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A story-driven CRPG set in the world of Monte Cook's Numenera.  We are deeply appreciative to all of you who made this possible.
A story-driven CRPG set in the world of Monte Cook's Numenera.  We are deeply appreciative to all of you who made this possible. Torment: Tides of Numenera is available now for PC on Steam or GOG, as well as PlayStation 4 and Xbox One.
A story-driven CRPG set in the world of Monte Cook's Numenera. We are deeply appreciative to all of you who made this possible. Torment: Tides of Numenera is available now for PC on Steam or GOG, as well as PlayStation 4 and Xbox One.
74,405 backers pledged $4,188,927 to help bring this project to life.

Updated our Journal (26): Decision

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TL;DR: Combat vote results completed – statistically it was a tie! Torment: Tides of Numenera’s combat (and Crises) will be turn-based combat. We’ll address concerns expressed by Real-Time with Pause fans in our design.

Hello,

Your participation in the combat discussion and vote has been terrific! Almost 20% voted and over 2000 comments were made on our forums alone. That’s twice the turnout I expected, and it’s great to see all of the passion our backers have for the project. I’d like to thank everyone who got involved.

It’s been an exciting vote! The leading system changed a couple times early on and the final tally is: 7,267 TB, 7,052 RTwP and 782 Indifferent. With the vote at 48% to 47%, and with those who voted “indifferent” being more than triple the difference between the TB and RTwP camps, it is essentially a draw.

As we explained in Update 24, we were leaning toward turn-based combat because we believe it’s better suited for the kind of tactical complexity we're looking for through our Crisis system. We believe it’s a stronger fit for bringing narrative elements, including dialogue with NPCs, into hand-crafted combat situations. We have considered the vote, but more important than the vote are the comments (not just in our forums, but on many of the community forums and articles on this topic). Your comments have helped us greatly in understanding why people have the preferences and concerns that they do.

We have decided to go with turn-based combat. Ultimately, there are no losers here. This is all part of the process of making an RPG we are all passionate about and we think you’ll like Torment’s combat even if you voted for RTwP. While we have not been looking forward to disappointing half of our backers, we were happy to find that many of the reasons people gave for disliking TB and preferring RTwP can be addressed through the details of our combat system and encounter design. I’d like to go over some of the more common comments we saw either for RTwP or against TB and explain how we will address them.

Comment #1: Turn-Based combat can be tedious

If one were to take Planescape: Torment and, changing nothing else, switch to TB combat, the result would be miserable for many. You'd be stopped midstride in every Hive back alley to perform the same boring actions on meaningless thugs and zombies.

This isn’t what we’re going to do.

Turn-based combat certainly can be tedious, but that comes down to encounter design. As we stated during the Kickstarter, Torment will have no trash mobs—those hordes of filler battles that require little thought from the player. That type of gameplay is at odds with our emphasis on the story and character development, so each Crisis in Torment will be hand-crafted. It will have narrative relevance and consequences. We'll iterate on them until each one is a quality encounter and provides the experience we seek for that moment in the game.

If any combat situation in Torment were tedious, it wouldn’t be because it's turn-based. It would be because we failed in our goal. And our Crises aren’t just combat. They contain exploration, dialogue, and time-relevant actions and events that can exist outside of combat, like pursuits, environmental puzzles, and application of special skills. You’re going to have to work throughout the game toward your goals, and the Crisis concept is a primary way that we put your intentions to the test.

We understand the importance to you of combat not being tedious. Emphasis on encounter design is important for any CRPG, but for Torment, the bar will be even higher – we believe that through well designed encounters, and extensive gameplay iteration on them, we’ll be able to address the majority of the concerns expressed by those who favored RTwP.

Comment #2: Turn-Based combat can break immersion

"Immersion" is a tricky term that can mean a lot of things, but generally this comment is referring to the jarring sense a player gets when they're walking through a town and suddenly the whole world stops because, say, a feral dog saw them coming down the street.

Again, this isn't what we're going to do. In general, we don’t plan to “surprise” you with a Crisis. Through the design of the areas and the pacing of the game, you’ll know when and where combat is a possibility. The situation will feel tense and in some cases, you will be explicitly initiating the Crisis. This doesn’t mean we won’t ever ambush you, of course, but if we do, it will be very deliberate and not an arbitrary event.

We get that you don’t want to be pulled out of the game in this way and we’ll look for ways to keep you in control and prevent Crises from disrupting the normal flow of the game.

That said, Torment isn’t an action game. Real time doesn’t pass in conversations, for example – you have as much time as you want to decide your choice. And while exploration occurs in real-time, it won’t include twitch elements. All of your decision-making throughout the game will consistently be free from real-time considerations. Torment is a game about thinking and deliberation and will not have any actual time pressure, so turn-based combat will maintain a more consistent feel.

