Share this project

Done

Share this project

Done
Raw green coffee beans to fresh black coffee - at a single push of a button. Let's change coffee. Together.
Raw green coffee beans to fresh black coffee - at a single push of a button. Let's change coffee. Together.
Raw green coffee beans to fresh black coffee - at a single push of a button. Let's change coffee. Together.
2,254 backers pledged $681,461 to help bring this project to life.

The final mile: Tooling has started.

8 likes

Hey Coffee Changers,

another week has passed, it’s about time for a new update. We are making big steps these days and we are getting closer to finally delivering the world’s first roast-grind-brew machine every single day. In the last update we introduced you to our new team members and we are happy that we are about to sign the next world-class talents to disrupt the international coffee industry together with us within the next months and years.

Another very important step was taken yesterday: We finally ordered the tooling for our machine! With this decision there’s no way back anymore. The first roast-grind-brew machine will become reality and there are only minor iterations necessary before we start production. Tooling is generally the biggest step in a production process. It consists of the so called Bill of Material, a set of several hundred little to larger components, parts and pieces. Pretty much every screw is covered here with source, origin, weight, dimensions and function. As the machine we are building is new to this world and a complete genre of its own we had to develop and come up with most of the parts ourselves. Even today we continue testing and enhancing of details. Most of the software needed for e.g. the PCB is still in development. Yet, with the release of our CAD files for tooling we entered the last mile to set up production, build EB-1&2 and deliver what we've been waiting for. But there’s more news from the production side: Jergus spent the entire last week in Dettenhausen, close to Stuttgart, to work with our Swabian partner on the roasting filter, which has always been a major issue for this machine. During the roasting process, a lot of coffee oils develop. But as our roasting chamber is pretty small we needed a small but still extremely powerful smoke filter. The one developed now, after months and months of testing, enhancing and minimizing will be of absolutely best quality and entirely “Made in Germany”. Still, designing and finding a suitable color and finding its granulate provider challenged us during the last weeks. With our partner's expertise and Jergus' continuous testings we were however able to solve a lot of technical problems in no time. Next week Jergus will come up with all details about this filter in a special filter update here!

KICKSTARTER FAQS

We received several concerned questions from 38 of you below the last updates, others reached out to us via e-mail and messages here on Kickstarter. In order to give you the possibility to see our latest responses on these questions at a glance we have started an FAQ where we continuously plug in new questions raised and answer them as quickly as possible. This way, you don’t need to look through all these comments to quickly find the answer you are looking for.

You find our new Kickstarter FAQ section on 

https://coffeechangers.zendesk.com/hc/en-ca/categories/200232921-Kickstarter-FAQ 

If you feel like there is a question not raised or not answered well please feel free to put it in a comment here and we are going to add it to the list.

We want to reply to some of the most important questions right here.

Why Is The Chip Only Single Use? / Why Does It Make Sense To Only Let Beans From Your Farmers Be Used? 

The chip is single use in order to prevent the usage of beans which are not directly traded from farmers. Our vision is to empower farmers on a global level. If we do not build entry barriers here, then all established coffee retailers can easily sell green beans which they buy for prices below production costs of the farmers and consumers can use it in our machine. Coffee is one of the best examples of a so-called "key article" which is used extensively in the advertisements of retailers. These key articles drive people into stores and thus are very often priced even below purchase prices. Therefore, retailers would be able to sell green beans they bought at world market prices a way cheaper than our farmers. We would not have changed anything, everybody would just continue to buy coffee in the supermarkets and the 25 million farmers on this planet would still found themselves exploited. For us - to make this clear - it would actually be a way easier if we decide not to do single use. We could talk to retailers to supply beans and we could just focus on building a great machine and make our money with selling machines. We could even sell our machines through these retailers and make even more profits. So why don't we do that? Because we have a vision which is empowering farmers on a global level, improving the live circumstances of these 25 million people. We are here to create the first direct trade network from farmers to end-consumers and not to end as just another machine manufacturer. This has been clear from the beginning and you can always count on that.

Why was RFID not mentioned in the original pitch? 

When we set out to bring the machine in mass production we have proved that we can build a roast-grind-brew coffee machine but we did not have our business plan ready and we did not really know what it needs to really enable our vision. In fact, we still assumed that we would have to bring in very complex profile settings to make the machine adjustable for the many different coffee varieties out there. We know that you as highly tech-affine people would probably not face major problems, the average consumer, however, would have significant difficulties in using this machine. We learned this lesson every time we talked to our 15,000 tasters last year. Once we discussed this issue with our manufacturer he presented us a solution he already built in other machines which were able to store profiles for favorite coffee settings (milk/no milk etc). Although we know that this limits in a first step customization it makes this machine usable for anybody. And: We would not have taken this decision after our kickstarter campaign when we did not know that we can eliminate these limitations later on. The first step was now to make the machine usable for anybody, the second step will be to enable customization to your preferences. We have not decided about the technology we will use but we would like to already present you one possibility: A smartphone app to control the roasting degree using the new technology of NFC.

