by inXile entertainment
Either way this game develops, I'm just excited that I will be a part of the experience. That being said I hope the devs do not listen too much to the people on here and continue the path they were going for.
I want the story to be amazing!
"For the record the devs started development favouring RTWP according to Colin McComb, but the shift to turn-based occurred later on in development as it fit better with some of their narrative focus and pre-production concepts. Don't know his exact words as I'm quoting someone who was paraphrasing him on RPG Codex."
Well it is matter of trust. I believe that behind the above statement there are financial reasons.
@Dawn - I agree with you. I think InXile purposefully kept the combat open and their views on it neutral to the end to get the most money they could. Feels a bit dirty considering this is a Kickstarter and people are giving their own personal money. Would also have preferred if they had decided it from the start so this never came up or at least stated at the beginning it was almost definately gonna be TB.
@Nathan - If anything so far is to go on, they won't listen unless its the vast vast majority of people who want something.
As others have said, I do not have any real issue with it being TB (Even if I would prefer RTwP). I just strongly dislike the way in which the decision has come about.
Let me repeat in no uncertain terms what Kevin Saunders already said; we did not know during the Kickstarter if this game would be RTwP, or TB, or even the phase-based option was still on the table. During the Kickstarter design was in an earlier stage, as was system testing, heck, think about it, the Numenera systems weren't even finished and out yet. It should not be particularly hard to believe we were undecided, with a slight lean towards RTwP, and said so from the start.
We also always avoided using the term spiritual successor, and have consistently used the term thematic successor and defined front and center what that means to us.
@Thomas, don't bother.
Some people have made up their minds on the matter and they will not let mere facts stand in their way. Anything you say can and will be used against you in the most hostile manner possible.
For some reason, some people here view the shift from RTwP to TB as a personal affront - betrayal, even.
@Lastan - "Anything you say can and will be used against you in the most hostile manner possible."
Thats funny, coming from you...
I also think we should end the myth of "original PS:T had almsot no combat". Because it is not true. You could not end a LOT of quests without fighting and killing monsters.
I also thnik that inXile entertainment chose this system because they were more familiar with it and had a similar version already done for Wasteland, but hey, I won't judge until I play.
"We also always avoided using the term spiritual successor, and have consistently used the term thematic successor and defined front and center what that means to us."
If you like to resort to semantic then you said "a game crafted in the torment tradition". Crafted in the tradition to my understanding is at least strong as spiritual successor.
BTW: Funnily, you also said "we get to know what you want and you don't get any unpleasant surprises".
@Yaniv, I don't think the result of the vote classifies as a surprise.
>Thomas Beekers said:
>"We also always avoided using the term spiritual successor, and have consistently used the
>term thematic successor and defined front and center what that means to us."
I like how Inxile obtained the rights to the Torment trademark although it was not really necessary, seeing that the game is only a thematic successor and not a spiritual succcesor. :D
>Thomas Beekers said:
>"It should not be particularly hard to believe we were undecided, with a slight lean towards
>RTwP, and said so from the start."
I am truly relieved how you guys finally figured out that RTwP combat is an inefficient absurdity and unsuitable for a game. It only took about 20 years, but now we finally know. :) If only the guys at Obsidian were as smart as you and also went turn-based on Project Eternity, then this nonsensical RTwP combat system could have finally died. Darn. Hopefully Obsidian will listen to you guys and make Project Eternity 2 a thematic sequel - with turn-based combat of course!
@dlux Project Eternity is RTWP, but it's a new system being built from the ground up. There are going to be a minority of upset people who fire up Eternity and have a non-vancian magic system, no xp for kills, and systems that feel closer to Dragon Age and modern RPGs, than to the Infinity engine games.
"I don't think the result of the vote classifies as a surprise."
It's not that important but it is the surprise of less involved backer that get TB game while he expect to get RTwP.
I'm just wondering if the voting would have again been a draw if they kept their mouth shut before the vote and didn't say they favor TB...
Either way, we'll live and see how all of this turns out. It may be a masterpiece after all. It's just infuriating that, after all the excitement I'm sure every backer has had inside them from the moment this Kickstarter went up, it WON'T be the Torment we all wanted and have envisioned since 1999...
@dlux please... you make me feel bad for voting Turn-Base because i saw how Crisis will clearly fit better with Turn-base.
Turn base games like XCom are so predictable and boring if not for cheap tricks that didn't come from the Turn-Base system, but add-on that are unrelated to turn-base. Perma-death (ie, this is so easy that you should never die if you're good, else you get heavily punished). Forcing a lower skill cap with a Russian Roulette RNG accuracy system (ie. luck > your plan). Hiding enemies and allowing patrols so you can agro multiple groups if unlucky (since it's turn base, you can't react to patrols by moving back after you see them, so it's purely luck based). These gimmicks can be applied just as easily to real-time systems!!!! When you want to see the value of turn-base system vs real-time, you have to strip out all the gimmicks and look at the core of the system.
Here are some examples.
