by Jamey Stegmaier
AHoyhoy Jamey this is a fantastic Response nad a well thoguht out plan of action. Really sorry to hear about the loss of the expensive molds and Respect the hell out of oyu guys for doing it.
GOodl uck with next projects nadi ll keep watching ^_^
Calvin and Luca: I think you both make some great points. Calvin, as you note, there are a lot of variances from project to project in the way that they make you feel valued as a backer. Exclusives are one way that a project creator can make backers feel valued.
We're not doing traditional exclusives with Tuscany (i.e., for a standard pledge you get a card or component that will never be made again), but there are a number of other semi-exclusives and ways that I've constructed the project to encourage people to back it instead of wait for retail. I won't delve into the details here, but you'll get to see all of them in full force on March 12. :)
@Luca: first of all, I have no doubt that Tuscany campaign will success, there will be a group of people whom will loves the game and back it. Whether the funding will go sky high with little funding help from another group of people including myself, whom looking for KS exclusive, that we will have to wait and see.
Yes, I agree if everyone are thinking the same way as I do then there might not be Tuscany. If that's the case, then there must be a reason, maybe the game it's that exciting or maybe there is no KS exclusive. Jamey will soon get his answer about his new business plan.
I absolutely agree that if I PAY my money here, I'm a backer and if I Buy the game later then I'm a customer. Crowfunding is the perfect word, because it does limit the risk of the creator but not the Backer. Yes and yes, you can say Jamey has good track record, but I'm talking KS in general. We can't lie to ourselves that there are actual KS case out there which backer never received their game. I started using KS because of Hegemonic by Minion Games, and now almost every retailer have the game while I'm still waiting for my copy from them. Not until I get the actual game in my hand I'm still consider myself taking the risk and there is nothing KS can do to help backer on that.
For the group of people like myself included , we know why we back the project, and we know what kind of risk such as, might not receive the game, delay, poor game design or whatever. We also know that we are taking the risk because some might back for the KS exclusive.
I guess what I want to sum up is, there are many many many hundreds of good games out there, which I can purchase and enjoy right away. If the KS campaign is crow funding a retail version, why wouldn't purchase something I can enjoy right away instead of waiting for months or in some case years for the KS game.
If I'm not paying more for the KS exclusive, why wouldn't I spend less and get a retail version?
Hobby of board gaming in general is not cheap, the less I pay, the more goes else where, to my family for example.
I might be minority, but I doubt it. Or else there don't be people posting hot deal on BBG every days and hours looking to pay less for a game.
I wish the best to Tuscany campaign and I can't wait to see what Jamey will bring to surprise me. If the game is good, I will definitely purchase it, when it hits the retail. If they want my money in advance, they better be something good like KS exclusive.
PS: that is the main reason I stop and never will back Queens game again. Anyone can look at their funding record in general, most of them have reach their funding goal, which was set low because its more like a pre-sale for the retail version, but funding never go sky high like Euphoria.
@Calvin: If you pay for the game here, you became a backer of that game, inf you buy it alsewere you are a customer...
If everyones will do as you say, no tuscany will be released, no negative and positive review, no decision to make at all...
If you like a project you will back it not for exlusive token or low price, but because you think it's a project that deserves to be made.
Crowfunding was born for this, to help people realize their project with low risk, not to help backers to make a deal...
First of all, I got KS Viticulture and KS Euphoria.
I love surprises, I can't wait to see the no-exclusives Tuscany.
Without KS exclusives I don't see why I wouldn't keep the money or spend it else where, while waiting for the retail version, read more positive AND negative review,if there is any, and then make my decision..
I don't really buy what Jamey suggested that "wait to get Tuscany Prima after the Kickstarter campaign, you will pay more for it," From reading this, some how I feel like that sentence suggests the "price" is KS exclusive.
As for cheaper price, I'm sure we all know where we can get a retail version for cheaper than suggested retail price right?
PS: I love this Euphoria campaign, I like the game, I don't mind the wait mainly because I love what I pay for, which includes KS exclusives, period....
I don't have a single game that uses coal or gems. Those would seem to be on the rarer side. Wood and Ore or stone however I have several of.
Thanks Martin. I don't want to point the finger at anyone in particular--in the end, I tried to find the solution that would give us a clean break from the exclusive restriction so as to respect all backers and provide better service to people who discover our games post-Kickstarter. Although I'm sad to see those moulds go, in the long run I think this is the right move.
