by Kingdom Death
Dec 20, 2016
Red Haired Dragon !!!?? Anyone else noticed that?
People are so focused on gameplay and value that it seems they forget to read the updates properly sometimes.
I like the small snippets like these that add to the KD background. Keep'em coming Adam !!
@Boomer you won't need fade for the expansion. Just like you won't need the gryphon, they both just add to the expansion.
Just wait a bit and see if Adam adds her to the campaign as an addon. If he doesn't, then the shop will have to be your next stop.
The red withces expansion is very sweet, but there is something that I don't get. It looks like you need Fade for play this expansion completely, but she isn't in the list of components, so how do you get it? By the time we receive the expansion she will be sold out in the store...
Well put @Jean-Sebastien Fortin
@Rainer if you read Fade's card you have at least two perfect reasons that the red witches would interact with a settlement.
@ Nathan and @ Kent... people just need to use their brain and their imagination when they have a problem or don't have the right expansion for this or that... you both mentioned that people were pissed off because it might take one Grifin resource to make the red cloaks...
Guys... it's just a game and you can all make the rules you want to have the fun you want... you want to craft the red cloaks but don't have the Griffin or don't want to put it in that campaign, just say that the red witches from this part of the world make it with Gorm stomach limning, or pheonix something else....
When I played D&D I did not wait for TSR to write a book about the town I wanted to play the game night in... I just made it up... if I decided that there was no hobbit / elf / dwarves, etc. in this or that game... we just played way... than changed the whole thing up again.
If I want to test the promo scenario, I won't buy a miniature 45$ on ebay, I will just use a proxy to test the thing ( 45$ for a character that can die in a random hunt event it a little too much for my taste)
People get so serious about this game that it is driving me crazy... like I said in another post... KDM is not the Olympics... there is no Police to see how you play your game... the end of the rulebook is full of rules that you can use to CHANGE the game... why can't people think that they can invent some themselves is beyond me... and it's a COOP game so people should be able to agree if they want to use house rules etc...
There are sooooooo many games where the community make a whole bunch of Fan created material ( there are some nice one on BGG). But the demands that people are asking Poots during this kickstarter are insane... from changing the models, to sleeves, to making alternate rules... all things that the community can do and leave Poots make new stuff...
And finally I will say that I agree with both of you... if you don't like something... don't buy it... and if you do buy it... it's your choice, don't whine about it...
end of rant...
@Rainer your logic is flawed. The white speakers can tell a story that can change their appearance, or make a survivor very dead. These are already part of their lore, and you don't think they could tell a story to make their magical teleporting cloaks NOT eat them without a suit?
Hmm. I don't think you can go all logic on this game. Thinking about the discussion about flesh eating witch cloaks and difference between witches and survivors. There is a lot of this in the game. It's meant to be mysterious and magical. I like the charm. I have more fun with just rolling with it. Somethings logically inconclusive -> magic :P
Jason Massatt: Aah. Nice one. I like that.
The more I read what's there the more it doesn't make any sense that the Red Witches would have anything to do with settlements that have no connection with the cult in any way.
I can only see this work if the survivors are given the option to ambush the witches. Any other situation would require the settlement to have some kind of dealing with the cult initially to be of any interest. Again, it's one of those lore reasons that makes little sense to include in a campaign.
@Jason Massatt, another factor that makes no sense what-so-ever. Either it does or it doesn't. One can't become immune to fire forever by applying cream to the skin and one day deciding not to apply it. You can't suddenly breath under water being a scubadiver and deciding you've done it enough times you wont need the oxygen tank.
This would mean anyone would be capable of putting on the claok on after it's been killed, weakened, whatever, without any danger to themself. Either that, or the suit becomes a perminant protective set so the cloak can be used. One needs to ask a question, hugs anyone? XD
Is that covered in existing lore? That was my guess, but if its power based and we kill witches, wouldn't we then be more powerful?
Seems like a good lore reason to have them in skin tight vinyl.... I mean griffon sludge jumpsuits to me.
Just a potential constructive solution
@pernicious The cloaks don't eat the witches because they are on a different power level than the survivors. The cloaks WOULD try to eat those witches in training though, hence the black suits.
"[The cloak] which eats exposed flesh and might absorb someone completely"
I see a lot of discussion on the pinup nature of the art, and while I'm not a fan of that particular art style being canon in the world, I'm kind of surprised the isn't more discussion based on the above quote.
I get the are lore reasons for white speakers to be what they are, cool, but why don't those cloaks just eat the witches?