Comment #2a: Turn-Based combat isn’t realistic

A variation of the concern about immersion is that TB gameplay isn’t realistic. In a real battle, you don’t patiently observe while your opponents orderly take turns one at a time.

This is true, but the lack of realism is inherent in most videogame combat and gameplay (again, turn-based conversations come to mind), and RTwP combat isn’t immune to this issue. What we strive for isn’t realism, but creating an immersive experience that allows you to suspend your disbelief. In other words, realism is not at the core of Torment’s party-based combat.

That said, we will strive to make the combats as dynamic and visceral as possible – attacked characters will animate appropriately when struck instead of standing lifelessly, for example, or perhaps having readied actions such as overwatch or interrupts to take actions on the opponent’s turn. We will maintain tension and flow, creating the sense that you are in actual danger and making your tactical and strategic decisions matter.

Comment #3: Controlling the entire party in Turn-Based can be boring

The idea behind this concern is that if only one character in your party is relevant to the combat (e.g., it’s in a narrow passageway or a specific skill/weapon is needed for some aspect of it, etc.) then gameplay gets bogged down. It’s not fun to have to skip most of your characters’ turns, cycling back to the one character who can actually do something.

This problem also comes down to encounter design, and we’ll be paying close attention to this aspect in our specific Crisis designs. Strong support of ranged combat will help, as melee-focused battles can exacerbate this problem. The Numenera rules also help here because skills, while beneficial, generally aren’t required to accomplish specific tasks, and Effort can be expended to give any character a better chance of success at tasks outside their character build. Adam discussed how this works in Update 21 (in the context of dialogue, though it applies to Crisis gameplay as well), but we’ll copy it here again so you don’t have to search for it.

Using skills will be different, too (side note: I say "will," but we're still in pre-production, so any of this can change). Say there's a difficult task you want to attempt—lying to a prison guard or deciphering the text on an ancient puzzle box. Typically, in D&D-style RPGs for example, if you don't have the associated skill, your chances of success are very low, or you might not be able to attempt the task at all. In Numenera, all such tasks are treated the same, and anyone can try them. Training in a related skill or skills will lower the difficulty of the task, but even if you're untrained, you can still apply Effort.

Effort is a concept from the Numenera tabletop game. Essentially you spend points out of the appropriate stat pool (Might, Speed, or Intellect) to lower the difficulty of a task. The idea is, even if you've never been trained in lock picking, a very smart or dexterous character can, with some Effort, increase their chances of cracking a lock.

Your stat pools are renewable with rest. And of course, all of this is balanced. If you're trying to crack a combination lock created by a culture that died out millions of years ago, which requires a combination of smells rather than integers, well . . . you'd have to have a high-level character specialized in the task, who spent all the Intellect they had on Effort, just to make the task possible. That character would still have to roll ridiculously well.

Effort provides more options to customize your character and tackle obstacles. If there's a task you want to attempt—even if it's something normally contrary to your character build—you still have a chance of succeeding if you can use enough Effort. On the other hand, someone who has trained or specialized in that sort of task will have a greater chance of success, and will maintain that edge in similar tasks throughout the game.

Note also that party members can “assist” others in particular skill-based tasks, boosting their chances for success.

In short, we’re fully aware that cycling can be a painful way to play, and that this aspect of gameplay is important to you, and we’ll design the Crises to keep your entire party engaged.

Comment #4: You should implement both RTwP and TB and make it a gameplay option

This solution may sound ideal, but it wouldn’t give anybody what they really want. Area and encounter design needs of the two systems are very different. Designing for both would dilute the quality of the encounters for one or both systems, and most likely require so much time and resources as to impact the rest of the game. In a deep RPG like ours, where combat isn't even the focus, trying to implement two combat systems would lead to an inferior game across the board.

Comment #5: Planescape: Torment had Real-Time with Pause combat, so the new Torment should too

This is a reasonable perspective and valid point of view. Shouldn't we stick with what made the original great?

But is RTwP combat what made Planescape: Torment great? For some of you, the combat may have been an important part of your PST experience, and we hope that you’ll find the combat in Torment: Tides of Numenera to be at least equally enjoyable. But we don't think PST’s combat system was what most players loved about the game.

