by Palladium Books
Well, the update said they 'hoped to start production by the end of the month'.
Guess we'll find out in the next two weeks, whether they say anything or not, as 'production has begun' would be huge enough to shout from the rooftops once it happens. Silence might as well be a tacit admission of a negative response.
But, y'know, 2 weeks to go, three more updates. I'm sure it'll be good news. ;-)
@Forar, re another delay, I feel it's almost a dead set certainty. The booking time Palladium initially had with the production company has to have expired, given their belief that November was a possibility. So, who knows when the production company will have the capacity to produce. Remember, this isn't an in-house production where the machines and dies are all set up with workers standing around waiting for the go ahead. This is a company that likely works at capacity non-stop.
Unless PB are holding back, manufacturing hasn't started yet. Depending on number of machines available to process, and work hours (minimum tends to be 6x12 hour days, max obviously 7x24 hour days), and even avoiding any delays due to machine error, material supply, quality assurance testing, or any of the other myriad Murphy's, I'm not sure I'd pick an over-under on June. Cause even once production's finished, you've got 2+ months of delivery stuffs.
No, I'm Canadian, until this very minute I didn't even know the General Services Administration existed, let alone what it did.
Now ask yourself this: has this campaign given you any reason to assume the slick, well oiled distribution machine you describe is going to be in place? :-P
We're talking a triumvirate of companies that has turned "2-3 weeks" into 4-5+, and a Facebook competition with winners to be declared "in the first week of June" that has yet to be announced 5 months later.
I'm glad we're finally getting updates with a sliver of meat on the bone, but at this rate I won't be overly surprised if the delivery date slides another month in the next couple weeks.
This user's account has been deleted.
A) Palladium is a "Small Company(tm)".
B) "GSA"? Geological Society of America? Girl Scouts of America? Gonna need to narrow this down.
C) it's not just mailing things out: they'll be mailing possibly 5,000'ish different packages, and any single mistake could destroy what little profit they may be making when they have to send out a replacement or eat the loss on excess stuff send off.
@Nick: no, I think we can rule that out entirely. Shipping out 5,400 packages will be expensive, sending out a second wave would be prohibitively expensive.
@Richard, I would call the main office number for Palladium and tell them directly so they can plan accordingly. They don't always answer internet communications quickly.
As for releasing just the box sets, they are shipping them all out as one unit if possible for shipping. It would alter the cost drastically to break it up. They will not do that. it will be shipped out to everyone when they get every last piece packaged and boxed.
@Forar Has PB considered releasing just the box sets to the backers? It might be a nice idea on paper, but i am sure it would wet the appetites. I was just curious.
@Richard: I haven't checked, but you may still be able to do so from the Pledge Manager. Try logging in there and adjusting your address? If not, try dropping PB an email.
That said, given that the time between the PM closing and delivery may end up being half a year, I sincerely hope they'll make an effort to verify addresses (at least ask for people to update them somehow) when they get close to delivery. Across 5,400 backers I'm sure you won't be the only one that has moved by the time boxes are ready to start going out.
Thank you for the update on the re-lease timing. I will be moving in February How do I change my shipping address so it comes to my new address?
And the varied expectation is part of the issue. Some people have differing levels of expectation. Unless you're willing to accept zero communication, and no end date, then you have an expectation of some sort. Is June '14 acceptable? What about December '14? December '15? How about December 2020 with no updates until it's release? Unless you're comfortable with all that and more, you have a personal expectation. And people need to realize that other people have different expectations. It's like the GenCon/DetroitCon exclusives. Some people didn't care, some people cared a lot, personally, I wanted one through the BackerKit, but I was at GenCon, and made the decision I wasn't going to try for one, cause it wasn't that big a priority. Just because others don't share your expectations doesn't make them wrong.
I'm reminded of a joke I have liked for a long time.
An average looking man in an expensive suit goes into a bar, and approaches the most attractive woman in the place. He asks "Would you sleep with me for ten million dollars?", reaching into his pocket and pulling out a chequebook. The woman responds, "Absolutely!". The man pulls out a ten dollar note, and says "What about this?". "What kind of woman do you take me for!" she replies indignantly. "We've already established that. Now we're just haggling over price."
Unless there's no limit to what you're willing to accept on principle, it's just a matter of price.
Eh...just a lot of people with different understandings about what a Kickstarter is or should be.
Thankfully I have an understanding that allows me to stay happy with this project and investment.
For example, I think it is absolutely impossible for this project to ship "late".
There is no hard and fast delivery date listed anywhere that I've seen.