I did actually see that, I interpreted it as more of a "I'm personally not satisfied as an artist with how it looks" as opposed to a "I need this to completely change" kind of design philosophy. I have to go reference my KD books to see what the "in-game" White speakers look like. Can't do that right now.
Sorry meant to put @Kent Strasen not @nathan
@Nathan nice put about the comments.
Actually on your point 4) to Isaiah if you actually scroll back awhile in the comments of this update KD did respond directly to Isaiah stating he did agree at least to some extent back on like page 4 now or so.
The campaign isn't over yet! She may still appear! >:D
The description says, that this expansion offers interactions with fade.
She should be available in this campaign as an add on.
If I buy her from the web store, she will cost me over 50€. :-(
I don't feel like going through these comments looking for the person who started the insulting, so I am just going to say it could have been either. Sometimes people feel their opinion being criticized is a personal attack. Then there are some of us that are just tired of hearing it and no matter how much we try to approach things peacefully, we just want to give up. Or instead of giving up, fling an insult. Everyone is different on how they approach it and how they act when things go awry.
Who asked for more? Lol. That could have been sarcasm. Seeing how these comments are going, it would be humorous to see. :P
If he/she was serious, then I'm going to say I object to that. What we see is good/far enough. Anymore and it's just combat in birthday suits. Hahaha.
Sure some people can be rude about their opinions, but in general I only see the what would otherwise be unprovoked rudeness at people expressing dissatisfaction with the T&A aspects.
I'm not objecting to the lore explanations, in all honesty responses like that are the best because it's actually having a discussion. But it feels like sometimes people tend to only throw out high minded ideals like artistic integrity, when the complaint is about too much skin, but not about say dynamic poses or tweaks they'd like to see in an armor set. Heck the person asking for more boobs on these models didn't catch nearly the same flak.
@Isaiah - holy crap dude... go outside. I've dropped into the comments section on this update 4 times since this it was announced and each time, there you are soapboxing about how much you dislike the concept art. Give it a rest already.
The, "if you don't like it don't buy it" has been stated in many other updates. Someone complained about the Gambler's Chest of being "not worth the price." We told them to not buy it. They kept complaining and returning to future updates to complain about the same thing again and again. Then they would gloat if they saw someone else express some concerns with it. Some peoples' gripe was that they pledged at the $300 BFGL level and didn't want to waste $50 to drop down to the $250 pledge. If you wait long enough or have Page Monitor, you can easily snag a $200 pledge level with just the core game. But no, they don't want to waste time or something. It's an eye roller.
Then some complained about the Frogdog and how gross it was and how Adam was a pervert and a hentai fanatic. That's straight up insulting the person who is making the goddamn game for them. We told them not to buy it. But no, they wanted the whooooole experience or whatever and were willing to sit down and greenstuff, file, sand, etc. to get it all off. What a joke.
Now we're here. The "sexiness" is a problem to some, because they believe it doesn't belong in the game. The lore even states why they are like that and why they don't wear that much clothes... My hope is that Adam hears their concerns, maybe change some positioning, and that's it. Lore and story shouldn't be changed just because some people don't like the aesthetics.
Let's move onto the Gryphon requirement. Why shouldn't it require it? Because it locks you into two expansions? This only becomes a problem if you want this expansion, but not the Gryphon expansion. The other way around does not cause an issue. I am not sure if the armor shown is the armor crafted from the Gryphon's Rubbery Spit, but I am going to say no, because the Gryphon has armor of its own. I would assume you would just upgrade the armor shown with the Rubbery Spit to resist the cloak. So, that's one piece of the armor you can't wear without the Gryphon expansion. Is it a necessary piece to have a full set bonus? We don't know yet. Maybe it's just a nice addition. We'll see. :)
I would say then, that if we are looking at this from a cultural standpoint in game, that there must be a reason for the "pinup" nature of their dress. It could be that the stories that they use to keep themselves looking young have a detriment of something like expansive breast tissue that needs to be bound to keep them mobile or have the blood in their bodies redistributed around their system. The appear to be blood magic users and therefore it could stand to reason that the "bondage gear/ pinup" nature of their dress is inimical to their survival. Like making it easier to use as the inside of the straps have small needles or blades that constantly pierce their skin. Quite simply, there is still too little information to go on right now about why they are dressed that way.
If on the other hand, if it is a cultish/ social aspect, this too would still be their society's choosing. One just needs to look at our real world reasons for specific religious dress/ prohibitions/ rituals to see the myriad of reasons used.
