An dieser Stelle kannst du dem Projektgründer gutes Gelingen wünschen, Fragen stellen und dich mit anderen Unterstützern austauschen. Wir bitten darum, den Austausch stets respektvoll und höflich zu halten! Danke!
@Mike: Yes, the thing about the hatch and the grinder was lost in translation:
Hans wrote that the hatch problem led to a grinder blockage and that the only solution - apart from fixing the hatch - was to do a cleaning of the grinder, and that it hardly can be called a repair. Anyway he remarks, that this is no task for the average user but an exchange everytime this happens, though very seldom, would be too expensive.
To sum it up: The hatch was something that had to be fixed cause to fix the grinder afterwards is not acceptable.
The translation "darf nicht passieren" to "may not occur" is a bit weak. It means more that an error like this with 200 beta-machines out would have been a real pain in the a... for time and budget of the project.
So it should have been "must not".
Hi Bob-
Hans is headed to visit our partners at Homezest this week. We should have more details for you then. At the moment, the plan has life testing scheduled for mid-December.
We'd love to show you the machine in action. We're thinking that Facebook Live would be the ideal forum - absolutely guaranteed to be unedited. Are you all on Facebook to be able to access a live cast of the machine brewing coffee, start-to-finish?
By the way folks, interesting information from Seedmatch.de from our friend Hans and Company (note, not from "Jessie"). It is dated 10/28/2016.
I used Google for the translation so there are issues with words and sentences though.
The below message comments on the "grinder cleaner" rather than the hatch as the cause of failures in the machine. Maybe it was lost in translation.
Bonaverde Alpha Test completed successfully
"Love Seedmatch Investors,
First of all, our heartfelt thanks, that all the supporters stay here so energetically at the ball!
Then directly a spontaneous invitation: We are today at the Future Food in Berlin Kreuzberg and can gladly come together with freshly roasted coffee with our supporters. Anyone who wants to join can call like: 015161533550 or here to know more.
Now for the update:
In our alpha phase, we delivered the first machines to test customers in the middle of the year (July), right after our seed match tasting in Frankfurt am Main. We used this alpha phase to get the machine into the hands of customers who - before beta - should test the machine from all Drumherum on rough cars. The alpha test sequence included 50 test customers, which we tested in five phases in Berlin and Seattle: First, an expert test tested the machine for the first general usability impression. The experts were selected and addressed by an agency according to their (IoT) hardware expertise. In the second part we asked customers to take the machine in a laboratory, to unpack it, set it up, put it into operation and taste different coffees. Among the users were gourmet chefs and food experts. The third part consisted of a diary study and active accompaniment, and ran into the autumn for several weeks. This group was tested for longer usage: the machines were delivered by messenger or mail and left to the customer packaged in the shipping box so they also tested the step "Unpacking", "Installation", "First Usage". The only contact ran through an app with the agency, which gave users three tasks each day, morning, noon and night. These led the customers with great enthusiasm, photo-documented good and not so good aspects and answered the elaborately prepared questions of the editorial team. In particular, it was exciting to see whether the attitude of the subjects to individual aspects changed over the long duration of the diary study and, if so, to what extent. An indicator for our further steps was, in addition to the innumerable details, especially the so-called net promoter score. An indicator to describe how likely it is that a customer will recommend our product to their friends. We were not astonished that our product was recommended here as well as otherwise, for example online or in tasting visitor descriptions. The test groups in Germany and the USA came equally, with the positive aspects being identical, while the subjects who did not consider the product to be suitable for themselves had completely different aspects in both countries as important or unimportant Affinity of the test persons and above all of the test regions: Seattle is almost the birthplace of the upscale coffee consumption in the USA. Subsequently, all customers were invited again to interviews, partly in focus groups, in order to understand the dynamics in a group to our product.
We are very satisfied with the results of the alpha test, since the general machine feedback was very good and we could discover a very critical error.
Quite concretely, this was the good old Grinder, the grinding machine of our machine, which in some (few) cases blocked and thus led to the failure of the machine, which we had to replace. We must exclude this error by itself, because the repair (actually it is a grinder cleaning) is not reasonable for the average user, but an exchange is too expensive. Such a failure may not occur in the beta phase with 200+ machines in 20+ countries, so it was right and important that we could identify and fix it in the alpha phase.
In the next step the 200+ kickstarter beta testers are the stage of the actual "mass production". This production is ongoing and Hans is returning to the production site in Shunde, China next week. The betaphase runs exclusively for BetaBacker for two months and only afterwards and based on the feedback of the beta-backers we go into the "rolling production". Beta feedback is much deeper than alpha feedback. Here we talk with real coffee changers who have paid more money to get the machine rather and to ask us in case of questions. Design, machine usability, communication, packaging, portioning, roasting profiles, coffee selection etc. Beta customers are managed by us (unlike Alpha), we keep a direct communication channel free for these users and make individual deliveries even personally From the users to learn about soft aspects such as cultural habits. Our customers are distributed to 20+ countries, so the cost of this phase is not to be underestimated.
