The machine in live and color.
Dear community,
After a 30hrs flight, basically no sleep at all and a long day at the factory, we finally got to hold the machine in our own hands – and drink a wonderful cup of fresh coffee straight out of it. Watching the roasting really felt like being a little kid again, and the relief from tasting the coffee and knowing it was really good equated to a 10 years long vacation.
So here are the most exciting things:
- The roasting chamber can be taken out completely: this makes filling in the beans and cleaning (when necessary) a lot easier!
- Both the roasting and coffee filter chamber can be removed by an elegant push solution that requires no handle.
- The roasting chamber doesn’t fog up at all during the roasting, you can clearly watch the roasting process. And the roasting itself looks a little bit like sci-fi – due to an intelligent circuit control, the heater system is regulating its temperature during the process and thus the illumination inside the chamber changes all the time.
- The coffee jug is a beautiful double-walled glass construction that’s been built from scratch – by the manufacturer that produces Bodum too, btw. It keeps your coffee warm longer and makes it look like it’s floating in the air.
- LED lights at the bottom of the machine indicate the state of the machine: one color for stand-by, another for working – and yet another one if the machine detected a problem.
- Watching the chip technology in action is also impressive: hold the tag in front of the machine, hear a little „beep“ and watch the roasting miracle begin.
- Last but not least: we got to see the boxing in real life and can finally share more than sketches. We will post another in depth insight on the pro’s of the new design. But here you go with images first.
Soooo quite some weight off our shoulders!
However, not all of it of course. Building a machine will hardly ever go as planned, and our case proves this to be the truth: We came to the factory a week later than announced and yet were confronted with flaws in the prototype that should have been fixed already. No major flaws (e.g. the push mechanism for the roasting chamber doesn’t work properly yet, pieces don’t fit together perfectly yet etc.), but they can and probably will endanger our schedule. Instead of pointing fingers, we’re trying to find answers to better understand possible solutions to problems and to fix things asap to make them go more smoothly in the future. So we brought in one more party: the Berkeley Sourcing Group, a sourcing partner to hardware start-ups and established businesses that seek to manufacture in China. They are still analyzing our case – we’re awaiting the outcome asap and will have a better idea then of what these complications will do to our timeline. According to them, we’re much closer to our announced timeline than the majority of their over 600 Kickstarter clients – a maybe cold comfort, but yet the encouragement we needed.
Let’s also talk about the status quo of all stretch goals.
- Adjustable Grinder: integrated. Hidden behind the water tank there’s a little wheel that lets you choose between and experiment with different grinding degrees.
- Timer: the timer is a much-wanted feature and we are eager to implement it. However, integrating a display would make the machine too complex for the first round (though our first prototype even had it integrated), so we are forced to postpone this feature to the 2nd generation – this decision became final as of two days ago. If this is a crucial feature for you, we can offer you to get a machine of the 2nd generation or get the 1st and then receive the 2nd generation at production costs only.
- Different colors: We are still considering different machine colors. Not final yet.
- All Access: Will be made possible through various chips, how exactly remains to be defined.
So while we achieved a major milestone these days, it doesn’t feel like much reason to celebrate. Looking back being wiser now, we acknowledge that in the ecstasy of the Kickstarter campaign we became too high-spirited and promised things that we shouldn’t have – as we couldn’t guarantee their implementation 100% at that point.
That is reason enough for disappointment – but not so for the many quite heavy accusations floating around here implying we were tricking you from the very beginning. It helps to remember that we’re a small team with limited capacities and not a global corporation that’s been developing machines for decades and can afford to burn money without endangering their own existence. We all have our faces out there – so believe us that it’s in our own best interest that this will become a success.
We will answer to all of your questions and doubts, however for the time being in China we will focus on working on the machine, collecting information and further building the relationship with our manufacturers. So for right now we are in China, we’re on the road, most of the time we have a poor internet connection and are mostly connecting through VPN networks to at all access certain sites (e.g. Google). We are not able to react fast, and often times it’s not a quick and easy answer but one that needs to be discussed / thought through first. We’ll be back next week so bear with us.
Roman Moritz on August 21, 2014
@patrick
So today is the Day of the update
Im ready to get Impressed ;)
@todd
Yes you are right with your thoughts about the Design. Although i like the New Design too, it Stays a miracle why Nobody saw that its Not possible to build a machine in that measures. (I mean the Old Prototyp is maybe about 50-60cm and Nobody thought Something like "wait we have to get rid of 20-25 cm of that machine... How?")
But what i meant with my Comment was just we have to Stay fair. Because it Would make a Huge difference if there really had Been a working prototype with the kickstarter Design and they dropped it for the other design.
With the material Problems i do believe patrick. Wood is a Nice material and i believe that they really had no idea its too hard to implement it. But Steal or Aluminium Parts Would have Been great... A 300$ machine Should Look like that and Not cheap but i will Wait until i have it in my Kitchen before i judge about that.
Todd on August 21, 2014
@Dan
Sent you an message.
@Bruno & Roman
Whether or not they had a prototype of the kickstarter design really doesn't matter because it's the design they promised and they didn't add any disclaimer or anything stating that the design could not be achieved (Read the Risks & Challenges section). If anything, the funding page read like they were very confident they could deliver.
It's as Bruno said: "If you have A+B+C+...+X+Y+Z = Project 1, but change A through E, then what you are left with is not Project 1, but Project 2. I did not back Project 2, I backed Project 1."
