix Point last year. Physical collectors edition 100€. But of course a custom cartridge does not come cheap though, its much easier to just make a USB key or whatever they will do with Phoenix Point. Of course with that game I do not have to wait for the collectors edition to arrive before I would be able to play it on the computer I meant to buy it for.
A later comment in this thread goes:
"Welcome aboard Laura, but I hope you're not telling us that there is no digital c64 version for sale?"
Then its explained how "custom" this cartridge is.. which still makes no sense, so a user asks:
"Are you saying there's no digital c64 version because you can't emulate the cartridge? Since when can't WinVICE emulate any cartridge? I think more technical information is needed here..."
Try to read through this thread... people are CLEARLY wanting this game to have a digital version. Also there is the thing that a LOT of this collectors edition price is going towards the custom cartridge and having them produced. Pretty sure many like me would not and did not back this game when they found how much it would cost to actually get it for the C64.
This thread goes through at least 10 users saying the game should have a digital C64 version.
@Kasper: FWIW it was clear to me from the campaign title, campaign page, and rewards that the digital version was PC/Mac only. Admittedly the specific reward does not say so explicitly, but reading the other reward tiers (as I'm sure most backers do when selecting theirs) makes it obvious that there are distinct C64 versions that have C64 in the title.
As for the C64 being only on cartridge, the campaign page repeatedly talks about custom cartridge and custom hardware on the C64 side, and all the C64 reward tiers specify that it is on cartridge. And in case it still wasn't clear that it was on cartridge, literally the first question in the FAQ is "Will the C64 version be available for download?". Now, yes, it takes an extra click to see the answer (which is Kickstarter's fault), but just seeing the question should be enough to tell you that you might want to click on it in case the answer has implications for your decision to back or not.
So, I'm guessing that you simply assumed that this is like some other C64 game and didn't bother to read what you were actually backing, because even a visit to the FAQ page or a thorough read through the campaign page should at least have raised some doubts. That's too bad, and I'm sure you can try to negotiate cancelling your pledge if it is now useless to you.
However, this argument for how the game should be made in a non-cartridge version that runs on a real C64 is absurd. It would be a lot more work on a game that is already late, and the end result would be worse for everyone except you and the zero other people who insist on running it on a broken real C64 but not from cartridge (except possibly _two_ EasyFlash cartridges, what?).
Then there is the possibility to have designed it for two EasyFlash cartridges, where you would have to save the game to disk or tape and some point, put in the second CRT file, use your second EasyFlash cartridge or reflash it, and continue the game. Which would require the whole game to have been designed for that, which would probably be problematic if its close to using all the space and many things would probably be needed on both carts.
Reading through all 30 updates its actually ONLY update 6 and 7 that goes into... a bit indirectly, that there is no C64 digital version.
I have become pretty sure that I am not the one who thought this game had a digital release for the C64. I was a bit excited to read in one of them that it would have a Pocket CHIP release that would come free with the digital knight pledge as I have... but that was the highest possible stretch goal and was not reached.
Meh... I will just be off. Clearly its possible to make a digital version of the cartridge, but well, if regular CRT images does not support 2mb cartridges I guess it is going to be a problem getting it to work, but in BIN format at least people might have been able to make their own cartridges to put the game on. The IDE64 could probably also have been used.
Pretty clear? Clear as mud maybe? I clearly did not feel uncertain about what I was buying, because I had read the sales page itself and it really does not seem to give any good indication that it would not have any digital version. Look at the text you just linked, its the part that is CLOSEST to explaining that for the C64 you can only get the game as a physical cartridge.
Look at this:
"I think the C64 version will only run from the official cartridge. They've stated there is unique hardware because the game would not work from any of the existing C64 solutions, like the 1541 Ultimate or EasyFlash. "
Even after reading about it not supporting EasyFlash it was only an "I think"
Reading through that thread, lots of people also said they could not justify the price, especially when it would not have a digital release.
The part of the text you linked about dusting off your old C64, just sounds like its making clear that it will work on ACTUAL C64 hardware.
Also obviously a cartridge would not be DRM, its a hardware based copy protection. Guess when this game is released some time in 2025 maybe, I will just find a digital copy, because the C64 community is not sitting on their hands.
But whenever the "digital release" is mentioned, it never seems to say that its a digital Windows release, PC release and so on. It just happens again and again.