I would say that you probably have about 4 options right now:
1) Purchase and play with the expansion as is (I know not your favorite)
2) Purchase the expansion and sell off this set of miniatures and use others in its place
3) Don't purchase this expansion
4) Try to convince Lokman and Poots through a campaign of why the miniatures should be changed to something more like what you are thinking ( Probably won't work from what I am seeing, looks like the comments are about 90/10 in favor of the Red Witch style)
@Isaiah I cannot help but see how you insist on using the words "hentai" and "porn" in relation to the Red Witches design and art, repeatedly. Surely you can understand that not everyone sees things the same way you do? What we see as beauty and art, you insist on seeing it as pornography, and you feel like you -need- to persuade us to see it the same way you do.
It's like saying someone's outfit is too titillating for your taste because it arouses you, and only you, when everyone else in the area is perfectly fine with it, then you insist that the outfit be changed out of because it offends your sensibilities when everyone else felt that the outfit was appropriate for the place and occasion.
Just because something "titillates" you, does not mean that everyone else has to share your arousal. Just because your "pornography scale" covers a wide spectrum of things, does not mean that we have to share in your virtue signalling.
I'm just going to point out, that the replies of "you can't mess with the creator's vision" and "if you don't like it don't buy it" only seems to arise when people are criticizing "too sexy" but that same passion doesn't come out nearly as much when someone criticizes other elements like "this expansion shouldn't require the griffon to fully utilize"
The Pariah is in high heels. I bought the model when it was on the KDM site before I knew it would be an expansion.
I actually have post suggestion they've just gotten buried at this point. From a post earlier:
"[...] if for cultish reasons they have no sense of body shame/ clothes aren't culturally relevant a good step in the right direction would to drop the cartoonish proportions, remove the stripper-belt-harness pasties (just leave them topless with average sized breasts), ditch the sexy poses(hips thrust forward, cocked to one side, shoulders and arms pulled up and back to highlight breasts) and have them hunched awkwardly praying like disturbing cult members or just in [more striking] combat poses. The crones from the Witcher 3 had sexy young woman forms but still managed to be malicious and disturbing through mannerism. The old witch from VVITCH (the movie) was nude but high scary."
The black armors look awesome! I like how realistic they look.
@kingdom death I really like the concept for the witches expansion, love to get more white speaker lore.
I think we all understand that you don't like how the drawings look for the red witches right now. What I haven't seen in your comments though is how you would change them. I see a bunch of critiques but no solution as to what you would do. So, in the spirit of giving you the floor to make your case as to what you think they "should" look like, I want to see a list of your changes.
Here is a list of mine:
1) The witches should not be in high heels, fighting in them would be nigh impossible. I like the foot wraps, or sandals that we have seen on other models. Please use them.
Ok, now it's your turn.....
I really enjoy the way the Red Witches look and I know that the drawings posted are just the concept art, I like the design of the witches but i hope when they are finally made into miniatures that they have a more menacing/combat stance. I feel that would make them seem like more of a threat visually on top of the mechanics that they have as well.
Also, nice way of looking at it. You can appreciate the models in different ways, like getting them off the table as soon as possible. :P
You're the level a lot of us want these other people to be at. You might not agree with how things look, but you are willing to work with it. :)
I heard the same rumor, so I think he will try to do that. "Try" being the key word. He is also telling us to pledge for during the campaign, because if it doesn't work out... you're shit out of luck. You'll end up with whatever you pledged for.
Totally agree about this being art and polarizing. And that is a huge part of the appeal for me. I'll go one step further and postulate that Adam's intent was to create foes that people viscerally dislike from the very start. And in that regard, he has succeeded in spades. For example, I dislike horror and gore, and I very much dislike sexual horror. So the models were a negative for me. Until I realized that not wanting the model on the table was part of the game. I can't think of a single other monster-style game where I wanted the foe off the table for more than just gameplay reasons. Normally, everyone wants to plop some awesomely painted dragon or orc on the table and go, "Cool! Beautiful! Awesome!" And while some feel that way about KD:M foes, I'm unintentionally role-playing because I dislike them as much as the survivors. I'll face them for the resources they provide, but I won't look forward to it. And that is a wonderfully unique situation for me. ^_^
And kudos on the she-male witch with mixed sexual attributes. I was confused at first, too. But it didn't bother me much since I have gay and cross-dressing friends and family, and I know bodybuilding women. Yet others are clearly made uncomfortable judging by the comments here. I'm betting those people are probably totally fine with the raging dick and vagina monsters that bother me. So Adam is expanding the reach of his discomfort campaign. And that is pretty cool, IMHO.
zzzzzz not moaning about bewbs again. dammit you like it really
Has Adam ever confirmed that we'll be able to add money during the pledge manager? I heard a rumor that he might allow a one-time addition of funds after the campaign, but the last comments I saw from him on the subject said he wanted people to pledge their full amount during the campaign.