Design is crucial for a product, and consumers really really care about design. There are many examples - Apple comes to mind.
Think of the ramifications if we accept these types of practices. Using another project as an example, look at the Earin - advertised as the "Worlds Smallest Wireless Earbuds." Midway through, creator decides to scrap the design and add a wire between the earbuds. He could make the same argument Bonaverde is, that it's still the "Worlds Smallest Wireless Earbuds" (Wireless in this category of products is understood to mean no wire between the earbuds and the audio device, just do a search on amazon for wireless bluetooth earbuds).
If we accept this, then it means that the promised design at the funding stage never matters as long as the overall description of the device (Worlds First ______) is accurate. I can't accept this, creators should be held to deliver the promised design or at least not make material changes.
Adam Stone on August 20, 2014
I really do hope I receive the machine in any form as I will be doing this the week I receive it. Believe me I will!! Patrick, please save yourself and jump ship!!! P.S. I nominate you and the entire staff at Bonaverde to do the ALS bucket challenge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch…
Joseph Choo on August 20, 2014
this update is a bit of bummer for me on the new overall design especially on the missing timer. timer together with those stretch goals were the original pull factors that i believe most of us put the pledge for. am concern and worried about where this heading.
i too like to know the options on the generation 2.
btw i have not receive the jude bags or card or whatever thing that most backers get in their comments.
thanks
Keith Kostelecky on August 20, 2014
Patrick, I am looking forward to your Thursday update. I hope you provide additional information on not only Generation 1 but also some advance plans on what Generation 2 will look like, along with an estimated time line for release. Also some details if I elect to wait for Generation 2. Do I get a Generation 2 for same pledge I've already made? It would also be nice to have some estimated pricing for bean packages if we are destined to be locked into BV beans. How many chips come with each 3 kilograms of beans? I realize Generation 2 is only in very early planning stages but offer was made that we could wait for Generation 2 if we wanted to (at least this is my understanding). I would like to be able to make an informed decision on whether to wait or not. I would also appreciate seeing a video of Generation 1 roasting/grinding/brewing a 1/2 pot of coffee and the process to do so. Thanks.
Bruno de Camargo on August 20, 2014
@Roman
I meant a working prototype with the Kickstarter design.
If there was not a working prototype of that, then I can't even remember why I thought there had been.
Also, if there was not a working prototype, I completely apologize to @Patrick for suggesting that it did. My understanding was that it was already there, and that the only thing that would have to be changed would be how to add the paneling.
Nevertheless, the fact that the design went into a drastically different direction still stands true. If the machine sketches were those of the current machine, I would not have backed it. Even without a working prototype of the design, efforts should have been made to preserve parts of it, and the only thing I see that was preserved was the core functionality of the machine. (Which I suppose can be said "is the idea you were supporting". And to which I reply: "I would've waited for a better version.") The directionality of the design is what I take issue with, because it is so drastic from the original mock up.
Once again, I seem to be mistaken about a working prototype, and so I apologize to @Patrick & Bonaverde, but remain steadfast in my belief that efforts should have been made to preserve the look, especially because there was a working prototype and there would have been estimations as to how much bigger the machine would get with the look.
Roman Moritz on August 20, 2014
@bruno de camargo
I Agree with most of your Comment but just a short question about following Part :
"My issue with the project as it stands is that what I backed is no longer a reality. BV had a multigenerational, working, prototype. All of a sudden, even after the BV had gone through several generations of prototypes, it no longer works because the product will be too big, so the look of the product is changed DRASTICALLY. "
What exactly do you mean ? Because the prototype they had is still working. They are using it during the tastings in Berlin. Or do you mean a Working prototype with the kickstarter design? Because i dont think that this ever existed.
@patrick
Thanks for your comments today.
Since we get more information about the machine tomorrow i want to ask you a few Things about your logistics.
First From where do you Ship the coffee ? From Germany ? Or directly from your Farmers? Or from Somewhere Else?
And what will be the shippingcosts, roundabout? I mean internationalshipping could be expensive.
And of Course when do you think will it be possible to Order the coffee? It Would be Bad if bonaverdes coffeestore opens its Gates month After we will get our mashine.
So Looking forward to the update tomorrow
Bruno de Camargo on August 20, 2014
@Michael Fritz-Dengel
I wish you actually read my posts before hurdling accusations my way--especially since I only have like 3, or 4 (ever, not just in this update).
I don't want a refund, I want to know HOW to get the refund that we were told we could get, should it come to that. I have told Patrick repeatedly (email and on here) that as of right now I will wait for Bonaverde to impress.
I'm sorry you don't appreciate us expressing our frustrations. But the best part about that is that I don't get an email every time there is an update, so I assume you don't either. If true, you must be going out of your way to read the posts that are upsetting you; and in an updated fashion apparently because I JUST started really posting with the addition of Patrick.
Anyway, while I don't write any of this in an aggressive (or passive aggressive) so if you find it so, please disregard it as it is not supposed to be laced with any of it.
Dan Pearce on August 20, 2014
@todd and @tony and anyone else who is interested - a few of us are already in contact and have started exploring alternatives for recovery with so far encouraging feedback. Feel free to send me a mail and we can set up a mailing list to keep people informed dp_pearce (at) hotmail (dot) com
Bruno de Camargo on August 20, 2014
@Patrick
I understand your reasoning. Unfortunately, you have failed to understand what MY particular issue is. My issue can only be summarized as the fact that the project, the idea, that I did back no longer exists, and I elaborate below:
I do not wish to control the direction of Bonaverde. I do not WANT to be involved in the day to day operations--I'd have to deal with people like me, and I know its not easy. I know that my role as a backer is simply a backer and not a managing partner.