We believe that smartphones in the future will all use NFC (Near Field Communication). In easy terms, NFC is basically a communication standard which facilitates the free exchange of data within a small area. Using an “NFC-App” will have the following advantages:

  • It can be used in every operating system (iOs, Android, etc.) 
  • Creation and storage of personal recipes/free programming 
  • Exchange of recipes and discussion about different roasting styles within the community
  • Professional roasters offering their customized profiles 
  • No more chips needed, can be replaced by e.g. QR codes

A realistic launch date of a machine with this technology can be the end of 2015. To build this we will rely heavily on our community and create a visions portal until the beginning of 2015.

Why was it not possible to build the old design?

The round top of the old design made it impossible to include all technical features. When started building the old design we also discovered some misproportions in the design drafts (see picture below) which made it taller than what we expected. Because of that, if we wanted to realize the old machine it would have been a way taller than the new one.

TALLER. The old design (with correct proportions) compared to the new.
TALLER. The old design (with correct proportions) compared to the new.

Another problem we faced was concerning the production material. Grinding coffee requires a lot of physical power and therefore the whole machine has to persist this continuous tension. The old design was built of wood which proved not suitable for this kind of machine. In order to work around these size and material problems the machine would have caused more than double the production costs we had planned. Therefore, there was no chance to implement the old design.

You see the gigantic dimensions we faced when we tried to build it in the picture below. None of our team members had a kitchen where we could have put that monster in.

GIGANTIC. Trying to build the machine with the old design.
GIGANTIC. Trying to build the machine with the old design.

You find answers to more questions on our Kickstarter FAQ page.

BONAVERDE HANGOUT WITH HANS & PATRICK

We haven’t done anything like this before. But we would like to invite you to the very first Bonaverde Hangout with our Managing Directors Hans & Patrick. You’ll have the chance to raise all your questions about the machine, our vision, our company, our girlfriends, pets, ... - you got it. Face to face, open and transparent, that’s how you want it and that’s what we offer. If you want to join this hangout and be part of the discussion please send an e-mail to hangout@bonaverde.com. The hangout will take place on Sunday, October 4, at 3pm (CEST). In order to make this as productive as possible we will pick three applicants.

That’s it for this week. A final shoutout goes to the ones who still contribute their naming ideas for our machine. We have 381 suggestions so far and still counting. Thank you very very much. You can still shoot yours to us at http://www.bonaverde.com/coffee-machine.

All the best from Berlin
Ricardo & Your Bonaverde-Team

Stefan Wandelt, Futoshi Komatsu, and 6 more people like this update.

Comments

    1. Missing avatar

      James F Nykanen on September 18, 2014

      AN OPEN MESSAGE TO ALL BONAVERDE BACKERS:

      Whether you are dissatisfied with the mishandling of the coffee machine project or not, you need to get involved to the point of understanding the gross nature of the changes made since the funding process occurred and the universal though false acquiescence of Bonaverde to the Backers’ desired operability of the machine.

      If you take issue with having to accept a machine that will only process Bonaverde supplied green beans at inflated pricing, then please voice your opposition with a simple email to me jnykanen@msn.com. The only message need be “ADD!”. Sign off with your project name and I will include you on the growing list of unhappy Backers being communicated to Kickstarter.

      Do not allow Bonaverde to go unchallenged for this diabolical scheme being perpetrated on all Backers.

      Have a nice day!!!!

    2. Christian Leth Christensen on September 17, 2014

      BV-Team all together:
      "We got 99 problems and the comments ain't one;
      It's all 99 of them ending in a bank run"

      Well would have worked better if this wasn't number 100, but just realized it when the 99th comment were there :D

      Hope you guys take my proposition to heart, with the only 100 dissatisfied customers wanting an immediate refund to save you all the troubles you clearly state you don't want...

      Still waiting for answers to be updated in the FAQ btw. :)

    3. Missing avatar

      Patrick Größ on September 17, 2014

      @Christian +1
      fully refund me now and I don't need to waste my time any longer to force you to get this project back on track!

    4. Arnoud Bijvoet
      Superbacker
      on September 17, 2014

      BV updates lack real answers to al lot of questions, repeating only what already has been said. BV is not fulrfilling the pitched rewards. BV does not bend to the demands of the vast majority of the backers in order to furfill the KS rewards as pitched originally. BV is basically not listening.

      Once again: BV I ask you polite to return to your original KS pitched plans: burn a couple of extra grants in order to reach these goals, drop your pride and arrogance, drop the PC tower somewhere, drop the NFC concept, drop the (oh so clumsy timed and presented) lock in concept, last but not least become more open,....

      If not, you'll lose the crowd and potential customers definitely. You can't buy them...

      I judge a company not by it's nice figures but by the way it is dealing problems. Till now, BV is failing on this big time. I really pitty the investors.

    5. Missing avatar

      Benjamin Kober on September 17, 2014

      @Brendan: you nailed it with your last comment. This is what drives me angry and prevented me from officially asking for a refund and pursuing other means to get my money back. They cannot be trusted, because there's always a "sorry, but we didn't succeed, but..."