I mean maybe on a slim technicality its not hentai, but its definitely a next door neighbor. I've seen a fair share of hentai and they look (in costume and design) like they're a page turn away from some very explicit encounters. Is a picture of a Playboy Playgirl not pornographic if she covers her nipples just enough to not see them? If the goal of the photo is still to titillate, absolutely. Something doesn't need to be full blown penetrative sex to fall on the pornography scale.
Just a note (again): I like porn and sexy stuff just fine. I just don't like it all over something that isn't related to porn.
Glad to see you guys are still on this. Funny.
"Whose opinion then has priority?"
The opinion he agrees with obviously. That simple. If he thinks what I'm saying has merit maybe he'll listen. If he still likes the original style he showed here he'll stick with it. Maybe he'll end up somewhere in between for reasons that have nothing to do with me (and others) criticizing it and plenty of other people liking it.
Also its not nitpicking. Its criticism of art and of a product. Most designers and sellers of goods are happy to have criticism. KDM seems to be no different. What they do with it is ultimately up to them, but hearing from customers on what they think of a product and why is always useful.
Also to be frank, I don't care how many people do or don't like a particular thing. These aren't acts of god that we just have to live because they're some sort of holy decisions. They're designs for a board game whose design is in progress. If you like it they way it is just tell Poots you do (and maybe why) along side the people who think there is room for improvement. That's how this works. Like it or not.
@Dyne Better start saving!!!
@RainerWoreck, I'm happy enough to enjoy the explicit nature of the pin ups and not because of my "uncontrollable hormones". There is not many opportunities for painting these kinds of models in this scale. Can't wait for the challenge of getting some colour on these.
Love it. Keep everything exactly as it is. Pile on the male pin ups even, we need to make up for lost time since the first campaign too. ;3 I followed that wonderful person on twitter who drew the male pin ups for some of the previous updates. The guy with the sci-fi comic thinggy,
please let the pledge manager for this come much later in the year like April or something, cause I want all the expansion but right after Xmas that's not going to happen.
@RainerWoreck "Ignorant Individuals"? Can we please keep the discussion civil? xD Also, my impression is that this expansion does add a lot of stuff. It's one of the first expansions that interacts with other expansions, isn't that right? And only the second expansion announced to have a "mini" campaign (the other being the Black Knight). Both of these things I personally an incredibly excited about :-D .
@Rainer Woreck On behalf of gamer's with 'uncontrollable hormones' everywhere, you go ahead and take that money you won't spend on this expansion and do us a favor by applying it towards remedying the unfathomable ignorance you just displayed.
By definition, not porn, or hentai...
printed or visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings.
a subgenre of the Japanese genres of manga and anime, characterized by overtly sexualized characters and sexually explicit images and plots.
@Fontaine Christophe: You have a lot to learn about the porn industry. The pinups are very sexually explicit; Soft-core porn. It's still porn either way.
Regardless, it is the choice of the dsigner to do as they please. Doesn't force me having to buy the over sexualized models, unless I for some reason need the rules whcih are optional, and even then I could free resell the plastic kits to individuals with uncontrolable hormones. Pretty simple, really.
Well I wont be buying this for the reasoning of they a are option, an eye-sore (proportions are over emphasized) and overall doesn't add anything to the core experience of the game, at least nothing that hasn't been done before (every other nemesis).
Unless the miniatures all look like the artwork depicted right under the 3 Year Campaign text. Those images look sinister; black suit veiled by a red cloak. They look very much like assassins or spys.
@Isaiah Don't you see the contradiction? The tweaks you want come at the cost of appearances other people prefer, it's impossible for an artist or creator to appease everyone. Whose opinion then has priority? This is the distinction between the application of my egocentric statement, because it's impossible for the artists and creators to appease every backer equally, we should step back and allow them to create unbridled because we are but mere participants in their universe. We may not like everything that is produced (I know I don't) but as a whole I still love the universe that has been created.Trying to nitpick your preferences into every release to me appears entitled and childish because you assume your preferences trump others. When I say your, I mean generally to the complainers that appear after every update. The beauty of this game is there is no requirement that you have to use the models included, if you're troubled by something replace it with another model, or hell sculpt your own.