For both phases, we had well prepared us: Our team is enriched with design and communication experts, two Social Venture Associates of OnPurpose have come on board and we have moved to our great Coffee Corner. In Schröderstraße 11 in 10115 Berlin-Mitte, between Tor- und Invalidenstraße, in the former premises of the Commandante Digitalagentur, we have enough space for fulfillment of our outstanding order. And for a showroom where we can hold coffee tastings with our supporters and prospective customers. At the same time, we keep some places free for CoWorking, so that the coffee corner is also filled with life and we subject our own concept to a real b2b stress test.
We invite you all to the first tasting in the Coffee Corner. Please give us a signal via Call.Bonaverde.com and we will contact you back to confirm the date.
Mike, I agree. It would make me feel a bit better if they could prove to us that they actually have a full-functioning unit. An an unedited and complete video would go a long ways towards proving that.
Why shouldn't I question your existence considering Bonaverde offers no credible facts that a working unit actually exists? I mean we have been waiting YEARS with one excuse and purported claim after another. Yet all off this time, we have not seen one unedited and complete video of a machine producing coffee from green beans to carafe. How hard is that to do with today's recording technology?
I also notice in your response that you didn't dispute my claim about whether a working device exists vs. not. All I got was a joke and a thank you. Where was the non-comment board email to alleviate a customer's concerns?
Anybody else looking forward to them posting an unedited video of the complete process?
Hi Bob-
Here's a little more of what's going on with life testing: We completed life testing with an initial batch of machines, with great results. However, Homezest has had to start life testing again with a separate batch of machines to check up on certain new parts. In particular, they're testing for any lifespan issues arising from changes in the roaster hatch, vent, slides, railings, and air filter.
Hope that clears things up! Thanks for staying so engaged with the project!
Hi all-
Thanks for your comments. I'm particularly interested in the theory that I am only a creation of Hans. I had a small existential crisis, but came quickly back to surety of my own reality.
Bob- I'm looking in to more specifics on life testing for you. Hopefully I'll have some more info soon.
I am glad that Jessie responds at least superficially to email. It would still be useful to inform us about the specific delays in the primary areas. While I am glad that the packaging design is completed, what, for example, is the specific holdup(s) on the "life testing?" I see from "http://plan.bonaverde.com"; that the proposed delivery date has moved from February to April.
Boy Bonaverde has the worst luck in the world. Here they are making promises, and then something bad happens on the day of that release. And to think I was getting up hope that October 27 was going to be THAT day.
For our Bonaverde friends, that was sarcasm and no need to reply.
Here is what I call Bullshit:
-Why would one advertise a job posting with a picture of a grinder that they made three plus years ago? Don't they have any up-to-date pictures to place in their adverts? By the way, I would make a good COO as I would fire each and everyone of you for gross incompetence. I have seen better business acumen with roadside lemonade stands. (More sarcasm).
-I don't think "Jessie" really exists. I think it is a persona created by Hans to placate the masses.
-I don't think there is a working machine. I mean if I spent YEARS developing this turd, don't you think I would put up a video that shows the machine going through the entire process of making a carafe of coffee? I know you'll cite the "Martin Vermeulen" video. Wasn't it convenient how you stopped and started the video with the carafe empty and then suddenly it was full? Seems pretty simple for someone to stop the video and then fill up a carafe from another source and then re-start the video. I mean you haven't been honest with us yet so why should I believe you now. By the way, did Martin Scorsese shoot that video or was it your 4 year old nephew? Go ahead prove me wrong, post a video.
-Anybody notice in those factory videos how 99% of the building is completely empty?
-You called me once and asked for my patience (re: I response to my statement about contacting the German version of the Better Business Bureau). I think I have been patient enough. I will be writing them regardless.
Hi Robert-
Thanks for your comment. Hans is headed to Homezest next week to get a better idea of how things are progressing. I should be able to provide more details then. As always, we are eternally grateful for your patience and understanding as we navigate this ever-evolving map.
At the moment, we are not offering refunds to non-Berlin Beta testers. Beta testers will still be Beta testers - you will still receive machines before general mass production, and we're still counting on you to provide vital feedback. Every phase of our staggered Beta testing program is absolutely necessary, and we're still counting on your cumulative insights before we send machines to other backers.
Thanks again for your continued support, patience, and understanding.
happy to see the project still progressing. not a beta tester but excited and hoping not too many problems show up so we can all have a final product in 2017. its been a long wait, but its getting close! have faith coffee lovers! :)
Can you clarify "We expect them by December"? I'm curious to know if by them you mean Beta machines and, if so, is this for the Berlin Beta testers?
Also, there are a few of us which have inquired about the premium we paid to be in the beta program and have asked for that premium to be returned since Berlin kickstarters are (really) the Beta testers if they are getting units first and for a good period of time to provide feedback.