We believe PST is considered one of the greatest RPGs of all-time, not because its combat was Real-Time w/ Pause, but because of its emphasis on the narrative and on role-playing your character. We explained this in the four pillars we described in the Kickstarter, which are the foundation for Torment: Tides of Numenera:

 1. A Deep, Thematically Satisfying Story
 2. A World Unlike Any Other
 3. A Rich, Personal Narrative
 4. Reactivity, Choice, and Real Consequences

We’re using all four pillars to influence and reinforce our Crisis and combat design. Throughout the campaign, we stressed that we would find an approach for combat that worked well with these pillars. With the approach we have planned – including turn-based combat – we hope to integrate more narrative and more choice and consequence into the combat experience.

Though Planescape: Torment is the starting point for many of our design decisions, Torment: Tides of Numenera was never intended to be a game that, by default, duplicates everything PST did. It is a thematic successor that is inspired by PST, not derivative of it. The themes we are succeeding are the things that made Planescape: Torment a classic – the four pillars and other elements as described in our vision document  – and we don’t see the specific combat system as core to PST’s legacy. We have several of the people from the PST team involved in the project and we hope that you continue to trust that we will deliver the type of CRPG experience you crave.

"The Planescape: Torment experience was never defined by its combat. In Torment: Tides of Numenera, the combat is intended to complement both the narrative systems and the basic gameplay mechanics. It is a challenging decision for the team to make, and I respect and support their decision to choose turn-based."

-- Chris Avellone, Lead Designer of Planescape: Torment; Creative Director at Obsidian Entertainment

Comment #5a: Why all this focus on combat? Planescape: Torment wasn't even about that

This is kind of the opposite sentiment as the previous comment, or rather it's the other side of the same coin. Rest assured that combat is not, and never has been, our primary focus, as you can see in the four pillars above. Torment is very much about the story, the characters, the conversations, and the world, and we are focusing most of our efforts in those areas – it wasn't until six months after the Kickstarter that we even started talking seriously about combat in our updates.

If it feels like we are suddenly focused on combat, it's only because our recent updates have had that focus. In a month or two we'll talk about something else—art creation or story design or exploration gameplay or something—and then it'll feel like we're 100% focused on that.

Moving Forward with You

We're excited about what we have planned, and as you see more of what we’re doing, we think you’ll be excited, too. We’ll be talking about other aspects of the design in the near term, but we’ll certainly be talking more about Crises and combat down the road. We hope that you’ll continue to trust our judgment and dedication to the project and to you. Remember that you’ll have future opportunities to influence the game’s development, including aspects of its combat. We’ll be seeking your feedback in the future and you’ll be able to weigh in on details later to help us hone the experience.

We're grateful that we can solicit your feedback and your input throughout this process. This style of development would never have been possible even five years ago, let alone fifteen. It's encouraging to see your interest and passion in what we're doing. We learn a lot from your comments and posts on these topics, and we come that much closer to creating something great.

We will not take for granted the trust that you placed in us this past spring. We are making this game for you, our backers. When you play Torment, we want you to feel you trusted us wisely. We’re not looking for mass market success – our only metric is your satisfaction, and we are working hard toward that goal every day. Thanks for your support and understanding,

Kevin Saunders
Project Lead

P.S. We have a couple more things to say, but they’re more about our communication and our gratitude, so we’ve put them on tumblr to keep this update focused on combat.

Wesley Hodgson, zmonkey, and 208 more people like this update.

Comments

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    1. Missing avatar

      Emeraude on

      @Yaniv:

      Oh inXile did make clear they had a preference for TB, and why shouldn't they have ? It wasn't a democratic process in which they were supposed to be neutral arbitrators. They clearly stated their preferences, and the reasons behind them (which do make sens if you dug a bit: have you given a look to both the Crisis and Effort sub-system ? Or the Numenera rules ? They do seem like they'll transition better in a TB video-game, I can agree with that. As for adaptation of the Wasteland 2 *tools* - no necessarily systems, of course it's a good thing for us: that's limited-in-supply man hours best spent *elsewhere*) and that the vote was advisory.

      As since the thing really caught steam, the divide between people treating Kickstarter as pre-order, and those treating it as patronage is showing in the current debate.

      Personally I come from the latter. If anything, inXile didn't even have to discuss anything past the basic pitch of the game as far as I'm concerned. The idea of Kickstarter for me was to get rid of publisher/market influence to allow artists/craftsmen to produce a thing they felt the desire to make but couldn't because of constant meddling and market pressure.

      Replacing publishers by an army of demanding backers each thinking they have a right and a say to the creation process would be going from bad to worse if anything.

      That being said, I commend hem for trying to have that conversation anyway.