I see an "estimated delivery" date listed and that goal post has been moved around as the project looked like it was picking up speed or hit road blocks. But without a set in stone delivery date, you really can't be late.
So I've never had any real expectation of when this would arrive, just that it WOULD arrive sometime.
This goes for every KS that I've been a part of...and it should be noted that it doesn't matter how big the KS is, most of them that I've backed have arrived after their initial estimated delivery times. That still doesn't make them "late".
Good lord how kickstarter people can whine.
BTW, Palladium/ND needs to be looking past shoving the Kickstarter out the door. Gencon is fine, but there are a lot more gaming conventions out there and game demos/tournaments are usually run by gamers....but often enough there is no company support. No company support = Really Fething Hard to get local gamers going on it. If the FLGS (who cannot just buy everything published to take a loss on it) doesn't have product on the shelves, the game won't catch on because people cannot grab a box and buy it.
Disappointing, but not a surprise. I agree it is better to get the sculpts & molds right that to try to make a date. I also agree that more timely information about the status would be better, since now I know I not only won't make my first penciled in demo date, but I won't make my second one. The only good bit for the health of RTT locally, I should have my stuff in hand in time to schedule something with my FLGS.
I understand unavoidable delays in projects. To expect that everything will always flow smoothly is unreasonable at best.
I am NOT annoyed or even troubled by delays. I have only ever participated in one Kickstarter that didn't have something happen to slow things down or require a re-working of portions of the project because something wasn't just right. The RRT project is far from unique in this matter.
However, I am not a Consumer of this project. I am a backer of this project. This money is an investment, not a pre-order. I would expect to be kept informed of progress (or lack thereof and impediments to same) far more frequently than every five weeks. Especially when there is a precedent of prior "updates" being mostly fiction. I was (and have already stated so) very perplexed at the preemptive claiming of Chinese New Year as a cause of pushing delivery past February. If you haven't got items in transit from China before 1/31/2014, something will have happened well before that date (Chinese New Year) to cause the delay. Updates need to be far more frequent and far more substantial than a monthly rise and repeat of "Everything's 99.44% done. Here's a render of a single new unit from the game".
With the way things went down with this update I hope this doesn't mean a long wait for the next one. Wether it's here or FB or the PB weekly updates on their site.
@Rick: I wouldn't worry about it failing outright. Delays are admittedly common with large, successful campaigns. That doesn't necessarily excuse poor communication or being unrealistic about progress/delivery capability, but I'm sure we'll all have our boxes eventually. Maybe in February, maybe in March, maybe in August, but they'll show up all the same.
For all the bickering and bitching and complaining that may be done here and elsewhere, it is indicative of the passion people feel for the property. If not always those whose hands hold the reins.
So until then, there'll be time to work on your terrain, which hopefully you'll share with us eventually. I imagine this will all die down in the coming weeks.
I sincerely hope we see something concrete in the near future. It'd certainly be nice to have something positive to talk about, or stats to debate back and forth, rather than smoke and mirrors and bad news. Basically, if the next update opens with some variation on "I'm/We're Sorry", we might want to start worrying.
Yeah, believing Palladium could hit a release target was pretty crazy.
You've got me there.
Incessant repetition of the same behavior with the expectation of different results = Insanity
Glad we're on the same page, thank you for your cooperation. :-D
Patience and understanding = abnormal blind loyalty.
Incessant whining and griping = normal, reasonable behavior.
@Mike, there's a link to the Beta Rules on the front page. The actual finished PDF is at the moment (I think), only accessible through a link in a Kickstarter Email, and the PDF's get personally watermarked. I'm assuming that's only to the backers for the pre-release, and once the game goes retail, like all other Mantic Games, it'll be downloadable to the public.
@Lorindor: Not a problem and your welcome.
It seems we agree then. I forgot to thank you for taking down the post. And thanks for the compliment too.
@Lorindor: I agree, this latest update is a step in the right direction. There is always room for improvement. In fact if you go back to page 5 of this update you'll see in my very first post near the bottom, I cut the project creators a lot of slack. Kudos to you on your english. I thought you were american.
@Morgan, ah, ok sorry. So where is the link?
@Mike, I was responding to your request from Shaggy as to details on the Deadzone rulebook PDF, not your work on a proto version of RTT.
I guess trash talk and sabotage can be quite strong words. That's part of the language barrier I was talking about (I’m not a native English speaker). So I'm sorry about that. I did not mean you were actively trying to sabotage the project or being mean to Wilhelm, just that it may be a potential, unfortunate consequence of such wording. But I just want to make clear that saying you should be mindful of how critique is delivered is not the same as saying you are not be entitled to your opinion. I just feel like some of the critique here has lost proportions (and I mean this generally and do not want to single anyone out) and wanted to chime in. I actually think this latest update was a step in the right direction and we should all await the next update to see if the we’ve been listened to.