Hello Marc-
Thanks for your message. Unfortunatley, we can't give out refunds at the moment without endangering the investments of your fellow backers. Due to the ramifications of that, we won't be giving refunds until we can do so from ongoing cash flow. Until then, please bear with us. We know it's been a long, frustrating journey, but we think you might actually like what's come out on the other side. Of course, if you don't like it, we'd be happy to provide a refund when we can do so.
Hi Ryan-
Thanks for your message. Yes, today is indeed the 27th. Our Alpha testing reports revealed that, in addition to the new roaster hatch, testers were generally looking for "some minor areas of improvement when it comes to the quality of components." Finding new suppliers for these higher quality components set us back a few weeks. Machines are in production now, and Hans is on his way to Homezest next week to check on progress. We expect them by December. We know how this news must sound, and apologize for any raised hopes.
By chance I ran in to a person the other day that had been approach by this lovely company about trading coffee through them. When he had read their terms he laughed out loud about it, and I can say so did I when I was told about them. For one asking a coffee producer from a developing country for 10t (yes 10.000 kilograms) of coffee-beans on commision from them - without any security on this investment and they had no previous business relationship. Way to bypass the coffee industry for the better...?
Way to change coffee by throwing all the risk on to others. Coffee-farmers, backers etc. seems to be in the same boat on this one - and unfortunatly not the way it should have been!
Anyways, I obviously only have one side of this story, but had a long and interesting talk with him about the industry and what he thought of this company amongst other, and I sure know who I'd trust in this case almost no matter what the answer might be... I'm sure it will sound lovely and caring!
Hi Roman-
Thanks for your questions. We will be confirming addresses before we ship. If you're concerned, you can also send me a message through Kickstarter, and I will make sure everything is in order for you.
While I'm not sure if it will possible to track the shipment, we will certainly notify you when you machine has shipped.
Hi bonaverde
Since I am from Berlin, I have some questions for the shipping of the betamachines:
1) where can we check which deliveryaddress we gave you three years ago ?
2) will it be possible to track the shipment ?
3) do we get notifications that our machine is in the way ?
Greetings
No response in days. Last response I received directly included a "of course you can/should expect a substantive response," implying I didn't need to include such a request, because it's need was obvious.
Apparently that's not true, and even the need to respond is not obvious.
I do not know if the machine will make it to the market. But I appreciate that they are working hard on it even if they are no pros and make plenty mistakes. I have an other project that is running much worse then this one. I tell you what they did: The founder payed my pledge back vie pay pal. He sent that to kickstarter so I got kicked from that project as "refunded". Then he reversed the payment. So I lost the money and the product. I will inform the public prosecution department. So things can get a lot worse then the delay we have here. This is the project I am talking about.
You know the funny thing with this project? It will never make it to market.
Hans and the crew keep adding and changing the structure of the environment so much; all it will ever become at the end of all of this is
_ a great idea_.
Not an idea that makes it to market and has potential for new features in a future version of the machine, but an ever-evolving idea fueled by the hard-earned money of others that will never come to fruition because there is no desire to make a profit from this machine for what it is. The machine has evolved so much in the last four years that it is an unrecognizable disfuguration of what we all backed it for. Much like someone who is addicted to plastic surgery and ends up committing suicide because of their inability to be happy with the results, good or not.
The vision that seems to have settled in the Bonaverde business plan is that people will be coffee-charities with their machine: broadcasting a signal of love over the internet to invite others to come over to your home and share a pot of coffee, on your dime.
About three years ago, you had a loyal community of about several thousand backers. Would have been a good idea to keep them happy, however, you intentionally decided to not take care of the community for almost three years.... now you are crying out for the need to create a community, basically based on the old betrayed community.
Hope you can see how silly this idea is.
I have long time ago given up on that idea. If I will receive a machine, I will decide what to do with it. However, be assured I will never be a member of the "disruptive coffee changer community". I will happily join any other coffee community, I will even help others to use their machines to join other communities, but be sure, I will never help you to make your dream become successful. You betrayed us, why should we care what you dream about!?
One positive thing has come from backing this project. I have learned to be very skeptical with funding projects and especially with 'Extra Perks'. Expect the extra perks to be completely optional and expect whatever idea you paid for to radically change.
I paid for the beta tester perk and regret it deeply. I will get nothing for my premium simply because I don't live in a place close to where Bonnaverde. Considering one of your huge delays was an issue you didn't see until late(The bean catch) because people around the world use the machine differently you would think you would see the value in have a diverse and non homogeneous testing set. Instead you prefer control to real world testing.
Additionally, Instead of doing the considerate thing and saying "We don't think our product will do best testing in a geo-distributed fashion. To make it up to you who spent a 25% premium we will be giving you Y amount more of coffee, or refunding you or whatever" you chose to say "this will be unpopular but we hold the power and hell we are already years late, why not just be another year late and not honor what we told people we were doing, again". Instead of trying to force backers to buy a community device just give us what we paid for.
Also this isn't a "wisest" choice, it's a money choice. Berlin is cheaper than sending overseas. And you can control the situation. All about money and control. Like it has been since the inception of the ridiculous NFC tags and supply lock in.