    2. Lastan, The Penultimate Castoff on

      @Kelvin:
      "Not everyone enjoys TB and not everyone enjoys RTwP. Hence why it does not really work as an analogy."
      Not everyone enjoys the draft from the air conditioning, which may influence the way you'll install it. So even this completely-missing-the-point objection fails.
      "And yes they could have decided beforehand. I don't get why they 'couldn't'."
      Well, they *could have*, I guess, but they would have decided on much less information. It's not at all the same thing deciding on a whim and some story outlines you have ready at campaign launch and deciding after quite a lot of proper pre-production. When inXile launched the campaign, they didn't know how big the game would be, how many people would work on it, and not even how they would set up encounters and crises. They didn't know and they couldn't have known; it's something that evolves along with many other aspects of the game. Or any other project, really.
      The game was not *designed* at the time of Kickstarter campaign launch. It was *conceptualized*. So at the time any system could have been made to work - and if necessary, RTwP could have been made to work even at this stage *if enough people had wanted it*. Not enough people did.

      "And I never said their next campaign would be unsuccessful (Or even hoped it failed), maybe you should read things more carefully"
      My apologies. I had - likely influenced by a number of butthurt posts I'd read immediately beforehand - interpreted the "it" in "they will not make it" as "the campaign" instead of "the mistake". English is a bitch in this regard, both due to homonymy and the abundance of phrasal verbs. Still, this is my fault alone; I should have read more slowly. :)

    3. Missing avatar

      Yaniv on

      Conspiracy theory? Really?
      -
      You must be naive, or stupid, or hypocrite, or just blind from inXile idolizing to say that they did not prettified the TB combat system. The arguments supporting the TB (as provided by inXile) are not objective. Truer to tabletop, advantage? Companion AI becomes less necessary, advantage? Adapt Wasteland 2’s combat system, advantage to who?. Honest man would write an objective pro/const.
      -
      -
      Theory? Really?
      -
      They interfered with the natural voting process by influencing the backers. The following quote shows nicely how inXile can influence the ... people.
      -
      "So when the developers who work full time on a game I invested in suggest something after careful consideration, letting me weigh in on the matter, I will most certainly listen to what they have to say on the matter before I reach a conclusion. And yes, that does mean I will let myself be persuaded. I will let myself be persuaded by people with much more experience in both gaming and game design than I can boast with, just as I'll let myself be persuaded by a doctor, a plumber, or a hairdresser in their own areas of expertise."
      -
      And you can repeat the bullshit claiming that with one combat system the game will be good and with the other not, the fact is that it is a subjective thing. inXile themselves said, in the combat video during the campaign, that the type of combat system does not matter and what really important are details (implementation, integration, etc.).

    4. dungeoncrawl on

      This is inXile's first, real crisis with backers (albeit an unfair one given they've not failed to deliver something they promised). I'm interested to see how they navigate it. I think we need Brian Fargo to respond to help calm things down a bit.

    5. LuckyLuigi on

      "Ultimately, there are no losers here."

      Except the people that lost ! :)

      I am one of those and while I am disappointed at the outcome, I'm looking forward to seeing how turn based will be implemented. I recommend posting a more specific combat scenario and how it plays out in the near future so the 'losers' know what they will be getting. I appreciate the explanation but it is rather vague.

    6. Roman Leser on

      @ARustyFirePlace: So you missed (until now!) Update 24 from Nov 6, 2013, Update 25 from Nov 21 on Kickstarter or you didn't read them (not even the TL;DR section at the beginning of each update)? And you avoided the torment forums for the same time? But you wonder that you didn't knew about the vote? Well.....

      But I keep you on track what to do now:
      Either make a whiny and offensive comment about how inXile tricked you into backing, by not revealing that the combat system might be turn based and how unfair it is that there even was a vote about it and that you hate them now and want a refund and still the game no matter that it is ruined for you, for your children and grandchildren and how they took a giant cr*p on the legacy of Planescape by doing this and that your life will never be the same again because you are now unable to trust anybody anymore for the rest of your life..
      OR attack the people who posted such comments...
      OR say that you don't care and that everybody should get along with the result
      OR try to remember the original combats in PT without rolling your eyes...
      OR shrug, grin, grab some popcorn and take a seat beside me and enjoy the sow here while we wait for TtoN... ;)

    7. Missing avatar

      Kelvin Baillie on

      @Lastan: I get what you were trying to say, that they are professionals and have greater knowledge on this. But I'm trying to explain its different because people have preferences on combat mechanics. Not everyone enjoys TB and not everyone enjoys RTwP. Hence why it does not really work as an analogy.

      And yes they could have decided beforehand. I don't get why they 'couldn't'. It was a choice they made, not something they couldn't decide. And while yes I understand that its not making the majority of the game. But its still a decent portion of it. How many games do you see people complain about mini-games they are forced to do and really hate, even though its only 1 small segment of a game? It has an effect.