    6. Brendan on September 17, 2014

      Last comment - this is from a July update when you stated "It’s news time – and this time, we have a NEW machine feature to announce! "

      This is when the RFID was first broached with the people that hadn't backed that feature because you hadn't mentioned as part of the the project funding window.

      "However, again, be assured that you will always have enough chips, get replaced broken or lost ones and can continue experiment with roasting profiles yourself - MANUALLY! " - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jimguldi/worlds-first-roast-grind-brew-coffee-machine/posts/902812…

      .." you will always get new chips and can try ANY bean from ANYWHERE."

      Remember saying that? I do. So now, no I can't. The farmer below? He can't. Everyone else who has paid for this machine? They can't either. Even farmers who have signed on can't.

    7. Brendan on September 17, 2014

      And for the obvious response of "we back an idea" and to chill out - yes. We do.

      As I have said, I have no problems with changes being made due to design challenges, or to ensure a product can or will ship.

      This is not the concern here. In fact it's almost irrelevant. It's self-describing.

      It's the addition of a previously undocumented, unstated and non-funded restriction on terms of use post end of project, that has zero relevance to required operation or delivery.

      It's one thing to change a manufacturing material, or shape, due to tooling issues. It's other to entirely change the functional parameters of a product AFTER a project ends.

      Whilst it's difficult to prove this is pre-meditated - it's hard to see how it COULD NOT have been. This is deceptive. There's no other way to describe it.

    8. Brendan on September 17, 2014

      "I would actually say that these changes are not favourable for ANY OF YOU! But they were absolutely necessary to put our vision in to practice, to improve the live circumstances of 25 million coffee farmers out there."

      This is actually an incredibly deceptive practice. If you were operating in Australia, you may be found to be in breach of consumer law. Items are supposed to be as advertised and generally fit for purpose. I am not a lawyer, but 'bait & switch' practices are usually in breach of legislation.

      I did not enter into an agreement to buy swipe & brew. So you cannot argue we accepted this outcome.

      The product shape and design was always at the creators discretion. You don't buy a car and have it delivered only to be told you can only use it for 3 days a week because the manufacturer has decided to change the terms after purchase.

      Further, far from helping farmers, you are ACTIVELY DENYING all sources of coffee beans, regardless of their source, UNLESS they come from the (4?) farmers whom have aligned with you.

      You even have at least one farmer here, in the comments, questioning as to how your little empire building exercise helps them. We both know it does not.

      This has been a deceptive project from end of kickstarter right through to now. I would have accepted some minor changes to ensure the project delivers and meets most of the goals. But this is not what Boneverde have done.

      I backed this project on good faith.

      You have made a conscious decision to force product restrictions and core function changes (and all the associated enforced lock in) AFTER the project ended. Please don't attempt to rewrite history.

      Whilst swipe and brew was mentioned early on, not during the funding window and NOT as an enforced solution until after the project closed. We were given ASSURANCES that this would not become a forced choice.

      "One general comment for our relationship here: We are still reading the comments but will not respond to it here anymore."

      Sadly we, the backers have no choice but to respond here; other avenues are effectively ignored.

      I feel for the farmer below; apparently not one of the chosen ones and LOCKED OUT of his own crop? How does that help anyone? He has to buy your product?

      I'm not sure it's the backers who are being unreasonable here. The reality is, the product now on offer is no longer fit for purpose and does not match the product description at sale.

      Inventing excuses for this, is offensive.

    9. John Schmitt on September 17, 2014

      BV is run by a bunch of con men who should be put in jail for the heist they pulled here.

    10. Dan Pearce on September 17, 2014

      http://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2014/09/49558-backers-rebel-bonaverde-coffee-machine-alters-design-post-crowdfunding-campaign/

      "perhaps Bonverde management should take a clue from their earliest supporters and try and accommodate some of their requests. I know that if I was participating in the investment crowdfunding campaign on Seedmatch – I would want to clearly understand how Bonaverde was managing this somewhat dicey situation."

      Their management strategy is clear: they mislead the backers who coughed up so that they could exist, continue to ignore their concerns and pursue their own agenda. Because backers don't get it. Except for the coffee farmer below who put his own cash forward. He might. Or the 300+ people who want refunds. They might. Or in fact any of the 2300 backers who now have a machine that lacks most of the features that made them support it in the first place are yet to buy a bean from Bonaverde. But its got to be this way for the sake of the (4) farmers obviously...

    11. Missing avatar

      yashwanth malladi on September 16, 2014

      Hi Patrick !
      You have not answered me .. I am a coffee farmer .. I have my own beans ... Why can't I use my own beans .. If you are talking on community basis what abt farmers like us ? Who pledged for the machine to enjoy our own fresh beans .... You need to justify abt this ..

    12. Missing avatar

      Kevin I on September 16, 2014

      @Christian +1, I love it when BV tries to minimize us. Pay us back now, then do what you want.