Saying that it was listed in the FAQ and talked about numerous times is not enough. ONLY in the FAQ is it made clear, where you have to go to the FAQ to get a clarification for something that should clearly have just been explained clearly... several times... on the Kickstarter front page. People generally wrote that they would prefer a digital C64 version of this game.
Some writing "I will take what I can get". The game does look great, but with a digital release it could have been easy to keep selling this game, and then make the collectors edition that huge physical bundle, rather than "we are not reselling the game because its a big physical hardware release that would require us to start up a production at a factory again".
Then there is the lack of updates about the game, but what I got from the updates was that the game would be delayed... which I figure was a well, something that always happens for Kickstarters. So I figured I would just keep an eye on the update for something more concrete on a release date of the digital release (which is explained as being PC only... where?)
6th update goes into this:
"C64 Ziplock Bag Editions!
We've had a lot of requests for bringing back the C64 Ziplock Bag Edition tier. Some of you have managed to pick up strays as they become available from time to time due to pledge adjustments, but we really wanted to find a way to open this tier up again for at least a few more people who may not be able to get the C64 version otherwise."
Only that last sentence here makes it... at least somewhat clear... that the physical cartridge version is the only C64 version. I never read this whole part because I had not ordered the ziplock bag version, as I mentioned before the physical version just seemed to have so many things being problematic and uncertain about them. But even if I did, without that one line, which was not the last line of the update, I would not have suspected that it was a cartridge only version. Update 7 makes it very clear, but I get updates about a LOT of Kickstarter stories, and did not really care much about the updates at first because I knew the release of the game was far away. I liked the idea so I backed it. Arguably even in update 7 does not clearly mention that they "cannot" make a digital release of the cartridge version... so even reading that it looks a bit like the cartridge is still just an extra perk. A way of being able to play the game without using something like the Turbo Chameleon 64 or Ultimate 1541 to play the digital cartridge on your C64. But it does then somewhat clearly mentioned the C64 backers as if they are only the ones backing this cartridge version... but then it also says:
"For our PC backers that don’t care about the C64 cartridge you don’t need to read any further. We'll have a juicy gameplay update tomorrow. :)"
Which hints at the PC backers probably being the ones ordering the digital version... I guess?
The FAQ makes it clear, granted, but that is just too late to reveal such a fact about the game that is mentioned everywhere as a game for PC AND C64. When such a game says it will have a digital release without stating what systems this digital release is for... CLEARLY that seems to be suggesting that the digital release must be both the PC and C64 version.
"but clearly you want to use the cartridge as a way to copy protect the game. And as copy protection often tend to do, it will just goes to be annoying for the people buying the game. "
This is pretty illogical. By definition all console specific discs and carts are DRM due to the fact that they only run on specifically designed hardware.
The PC version and the PC disc that comes with the PC bag set are both DRM free. I dont consider hardware specific carts DRM in the same sense as something like Starforce or Denuvo.
Also, often the DRM implemented with older games was in the form of obscure things you had to look up on the maps or instruction booklets. Refer to Ultima 7. Not the carts them selves.
to my knowledge
Also it was pretty clear here.
I admit having it listed in the tier would have clarified it more. However, reading things like faqs, the campaign description, and asking questions before backing if you are unsure could have avoided all this. You are the first backer thus far to no know that the c64 version was cartridge only.
It was listed in the faqs and was talked about numerous times during the campaign
Have you even tried reading the Kickstarter page yourselves, keeping in mind that it is VERY VERY vague regarding the only C64 version of the game is on the cartridge? Not once does it mention that there is no digital version of this C64 cartridge version. It just mentions a C64 special cartridge, but not that you wont be able to get it to use with emulators and C64 devices that support digital cartridges.
Sounded pretty problematic to make this cartridge and besides I would prefer to be able to get the game ASAP and not have to wait for shipping, so I wanted the digital version.
You can go through THE WHOLE Kickstarter page without any mention that the lower tier pledge is PC only. It already says "Game"... how would it not seem... just a bit obvious to add "PC" there... should certainly not be something you HAD to read the FAQ, or long updates to know about. Its pretty basic, relevant information about what the product actually is. The first mention of "PC" is the zip tie bag, then goes on to the C64 zip tie bag which includes this "Book of Lore" cartridge. Nice a specially designed cartridge version. Awesome. But a digital version was enough for me, so I stuck to the "Digital Knight" edition. I mean 19 dollars for a C64 game is a bit of a high price, but I figured I wanted to support this project, so I went with the 34 dollars one to get extras as well, and to avoid needing any shipping that might add extra cost in the future with import taxes and such. But the digital version is PC only.