      And I never said their next campaign would be unsuccessful (Or even hoped it failed), maybe you should read things more carefully instead of just trying to insult everyone for... whatever reason it is you feel the need to do so for. I said they were unlikely to make the same mistake again, as in letting the community decide the combat mechanics are what has happened here.

    8. Missing avatar

      ARustyFirePlace on

      I didn't even know there was a vote.....

    9. Lastan, The Penultimate Castoff on

      @Khellian:
      "There is no excuse for comments like this: 'chili-pepper-and-ginger-buttplug butthurt; spoiled children'."
      Sure there is. I actually explained it in my previous comment; you might have read it.

      "You have been way worse than most of the 'spoiled brats and bullies' yourself, but you seem oblivious to it."
      I should hardly think so.
      This could only be true if you thought something mind-bogglingly stupid, e.g. that I was at any point talking about all RTwP proponents. If I had, I'd be much in the wrong, and you'd be right. But that interpretation doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
      Thus I have to ascribe this to cultural differences. Apparently I don't know much about your culture, but in the gods-forsaken backwater I come from, it is not worse to mock a spoiled brat than to be one. So when grown-up people, people old enough to a) be nostalgic about PS:T and b) own credit cards, bitch and moan about being misled even though it had all been perfectly clear even to a non-native speaker like me, I surmise they are being whiny little bitches. And I ridicule them.
      If that makes me worse than people who ask for refunds and hope inXile fail in their next crowdfunding campaing, *so be it*.

    10. Nameless on

      @Lastan - There is no excuse for comments like this: "chili-pepper-and-ginger-buttplug butthurt; spoiled children". You have been way worse than most of the "spoiled brats and bullies" yourself, but you seem oblivious to it. Anyway, dropping this now, you obviously dont get it.

    11. Khalaq on

      Dear Kevin:

      As one of the people who voted for RTwP combat, I would like to thank you for your lengthy explanation. You spent a lot of time and effort addressing our concerns and explaining how you plan to address them. I, for one, appreciate all of that. It is important to me that you and your staff have a clear plan in mind of how you are going to do combat in Torment, even if I am not yet able to visualize the final result. (Let's be real, here. I'm not going to know what the game is like until I play it.)

      I am sorry for those who feel the need to withdraw their support or try to "force" the rest of us to do things their way, but in the end, a certain amount of trust needs to be placed in those who are making the game. If the game designers feel that TB combat is the way to go in order to create the superior game they have in mind, I have faith that they know what they're doing. After all, this isn't their first rodeo....

    12. Missing avatar

      Mloren - Obsidian Order on

      I just want to raise one other concern I have that hasn't been addressed here in the hopes that you have a solution:

      Now this may not happen with the way you are designing the crisis system but sometimes in TB games you get to the end of an encounter and an enemy flees or there is one enemy left that is a long way away, and it takes you multiple turns to get to them and it get's quite frustrating to move your entire party one by one across the level for 3 or 4 turns just to find the one last enemy that's hiding in a corner and stopping real time from resuming.
      I hope this isn't an issue.

      One solution would be to not have enemies flee since that's often the cause (or if they flee, they just escape the combat and are gone so you don't have to chase them down). Another would be to make sure enemies are never a long way away in the encounter design.
      Another solution could be to dynamically give the player more movement or something if all enemies are more than a certain distance away, to kind of free up the players actions a bit if the enemy is a long way away.

    13. Lastan, The Penultimate Castoff on

      @Kelvin:
      Good job on taking apart my analogy in completely the wrong way. Much logic. Great fail. Wow.
      And no, the developers couldn't have decided on this before because it is not a crucial part of the game and they didn't know at the time how everything would be done.
      Oh. One more thing. When they next run a crowdfunding campaign, their success will be influenced primarily by the success of Wasteland 2. Sure, the vocal butthurt minority (and I am fairly certain it's a rather small minority) of disgruntled RTwP proponents might decide to boycott the effort, but I doubt it could turn out as anything but a statistical blip.

      @Khellian:
      "Sure, demanding refunds and spinning conspiracy theories may not be the nicest thing, but that is not cause enough for the namecalling (and worse), both personal and general, going on here."
      Well, actually, it is. It really, really, is.
      If someone is acting like a spoiled brat or a bully, it is quite right to call them out on it. And given that we have few ways of sanctioning unacceptable behavior in a discussion such as this, this tried-and-true method works... predictably.

    14. Gene on

      @LC You're right, I should make more of an effort to not appear I'm lumping in all RTWP backers with that sort of behaviour which I'm not. Apologies if I've come across that way, it's unfair and not my intention.