I'm usually a very positive person and tend to give others the benefit of the doubt. I find this entire project to be beyond a disaster and the endless excuses intolerable; there's a new excuse for appalling behaviour every other week.
I have every expectation this product will not ship, and backers will be out of pocket with nothing to show for it for years to come; I am disappointed and frustrated that such shoddy, appalling and deceitful behaviour is even considered valid business practice in Berlin, let alone can occur with apparently no consequences whatsoever.
Boneverde I think you should refund all non-Berlin based beta testers their additional deposit. You won't of course. Because that would be honourable, and we've long since passed the point where that's a consideration in any dealings you have with, well, anyone.
One could construe this as an attempt to manipulate the process by only drawing from local sources. One could construe this as very myopic and pretty shortsighted. But I actually view it as just another example of how this company seems to have somehow become exceptionally capable at just one task - burning bridges.
"Courting disaster" (like this isn't already a disaster) is trickling out beta test devices to those in Berlin, while leaving hundreds of other beta testers who actively opted to receive a beta devise out of the loop. And then still expecting to start mass production in 3 months. That's quite simply never going to happen.
I suspect what is actually happening here is that the first 'beta testers' in Berlin are actually Bonaverde (or friends of). And this is a smoke screen to allow the first testers to 'find some early beta testing flaws' and delay this farce even more without actually having to send one of these joke machines to a real user for a true candid review. Would love to be proved wrong!
Hi Tony-
Thanks for your message. You should expect a substantive reply. We knew as we developed this approach to Beta testing that some would find it a disappointment. Coming to this decision was a bit of a disappointment for us as well. After all, it would be great to be able to finally, after all this work, simply ship you all the machines. Unfortunately, no matter how we looked at it, that wasn't the wisest approach.
We've made mistakes over this process - and we've tried to learn from them. We know now that anything less than an absolutely methodical approach is courting disaster. In addition to creating community, doing our Beta tests in phases will allow us to have allow absolute intention, attention, and organization throughout the testing process, preventing any issues later on, and making sure this entire process goes as smoothly as possible.
We apologize again for any disappointment, and hope you'll continue to bear with us as we make the tortoise's journey (not the hare's) towards the finish line.
You didn't think that this approach to beta testing was relevant during the campaign, or literally any point prior to 1-2 weeks before we've been expecting them to ship out?
As some unfortunately-prominent US politicians would say: SCAM! RIGGED! SAD!
An dieser Stelle kannst du dem Projektgründer gutes Gelingen wünschen, Fragen stellen und dich mit anderen Unterstützern austauschen. Wir bitten darum, den Austausch stets respektvoll und höflich zu halten! Danke!
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Ältere Kommentare anzeigenJason vor rund 3 Stunden
Excellent, I just changed my Bonaverde Facebook notifications to "All Live Posts." Looking forward to it.
Corey Falgout vor rund 5 Stunden
Yes, I am on facebook and could view a live cast.
Michael Fritz-Dengel vor rund 6 Stunden
@Mike: Yes, the thing about the hatch and the grinder was lost in translation:
Hans wrote that the hatch problem led to a grinder blockage and that the only solution - apart from fixing the hatch - was to do a cleaning of the grinder, and that it hardly can be called a repair. Anyway he remarks, that this is no task for the average user but an exchange everytime this happens, though very seldom, would be too expensive.
To sum it up: The hatch was something that had to be fixed cause to fix the grinder afterwards is not acceptable.
The translation "darf nicht passieren" to "may not occur" is a bit weak. It means more that an error like this with 200 beta-machines out would have been a real pain in the a... for time and budget of the project.
So it should have been "must not".
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Projektgründer vor rund 8 Stunden
Hi Bob-
Hans is headed to visit our partners at Homezest this week. We should have more details for you then. At the moment, the plan has life testing scheduled for mid-December.
Thanks!
Jessie at Bonaverde
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Projektgründer vor rund 8 Stunden
Hello Mike, Corey, Jason, Tony and others-
We'd love to show you the machine in action. We're thinking that Facebook Live would be the ideal forum - absolutely guaranteed to be unedited. Are you all on Facebook to be able to access a live cast of the machine brewing coffee, start-to-finish?
Best,
Jessie at Bonaverde
mike vor rund 13 Stunden
By the way folks, interesting information from Seedmatch.de from our friend Hans and Company (note, not from "Jessie"). It is dated 10/28/2016.
I used Google for the translation so there are issues with words and sentences though.
The below message comments on the "grinder cleaner" rather than the hatch as the cause of failures in the machine. Maybe it was lost in translation.
Bonaverde Alpha Test completed successfully
"Love Seedmatch Investors,
First of all, our heartfelt thanks, that all the supporters stay here so energetically at the ball!
Then directly a spontaneous invitation: We are today at the Future Food in Berlin Kreuzberg and can gladly come together with freshly roasted coffee with our supporters. Anyone who wants to join can call like: 015161533550 or here to know more.