Thanks for your kind words about Euphoria! Hopefully we'll continue that trend of quality with Tuscany.
i think the throwing away of the old moulds and making a new ones is an utter waste of time , resources and will serve to please only this one single troll. (aka. "don't be that guy").
The way the whole situation is handled only shows Stonemaier's exemplary and outstanding commitment to quality , detail and his social awareness.
i personally have nothing against using original moulds at all !
As a side note: brilliant remark about "KS exlusives" not being a perfect way to build interest in any KS product. Unfortunately , this again shows only Jamey's remarkable foresight as i have no delusions that 99, 97% of all other KS projects will never embrace this reasoning.
PS - just got my game - incredibly beautiful. I have tons of ameritrash games and some euro, i also have seen all the german ones and Euphoria is a King of quality among them. Yup, germans are not top any more >< (though stonemaier sounds sort of ... german ;D)
I would say the solution meets the best of both worlds, while personally the exclusives being offered as separate purchases is not a big deal. However, I can understand the perspectives from those that it does. You can't please everyone, but I respect the fact you took the vote to the backers first shows a lot of respect.
@Thomas: I appreciate the idea, but producing these resources in small quantities isn't economically feasible. So for us to afford a new run of the tokens, we have to produce a ton of them--way more than original backers could take.
As an add on to another backer comment, how about keeping the original molds, but only offering them to KS backers? Make the new molds for non KS backers to upgrade their game. Also, make the original supreme molds available only for a limited time - say a year - then destroy. And then, of course, you can do your new policies with Tuscany and not worry about this ever again. Whew!
@Geraldine: I don't see how the token can be changed more than what Jamey proposed, an ingot is an ingot, the shape can't be other than that, for clay he said that it will have a completely differente shape, and stone will be even made with different material... so...
@ Jamey: you shouldn't be surprised that "the vocal minority" are less active here now. Why would we want to keep participating when we are told by some of our fellow members of the backer 'community' that disagreeing with them and believing that promises are NOT made to be broken if they later prove inconvenient makes us "petty", "spiteful", people someone would refuse to play with in a game group, etc.
This will be my last post here for that reason.
As for your proposal, I would have preferred that the new resources look more different: it seems pointless to make such minor changes that the non-exclusive ones will blend in with the others, if I've understood you correctly. However, I do respect the money-back offer to anyone who feels very dissatisfied.
One quick clarification though: the "vocal minority" are actually those who voted YES. Of the 6000 backers eligible to vote, and anyone else who accessed your poll (friends of yes-voters, people who missed out on the KS launch and wanted to buy the exclusive items?), only 1000+ voted to allow you to go back on your promise of exclusivity. That is far from a majority.
I wish I had mine, those things are worth a lot now! I loved that game.
Brian: I have still my childhood fireball island, it was my favorite game!!! :D
Fireball island uses a gem!
Niagara uses gems. There are a few space games that do too but I can't think of them right now. I'll ask tonight at game night.
The crappy acrylic craft-store gems are just so meh even though they are cheap and come in many colors. Glass would get my attention. :-)
Also, I'm curious: People keep voting "gems". Is that because of Caverna? The only other game I know that uses gems is Ascension. What are some of the other games that use gems?
@Brian: I haven't tried to transport the moulds in the past (they're in some factory in China), but I'll see if I can get my hands on them.
@Vincent: They're going to be very similar to the Euphoria pieces, but they'll be ubiquitous. This isn't a matter of completing your copy of Euphoria, as the new pieces won't be associated with Euphoria. You have the most complete copy of Euphoria possible.
First, I would just like to say that I did Vote "I'm fine with it" for that poll there. However, Now that I read this news, I am a bit concerned now. These new molds you describe for the realistic tokens kinda sound better than the Kickstarter ones. I would have felt a lot more comfortable If the molds were the same. It made sense to me, People who weren't in the Kickstarter get the cool resources and I get to save a lot of money on what they paid extra for. But, now they are getting their own unique cool resources, that I didn't even have the option of having in the first place and If I want those resources as well, I have to pay extra. Leaves me feeling a bit out in the cold.
It would seem I am the only one who feels this way, but uh, there it is.
I'll go ahead and take a few swings at this dead horse and say you shouldn't throw away the molds. If you are he'll bent on getting rid of them, why not make them a collectible on some crazy pledge level. I have no idea how big they are or what they look like, but bones sold a couple of their molds and people ate them up.