    13. Missing avatar

      Gary Reggio on September 16, 2014

      I would be interested in seeing an unbiased poll given to all the kickstarter backers to see who's happy, ambivalent, or unhappy. I wouldn't, though, trust Bonaverde to administer the survey. Is there any way for the kickstarter organization to set up/send out a survey of this sort? I have a feeling that there are many more silent but aggrieved parties out there who aren't posting but are just as disappointed with the direction this crowd sourcing has gone. Why was the community not involved in ANY of these design/philosophy changes? Why was Bonaverde not honest about its intentions? Maybe I'm wrong to think that this entire process has completely derailed, but I'm certainly not the only one...

    14. Reinoud on September 16, 2014

      I agree with Christian. If there are only 100 angry backers just refund them and get rid of all the 'negativity'. This should be a no-brainer. I filed my refund request to the provided email on Aug 21st but have not received any response, not even an canned response.

    15. James Tan on September 16, 2014

      @Patrick
      Fact of the matter is: All the backers of the machine are being fucked over with this CoffeeRightsManagement shit.
      We pledged because you sold us a user controllable roasting machine that has a built in grinder.
      Most of us don't give a shit about them fairtrade beans because we have our sources of green beans which we want to use on this machine.

      If you want to help the farmers, doing this is the worst possible route of action, because you just made a lot of REALLY passionate coffee people feel pissed off at you (and indirectly, any farmers you say you're helping).

      So please just rescue this situation and get us our refund. Don't make this shit any worse.

      Thanks.

    16. Missing avatar

      Benjamin Kober on September 16, 2014

      Thank your for your clarification Patrick - nice to get some answers here again, although I don't like the surroundings.
      I actually love Christian's idea of a direct refund - what about discussing this within your team?

      I would also like to second Christian's questions for the material the grinder is made of. You certainly know the answer and the question was raised here at least 6 times, so why not simply answer it? I checked the FAQ, there is no answer.

      In addition to that I must say that I'm very concerned with you beginning to ban backers on Facebook. All the comments raised so far by this special backer were no spam IMHO but concerns raised by a backers who was clearly a big fan of your idea and was turned into your enemy mainly through mistakes that happened within BV.

      On other question at the end of the post: if you already knew that the prototype you built was way to big, why haven't you told us directly in Update #8? I think we would've understood and brought some ideas in. But you just left that important piece of information away and it took another twenty updates or so until you came up with the new machine design....

    17. Missing avatar

      Jens on September 16, 2014

      Thanks for your response on that... but I still don't get it, sorry.

      So you have built a design prototype in November that was intentionally larger than the final product you believed (at that time) you would produce? Why would someone do that, if they are confident about making it smaller? And then published good-looking images of "that monster", even in a kitchen? I think the proportions look quite similar to what was depicted in the campaign sketches, and the images don't look that monstrous to me, except the closeup above. How large was it?

      PS: I have always been aware that it was just a prototype. I have just mentioned our conversation regarding the proportions a few days later since it also left the impression that you were aware of the fact that the prototype wouldn't be possible to realize.

    18. Christian Leth Christensen on September 16, 2014

      @Patrick: Thank you for the long post. I hope you believe most of what you write, and kudos to you for that. Regarding the FAQ, it's really not been updated for ages and I have asked 3 or 4 very specific question regarding the machine (weight, what is the grinder made of and quality and one more I've even managed to forget now because it's been so long). I realize you havn't set a timeline for updating it, but when days and in some instances weeks go by without doing so then...

      And I have to say, that if you really want some "peace" for working on perfecting this substitute product of our pre-order, then there is an easy way. According to your very own analytics you are getting daily (from your analytics division I assume), you have about 100 people of the many thousand backers across the platforms that are unhappy and creating all these problems. If that's the case I would say a cheap way of getting out of all pesky and annoying questioning would be to reimburse them right now -. not when you might / might not make a profit. So say 100 backers x $300 leaves you out $30.000. That's rougly 23.500 euros or about 2,3 % of the money you are raising on seedmatch in 3 days. How about that for some nice relaxing peace and quiet? I'm certain most of the unhappy backers would then happily withdraw their legal complaints and similar avenues that are being pursued as we speak. Even more peace for you guys, as you avoid answering to lawyers, courts and consumer organizations etc.

      All for 2.3% of your investment in 3 days. It's less than half a years wages for the current 9 opening positions you have at your company.

      Peace and quite have rarely been cheaper. Please write me when you realize that :)

    19. Beth Cowgill on September 16, 2014

      Hi Patrick, thanks for taking some time to answer some questions. What kind of analysis is being done regarding backer satisfaction? Surely you are aware that most people don't give feedback when unsatisfied - they instead just discontinue buying the product.
      Also, the responses given by Bonaverde recently are arguably unprofessional and blatantly passive aggressive. Reading this thread just gets more and more awkward. It's one thing to admit we backed a project which turned out to be something we wouldn't have backed had we known what we know now. It's quote another to mention admiting that you don't care about your backers!!!
      I feel like some people are commenting so passionately because they loved this project so much and want it to get back on track. But Bonaverde should exercise a bit more willpower and tact when responding.