"go read the FAQ you had since day one" I mean... wtf? I supported a Kickstarter, what you get from each TIER should be made clear in the TIER ITSELF... that ought to be... how can that not make sense to you? You really dont see how stupid that is?
Its a bit late to come and say you explained it in 3 others places EXCEPT THE SALES PAGE ITSELF! Gahh... "its a PC RPG"... not according to the title of the Kickstarter.
So as I explained... with the Collectors edition forcing me to use a physical cartridge... thats just not what I was going for. I specifically did NOT go for the cartridge version, because its the digital version of the game I am interested in... but clearly you want to use the cartridge as a way to copy protect the game. And as copy protection often tend to do, it will just goes to be annoying for the people buying the game. Should the cartridge somehow get corrupted or damaged... then that would be it for this game. Every other C64 game I own I have made digital, because they are not going to last forever, and it is really nice to play them using the Ultimate 1541 or Turbo Chameleon 64. One of my old cartridges is not working as well as it should, but there are digital versions of it, which dont have these errors that it has gotten over the years. Cartridges are clearly the must reliable C64 media when it comes to not getting corrupted or damaged... but it still has other problems as I have stated in the last few comments.
But you already said that I "might" be able to get a collectors edition... which is not even what I want anyway, and you dont seem to have any plans of a digital release. The community most likely will take care of that eventually, with the main difference being I did not pay you for it.
Its TWO LETTERS... how could you not have added those as part of the description of the rewards? I mean... really?
Which just makes no sense whatsoever... how is the C64 version going to be beta tested?
I dont think the profanity is uncalled for, and did not want to take this up in a private message, because I cannot be the only one seeing this as a giant flaw with the campaign. The backer reward says digital copy of GAME... nothing about it just being a digital copy of the PC version. So what you hid in the FAQ under a question you had to click to see the answer for? It was discussed "at length", well that does not really make it obvious when it has not been explained as part of the actual details of the backer tiers... it just says digital version of "game".
Of course I wanted the EXTRAS... it was supposed to be just that.. extras. Not the only part of this that I could actually have use of. Its sold with the title in several places as a game for PC AND C64... not just PC. Yet you have to have read... the FAQ, comments, all the text in the mails you sent and every part of every update.
How can you not see it ought to be clearly explained in the TIER rewards? C64 games today are first and foremost released digitally. The last 3 C64 games I bought all had the option of a digital release... did not seem like something I would have to dig through FAQs , comments, long winded updates and so on to figure out that the C64 version actually only comes with the physical cartridge version. Which at any rate is just lame. Every cartridge except Ultimate 1541 and Turbo Chameleon 64 have been made digital. Worst case, as a BIN dump of the cartridge. With a cartridge only version I would not be able to use it with neither my Turbo Chameleon 64 or my Ultimate 1541 II+, so even if I had paid 80 dollars for this game to have it as a physical cartridge, my use of it would be limited and clearly there is a pretty big risk of the game being this big, that it could have errors and be in need of updates.
Really does not seem especially well through through... which is such a shame because the game seems pretty good. As for the price, well I paid less for The Witcher 3 if we are talking PC RPGs. The reason I wanted this is because the campaign title and the description said
"Unknown Realm: The Siege Perilous is a new 8-bit fantasy role-playing game for PC and C64 inspired by the classic RPGs of the 80's."
That it gets a C64 release does not seem here to be "oh and its also 'happens" to be released for C64". That is a pretty major design decision for how to make and design the whole game.
If you find a way to make a digital... C64... release of this game I would not mind paying 100 dollars... but as a PC game or a physical cartridge C64 with no digital alternative, I can only regret that I supported this. Its not why I supported this, clearly. Would it even work on my Commodore 128? Because my C64 only boots if I go through my Turbo Chameleon 64, so using a cartridge in it would not exactly do anything for me.
If the cartridge really is as special as you say it is, then it might not even work with the Ultimate 64, which might be how I revive my C64.
First of all, we didn't have a chance to respond to the private KS message you sent us less than 10 minutes before resorting to profanity in the public comments section. Usually giving someone a day or so to respond is nice. The profanity is totally uncalled-for and doesn't help resolve anything.