I appreciate all of the comments asking me to not throw away the old moulds, but we're starting over on a clean slate to appease the vocal minority (who haven't said much on this update). To the vocal majority: I really appreciate your support and how you see that Stonemaier is not trying to dupe you, but rather trying to build a bigger community of gamers with access to unique resources to enhance their gaming experience. We'll now be able to leave behind the burden and misconceived notions that came with the "KS exclusive" label on the old resources and start anew with new ones. I'd encourage you to vote on the new poll about those resources here: http://stonemaiergames.com/secret-kickstarter-backer-survey-page/
Why spend the money to make new moulds? That seems silly, If the grayscale board is exclusive That is pretty cool. But personally the Euphoria stamp on the gold is what makes it so cool. I would keep the moulds and instead make the alternate recruit cards and the grayscale board exclusive. I personally do not like multiplier tokens and I want to double all of my resources and commodities so I never have to use it again.
My comment on the previous update seems to have been lost in the ether.
My 2p worth.
1. Do not throw the moulds away but restrict buying them to the backers only.
2. I REALLY hate pre-order exclusives. Give them as free bonuses for people who do pre-oorder but allow people to get them after the release, they just have to pay for them. This is even worse if the bonus is a major game changer, cough Wizkids cough.
3. Do two versions of the game. The Basic version has all the stretch goal game improvements (extra cards etc) so that the game plays the same, the Deluxe version has all the component improvements. The bonus is that people who pledge, automatically get the Deluxe version for the Basic price.
I backed so I could get a game and you could make money. I've received my game, now you should make as much money as you can from it.
I don't think it's smart to throw away your moulds and recreate others. That seems like a silly waste of money to me. I do appreciate your desire to make the components unique to the KS backers, but I think the case of the common good should be weighed. We all just wanted the game to get published and be well done. My opinion is that you've done what you promised already and I don't see why you shouldn't make the best possible game for the gamers who buy it after KS. I want them to have the best possible game too of course.
Reading this message makes me want to back the Tuscany KS project even though I don't think I would like the game.
I'm not at all surprised that Jamey and Alan have once again gone out of their way to try to please everyone - a very classy response!
For me, Kickstarter isn't about exclusives, it's about helping awesome projects become a reality when otherwise they wouldn't happen. And in some lucky cases (like Euphoria), being a part of increasing the awesomeness of the project. That's the true incentive for supporting future campaigns.
All I can say is Jamey - fantastic job in trying to appeal to everyone and come up with as fair of solution as possible. I'd personally be VERY happy for you to reuse the molds and such, but I respect you for not doing so as well. (I just hope it doesn't jeopardize future projects.)
I look forward to backing Tuscany and continuing to enjoy playing both Euphoria and Viticulture.
Cheers, your friend,
I would like bits made of all of the resources in both Ora Et Labora and Le Havre
So haven't read hardly any comments, but I'm fine with Jamey's approach. There are ways to bundle KS creativity that can still be "exclusive" to backers without being one off items. Incentives can exist in more than one form folks and he's been up front with every decision made. Truth be told, I like unique exclusives as it tickles the collector itch, but I like open, communicative and honest more and Jamey is a class act. I fully support his planned compromise and wish more companies like his existed. Can't wait to see Tuscany:)
Man, I'm glad I live in times where character, integrity, and a person's word are devalued, and that those trying to uphold those values are criticized.
I'm disappointed that actual pieces of apple aren't being suggested for the food resoure tokens.
The vocal minority of gamers are an ungrateful bunch aren't they? Dealing with that group can suck the joy out of any project.
Jamey - as always you are keeping it classy. I have no concerns about your intentions or execution. Keep up the great work.
Jamey, your handling of both the Viticulture and Euphoria campaigns has consistently impressed me. I think you've chosen an excellent solution that should make everyone happy. You've got a customer for life.
@Eric: I understand your point and do worry that people may chose not to back future campaigns without the draw of exclusives, but for what it's worth: as long as I'm using Kickstarter, I'll be backing any Stonemaier Games project I see.
You can vote for more than one. :)
New poll: Which resources would you most like to see in "realistic" form?
I'm the first vote ^-^
New poll: Which resources would you most like to see in "realistic" form?
Jamey, classy to the last and willing to bend to a minority that others wouldn't be concerned about. You can never please everyone but I suspect you'd die trying. I'll be back for more whatever you do.