In turn-based, enemies stand still for you to aim your AOE. In RTwP you need to calculate the projectile speed and distance to hit multiple moving targets (and avoid multiple moving allies).
In turn-based, your victim always wait for you to finish your action from start to finish. It is very rare that actions take more than 1 turn (except as handicap to bosses to make it easier for players). In RTwP, it is usually much easier to implement interrupts, and planning ahead so that your actions will not be interrupted is always a factor to consider.
The reason why many RTwP games tend to be shallow is because designers dumb them down for accessibility reasons. It is not because of the inadequacy of the format. Look at Dragon Age 2 on Normal vs Nightmare difficulty. In normal difficulty, both of the factors i stated above are nullified because there's no friendly fire and low damage so you always tank-n-spank then simply AOE on tank. Also because enemy damage is so low, you don't need to worry about interrupting them, nor worry about your actions being interrupted. Try beating Dragon Age 2 on Nightmare, it has been nerfed in many patches so anyone should be able to do it as long as they think beyond the basic level of tactics (you hit me, i heal, then i hit you, repeat) and start utilizing the real time system for things like interrupt, constant formation shift, and aiming at moving target (so your front-line doesn't need to take damage to hold your target in place).
In any case, I'm happy with Torment team's decision because Crisis are not pure tactical combat, but a platform for RP scenarios. Since the core of RP scenarios are dialogue, puzzle, and skill challenges, the best system to choose should be the least costly and simplest one that will not get in the way of implementing interesting ideas. Imagine that Turn-base is a tablet PC, and RTwP is a top-end gaming desktop. One is vastly superior in raw power, but there is a time and place where the other will shine regardless of strength.
"I am truly relieved how you guys finally figured out that RTwP combat is an inefficient absurdity and unsuitable for a game. It only took about 20 years, but now we finally know. :) If only the guys at Obsidian were as smart as you and also went turn-based on Project Eternity, then this nonsensical RTwP combat system could have finally died. Darn. Hopefully Obsidian will listen to you guys and make Project Eternity 2 a thematic sequel - with turn-based combat of course!"
Indeed. PE would've looked to become even better than it already does had it been made TB. Really a shame they didn't go that way. Maybe next time. ;)
@Thomas Beekers I think a lot of people feel upset because when they backed they felt like they were in control but now after the vote a portion of players feel they lost control.
I think only time will heal that wound.
Also, I hate to ask but seven months of preproduction seems like a tad much. Has production started yet?
PE will be a great game with RTwP combat.
ToN will be a great game with TB combat.
I wanted RTwP for ToN but I accept that inXile will do the best they can to produce a great combat with TB.
I know people are upset but come on...asking for refunds?? calling PE out for using RTwP?? Btw, the combat in their new trailer looks amazing.
I think by now, we should have all learned about what to expect when putting your money in on a kickstarter project. Every single project I've backed has its ups and downs but I expected as much. If you feel you keep getting the short end of the stick when supporting a project perhaps its time you tell yourself, no more kickstarter investment for me.
Super disappointed by this announcement, at least Eternity will stay true to their promise of sticking to infinity engine type gameplay. I feel somewhat duped.
I trust inXile to make an enjoyable game. While I voted RTwP, I feel somewhat reassured by Kevin's update and it seems to me they know what they are doing. I'll just have to wait and see how it turns out. At the very least the update assures me they are aware of most of my concerns regarding TB.
Don't understand what all this ranting and raving is about. It's not a lot of effort to keep it polite, is it?
Oh god. It just hit me that, not only do we have to hear these guys whine over TB now.....but also when the game comes out! 'This would have been soooo much better has it been RTwP. See? We TOLD YOU how bad this was gonna be and now its proved out JUST LIKE WE SAID. PS:T was soooooo much better.' Ugh. Shoot me now.
ps. I voted for RTwP BTW.
@dungeoncrawl I agree, it's gonna be a PR disaster now. It'll be very hard for fans of RTwP to give it a fair review (myself included), although I will try!
I'd prefer something like the might and magic series had in 6 and 7. Where you enter turnbased mode if you want to get tacticool with combat. But i hope it will turn out alright, turn-based combat is my usual go to.
It's a bit strange : i received an inXile mail to invite me to activate my WL2 account to get the beta... it's strange cos my account is activated since.... the ranger center was online.
Don't notice my previous comment... its for the WL comments page
@barbarian the activation is for the beta site. it's for your feedback.
Thanks for the update & your take on it all. I voted for RTwP, but I'm used to playing TB games as well. Do I think TB combat will fit T:ToN the best though? Not yet, but I'll give you every chance to prove to me that it does between now and the release date.
Thanks for the update. I was kind of expecting RTwP, which would still have been playable, like in the original Torment. I voted TB, though, and I'm happy that this is what you will be going with.
Comment #5: Planescape: Torment had Real-Time with Pause combat, so the new Torment should too
I am very disappointed. The comment 5 says it all, If I back-up a new episode of final fantasy I am expecting TB, if I back-up a new episode of Torment I am expecting RTwP. I'll give it a try as I paid for this game but I am pretty sure that I'll soon get bored. That's a shame I trashed my money, backing for something I didn't expect. I guess that's the risk of backing this type of project.