Now for the update:
In our alpha phase, we delivered the first machines to test customers in the middle of the year (July), right after our seed match tasting in Frankfurt am Main. We used this alpha phase to get the machine into the hands of customers who - before beta - should test the machine from all Drumherum on rough cars. The alpha test sequence included 50 test customers, which we tested in five phases in Berlin and Seattle: First, an expert test tested the machine for the first general usability impression. The experts were selected and addressed by an agency according to their (IoT) hardware expertise. In the second part we asked customers to take the machine in a laboratory, to unpack it, set it up, put it into operation and taste different coffees. Among the users were gourmet chefs and food experts. The third part consisted of a diary study and active accompaniment, and ran into the autumn for several weeks. This group was tested for longer usage: the machines were delivered by messenger or mail and left to the customer packaged in the shipping box so they also tested the step "Unpacking", "Installation", "First Usage". The only contact ran through an app with the agency, which gave users three tasks each day, morning, noon and night. These led the customers with great enthusiasm, photo-documented good and not so good aspects and answered the elaborately prepared questions of the editorial team. In particular, it was exciting to see whether the attitude of the subjects to individual aspects changed over the long duration of the diary study and, if so, to what extent. An indicator for our further steps was, in addition to the innumerable details, especially the so-called net promoter score. An indicator to describe how likely it is that a customer will recommend our product to their friends. We were not astonished that our product was recommended here as well as otherwise, for example online or in tasting visitor descriptions. The test groups in Germany and the USA came equally, with the positive aspects being identical, while the subjects who did not consider the product to be suitable for themselves had completely different aspects in both countries as important or unimportant Affinity of the test persons and above all of the test regions: Seattle is almost the birthplace of the upscale coffee consumption in the USA. Subsequently, all customers were invited again to interviews, partly in focus groups, in order to understand the dynamics in a group to our product.
We are very satisfied with the results of the alpha test, since the general machine feedback was very good and we could discover a very critical error.
Quite concretely, this was the good old Grinder, the grinding machine of our machine, which in some (few) cases blocked and thus led to the failure of the machine, which we had to replace. We must exclude this error by itself, because the repair (actually it is a grinder cleaning) is not reasonable for the average user, but an exchange is too expensive. Such a failure may not occur in the beta phase with 200+ machines in 20+ countries, so it was right and important that we could identify and fix it in the alpha phase.
In the next step the 200+ kickstarter beta testers are the stage of the actual "mass production". This production is ongoing and Hans is returning to the production site in Shunde, China next week. The betaphase runs exclusively for BetaBacker for two months and only afterwards and based on the feedback of the beta-backers we go into the "rolling production". Beta feedback is much deeper than alpha feedback. Here we talk with real coffee changers who have paid more money to get the machine rather and to ask us in case of questions. Design, machine usability, communication, packaging, portioning, roasting profiles, coffee selection etc. Beta customers are managed by us (unlike Alpha), we keep a direct communication channel free for these users and make individual deliveries even personally From the users to learn about soft aspects such as cultural habits. Our customers are distributed to 20+ countries, so the cost of this phase is not to be underestimated.
For both phases, we had well prepared us: Our team is enriched with design and communication experts, two Social Venture Associates of OnPurpose have come on board and we have moved to our great Coffee Corner. In Schröderstraße 11 in 10115 Berlin-Mitte, between Tor- und Invalidenstraße, in the former premises of the Commandante Digitalagentur, we have enough space for fulfillment of our outstanding order. And for a showroom where we can hold coffee tastings with our supporters and prospective customers. At the same time, we keep some places free for CoWorking, so that the coffee corner is also filled with life and we subject our own concept to a real b2b stress test.
We invite you all to the first tasting in the Coffee Corner. Please give us a signal via Call.Bonaverde.com and we will contact you back to confirm the date.
Many greetings from BERLIN
Hans & the Bonaverde team"
Bob Fraser vor rund 21 Stunden
Jessie, a followup question. When is Homezest scheduled to start the lifetime testing?
Bob Fraser vor rund 21 Stunden
Thank you Jessie. It's a start.
Tony Godfrey vor 1 Tag
I like Mike. I bet Ike would like Mike too.
Release the video!!
Jason vor 1 Tag
I like Mike. He brings up some very, very interesting points. I'd like to see a full demo video of one of the beta units.
Corey Falgout vor 1 Tag
Mike, I agree. It would make me feel a bit better if they could prove to us that they actually have a full-functioning unit. An an unedited and complete video would go a long ways towards proving that.
mike vor 2 Tagen
Why shouldn't I question your existence considering Bonaverde offers no credible facts that a working unit actually exists? I mean we have been waiting YEARS with one excuse and purported claim after another. Yet all off this time, we have not seen one unedited and complete video of a machine producing coffee from green beans to carafe. How hard is that to do with today's recording technology?
I also notice in your response that you didn't dispute my claim about whether a working device exists vs. not. All I got was a joke and a thank you. Where was the non-comment board email to alleviate a customer's concerns?