My issue with the project as it stands is that what I backed is no longer a reality. BV had a multigenerational, working, prototype. All of a sudden, even after the BV had gone through several generations of prototypes, it no longer works because the product will be too big, so the look of the product is changed DRASTICALLY. NONE of the aesthetic features remain. So, as a backer I'm still waiting to be impressed. Lets consider this Change 1.
In addition, the machines are made of plastic, but it is still not possible to make it in another color; although the original designs submitted provided us with multiple options. Change 2.
Then, we get a stretch goal that gets taken away from us, because like the design, it is no longer workable... Okay, no automatic timer then. Change 3.
This is a project that should allow us to use green beans, which at the time we backed the project was not designed to be used only through Bonaverde beans. Now, we need these nice little RFID tags. But alas, the purpose is to "make things easier" for the average user, but also functions to as a DRM lock for BV to force people to use their beans. Change 4.
This is clearly a non-exhaustive list, because I don't want to reproduce what has been already said.
These are just examples to illustrate that my issue is NOT that I think Bonaverde should have consulted us for decision of how to run their company. My issue is that now the project I backed does not exist.
If you have A+B+C+...+X+Y+Z = Project 1, but change A through E, then what you are left with is not Project 1, but Project 2. I did not back Project 2, I backed Project 1.
Sure it was a minor thing here and a minor thing there, but if you add the minor changes up it turns into something else. Okay, sure, the machine will still roast green beans, grind it, and brew it. At its core it is still the same principle, but as it stands if I had seen the current machine in the original pitch, I would not have backed it. If I had known ahead of time that the machine would require RFID tags that can only be acquired through BV, I would not have backed it. The Timer was nice, and I backed it before it was unlocked, but what if I had backed it because of that?
Sure, Bonaverde can run the company however they want, but they promised us a particular project and to the best of their ability they should have tried to produce it. Instead, they are giving us a new project and the response is not at all an apology, but instead "you backed a project, an idea, not a product." The main failure there is that the idea has been changed in a major way through a series of minor changes.
That is the best that I can transcribe my issue with the project. Hopefully that will make sense to you. And as I said in my original e-mail, I totally understand that things are basically concrete now and that there is probably very little you can do at this point.
This entire message is merely to illuminate to you that although you have been doing a fantastic job since coming on, you mistakenly assumed an incorrect belief of where our criticisms and complaints lie (at least mine). Hopefully, this post serves as an illustration of how I arrived at being upset and disappointed in having given BV several hundred dollars.
Todd on August 20, 2014
@Patrick
Thanks for your response. It looks like we're not going to get anywhere with the back-and-forth, so I'll seek other avenues for recourse.
As a summary: They way overpromised on features, design, and production readiness, did not adequately disclose risks & challenges, and completely changed the business model.
My best guess is, they squandered our funds on developing the new business model and RFID system, and didn't have enough to do the funding design.
As a suggestion, perhaps some of us should try to band together rather than approaching this one by one.
@Tony
I'll be in touch later today.
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Creator on August 20, 2014
Hi everybody,
Thank you very much for the last comments. I see that there are actually many people willing people to work with me on a better future. Some are not, but this is okay. I admitted our mistakes and I respect anyone who is unhappy here. I think for now I've answered all questions as good as I can. I will now finish the preparation of the update of tomorrow and will not be able to answer further questions. What you can expect for tomorrow: A lot of material about the machine which will be our generation 1. What you will not get: Information on our generation 2. For gen 2 I'm still taking your ideas, feel free to reach out to me.
Have a nice remaining day,
Patrick
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Creator on August 20, 2014
@Jens: Thank you!
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Creator on August 20, 2014
@Milos: I'm only the COO. If you want to talk to me, you can do that in a respectful tone. I'm happy to take your questions. *pb
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Creator on August 20, 2014
@Roman Moritz: Thank you very much. @Tony: At the moment, we have not setup any ecosystem so that I cannot answer your question. This is kind of obvious. At the moment, we are also thinking about what our future long-term strategy is. Therefore, I cannot answer your question. Additionally, I would like to say that I can still decide on my own which questions I would like to answer and which I do not like too. I am here for a fair dialogue, we both know that this is not your interest. *pb
Tony Godfrey on August 20, 2014
@Roman
I appreciate your scrolling, but I'd like Patrick to answer my question directly, or explain why he's not answering this issue head-on.
I do think that direct answer would be highly constructive and productive for all of us, no matter what it is.
Roman Moritz on August 20, 2014
@tony @trev
Patrick already answered your question in his First Comment (i know its alot of scrolling Now)
" (1) if you wanted to use special beans from a special bean shop in your neighbourhood, Swipe & Brew excludes this option and (2) if you want to try out different roasting styles and customize the roasting process to your own preferences Swipe & Brew excludes this as well. Reading through your comments, I think these are the main restrictions you dislike. I already told you that I like the chip technology and I can confirm that the machines will have it. For me, the question now is how to eliminate the two restrictions (which is good for you) while keeping the Swipe & Brew feature (which is good for the
So yes the Restrictions are there but they will give the kickstarter community a Way Out (Thats how i Understand it if im wrong pls correct me @patrick)
@patrick
What Happened to the "10-addition-roastingprofilechip-Solution"? I thoght that Would be very close to the original concept i think.