    20. Bonaverde Coffee Changers Creator on September 16, 2014

      Hey Jens,

      first of all I would like to mention that we at Bonaverde respect criticism. You still see several critical questions on our social media pages, we will not delete them. It is your right to comment on things you do not like. I do not have problems with that. Secondly, I would like to be clear on the fact that we do not accept it if people continuously spam their negativity on all our channels. I do not want any of my employees spending only one second on requests like that. I have banned only one person so far. We have been 1000% transparent in the last weeks, you have detailed reasonings for all our moves. As soon as you do not find a question unanswered you can put it down here and you see that we are adding it to our FAQ. The fact that for some of you, the recent changes are not favourable stands on a completely other page. I would actually say that these changes are not favourable for ANY OF YOU! But they were absolutely necessary to put our vision in to practice, to improve the live circumstances of 25 million coffee farmers out there. So although, these changes were not favourable for 2,254 backers, there were only around 300 putting one line of criticism here. And this only means that you say that you don't like the changes! I personally would also not like the changes! But if there's only 300 saying something critical, there's even a way less who do not believe in our vision anymore. The pessimistical guys may say 200 but I know that it is a way lower, I'm getting the analytics report every day. 100 people not supporting our vision anymore compared to way over 3,000 people already supporting us on Kickstarter, Indiegogo and Seedmatch AND the new investors which join us every single day on Seedmatch and also the new pre-orders which come in every day (we haven't even started online marketing!) Now to these 100: I understand you! This situation is super horrible, you gave money to a project you would never have put money on if you knew what we are doing now. I hate that but this is how it is! This is a project which varies from the one you wanted to fund but keep in mind that this is still an amazing and powerful project which gets awareness from around the globe every single day. We are offering you the refund and I promise you it is one of my biggest wishes that I give you this money back as soon as possible that I can spend more time on productive things, building this business and making it a huge success - especially for these farmers out there who need this German startup to change this incredibly unfair coffee market.

      I would like to respond now to the reasonable point you've raised. Thank you actually for putting it down here.

      Well, update #8 that has been published after the design prototype has been finished, sounded a lot more optimistic than the text above: "we're happy to present you the a sneak peek on what the machine is going to look like in real life." [1] This was on Nov 29th. The Kickstarter campaign was still running at that time. On Dec 2nd, I wrote a message to BV pointing out that there might be an error with the proportions, because the jug could never hold 1.2 litres if they were right.

      So... @Bonaverde, please correct me if my conclusion is wrong: it sounds like you are saying that you already knew that the design would be impossible to build while the campaign was running (and even deliberately misled people with the optimistic update about the design protoype)? And then started an Indiegogo campaign without letting anyone know that the design won't be possible? And then started a seedmatch campaign?

      "I just had a look at our conversation. We told you that the machine on the picture was obviously only a design prototype and not a working machine. It was clear to us that we could never offer something like that in these dimensions but we were confident that we could decrease the size of the machine. I already said this in our statement with respect to the comments of the designer of the old design. We have learned over the last months that we were not able to decrease this size. At the time of the Kickstarter campaign we were 100% confident that we will be able to deliver the promised design. We were not and therefore had to change the design. As soon as the design change was final, we published information in our communities."

      One general comment for our relationship here: We are still reading the comments but will not respond to it here anymore. Instead, we will put all your questions in the FAQ so that everybody has an easy time finding his/her answer. I wish you a nice remaining day and I hope that you continue putting your thoughts in this discussion. Even if it is critical.

      All the best from Berlin,
      Patrick

    21. Missing avatar

      Kresten Helstrup on September 16, 2014

      @bonaverde - what about you start to answer some of the question that we send to you ? i sent a lot of questions here on kickstarter the 5th - YES THE 5TH of september - which you didnt care to answer.
      I also sent a question on your so called FAQ on the 5th of september, and also that question has not been answered. I guess i'm not alone in this boat, as i see many other unanswered or half answered question where you on purpose leave out details.

      So if you still cannot see that you, bonaverde, is the sole reason why people are mad - i simply do not know what the heck is wrong with you people.

    22. Missing avatar

      Lex on September 16, 2014

      My dilemma is this:

      The machine as it now stands is missing about half of the functions that were advertised when I backed this project in the waning hours. The omission of a timer and inclusion of whatever this locked down bean buying scheme has mostly assured me that I will rarely ever use the machine.

      But, do I ask for a refund and hope that they make enough money to pay me (which I don't think they will)? I believe if I do this I will just be giving BV money and get nothing in return. Or, do I just take the machine and wait for someone to hopefully crack the RFID to let me use it how I want?

      I would wait for the 2nd gen but I doubt there will be one and it appears they would continue with the locked down bean buying scheme anyway.

      Any thoughts about what you guys are going to do?

    23. Missing avatar

      Jens on September 16, 2014

      Okay, I am waiting, curiously.