Anybody else looking forward to them posting an unedited video of the complete process?
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Projektgründer vor 3 Tagen
Hi Bob-
Here's a little more of what's going on with life testing: We completed life testing with an initial batch of machines, with great results. However, Homezest has had to start life testing again with a separate batch of machines to check up on certain new parts. In particular, they're testing for any lifespan issues arising from changes in the roaster hatch, vent, slides, railings, and air filter.
Hope that clears things up! Thanks for staying so engaged with the project!
Best,
Jessie at Bonaverde
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Projektgründer vor 4 Tagen
Hi all-
Thanks for your comments. I'm particularly interested in the theory that I am only a creation of Hans. I had a small existential crisis, but came quickly back to surety of my own reality.
Bob- I'm looking in to more specifics on life testing for you. Hopefully I'll have some more info soon.
Thanks all for your continued engagement!
Best,
Jessie at Bonaverde
Bob Fraser vor 4 Tagen
I am glad that Jessie responds at least superficially to email. It would still be useful to inform us about the specific delays in the primary areas. While I am glad that the packaging design is completed, what, for example, is the specific holdup(s) on the "life testing?" I see from "http://plan.bonaverde.com"; that the proposed delivery date has moved from February to April.
John Schmitt vor 5 Tagen
Interesting theories Mike. I can't say I would be surprised if they where true. Coneverde is a truly dishonest "company".
mike vor 5 Tagen
Boy Bonaverde has the worst luck in the world. Here they are making promises, and then something bad happens on the day of that release. And to think I was getting up hope that October 27 was going to be THAT day.
For our Bonaverde friends, that was sarcasm and no need to reply.
Here is what I call Bullshit:
-Why would one advertise a job posting with a picture of a grinder that they made three plus years ago? Don't they have any up-to-date pictures to place in their adverts? By the way, I would make a good COO as I would fire each and everyone of you for gross incompetence. I have seen better business acumen with roadside lemonade stands. (More sarcasm).
-I don't think "Jessie" really exists. I think it is a persona created by Hans to placate the masses.
-I don't think there is a working machine. I mean if I spent YEARS developing this turd, don't you think I would put up a video that shows the machine going through the entire process of making a carafe of coffee? I know you'll cite the "Martin Vermeulen" video. Wasn't it convenient how you stopped and started the video with the carafe empty and then suddenly it was full? Seems pretty simple for someone to stop the video and then fill up a carafe from another source and then re-start the video. I mean you haven't been honest with us yet so why should I believe you now. By the way, did Martin Scorsese shoot that video or was it your 4 year old nephew? Go ahead prove me wrong, post a video.
-Anybody notice in those factory videos how 99% of the building is completely empty?
-You called me once and asked for my patience (re: I response to my statement about contacting the German version of the Better Business Bureau). I think I have been patient enough. I will be writing them regardless.
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Projektgründer vor 6 Tagen
Hi Paul-
Thanks so much for your vote of confidence! We are getting close, and we appreciate you bearing with us and keeping the faith!
Best,
Jessie at Bonaverde
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Projektgründer vor 6 Tagen
Hi Robert-
Thanks for your comment. Hans is headed to Homezest next week to get a better idea of how things are progressing. I should be able to provide more details then. As always, we are eternally grateful for your patience and understanding as we navigate this ever-evolving map.
At the moment, we are not offering refunds to non-Berlin Beta testers. Beta testers will still be Beta testers - you will still receive machines before general mass production, and we're still counting on you to provide vital feedback. Every phase of our staggered Beta testing program is absolutely necessary, and we're still counting on your cumulative insights before we send machines to other backers.
Thanks again for your continued support, patience, and understanding.
Best,
Jessie at Bonaverde
paul vor 6 Tagen
happy to see the project still progressing. not a beta tester but excited and hoping not too many problems show up so we can all have a final product in 2017. its been a long wait, but its getting close! have faith coffee lovers! :)
Robert Kondilas vor 6 Tagen
Hi Jessie -
Can you clarify "We expect them by December"? I'm curious to know if by them you mean Beta machines and, if so, is this for the Berlin Beta testers?
Also, there are a few of us which have inquired about the premium we paid to be in the beta program and have asked for that premium to be returned since Berlin kickstarters are (really) the Beta testers if they are getting units first and for a good period of time to provide feedback.
Thanks in advance.
Robert
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Projektgründer vor 6 Tagen
Hello Marc-
Thanks for your message. Unfortunatley, we can't give out refunds at the moment without endangering the investments of your fellow backers. Due to the ramifications of that, we won't be giving refunds until we can do so from ongoing cash flow. Until then, please bear with us. We know it's been a long, frustrating journey, but we think you might actually like what's come out on the other side. Of course, if you don't like it, we'd be happy to provide a refund when we can do so.
Thanks again for reaching out.