Jens on August 20, 2014
@patrick regarding idea and feedback platforms: IdeaTorrent, UseResponse, Uservoice, Get Satisfaction, more to find here: http://alternativeto.net/software/ideatorrent/
Trev Davies on August 20, 2014
I would love to see Tony's question answered. It seems like a very simple yes or no question. Can we use green beans from somewhere other than Bonaverde? I am also the only person in my house that drinks coffee, so if my choices are half or full packet of Bonaverde beans, why did I buy an 'all access' coffee machine?
Milos Vajdic on August 20, 2014
The new CEO is dodging all the uncomfortable questions and playing the "nice" card.
I want my refund, this project was misrepresented, I don't want to talk I want my money back.
You turned people who gave you a chance into future slaves with your RFIDs. shame on you!
Tony Godfrey on August 20, 2014
@patrick
"Is the ecosystem you have set up at Bonaverde a closed one, meaning it is the intent or design of Bonaverde to lock all purchasers of the machine in to buying and using green beans from only Bonaverde's market?"
This question is not open and constructive? This is not a question that can be answered? I'm not understanding how this question does not fit in to the open, transparent, and constructive communication you came here trying to create.
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Creator on August 20, 2014
@Tony: I've said what I wanted to say to your comments. I think you can answer your questions by reading my comments below. I do not think our dialogue is moving forward here. But: I'm always open to constructive feedback in the way of @Torwag, @Jens and @Christian. Sorry for that, but I do not feel that our conversation is getting somewhere at the moment. *pb
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Creator on August 20, 2014
@Kevin I: Thanks for your comment. I respect your opinion. I do what I can but tried to first listen to the opinion here before I take action. I think this makes most sense at the moment. *pb
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Creator on August 20, 2014
@Torwag, Jens and Christian: Thank you for your constructive feedback. I really appreciate this kind of comments. I think it's time for me now to step a little bit back here and take some time to come up with concrete plans for the future product development. Regarding the communication channel Torwag mentioned, I absolutely agree that these comments here are not really made for this kind of interaction. I actually just talked to a contractor this morning to build an appropriate platform for us. Something like http://mystarbucksidea.force.com (only to give you a broad direction), "My Bonaverde", "Bonaverde Idea Portal" or however we will call it. Do you know other platforms like that, which we could use as best practice? *pb
Tony Godfrey on August 20, 2014
@Patrick
So...not a single one of my questions is being answered?
I'm still not even sure that this closed ecosystem I'm worried about exists; it's only been parsed together and assumed from different disparate pieces of information. You can't even confirm what all this is going to look like now? That seems in pretty serious conflict with your focus on open and transparent communication at this juncture.
It seems you're more than happy to use "farmers become faces" as a mantra to sell machines...but after that I'm still not clear what happens.
You sell the machines. And you're focusing any small answers you give here on the machine.
But what happens after the machine is sold? There's a lot of time after that that you haven't addressed, that is where my lack of understanding/knowledge/information/trust lies. So to be clear...those aren't answers we're getting now, or in the Thursday update? So, all I have to go off of is a Seedmatch answer that says that your profit will be based on the continued sale of green beans. Give me a +1 or something if the closed ecosystem monopoly we're worried about is indeed the implication of that answer.
I think enough discussion has been done below about "influence of business model," which I agree is a wholly unrealistic expectation for this model.
But even taking this as a pure product pre-order, an understanding of that business model to begin with is fundamental to me making an informed decision, or it's at best misleading.
Take, for example, your competitor and apparent business model twin: Nespresso. They begin like you do (for this hypothetical), and pitch their one-button coffee machine. "You can have your coffee in minutes, one press of a button!" Awesome! I like coffee! I have lots of it in my home, I have local suppliers I get it from I've built relationships with...how incredible would it be to be able to use it with just the touch of a button!
Then I get my machine...and it's a closed ecosystem. I can use none of the coffee I have or can get from my community-members.
That's very different.
So yes, I "just do different write-ups of all the same complaints of a part of the project that is not even the machine," because this is the part of the machine that truly matters. This is the part of the machine that empowers or enslaves farmers. This is the part of the machine we will be interacting with every time we pull out our wallets to use it. This is the part of the machine that actually gets me coffee in my mug because without it, I can swipe a chip all day but there is no brew.
This is the part of the machine that everyone has been silent on, and has weaseled away from answering point blank, and it's time there was an answer:
*Is the market closed? What goes in the machine and from where can that come from?*
Kevin I on August 20, 2014
@Patrick; Thank you for your candid look at Kickstarter supporters. Its nice to know that whatever "honest" vision a company has in the moment to acquire funds needed is fine, then they can suddenly switch gears and do what they will with the supporters funds. If that turns out to be the case then Kickstarter and other crowd sourcing sites are in for a major decline.
All I'm hearing from you is a lot of apologizing but not a whole lot of substance other than its really awesome (which is meaningless). You guys at BV are going to do what your going to do. Seems like you are on here to keep as many of us as you can - which I can appreciate. But like Dan, Tony, Christian and others we are not going to see eye to eye. The vision BV started with - the business model - is distinctly different now and something I never would have signed on for. I wish you all the best in this but want no part of it.