Second, the information you're upset about regarding your reward tier was readily available during our campaign last year...it was actually discussed at length multiple times during the course of the project. You've backed multiple PC games on Kickstarter, so you're likely well aware how these things normally work. It shouldn't be a surprise that Unknown Realm, as a *PC* RPG, would be delivered in a digital format playable on PC! The only difference is that U.R. is a *PC* game which also happens to have a C64 version on cartridge only. Just to reiterate: There is no such thing as a digital format of the C64 version. It requires custom hardware (our cartridge) on the C64. I am sorry you did not read this until over a year after our campaign ended, but we did everything in our power during the campaign to make sure this information was clear to anyone who looked for it or asked us to clarify. We spent ample time discussing this exact issue with C64 users during the campaign in the comments section, in our updates and it was included in the FAQ from Day 1!
Third, you must have wanted the extras that came with the Digital Knight ($34) tier, including backer credit, or you would have just backed the project for the Digital Plus tier at $19. What you’re getting with the $34 tier is more than comparable to other contemporary RPGs at this price point. You also had the entire campaign to read through exactly what each pledge tier included and modify your pledge accordingly.
If you really want to have a chance to experience this game on your C64 system, we do have a wait list for the Collector's Edition C64. There are no guarantees, but you or anyone else interested in the C64 version should contact us via email (email@example.com) and we’ll be more than happy to add you to the wait list.
digital copy of the game my ass...
What is this? No digital C64 version of the game? 34 dollars for a C64 game... but for PC, because the actual game is only released for C64 on cartridge?
I was looking forward to play this game... but sure as shit am not going to play it on a PC. 34 dollars for a few PDF books I guess...
"Will the C64 version be available as a download?
The C64 version of Unknown Realm is only available on cartridge. All C64 backers will also get the PC version so they can play on their modern system through our platform, Anvil, as well. This game will not work on the the EasyFlash (not enough memory) and the engine was created along with the cartridge so it isn't compatible with standard .d64s or floppy images."
Whew! Appreciate the update. When you described what was happening to you IRL, I completely understand why updating Kickstarter was the last thing on your mind.
I would ask for regular updates going forward, however small. Just to let us know you are out there working.
I’ve got my C64 waiting. . .
Half year no updates. This realy sucks :-( Like i said before. Now there was announced an update this week, the week is over. I´m checking daily this site. Game should get an digital release (for bug testing) in Spring 2018. (like you said in the last update) Spring is almost over. Yes delays are quiet normal in the most KS-Campaigns. And the most backers understand that. But is always the lack of communication that hurts. Anyway i hopefully this gets an good end. And i hope i have my Collecters Edition not later than Christmas 2018
I second Dylyan's comment and would appreciate more frequent updates. Doesn't need to be all bells and whistles with graphics and pages of text. We trusted you our money, so it's a matter of decency to keep us updated, I think. Thanks and keep it up!
any news? ("this week" would be over by now)
Good to hear!
Okay. Whew! Still cannot wait for this game.
Hi everyone, we're working on an update this week. I know we've been quiet and I appreciate that people get nervous when that happens. Please don't be nervous! We've had a crazy roller coaster few months but we hear all your comments and know you're anxiously awaiting new information. We will hopefully get that update out soon and that should give you a better picture of what's been happening around here lately. Thank you all for your patience and continued excitement about this project. We're still fully committed to getting this game to you as soon as we can!
Officially getting nervous.
I agree with Kimmo. Additionally I find it highly disrespectful towards your backers here on Kickstarter. Last Update was last November! And some comment does NOT constitute an update. Please update us on the current status of the game,
Also I will stop trying to get friends and community members interested in this game - why should I? Currently I don't even know if you are still working on the game.
Hi, I understand that it takes time away from other work to post an update, and I understand that if there isn't much new to say other than "still working on it" you may feel like it's pointless or perhaps even disappointing to make an update about that. However, as someone who has seen many crowdfunded projects go through such a phase (most of them are late after all), the ones that keep posting updates _even if the update says practically nothing_ generally manage to keep the backers feeling better and thus posting more positive stuff about the project, instead of FUD.
So, I strongly urge you to please keep posting updates at least once a month, preferably every two weeks. It is more important for the community now than ever, even if it is less important for you or for delivering the information (especially if there is nothing new). The updates don't have to be anything fancy or long, just say what's going on and maybe a couple of sentences about what specific things are being worked on. So far the community around this game has been very positive, let's keep it that way. =)
Hey guys, know you are busy! But like the others I am anxious to hear some news, even if it's just we are still heads down working hard, here's a pic of us at the office or something. When you're excited about a project it makes you news hungry, :)
Any news ?
any little update would be greatly appreciated ;)
GDC is over, looking forward to an update...