Best,
Jessie at Bonaverde
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Projektgründer vor 6 Tagen
Hi Ryan-
Thanks for your message. Yes, today is indeed the 27th. Our Alpha testing reports revealed that, in addition to the new roaster hatch, testers were generally looking for "some minor areas of improvement when it comes to the quality of components." Finding new suppliers for these higher quality components set us back a few weeks. Machines are in production now, and Hans is on his way to Homezest next week to check on progress. We expect them by December. We know how this news must sound, and apologize for any raised hopes.
Thanks for bearing with us.
Best,
Jessie at Bonaverde
Marc Egle vor 6 Tagen
I also want to cancel. How i become my money back ?
Time is over now. My new Siemens works fine in my kitchen.
Ryan Dolan vor 7 Tagen
So... today is the 27th right?
Christian Leth Christensen am October 27
By chance I ran in to a person the other day that had been approach by this lovely company about trading coffee through them. When he had read their terms he laughed out loud about it, and I can say so did I when I was told about them. For one asking a coffee producer from a developing country for 10t (yes 10.000 kilograms) of coffee-beans on commision from them - without any security on this investment and they had no previous business relationship. Way to bypass the coffee industry for the better...?
Way to change coffee by throwing all the risk on to others. Coffee-farmers, backers etc. seems to be in the same boat on this one - and unfortunatly not the way it should have been!
Anyways, I obviously only have one side of this story, but had a long and interesting talk with him about the industry and what he thought of this company amongst other, and I sure know who I'd trust in this case almost no matter what the answer might be... I'm sure it will sound lovely and caring!
John Schmitt am October 27
Han's do you feel any empathy for the thousands of people you defrauded?
John Schmitt am October 27
Conaverda a company dedicated to lies, scams, fraud, and any other criminal endeavors that lines Han's pockets.
We don't want your machines, we want justice and our money.
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Projektgründer am October 24
Hi Roman-
Thanks for your questions. We will be confirming addresses before we ship. If you're concerned, you can also send me a message through Kickstarter, and I will make sure everything is in order for you.
While I'm not sure if it will possible to track the shipment, we will certainly notify you when you machine has shipped.
Thanks!
Jessie at Bonaverde
Brady Dahl am October 23
Bonaverde turned off email updates to backers because they were "getting too many complaints about receiving them."
Sherman am October 22
I don't seem to be getting the updates anymore via email. Anyone else have this problem?
Roman Moritz am October 21
Hi bonaverde
Since I am from Berlin, I have some questions for the shipping of the betamachines:
1) where can we check which deliveryaddress we gave you three years ago ?
2) will it be possible to track the shipment ?
3) do we get notifications that our machine is in the way ?
Greetings
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Projektgründer am October 21
Hi all-
Thank you for your comments, and apologies for the delay in response. Hans has put together an explanation of the rationale behind the staggered Beta testing that will hopefully answer some of your questions, concerns, and frustrations. You can find it here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jimguldi/worlds-first-roast-grind-brew-coffee-machine/posts/1715112
Thanks for your continued engagement.
Best,
Jessie at Bonaverde
Tony Godfrey am October 21
No response in days. Last response I received directly included a "of course you can/should expect a substantive response," implying I didn't need to include such a request, because it's need was obvious.
Apparently that's not true, and even the need to respond is not obvious.
SUBSTANTIVE. RESPONSE. EXPECTED.
Oliver Schmidt am October 21
I do not know if the machine will make it to the market. But I appreciate that they are working hard on it even if they are no pros and make plenty mistakes. I have an other project that is running much worse then this one. I tell you what they did: The founder payed my pledge back vie pay pal. He sent that to kickstarter so I got kicked from that project as "refunded". Then he reversed the payment. So I lost the money and the product. I will inform the public prosecution department. So things can get a lot worse then the delay we have here. This is the project I am talking about.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ezelleron/kraftwerk-highly-innovative-portable-power-plant/comments
Brady Dahl am October 20
You know the funny thing with this project? It will never make it to market.
Hans and the crew keep adding and changing the structure of the environment so much; all it will ever become at the end of all of this is
_ a great idea_.
Not an idea that makes it to market and has potential for new features in a future version of the machine, but an ever-evolving idea fueled by the hard-earned money of others that will never come to fruition because there is no desire to make a profit from this machine for what it is. The machine has evolved so much in the last four years that it is an unrecognizable disfuguration of what we all backed it for. Much like someone who is addicted to plastic surgery and ends up committing suicide because of their inability to be happy with the results, good or not.
The vision that seems to have settled in the Bonaverde business plan is that people will be coffee-charities with their machine: broadcasting a signal of love over the internet to invite others to come over to your home and share a pot of coffee, on your dime.
What a joke.
Torwag am October 20
About three years ago, you had a loyal community of about several thousand backers. Would have been a good idea to keep them happy, however, you intentionally decided to not take care of the community for almost three years.... now you are crying out for the need to create a community, basically based on the old betrayed community.
Hope you can see how silly this idea is.