    15. LordCrash on

      @Gene
      Actually VERY FEW people claim to want a refund. Don't act like this was a usual behaviour of RTwP fans.... :/

    16. Gene on

      @Khellian In this instance enough to characterise their behaviour as antisocial, which is the worst I think I've done.

    17. Nameless on

      @Gene - Big differense between not respecting and activly treating someone bad, isn't there? Do you activly treat everyone you dont respect IRL poorly and think they deserve it?

    18. Gene on

      @Khellian If the devs had promised RTWP and didn't deliver it, I would respect them and treat them differently. I can't respect people who have such a sense of entitlement they feel they should be given refunds due to their carelessness.

      All this said combat will be relatively minor, so I'm definitely looking forward to getting off this topic sooner rather than later.

    19. LordCrash on

      "Adrià Amor 1 day ago

      Dear @LC and many other hysteric RTwP fanboys, please stop using this demagogic point which assumes that because of defenders of TB are more flexible, and don't care so much on the battles but more on the narrative and history, it is more important your posture is taken into consideration because you really care about combat as a central aspect of this videogame experience. Would you be so kind to leave this semi fascist argumentation? It even reminds me of those douche-bags that usually smoked in front of kids and families in bars and restaurants because "nobody hasn't verbalized their concerns before" or those others that defend the right to carry a gun (and use it) in the name of his individual freedom (while others than don't care as much about "such" important things don't have to). This endless crying of some individuals is as surprising as exhausting is to read...."

      Do you even know what you're talking about? I stopped reading after "semi fascist, sorry....

      You must be out of your mind to accuse others to be anything like that in a discussion about video game system. And there is no demagogic point after all when people talk about experiences in video games. If you are not interested in people with other opinions than your own (which also is just the opinion of an individual person) you should stop reading and stop writing anything here.

      Some people....

    20. Nameless on

      @Gene - So just because someone is dissapointed and ask for a refund they should be treated badly? Surely you are joking? We obviously don't agree on how people should be treated, so I will just drop it.

      Anyway, I am really looking forward to the next update from inXile. Hopefully they can give us some more details on how they indend to handle these crisis.

    21. Gene on

      @Khellian I think people doing those other things shouldn't be treated all that well either, I haven't disparaged anyone that's merely expressed disappointed.

    22. Nameless on

      @Gene - Ok, so A post. And if it is as you say, not classy at all. But still no need to generalize and treat the rest of the dissapointed folks badly.

    23. Gene on

      @Khellian There was a post (not sure it was here) that was basically a veiled threat to sabotage the metacritic user score, not classy.

    24. Nameless on

      @Gene - What do you mean by veiled threts? Sure, demanding refunds and spinning conspiracy theories may not be the nicest thing, but that is not cause enough for the namecalling (and worse), both personal and general, going on here.

    25. Gene on

      @Khellian I think it hasn't been all that bad, I just wasn't expecting people to be demanding, refunds, making veiled threats and spinning conspiracy theories.

      It's fine to express preferences and disappointment, it's not ok to do the the other.

    26. Nameless on

      @Gene - "Some behaviour is just bizarre, I can't imagine seeing this sort of behaviour in other places." Then you haven't looked in many places. Crazy people are everywere, even here. Still don't se why you feel the need to use negative steriotypes and generalizations about the people here. It just comes acreoss as trolling and flaming. And I actually feel that the people attacking the dissapointed RTwP people have been behaving MUCH worse in general.

    27. Gene on

      @dawn I'm not saying that all RTWP Bioware fans are antisocial but the one's making conspiracy theories, veiled threats, those who previously jumped on the bandwagon personally insulting Heppler, etc, certainly are.

      Some behaviour is just bizarre, I can't imagine seeing this sort of behaviour in other places.

      http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/325/index/7926723

    28. Dawn_
      Superbacker
      on

      Since i've been there i've seen people being sad, disappointed, angered which i can understand and can be understood.

      But i've also seen from the others part the "winners" some real troll, judgemental individual, provocating people "all Hail TB" i didn't see this type of stupid behaviour from the RtwP fans.

      They mostly attacked or were angered at InXile but they didn't attack the TB fans as a person.

    29. Florence Harrison on

      I voted for RTwP mostly for the nostalgia factor, honestly. I love that oldschool style of combat, it possesses a distinct charm. That said, after reading all of this, I'm quite confident that the turn-based combat will be perfectly enjoyable.

      At the end of the day, I echo the sentiment that combat is not that important in this game anyway, and most likely not why a lot of us are interested in it.

      The more I think about it, the more I'm glad they went with this. Pandering to nostalgia would have been easy, but its certainly better that they go for the system that actually fits the design of the game they have in mind.

      I've played quite a few games with excellent turn based combat, and I'm confident that this will be great too.