Christian Leth Christensen on August 20, 2014
@Torwag +1, the least of their concerns should be others entering the green bean market, but rather make it attractive for consumers not leaving for other players if succesfull - and locking in the system will in no way improve the situation for neither, consumers, farmers or BV! If you are set on rfid, and not say BT that would be a much better solution as suggested earlier. BT and an app to do settings as you please and make a QR code or barcode on the bag instead. Good for the environment, good for the UX. At the very least keep it open for all by allow us to tinker with it and keep the rfid as the easy UX solution for people wanting that. Why is it an either or?
Re: the transport, it probably won't affect much on the greeness of it, as ships and plains are setting off anyways, and in total it won't make to much of a difference from my experience with green procurement. It's more theoritical that it's worse for the co2 than it is in practical terms. Might be different with coffee market, I can't really say 100% in that area. But the coffee is being transported, and packaged no matter if you buy it green from BV or packaged in the supermarket or local coffee shop.
Jens on August 20, 2014
@Patrick regarding "Imagine what happens if our machine is a success and a big company starts selling green beans to a much cheaper price in the supermarket?"
Once again, I invite everyone to also imagine what happens if the machine is a success and a big company buys out Bonaverde including its green beans sales platform.
Apart from that: of course there are people that would go for discount coffee beans. But I am pretty sure that anyway not a single one of them would buy the machine in the first place as long as it is locked into a single non-discount platform.
So, with locking, those people would just drink the same stuff as they do now, nothing gained for the farmers *and* for Bonaverde.
Without locking, you have at least sold a machine to them and give them *the possibility* to try and buy fair beans from your platform. Even if they buy just 10% of their coffee there, it is still better than 0%, no?
Torwag on August 20, 2014
1) Adding a timer is not to late... see my latest post and the comment of Kresten Helstrup. It would be a 1-2 day programming job, resulting in 30% more happiness already. Brewing amount could work quite similar.
2) Keep the RFID for easy usage! However, open the device for other beans as well and don't frighten green beans in supermarkets. Do you really believe one of the big companies is going to offer green beans for a market of a few thousand machines?
As I said, if the market share gets big enough, those giants will get an own machine quicker then you can improve to generation 2. If not them, you will get cheap copies from China (did you think about that when you moved to Chinese manufactures). Thus, trying to protect your business with the help of the DRM like RFID does not help you anyhow but only hurts you. The only way you can success is to make Bonaverde the Amazon of green coffee beans. A place both farmers and consumers love and where they can meet to trade. Which is so well functional and so much liked by all, that all of us simply do no want to go to the supermarket, even if green beans are cheaper there.
Keep the RFID and make it a comfort function, a premium user scenario, which, and this is fair, only work with beans bought via you. Most people even the tinkerers will love it because of the easy usage scenario. People who once tasted well roasted coffee by the swipe and brew technology and who several times failed to get the same from there own locally resourced beans and manual settings, easily will go to get your beans for the day to day usage and only tinker with own beans and settings if there is enough time. How often do you think that will happen?
However, do not lock us and farmers into it. Again, this will not protect you from anything but just turn potential customers away.
As for the green aspect, I can understand the concerns raised by others however, I want to put this into retrospective. You are going to get a machine for which you order ultra small amounts of green coffee beans. Packaging and transport of those is a much bigger concern rather then the little RFID tag, which consist of an very thin film of copper and a very tiny (sand corn size) silicon chip. But yes they would have been greener solutions like bar or QR codes.
To make the tinkerers among us more happy consider to add some technical aspects in your update as well. Which RFID system your are going to use exactly, any chance to know which microcontroller you use?
Finally a personal remark to Patrick: You should try to get something online which allows us easier to follow you and you an easier communication with us. Otherwise, you will end up in a few weeks with a RSI (repetitive strain injurie) ;) Kickstarter comments are not exactly up for that task. Adopt something from the OS world, a bug ticket system, forum, wiki, etc.
Thorsten Brandt on August 20, 2014
Michael +1
Michael Fritz-Dengel on August 20, 2014
I don't have the time to write something longer at the moment but this is bugging me so much: Could you ALL bitty bitty please take it down a notch... Even the nicer posts seem at least passive aggressive. Even now I am getting aggressive...
For Tony, Dan and Bruno: You are not interested in anything but a full refund NOW. So write it like that and stop that legal mumbo jumbo. I suggest a piggy bank for your refund as I now am almost willing to give money to get rid of unconstructive comments like yours. You just do different write-ups of all the same complaints of a part of the project that is not even the machine.
I will rather write more and kinder later but right now I am fed up wasting important time of my life reading stuff that does not get us any closer to a success of the project.
Roman Moritz on August 20, 2014
@patrick
Sry my words werent meant to offend you. And i did definetly Not mean bonaverde will fail. As i Wrote i still like the idea and the project.
And i believe you when you say the 1. gen machine is amazing. But its still Not the machine some (maybe Many) of us thought we will get. And i only Meant this part of the kickstartercrowd, you might Not win back or even lost already, Not the whole crowd.
So please dont get me Wrong.
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Creator on August 20, 2014
@Christian and @Dan: Fine with me, at least we all have shared our opinions and I accept that you have different opinions than I do. *pb
Dan Pearce on August 20, 2014
Morning Patrick. Thanks for your reply. A bit of a shame we're not on the same page but its not exactly unexpected. I understand exactly what my position is in this project and I appreciate yours. I have absolutely no desire to influence the the future business strategy of Bonaverde. Quite the opposite. I want nothing whatsoever to do with them as quickly as I can get a reasonable way out. We're pursuing other avenues because we genuinely believe there is validity in the argument that the project was misrepresented. And we're not happy with the current proposals from Bonaverde to rectify the situation. It leaves little choice unless there is some reconsideration on Bonaverde's side. Which it seems clear there will not be. C'est la vie.