Whoops, my last post was for Lorindor.
I am presently using 2nd edition books to verify and update the stat cards since they were done playing with some 1st edition information
You can see some example stat cards here
@Morgan, in the same link there is a stat card folder. You can download a pdf that includes all the stat cards.
Point well taken. In the interest of maintaining a positive perception for the project I'll delete the post. Please understand I'm not trying to sabotage this project. Like many here I feel strongly about it.
I understood what you said. You don't have to use words like "trash talk, and sabotage". As Forar said earlier, you assign malice were there is none. Ease up there killer. I just want to show that if we can come to an understanding by exchanging information with one another. then so can the folks behind the scenes, as far as sharing substantial information is concerned.
On another note your link to the other half of that story was helpful.
@Mike, it seems really solid. Art and graphics are good, and the rules set seems pretty solid (no changes I can see from the Beta rules, just expanded and tweaked). It's not the complete game in and of itself, in that the unit, battle and mission cards aren't included, but it is the complete rules set. Definitely piqued my interest for it's arrival.
I just want to finally get back to you and try to explain what I meant. Perhaps we were affected by a language barrier. I think you are perfectly able to give constructive critique of this Kickstarter without dragging Wilhelm into it. It's not fair to insinuate that his opinions are those of PB/ND or to single him out among those who do not share your view. Especially in a forum he’s unlikely to be aware of and thus unable to defend himself in.
Also, I’m not sure hijacking a completely unrelated thread is the best way to spread the message to Harmony Gold. My concern is that venting the one-sided negativity to completely uninitiated may harm the public view of this project. I agree that the communications could have been handled better in many ways, but it is far from the time to bring out the pitchforks or try to sabotage this project. I believe you care very much for this product; otherwise you wouldn’t react as strongly as you do. Therefore, let’s try not to hurt it.
How do the rules look? I did not back but I'm curious about the results.
Mantic Deadzone PDF rulebook turned up for backers tonight in advance of our paper copies turning up with the other toys in about 4 weeks time.
I'm done commenting for now. I'll wait to see what happens in the fullnes of time.
To clear this up once and for all. How about a photo similar to this
(Scroll down 3rd picture from the top.)
To show us some real progress. Since it's "98% done".
Nah, that's some superhuman patience, but being annoyed, disappointed or frustrated with a 30-50+% increase in delivery time isn't unreasonable, and trying to paint it as so speaks to blind loyalty.
"Gotta admit, I do love the ongoing rush to be the least disappointed backer some folks have going on."
Seems to me that these people have reasonable understanding and expectations, rather than freaking out and writing a constant stream of speculation and disappointment.
Ok, nothing at all other than renders are available in regards to minis, that's fine, nothing new to show.
We COULD see things like the Rules, Cards and "accessories" if they're 99.9999998 percent done.
How about a new, longer, game play video?
Chat (text, video, smoke signals - don't care how) with the playtesters or the designer?
I mean, there is so much stuff we could see that aren't the minis. I'm fine with renders, after all that's the model they're shooting to make.
So yeah, Show Me The Rules, Palladium.
@Forar, no offense taken :)
I'll admit that most of the recent Updates do have me wanting to ask: "Where's the beef?" Like the old lady from the Wendy's commercials. I guess I'm just trying to remain positive.
Gotta admit, I do love the ongoing rush to be the least disappointed backer some folks have going on. "I'll be fine if we have it by March!" "I'm good with August!" "I'll be happy if we get it by 2020!" "If my box arrives before the sun goes nova, count me among the pleased!"
Nothing directed at you CC, just something I've noticed. The bar is set awfully low if they need to be 12 months late to actually garner ire. :-P
I don't get why you ask for shots of physical products when we all know physical production haven't begun yet. They are still in the process of fine-tuning the design of all miniatures. The results you are asking for from that process is the renders we all have seen. If renders and 3D printed mock-ups aren't in your taste, you won't be satisfied until PB actually receives the shipment from China and can actually show the final products. And then it's just days before you have the product in hand yourself anyway. To me it seems like you ask for the impossible.
I'll second that post. Well said.
I don't really mind a delay like this as long as the following doesn't happen:
1. The delay still results in crappy minis.
2. This delay doesn't become the first in a long-ass list of further delays that results in delivery in December 2015.
If I get quality minis by Fall of 2014 then I'll be very happy!