I have long time ago given up on that idea. If I will receive a machine, I will decide what to do with it. However, be assured I will never be a member of the "disruptive coffee changer community". I will happily join any other coffee community, I will even help others to use their machines to join other communities, but be sure, I will never help you to make your dream become successful. You betrayed us, why should we care what you dream about!?
Robert Kondilas am October 19
I have to agree with the logic around paying extra for the beta and, because I am located outside of Berlin, would like to request compensation.
Daniel Campos am October 19
One positive thing has come from backing this project. I have learned to be very skeptical with funding projects and especially with 'Extra Perks'. Expect the extra perks to be completely optional and expect whatever idea you paid for to radically change.
I paid for the beta tester perk and regret it deeply. I will get nothing for my premium simply because I don't live in a place close to where Bonnaverde. Considering one of your huge delays was an issue you didn't see until late(The bean catch) because people around the world use the machine differently you would think you would see the value in have a diverse and non homogeneous testing set. Instead you prefer control to real world testing.
Additionally, Instead of doing the considerate thing and saying "We don't think our product will do best testing in a geo-distributed fashion. To make it up to you who spent a 25% premium we will be giving you Y amount more of coffee, or refunding you or whatever" you chose to say "this will be unpopular but we hold the power and hell we are already years late, why not just be another year late and not honor what we told people we were doing, again". Instead of trying to force backers to buy a community device just give us what we paid for.
Brendan am October 19
Also this isn't a "wisest" choice, it's a money choice. Berlin is cheaper than sending overseas. And you can control the situation. All about money and control. Like it has been since the inception of the ridiculous NFC tags and supply lock in.
I'm usually a very positive person and tend to give others the benefit of the doubt. I find this entire project to be beyond a disaster and the endless excuses intolerable; there's a new excuse for appalling behaviour every other week.
I have every expectation this product will not ship, and backers will be out of pocket with nothing to show for it for years to come; I am disappointed and frustrated that such shoddy, appalling and deceitful behaviour is even considered valid business practice in Berlin, let alone can occur with apparently no consequences whatsoever.
Brendan am October 19
Boneverde I think you should refund all non-Berlin based beta testers their additional deposit. You won't of course. Because that would be honourable, and we've long since passed the point where that's a consideration in any dealings you have with, well, anyone.
One could construe this as an attempt to manipulate the process by only drawing from local sources. One could construe this as very myopic and pretty shortsighted. But I actually view it as just another example of how this company seems to have somehow become exceptionally capable at just one task - burning bridges.
Even the ones it's yet to build.
Tony Godfrey am October 18
I paid the same $100 surcharge to be a beta tester in Texas that those in Berlin paid, with the same expected delivery date.
That is money you have NO ground not to immediately return.
Dan Pearce am October 18
"Courting disaster" (like this isn't already a disaster) is trickling out beta test devices to those in Berlin, while leaving hundreds of other beta testers who actively opted to receive a beta devise out of the loop. And then still expecting to start mass production in 3 months. That's quite simply never going to happen.
I suspect what is actually happening here is that the first 'beta testers' in Berlin are actually Bonaverde (or friends of). And this is a smoke screen to allow the first testers to 'find some early beta testing flaws' and delay this farce even more without actually having to send one of these joke machines to a real user for a true candid review. Would love to be proved wrong!
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Projektgründer am October 18
Hi Tony-
Thanks for your message. You should expect a substantive reply. We knew as we developed this approach to Beta testing that some would find it a disappointment. Coming to this decision was a bit of a disappointment for us as well. After all, it would be great to be able to finally, after all this work, simply ship you all the machines. Unfortunately, no matter how we looked at it, that wasn't the wisest approach.
We've made mistakes over this process - and we've tried to learn from them. We know now that anything less than an absolutely methodical approach is courting disaster. In addition to creating community, doing our Beta tests in phases will allow us to have allow absolute intention, attention, and organization throughout the testing process, preventing any issues later on, and making sure this entire process goes as smoothly as possible.
We apologize again for any disappointment, and hope you'll continue to bear with us as we make the tortoise's journey (not the hare's) towards the finish line.
Best,
Jessie at Bonaverde
Tony Godfrey am October 17
To be clear, my question is not rhetorical. I expect a substantive reply.
Tony Godfrey am October 17
You didn't think that this approach to beta testing was relevant during the campaign, or literally any point prior to 1-2 weeks before we've been expecting them to ship out?
As some unfortunately-prominent US politicians would say: SCAM! RIGGED! SAD!
Robert Kondilas am October 15
Thanks guys! Happy to get my machine and start providing feedback.
Robert
Bonaverde Coffee Changers Projektgründer am October 15
Hi Robert-
Sorry I was a little late this week! You'll find the new update posted now.
Thanks!
Jessie at Bonaverde
Robert Kondilas am October 14
Can we get a weekly update for the week of 10 October? You guys have been pretty good so far after we requested this.
Thanks.
Robert
Robert Kondilas am October 14
Can we get a weekly update for the week of 10 October? You guys have been pretty good so far after we requested this.
Thanks.
Robert