Christian Leth Christensen on August 20, 2014
I read your reasoning, and while easy to understand, it's got very little to do with empowerment in a (sustainable) development perspective - hence my suggestion. Locking farmers in to a closed eco-system and monopoly portal is very close to the opposite of empowerment, and honestly I'm quite sad if you (Hans & Co.) have sold the idea to farmers that they are empowered by any meaning of the term by entering this business model.
I might be wrong about my current pessimism on the future of the company, and hopefully for you I am, as I got nothing against you as a person (quite the opposite for engaging; albeit still waiting for the real meeting halfway dialoge)
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Creator on August 20, 2014
@Christian Leth Christensen: I am very optimistic that Bonaverde will be a huge success! I totally believe in it and I will prove you wrong. Thanks for the education advice, maybe you read my reasoning again, I honestly think it is not too hard to understand. I think we have shared our opinions here. I take your input with me. *pb
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Creator on August 20, 2014
@Roman Moritz: I think we have discussed now more or less everything. I am honestly not too pessimistic with the future of Bonaverde - otherwise I would not have joined them. I absolutely believe in the concept and I guarantee you that the machine in generation 1 will already be amazing. Of course, there are several features (adjustable brewing sizes, adjustable roasting process, timer) which are not integrated and I understand that you are unhappy with this but there is still the world's first roast grind brew machine and I am confident that we will have success with it. *pb
Christian Leth Christensen on August 20, 2014
@Roman: And that would be assuming that BV survives as a company untill the 2nd generation as well, so that's a big leap of faith - not something I'm certain I have right now.
@Patrick: you really really need to educate yourself on empowerment, that is really all I can say on that part; it's not in line with your business model at all. Secondly, there is still an environemtal issue towards the (BV words) "conscious consumer" that is the target. I honestly think you are sawing your own branch quickly by pushing through and not engaging with your so far only consumers as you even suggest yourself. Not just about what I just said, but also about functionality in almost all asepcts of the machine. As Roman said: The gift nobody really wanted...
Roman Moritz on August 20, 2014
@patrick
I totally Agree with christians last comment. The Problem is that your team changed all those things and Talked to us afterwards.
You say the main reason to implement the RFID-technogie was to make it easier to use?
Sounds like a Gift that just a few of us really wants. Now its too Late To get rid of that function.
You Said You want to win us back and to make this project "ours" again. I dont think that will really happen. In your last post you wrote we can not expect Huge changes but:
-get the ability to set the amount of coffee to brew
-get the ability to set all parameters if the roasting process
-get a timer
Etc.
That are Huge changes to be done to get the part of the crowd back that cant live with all the changes.
To Wait for the 2. gen might be a good solution for us Beta testers since we can use the betamachine until Then but for the rest it might be to Long to Wait until end of 2015 Start of 2016.
I still love the idea behind the machine and your project. Im still Looking forward for the betatestphase but i think bonaverde already lost a Lot backers.
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Creator on August 20, 2014
@Christian Leth Christensen: Thank you for your honest words. Your arguments are absolutely fair and I would like to continue this discussion within the following weeks. For generation 1, not so much will be changed I can already announce this. But for generation 2 your comments are more than welcome. I told you that I can assure you that nobody had the RFID solution in mind at the beginning. If you do not believe me, you know that I cannot help you in this issue then.
I would like to already comment on one issue: Our model is empowering the farmers and they absolutely love it. With our model they can reach out directly to the customer, differentiate themselves and set their own price. This is a major achievement. This happens through our platform. Locking in the customers there actually supports them even more! Imagine what happens if our machine is a success and a big company starts selling green beans to a much cheaper price in the supermarket? Our farmers would have a major problem and hardly sell any beans anymore. The whole vision of this project would be gone. Therefore the Swipe & Brew Technology is a major and necessary support FOR the farmers and NOT the opposite! *pb
Christian Leth Christensen on August 20, 2014
Btw. just to clarify, I havn't decided to go through with testing my EU-protected consumer rights yet, I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt towards functionality and potentially meeting the backers halfway - and at least give a plausible explanation on how the (new??) business model is in line with the pitch of empowering and being green and conscious (also sold on SM btw!). I refer to Tony's posts as they are much more elaborate on that.
Christian Leth Christensen on August 20, 2014
@Patrick, thank you for you forthcoming and straight answer. To answer: I have no such illutions as to me being able to dictate your business strategy, and at best I had the hope that you would listen to your first customers - thank you for clarifying that I was particularly optimistic on that part. Fortunatly I'm not an investor as you say, and I won't have to deal with the consequences of BV sawing off their own branch as we speak. If the Seedmatch pitch is correct and money are to be made of a lock-in system that very few seems to want to be a part of, then I'm glad I'm not a part of that investment group.