      But again: please stop pegging people as negative, pessimistic, or reluctant to empower farmers. A genuinely negative person would have never thrown 300 bucks or more at you, Bonaverde, to support the original idea of the campaign. As you, pb, have gone through all the comments of the last months, you should have noticed that people only grew pessimistic during their ongoing Bonaverde experience.

      If you are now actually blocking people that helped to enable this whole business, and/or deleting their comments, that's just the next sad chapter of the story :(

    24. Blitzlord on September 16, 2014

      Edit: Last sentence was a copy to get the correct (or not so correct?) numbers.

    25. Tony Godfrey on September 16, 2014

      @Blitzlord

      It's my understanding that the 8-10 number was in euros, not dollars. So $11-14 I think is consistent.

      Sorry in advance for throwing this negativity in to the world, Patrick!

    26. Blitzlord on September 16, 2014

      301.
      Another unhappy backer here!

      @Bonaverde: First we can read about $8-$10 a pound green beans (which would be a very huge step for the farmers) ... now there you wrote in the FAQ $11-$14...
      How much is this growing when you ship our Packard Bell?

      Wow, if the FAQ is saying the cost is between a pound for green beans now that is even more of a rip off than the

    27. Tony Godfrey on September 16, 2014

      @Creator

      Thank you for continuing ad hominems instead of actually being transparent until we force you to. It's a wonderful business model to decline to provide all the details in public, but to publicly ridicule your already-paying customers. I have no doubt that Bonaverde will turn a massive profit and make good on its promise to refund the 300-and-growing dissatisfied backers.

    28. Bonaverde Coffee Changers Creator on September 16, 2014

      Hey Jens! Oh, this sounds horrible but your conclusions are fortunately not right otherwise I would resign this minute :) I will write you a clarification on this shortly! *pb

      @Tony: Thank you for your continuous positive and constructive spirit. I do not understand how people can be as negative and pessimistic as you. It's really sad.

    29. Tony Godfrey on September 16, 2014

      *Jens.

      Bloody autocorrect

    30. Tony Godfrey on September 16, 2014

      Jeans is on to something big.

      I posted his find on their Facebook timeline.

      They deleted my post and I seem to have been blocked from posting on their page.

      As many people as possible need to post this on their Facebook page. How could they use that physical mock-up in 2013 as an example of the finalized design, then say only later they realized the machine would be too big, and use the exact same mock-up to show that it's too big?

      Please, everyone post on their Facebook with links to the URLs of Update 8 and Update 36.

    31. Missing avatar

      Benjamin Kober on September 16, 2014

      Great find Jens.
      BV can you please respond to the issues raised? It seems pretty obvious that you are not telling is the completely truth... Again.
      I would also like to read some comments from BV here again - seems like you're only servicing Facebook at the moment...

    32. Tony Godfrey on September 16, 2014

      Wait. So the very same physical model they built and showed here in Update 36 to prove the old design impossible because of its size and material...is the exact same physical mock-up they showed us pictures of in Update 8 to show the "finalized" design and lure more backers and funds.

      This is intentional fraud. Fraud is both a crime and a tort, with criminal and civil penalties, in almost every jurisdiction.

    33. Missing avatar

      Jens on September 16, 2014

      Re: old design

      Well, update #8 that has been published after the design prototype has been finished, sounded a lot more optimistic than the text above: "we're happy to present you the a sneak peek on what the machine is going to look like in real life." [1] This was on Nov 29th. The Kickstarter campaign was still running at that time.
      On Dec 2nd, I wrote a message to BV pointing out that there might be an error with the proportions, because the jug could never hold 1.2 litres if they were right.

      So... @Bonaverde, please correct me if my conclusion is wrong: it sounds like you are saying that you already knew that the design would be impossible to build while the campaign was running (and even deliberately misled people with the optimistic update about the design protoype)? And then started an Indiegogo campaign without letting anyone know that the design won't be possible? And then started a seedmatch campaign?

      Wow.

      [1] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jimguldi/worlds-first-roast-grind-brew-coffee-machine/posts/678693