    30. Dawn_
      Superbacker
      on

      Not every people who were for RtwP are anti-social or Bioware fans, it'll be nice if you could stop some stupid generalization. As to compare their crisis system to the RtwP, it's true there hasn't been a real argument about that.

      But i don't see anyone who have seen/play it to argue it's better and fits the game better except the biased developpers vision. Most RtwP fans aren't comapring a system to another they mostly voted RtwP for the sake of nostalgia.

      If you can't understand that then i can't help you. There is nowhere a technical comparison, since you can't compare what you can't try. But people who voted or wanted RtwP, have the right to be disappointed.

      I won't add anymore the fact that the way it was done really as i've said already "But more because of the opacity behind it and the lack of respect for those who wanted/voted Rtwp. That single sentence saying "we thought TB would gives the better experience" give both the doubt of their intentions and it's a disguised finger at the one who wanted RtwP."

    31. ☆ dlux ☆ on

      >"Personally I think it's the 'Bioware factor"
      Seriously, what do BioWare and their fans have to do with this drama? xD

      What an absentminded comment.

    32. Missing avatar

      Kelvin Baillie on

      @Lastan - Unfortunately your air-conditioning example does not exactly take hold here. You're not going to be playing on your air-con. Thats a structural air-flow question. This is a 'what will entertain me the most' question. And while I am a person who enjoys TB & RTwP (I do prefer RTwP though) as I've said the developer should have decided this before the Kickstarter. If they had done that all drama avoided, but then they likely would have received a lot less funding. Its a mistake I'm sure they will have learnt from after all of this and if they ever go to Kickstarter again they will not make it again.

      @Gene - Really? BioWare fans are anti-social? Why do people feel the need to lump groups together. When you get huge fan-bases the likes that BioWare and Call of Duty get, there are always going to be more vocal/rude people. So it may not necessarily be a 'higher proportion' but just because their fanbases are so massive there are more of these rude people as a result.

      I consider myself a BioWare fan (Though I hope one day BioWare gets away from EA, they are a plague on the Earth) and while yes I have expressed my feelings against the way the developers have done this. I do not believe I've been rude about it.

    33. Weresheep of Sin AKA Stefan
      Superbacker
      on

      Wow ... is this still going on? I voted for turn-based, but would have been happy with Rtwp, too. I did not like combat in Torment ... actually, I tried to play it again some weeks ago and quit because of the combat. But I will start again, the game - as I remember it - is too good to be put off by its combat. And combat is not the main focus, so I'll still enjoy it.

      I definitely feel that combat will even be less important with Numenera (no trash mobs, often / always avoidable ...) ... so why the outrage? Would be interesting to see the reaction of the turn-based crowd, had the decision had been for Rtwp.

      Those folks quoting from the video ("We're going to make the combat system YOU want, YOU are going to tell us") ... well, they are: there is a (small) majority for turn-based ... small, but majority is majority. Do I like every outcome of elections in my country? No. Do I accept them? Yes, because what would we do without? Is there a better way to find a solution? Maybe ... but this is what we've got and it's based on a general consensus: After the decision has been made (based on a - no matter how close - vote), we accept and move on.

    34. Gene on

      @Lastan That's true there hasn't been a RTWP supporter that's made a constructive case as to why that system is a more compelling fit for the crisis concept and other design decisions the developers have made so far. That's the sort of input needed for devs to change their minds.

    35. Nameless on

      Anyone using "chili-pepper-and-ginger-buttplug butthurt; spoiled children" to describe others have no right to point fingers, seriously. The fact that you don't realise that you are behaving just as bad is just sad.

    36. Lastan, The Penultimate Castoff on

      @Gene:
      Well, I can understand vindictiveness against the EA. A bit. ;)
      But I neither know nor care too much about publishers or history; I just enjoy certain games. So I wouldn't know whether this is the Bioware factor or something (completely?) different. I just see lots of chili-pepper-and-ginger-buttplug butthurt; spoiled children taking their toys and leaving the playground because they aren't having their own way for the sake of having their own way.
      I have mentioned I'd voted "don't care". I really don't; I trust the devs to make the right choice in this matter as well as at least a large majority of others. I can play either; I have played both. What is more, I expect T:ToN to make this a non-issue; if I catch myself thinking "this combat would be much better if the combat system were different", I daresay it'll be a symptom of much larger problems with the game. I mean, the combat system in PS:T was far from perfect, yet it worked - and I've recommended the game to a number of non-gamers practically apologizing because yeah, there's some fighting and monster hunting there, too. Combat-shombat. It's the story. The characters. The interactions. The possibilities.
      Sure, I don't *mind* combat. But if it's all I want, I can fire up so many games that center on nothing *but* combat.