On the second part, there have been numerous suggestions as to how you can meet the backers somewhere else, where UX is in line with an open system that is not an environmental problem and where you actually uphold your end of the bargain and empower the farmers. All you are doing now is transfering the dependence on one Western company to another - hardly empowering in any sense of the meaning. I would actually look forward to you guys coming back with counter suggestions, instead we get the 'it's to far in the process' and 'it's our choice' response, which in no way agrees with your own suggestion of discussing the product. There are plenty of suggestions below, I encourage you to go through them and actually discuss them with us. Moreover it's a development proces, so there is plenty of chances for you guys to postpone production and actually keeping a consumer base to support your company in the future. From the number of employees and the financial statement on Seedmatch divided alone and you perhaps have the financial means to keep going for a bit less than a year without layoffs etc. That's hardly comforting that you are then alienating a large parter of your consumer base in the self stated 'Rokafeller model'.
I refuse to believe that a lock-in model was not considered from the start, and it was made up between the IGG funding ended and the update about the RFID update conviently given after the Seedmatch startup. Either greed got the best of the team within 3-months and everything was changed, or we were deliberatly withheld information about how this machine were actually going to function in terms of the coffee market.
And to clarify I'm not looking at legal action, nor am I really interested in it, I would much rather you guys started meeting us halfway instead of keep fluffing out the 'we want you back' and in reality offering very little if nothing to the concerned backers in terms of actual dialogue. I am likely however willing to test my right of return on this as it looks now. And in that respect I'm really happy that you yourself have confirmed that I'm not to be seen as an investor as it helps my case a lot.
I hope you guys come back to the table as propose by yourself rather than keep the empty promises flying around. I hope you realize that for a dialoge and development to happen, it has to work two ways.
Sorry to keep you occupied for so long!
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Creator on August 20, 2014
@Arthur Jacobson: I really appreciate your critical questioning. I will try to already implement several reasons in the update tomorrow. You are totally right, that there needs to be more information on the beta testing. I do not want to set too high expectations, it is not possible to implement bigger changes between beta testing and general rollout of gen 1. I will get back to you with more information on that! *pb
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Creator on August 20, 2014
@Tony, Christian, Dan and Bruno: I have read your comments and I have decided to not go into detail rather than give you my honest opinion on the general situation.
First, I acknowledge that there was a bad communication from BV to you backers. I apologise for that. I also wished there was more interaction when it comes to product changes. I already told you that and I hope you believe me when I say this.
Second, I initially thought, well, you guys pledged some money on a project. This project now deviates from its plan so that there is a potential that it is reasonable to assume you can request a refund and consider legal action. I have thought this through, gathered information about the status of a kickstarter project, went through our initial pitch. My conclusion is that you are completely on the wrong track.
This is why:
You as a backer, you are a supporter who pledged money to realise a project and you are entitled to get the reward offered in the package you pledged for. But do you honestly think that with your pledge you have a say in the future business strategy of the company? I hardly know any startup who did not change its strategy on the way. And do you really think for each change the company has to ask every backer for permission? No smart entrepreneur would ever run a kickstarter project then. This would be a gigantic strategy lock-in with 0 flexibility and would result in the death of most kickstarter startups. I mean, let's face it: You are not even an investor. But even an investor with a minority share does not have the power to change the business strategy of a company if the majority wants to act in a specific way. Therefore, I honestly tell you that you have a misconception of your role as a kickstarter backer. If you want to have a say in a company and shape its strategy I encourage you to found your own startup. Pledging a relatively small amount of money you can not honestly believe that you can prevent a startup now from choosing the path it wants to follow.
The initial pitch of Bonaverde was honest. This was the plan the company wanted to realise. They did their best to do it but they were not able to. It is an illusion that this massive disruptive business model can be easily realised, a completely new machine can be easily developed without any change of the initial plan. Yes, they made things worse with their communication. BUT: I encourage you to sit with me on the table and talk about solutions here. You as a backer and supporter should play a key role in further product development, I acknowledge that and I would actually love that. Only with your participation we will be able to innovate and create amazing products in the future. I already talked about an app and I am almost sure that we will develop it with the help of several backers who already contacted me and gave me absolutely brilliant input. If you are upset now and want to turn your back on Bonaverde, I accept that. But I can promise you, you are missing a lot of changes to our product, changes to our business model, changes to the coffee market. But if you want to be part of the dialogue about these changes, you are more than welcome. *pb
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Creator on August 20, 2014
@Allistair Riddell: Thank you for your comments and ideas. We appreciate it and take it into account for our further product development. I already announced that we are working on an idea portal and where we can enable an open discussion on further features and add-ons. Regarding the beta testing there is more information to come. Your feedback from this will definitely play a key role in further developing the product. *pb
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Creator on August 20, 2014
@Todd: Thanks for your patience. Here are my answers.
a) This is true. Nobody at Bonaverde had the idea to implement this chip technology at the beginning. This was a necessary adjustment to improve user experience which was taken several months later than the kickstarter campaign started.
b) This was the belief at that time and an honest statement. Engineers experienced that the design could not be build at a later stage.
c) Another true statement at that point of time.
d) Again, this was absolutely honest and true.
e) True again. These prototypes did not include the crowd design. You could have seen the Korean prototypes in pictures. This was not misleading from my point of view.
f) Again, a true statement. That the timeline can be changed is pretty obvious. We are still a way closer to the initial one than the average kickstarter project.
g) Again, I do not see a problem with this. We had a running prototype of a roast-grind-brew coffee machine.
2) See my comment to a.
3) This is true.
I conducted several interviews yesterday to assure myself that there was no lie and no over-optimistic statement. I can assure you that all initial statements have been honest. Changes to the product and the general concept only were made at later stages.