So impressed by your integrity and willingness to keep even a small minority of voters happy Jamey. I for one felt (and still do) that you should have gone ahead with it, as I know you have always respected your backers/supporters with all the decisions you have made. I too applaud you, and can't wait to back your next project, and all your future ones for that matter!
to me KS exclusives are a great incentive to pay for something year(s) before it comes out. As long as it doesn't add/take away from gameplay i'm all for exclusives
In backing your projects, I'm backing you as a creator and a small business owner. I want to help, as a backer, you reach your dreams and goals and believe in your vision. Do not destroy anything of value; do what's best for your business. Keep the old molds if YOU want and continue offering the customer service YOU think is fair. I trust your vision and will continue to back your projects.
As it happens, I think this was by far the smartest move for SMG business wise. The few thousand dollars in lost molds seems pretty insignificant to the pool of goodwill you will earn from this decision - making the pool that much larger than what you have already earned with your business practices so far.
As I said in the last update, there will undoubtedly be some core of backers who will remain unhappy with this decision, but I think this decision will keep that core very small. Who knows, that number may even be exceeded by the number of new backers who hear of how this all played out, and decide to jump in!
I already intend to back the Tuscany campaign, but I am curious to see what combination of incentives you provide to encourage people to pledge rather than wait for retail. I know there are a lot of possible incentives to offer, but KS Exclusives have traditionally been a shorthand marker to encourage more pledges now. It will be an interesting business experiment. I wish I could be part of your planning team!
I am a person who can only experience pleasure if other people have less than me, as I fondle my lovely, lovely gold, so obviously I voted against - no wait, my mistake, I didn't.
I am not sat at home waiting for this single game and its pieces to fill a void in my life. If you are then maybe KS is not for you.
I do not think there is a limit to joy in the world, so someone else getting something they want makes me happy.
You voted against a company whose game you presumably like (otherwise you could have taken the money back guarantee) saving a bit of money, so it could invest in making other games which you would most likely appreciate.
My copy of Euphoria was late, I told Jamey not to worry and save any money it would cost him to send it quickly. I did not walk down the street bitter, knowing that everyone I passed had probably bought a shop copy and played it before ME.
I find it very hard to understand any no-voter, and I have tried to read many of the points they made, but what is your loss in this exactly? You have the game. Someone else has the game and... no, you lost me there.
It does remind me there are about 10% of the people at my games club I won't play games with.
Just a quick tuppence from me. While I feel special for getting the cool bits via kick starter I don't feel the need to deny others the chance to get the same or marginally different bits, Jamie thanks again for a great game and do what's best for your business. I look forward to more great products from you in the future.
I'm sorry, but I have to come out and say it. Anyone still upset with Jamey has either misunderstood him or is an unreasonable person. Not only is he spending a ton of money to keep your precious exclusive resources unique and exclusive, he's offering your money back.
Seriously, people. This is petty.
I have many thoughts on this, but have had no time to reply. Barely any now either, but this one thing keeps sticking in my craw: "took the risk on".
**stares at Print and Play version of Euphoria**
**stares at Euphoria rulebook released before end of Kickstarter campaign**
**Stares at line stating 'Money Back Guarantee'**
**stares at comments from Jamey about playing 'Risk: Legacy.'**
Wait a minute...scratch that last one....
I am one of those people that doesn't care for being told one thing and then later told another, but I've found after a lot of reflection over the last few years that sometimes those things are for a good reason, and often with better results in the long term. In today's digital world it is impossible to see the change next week much less 6 months down the road and if the gaming community wants to see companies such as SMG succeed in the long term and continue to provide outstanding games then they need to let them make a few mistakes, get off the mat, and continue doing their best to provide value to ALL their customers.
More later perhaps, but I don't know that anybody really wants to listen to that. :D
I can see where Patrick Rose is coming from: just 3 days ago, I received a copy of a game I had kickstarted, and had an estimated delivery date of March 2013. Many kickstarters are mismanaged and badly run, (or turn towards a backer-second mentality) that having some kickstarter exclusives so that your trust isn't misplaced wouldn't be bad.
On the other hand, I want everyone to have the best Euphoria experience possible. I want them to fall in love with the game I fell in love with.
And thus, I wouldn't mind them getting all the nice shinies.
this all reminds me of the agircola animeeples