    37. Gene on

      @Khellian The Bioware crowd isn't as bad as the Call of Duty crowd when it comes to antisocial behaviour but it's certainly worse than the adventure game community.

    38. Nameless on

      Wow, my head spins at all the generalization and anecdotal evidence being thrown around here.

    39. Gene on

      @lastan My head spins, I should say

    40. Gene on

      @lastan My spins at the sour grapes and clutching at straws. Personally I think it's the 'Bioware factor'. I'm not saying that all Bioware fans are anti-social (obviously not as you may be among them and I also enjoyed Baldur's Gate) but there's a higher proportion of people I would describe as 'not nice' among Bioware fans (particularly contemporary fans).

      There was such a high degree of vindictiveness from them against Bioware itself, EA, Jenniffer Heppler. I have no idea why this is but many comments on here seem to reinforce the anecdotal evidence in my mind once again, as another vindictive campaign is launched.

    41. Lastan, The Penultimate Castoff on

      Wow.

      Just... wow.

      All the rage; the conspiracy theories; the mud-slinging (or maybe monkey feces throwing; I'm still undecided on that score)... seriously, guys?
      AFAICT, inXile have been very up-front and open about everything, including the combat system and its development. And they've been perfectly clear; I haven't been following all updates religiously, but I did read and watch pretty much everything combat-related. And I see no discrepancies. You may invent some by pulling stuff out of context and reinterpreting them through your assumptions and other preconceived notions, but it was clear from day one that the true nature of the combat system would be decided on at some later point in the development.

      As for the laughable objection that inXile have prettied up the TB option... seriously?
      Yes, it was very clear that they preferred that option. It was also clear why; the reasons were clearly listed and explained. But here's the catch: they had every right to do so.
      We were not deciding on whether RTwP or TB was the better system overall. We were voting on which we'd rather see in T:ToN. And it was well within the developers' rights to explain why they thought one option to be better than the other. Really. The guy who installed my air conditioning disagreed with my idea where to install it. When he explained why, I agreed; he was the more experienced, the professional, and also correct.
      So when the developers who work full time on a game I invested in suggest something after careful consideration, letting me weigh in on the matter, I will most certainly listen to what they have to say on the matter before I reach a conclusion. And yes, that does mean I will let myself be persuaded. I will let myself be persuaded by people with much more experience in both gaming and game design than I can boast with, just as I'll let myself be persuaded by a doctor, a plumber, or a hairdresser in their own areas of expertise. That's because I don't consider myself a fanatic, which I feel some RTwP proponents seem to be.

    42. Missing avatar

      stonefish on

      great update, go for it

    43. ryukenden on

      Nooooo, All past infinity engine games are RTwP. We want that to return!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    44. Ahmed on

      I trust your judgement. Even if I disagree, I am not the person who made the previous game great. So, more than sticking to the roots, it's better to make the game great. =)

    45. Missing avatar

      Yaniv on

      @Dominik Ludwicki
      Not been clear from the start is actually trick us to support this project. They played on our nostalgia by adding Torment to the name in order to the make us believe they are selling us "Planescape: Torment" experience while they actually fuc...
      -
      Regarding Evidence no 2 section 2, the most important thing is that they unfairly a). openly supported in TB system b). prettified TB combat system. By doing that they actually sway the vote and acted in a dishonest way.

    46. Nameless on

      @Christian - Whats upp with the ADD insults? You just look stupid with comments like that.

    47. Christian Gilligan on

      Turn-based, then. Alright, good times, sounds like a plan.

      Holy shit, you folks need some perspective. Hell, I barely REMEMBER fighting from Torment. Just dialogue, and choices, and awesome consequences. Sometimes I think I killed stuff? Mostly, though, the story. And having played a whole lot of games with TB combat I cen't for the life of me remember a time it 'broke immersion' or any other heavy-handed bullshit like that. You ADD kids need to work on your goldfish attention spans.

    48. Missing avatar

      Xelosu on

      The net of lies is unending just realized: "with some interpreting the vote to be absolute rather than advisory.”
      Please examine what the guy is talking in here: http://www.youtube.com/watch…
      I am not native speaker, but I hear there ("the combat system YOU want, and "YOU are going to tell us"). This do not seem to me like he is telling me my vote will only be advisory...

    49. Missing avatar

      Xelosu on

      Oh and one more thing: "Spiritual successor" is a phrase with establish meaning in gaming industry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_successor . So people were fully entitled to assume that non-touched topics (on the main page) will just be "(..) the same elements, themes, and styles as its source material.
      This assumption was based on what was written not from the blue sky...