    34. Missing avatar

      James F Nykanen on September 15, 2014

      List of Backers who have expressed displeasure/unhappiness with the direction BV has taken with the operability of their coffee machine or have actually already requested a full refund of their money. There are over 300 unsatisfied Backers on the list and it continues to grow as more Backers become aware of the unilateral decisions made by BV in this project. If Backers want their names added to or removed from this list, please communicate via email to jnykanen@msn.com. I assure you that I will respond with definitive action unlike the BV gang.
      2014: 3/23 Lost Doctor; 3/27 Jeffrey Price; 4/01 Casey Wiesel; 6/05 Adam Stone; 7/31 Nigel J; Fearghas McKay; Alexey Nazarov; Ki Patoki; 8/01 Mark Lenssen; 8/02 rockfulam; J. B.; Tony Godfrey; Bob Frazer; 8/03 Eero Rajala; 8/04 Gundeep Sahni; Benjamin Kohn; Benjamin Kober; 8/05 Christian Seth Christensen; Kresten Helstrup; Bart Vilain; Dan Pearce; Tony Godfrey; Roman Moritz; 8/06 Steve Madley; Chris G; Bruno de Camarga; Second Guess; Daniel Ahmoye; Matthias; Matthew Sarracco; Armando Zaron Vargas; Nick szluk; Arnoud Bijvoet; 8/07 Ingo Neumann; Dale Rorabaugh; Gary Reggio; Chris Parkinson; Anssi Turunen; Michael DuVernois; Matt Ellis; David Seid; Neil Goodman; Aye Aye; Geoffrey McCaleb; Maziar Zumani; Milos Vajdic; R. L. DeBoer; 8/08 Sune Posselt; Steen Kressner; Oliver Schmidt 8/09 Rashmin Perla; 8/10 Tim Nelson; 8/11 Backer 14; 8/13 Kevin Reierson; 8/14 Jeremy Willson; Michael Karlsson; Todd; Garry Reggio; Reinoud; 8/15 WA; J.W.; 8/16 jason; 8/18 Torwag; Andrew R; 8/19 Trev Davies; 8/20 Joseph Choa; Kevin I; 8/21 Rob Goodwin; Minh Hoang; Richard Muhlberg; Brady; Candy Lee; Lex Harive; Matt Robinson; 8/22 Zimmerman; Jonathan; 8/23 Andrei Florescu; Patrick Gröβ; 8/25 Anthony; 8/26 Jens; Harvey kanter; 8/27 Matthew Sarracco; 8/29 Michael Czerny; Joel Wheat; Mark Ponikvar; Daryl Low; Corey Falgout; Steven Tran; Joe Powell; Philip Garman; Michael Salter; Will Mazar; Barney; John Newcom; Scott Marshall; John Schmidt; Jan Hendrik Schreier; Kasper Kristensen; Clive Marriott; Xander Hoose; Chee Lup Wan; Timur Pulathaneli; Gary Tong; Volker Wegert; Chow Chung Kam; Curt Larson; Daniel; Brian Wiklem; Steven Tran; Daniel Ahmoye; Jim Nixon; Rob McClure; F1 Help; Helge Jandal; Alan Hinman; John Schmidt; Joe Lau; David Lau; Ryan Dolan; Chris Rogers; Arthur Jacobson; Matt Robinson; Mathias Widtshiold; Dusty Tillery; Peter M; Craig; Niclas Andersson; Adorn; Dave Huang: 8/30 mike; Pat harris; Alice Yang; Anders Lindvall; Weston Schott; Neil Goodwin; john turner; Chris P; Sherman; Thorsten Brandt; Tor; 8/31 Paul Rimba; denis; Henrick Norberg; Michael Holaschke; 9/01 Anton C; Ryan Dolan; Chin Yoong Chai; Andrew R; J. B.; 9/02 Ricky Waring; Arthur Jacobson; Brendan; Markus Juiati; Ryan Fung; 9/03 Choongkoon lee; Don Cameron; James Bendos; Ryan R; C hristoph N; Michael Fritz-Dengel; 9/04 Betsy Lipes; Dennis Oldenberg; Niclas Andersson; Radek Mos; Milos Vajdic; Jeff Stucker; Sean Wormsbecker; 9/05 Sven Haude; Beth Cowgill; 9/08 Tobias Müller; Steven Apostolou; 9/09 Don Cameron; Keith Crau; 9/10 Arthur So; Stefan; David Lian; 9/12 Alex Zogklin; Patrick Daske; James Tan; Tor Benjamin Johnson; Ian Howell; Francisco Tachen; Laura Fox; Trinity Walser; Ninta Cepeda; Alex Jannetta; Idan Liu; Michael Du Vernois; James Tan; Steve Sicotte; Raj; David Huang; Jonathan Faust; Max Afflerbach; Markus Juiti; 9/13 Kjetil; Ingo Neumann; James F. Nykanen; Second Guess; Keith Kostelecky; Andrei Floresen; Taylor O’Neal; james grafton; 9/14 Tim Nelson; Tim Fensham; scott; 9/15 Ryan Brush; Eric Russo; Almond Joseph Mendoza; Lars

    35. Eric Russo on September 15, 2014

      After several months of reading about the changes being made, I'd like to request a refund as well. This is no longer what was advertised last year, and the RFID chips completely turned me off of the project.

    36. Almond Joseph Mendoza on September 15, 2014

      I want a refund too, too much inconsistency with the mail with you guys and the new faq, its super disappointing :(

    37. Ryan Brush
      Superbacker
      on September 15, 2014

      Count me as another person who wants a refund. I did not back this to create another closed off DRM laden product. We would have bought your beans out of pure goodwill, but removing our ability to make that choice has turned us.

    38. Lars on September 15, 2014

      @james grafton +1

    39. Tim Nelson on September 13, 2014

      I Want a refund, but I doubt bonaverde will give it
      Let's be clear all the changes have been made for profit reasons not the excuses bonaverde have been making
      Also what happens if they simply don't deliver the machine ?