You know my opinion: I wished there was a better communication around that and I understand if you are unhappy that there was not. Still, I proved these statements and I can look into the mirror when telling you this.
*pb
Tony Godfrey on August 20, 2014
@bruno
I'm a law student too, and these legal concepts are tough enough to grasp without much practical experience...add in the extremely novel relationships between parties and the goods/interests being transacted and, well...this would be a great final exam hypothetical.
I don't believe Kickstarter would have to be a party to suit (they'd obviously have to shoulder some discovery costs), and I don't think that Bonaverde would have to put the machines in the US in the "stream of commerce" sense that you seem to be getting at. This is where it's important to note that Kickstarter is not a traditional market for a product, but has a lot of investment aspects to it as well.
If you'd like to discuss this a little more (I find it very interesting at the very least), my email is tony [dot] godfrey [at] me [dot] com
There was a case filed in May of this year by the Attorney General in Washington that actually dealt with far fewer backers, orders of power less money, and much fewer changes to the end project than we have here. I can send you the case number, etc. if you shoot me an email.
Dan Pearce on August 20, 2014
@bruno - I think Kickstarter are removed from liability because they request that all who use the site are factual. Its between those in the community who want to take it further and Bonaverde. I'm looking into this as well so message me if you want. Email in messages below
Alistair Riddell on August 19, 2014
Looking forward to the Thursday update but seems from what I read that the purpose of what I signed up for being a beta backer and getting the promised input into the final design is also not going to happen, given it sounds like it is all finalised and no changes are now possible. Feel quite let down at this, was really looking forward to being first group when it was only 100 of us (before diluted to 200, and then, and then.......) and from at that point being involved with what sounded like a truly crowd engaged project, not just crowd funded. I'd be interested to hear what level of interaction us in the beta group should now expect, and how much scope there still is for change before the machine rolls out further?
The RFID chips I probably differ from most in that I think will be quite a slick solution in use rather than having menus and buttons on the machine, but that only works for me if the previous promise of we kickstarter backers getting a set of reusable never-expiring chip cards is honoured.
I'm personally not an advanced coffee drinker, and am the only one who drinks coffee in my household on a regular basis so looked at backing this originally as a great way to ditch the waste and supply chain inherent to my current Nespresso machine. Being tied into a BV market to buy the coffee I don't mind as I don't have another source of green beans so the convenience of ordering is fine for me, but the waste is going to be huge if I can't roast enough for just my 2 cup morning jumpstart at any given time so chances are it will only get used rarely rather than as my primary machine if that ended up being the case.
In that scenario I can see the BV machine being something that sits in the corner of my kitchen, being used only when we have enough friends over to justify making a larger quantity, and I'll very likely buy much less coffee from the BV market as a result. As such, if many are like me then bean sales could suffer as a result of this approach in the long term as I don't see once all the kickstarter etc dust has settled that many people would buy a machine where they'd have to throw coffee away as well as chips if they can't make just a small amount. Byebye the entire young single professional coffee drinker market who wants a fresh coffee fix each morning.
It's an interesting situation, as a business owner I can definitely appreciate the attraction to BV of the ongoing coffee sales revenue stream being where the real drive is, and to ensure that they obviously need to have either a price/availability/convenience driver to get people down that road - or some form of proprietary lock-in. I just question the logic of striving for this and going with the lock-in route in the first launch before any level of market penetration to sell people on the benefits of freshly roasted vs capsule/ready packaged convenience has been achieved.
Taking on the might of Nespresso etc is going to be no easy task, especially with unnecessary limitations to the machine reducing its convenience and no huge price benefit being apparent. Think I will likely be continuing with pods for my regular drinking coffee and only keeping maybe 1 or 2 bags of BV beans around for special occasions. If I was buying all over again in an open market situation then the limitations would likely have knocked the BV out of purchasing consideration for me knowing what we know now.
However, this all being said I find myself still actively looking forward to the arrival of my beta machine to see how it all comes together in practise. If it arrives and I do have the option of buying a big bag of BV green beans, putting enough for 2 cups in, swiping a card across the front and enjoying the roasting aroma before leaving the house in the morning then I don't see why I would ever buy coffee for home from anywhere other than BV again.
Bruno de Camargo on August 19, 2014
@Patrick: You have certainly been busy today. Thank you for the attention that you have given us.
Unfortunately, the Bonaverde team has just been too disorganized and selfish so far and has put you in an awkward position.
First we are basically told that if we don't like the first generation we can wait for the second, basically displacing the value of our funding. And now we are told that there is no estimated time frame for this second generation. So basically we should just wait around for however long the Bonaverde team wants to keep feeding us empty words.
@Tony Godfrey: There are some options. I will preface this by stating clearly that none of what I write should be considered legal advice--it is not. I will have a better perspective over the weekend, after I sit down with my best friend's dad who specializes in product liabilities and fraudulent misrepresentation. I can say with almost certainty though that it would require a lawyer wanting to take this Pro Bono and drag in KickStarter as they are the US entity for accountability. The next step would be finding a backer in a suitable jurisdiction that is willing to go through with it. Because Bonaverde has almost certainly taken all the money received from this project out of the country by now, any judgment levied against them would be uncollectable until they actually start selling the machines in the US. None of this is official as I am only a law student and am uncertain until I talk to my friend's dad. Also, as I have stated above, none of what I've said should be considered legal advice by any person in any jurisdiction.