    40. Missing avatar

      James F Nykanen on September 13, 2014

      Greetings Coffee Changers. You have been successful in changing a substantial number of ardent Backers into a geometric number of ex-Backers with complete disdain for your shoddy trickery in developing a product that is so criminally anti-user that your very non-existence is assured. As one of those ardent ex-Backers, you have left me with no alternative but to cancel my pledge and request an immediate return of my funds. Any continued association with your organization would challenge the ability to detect evil and lack of veracity of the coffee changer platform. Consider me gone!

    41. Taylor O'Neal on September 13, 2014

      Re: Single Use Chip

      I have a Nespresso already and I trust that Nestle's club can deliver those capsules at a reasonable premium through retail and 2 day FedEx for decades. That trust in supply chain and customer service excellence does not exist *yet* for a startup (it didn't even exist for Nestle early on and I wouldn't trust the same for other company's foray's in to the same b/c the commitment may not be as strong Starbucky's/Illy, etc.).

      Good green beans are difficult but not impossible to find. The Green Beanery in Toronto is one great spot. I would've loved to pick up some fresh beans from Guatemala there and bring it home to roast, grind and brew in a way that's more easily done encouraging me to do it more frequently.

      That use case and the original design are what drove me to be inspired, to pledge and be excited. Without those I would respectfully decline to continue supporting the project and ask for a refund.

    42. Niclas Andersson on September 13, 2014

      @Bart As far as I know, you can't stop the process at all. When the beans are roasted, it grinds them and brew..

    43. David Seid on September 13, 2014

      Wow, if the FAQ is saying the cost is between $11-$14 a pound for green beans now that is even more of a rip off than the $8-$10 per pound price before. Keep in mind that 1 pound of green beans does not generally yield 1 pound of roasted beans like you buy from your local roaster. I think I read somewhere that the waste will be somewhere around 20+%. As such, these beans are going to be much more expensive on average than fully roasted beans from some of the top micro-roasters out there using the best beans you can buy. Hmm... I wonder where that extra markup is going now that our friends at Bonaverde have excluded all competition...? Alas, the answer is not to the farmers.

    44. james grafton on September 13, 2014

      100% on board with the refund crowd now.

      * Decisions have not been transparent
      * Acting in own commercial interest rather than farmers (when has DRM ever worked?)
      * Not listening to community and only playing lip service

      Most disappointing kickstarter I've ever backed.

    45. Missing avatar

      Volker Wegert on September 13, 2014

      @Patrick Größ You're probably right. Reminds me of something ... http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/…

    46. Missing avatar

      Patrick Größ on September 13, 2014

      @Bart It's useless. They can't stand the truth so they are no longer reading our comments.

    47. Missing avatar

      Bart Vilain on September 13, 2014

      1. Is it still an option, to receive the first generation and get the 2nd generation with a serious discount / at production cost, like mentioned in one of the updates?

      2. Will I be able to take the roasted coffee out before the grinding? Or is that only possible after the grinding?

    48. Brendan on September 13, 2014

      Please. Stop lying and admit the chip exists to allow BV to become another nestle.

      It has nothing to do with empowering farmers, and everything to do with empowering your bottom line.

      Arrogant, self-centered egotistical wasteful garbage. NFC is entirely designed to be reusable. Less waste do to a single device that can be used endlessly.

      But no. Can't have that. Well good luck when it takes just a few weeks/ months for someone to break the chip link and unlock it.

      Such a stupid solution that you persist with and hide behind a convenient excuse.

      What do the farmers think of this trickery? They still so proud? What will they do when they realise they've been had as well.

      Truely disappointed.

    49. Christian Leth Christensen on September 13, 2014

      Since I seem stuck with this machine, or at least ar not willing to give half my money to Bonaverde for nothing, or wait for the potential situation that BV survive untill they make a profit I would like to ask the following questions about the machine I'm getting not covered in the FAQ. I have asked them a few times before with no luck.

      Should be easy ones as they are very specific to the machine.

      1) what is the machine weight?
      2) what is the brewing temperature in the new model?
      3) is the grinder still made in a high quality ceramic?

    50. Christian Leth Christensen on September 13, 2014

      It's absurdly disappointing that there have been zero willingness to listen to their community and pre-order buyers that were supposed to be the support for their business - good luck with that!! At least now it's nailed down completely that there is no changing anything, no matter how much communication there have been faked on the matter. Kinda reminds of an earlier comment I made about their Seedmatch business plan and financial situation, can't really see this company making it to generation 2 unless some magic investment comes in.

      On that regard: I suggest anyone who is unhappy stop giving suggestions about what machine they would actually would have liked, used and purchased as it only helps Bonaverde develope a new machine for free - if they should survive that long...

      WA: For you and any other unhappy backers please email dp_pearce (at) hotmail (dot) com or lethmail (at) gmail (dot) com, and write who you are etc. Absolutly horrendous how this pre-sale have been mismanaged!!