Pillars of Eternity is getting better and better and obviously it's RTwP, so I'll have something to play around the end of 2014.
I wish you the best of luck, and hope you'll be able to change my mind as I deeply hate TB games.
Comment #3 - You guys completely misinterpreted this comment.
It's not about keeping the whole party engaged. The very fact you have to micromanage every member of the party is what's tedious, it doesn't matter WHAT they have to do.
I also am annoyed that people keep talking about the depth TB combat has. I don't find Fire Emblem Awakening or Xcom combat particularly challenging tactically. In fact, in TB combat the only times I find it difficult is when it's blatantly unfair (randomly spawning/agroing enemies you couldn't prepare for happening at the very end of your turn).
Anyone still not received their WL2 activation keys?
@Matteo Gismondi: "I am very disappointed. The comment 5 says it all, If I back-up a new episode of final fantasy I am expecting TB, if I back-up a new episode of Torment I am expecting RTwP. I'll give it a try as I paid for this game but I am pretty sure that I'll soon get bored. That's a shame I trashed my money, backing for something I didn't expect. I guess that's the risk of backing this type of project."
Torment is not really about the combat though, and that's the mistake a lot of people are making. It's not Diablo or Icewind Dale, nor is it even Baldur's Gate. Combat is more of a side dish rather than the main course - no one who has ever played Planescape Torment and thinks it's great will point to the combat as one of the things they liked.
Hopefully though you'll give it a try, since there are different types of turn-based combat in RPGs - give InXile a chance to wow you. If you say a game has "first-person shooting" in it the game could be Call of Duty, Half-Life, Serious Sam, Deus Ex or even Portal, all very different games with different combat. Give InXile constructive criticism when you play the beta (or see it being played), don't just say "I don't like the combat", say specific things you don't like and they may be able to change it. That goes for everyone else complaining too.
And the final correction - Final Fantasy XV doesn't have turn-based combat, and the series has been moving away from TB combat since XII!
@david WL2 has not been released. WL2 beta has. It was an add-on to get the beta.
@Chris - "Torment is not really about the combat though, and that's the mistake a lot of people are making. It's not Diablo or Icewind Dale, nor is it even Baldur's Gate. Combat is more of a side dish rather than the main course - no one who has ever played Planescape Torment and thinks it's great will point to the combat as one of the things they liked."
Wow, I like how you have the authority to speak for all Torment fans. Great way to give your arguments weight...
As you might have understood I am not a big fun of TB games. FF is not anymore TB? that's a good news I might try it out then thanks!
To me the combat is also important. As I said I'll try the game for sure, but I would rather prefer to see this type of "big decisions" taken during the kickstarter. It is very convenient to do if after. If I knew from the beginning that the game would be TB I, and probably some other backers, would not have given money.
Still as it is too late to get a refund I'll give it a try for sure.
I backed over a hundred games in a year spend over 10k and since i am sick, if i wasn't i woud have spend way more. But, there is more down than up, honestly.
But, i didn't mind at all. But, the way InXile mess up with this shit vote.
Giving people (if that's true) the voice to choose the combat system on a cult game where most people backed from nostalgia. Those people backed for a "spiritual sucessor" as the sentence was spammed a lot by InXile.
Now you get a complete another game because the combat system change completely the way you play. It's not anymore a "spiritual successor" but only a game using the name of Torment to make more money.
So, sincerely, i will deeply shut down and maybe completely stop backing things at all.
And we all know that if they had said it before hand it will be a TB (and i love a TB but for me Torment is a Rtwp. Point. My fond memories of the game are also linked to the combat system) they will have way way less money.
So to be blunt it's as if someone screw my memory of the game. A game i loved deeply. I understand that the people who wanted TB are happy, but people like myself which cherish the game with it's up and down (because the combat system was a mess that's true but that was a part of it too).
Those People can't be happy and they feel someone stamp on their favorite game and use its name in order to attract people. I am not angry, i don't feel betrayed. But sad.
shattered dreams, we will never have a spiritual sucessor of Torment, but another game name Numenera.
My good memories of Planescape Torment are mostly story-related,atmosphere-related or related to some ingenious dialogues. If you liked this game merely for its combat system than that is sad. It feels like the spiritual successor is met by following these other ingredients i mentioned. That said, I found the combat system often confusing and chaotic, unlike in Fallout 1 (and 2) where I had a better feeling for planning combats tactically.
Shattered dreams? Oh my god. You people can be such melodramatic whiners.
Its still a spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment. Its got a different combat system.
I can get being disappointed. Even though they said right from the start things like this weren't decided upon, I can even get feeling a LITTLE betrayed. But holy god, you guys are acting like they just announced its going to be a game about saving the gumdrop kingdom from big meanies.
Its still Torment. If you really think the combat system was all that made Torment what it was, you clearly weren't playing right.
I wonder were you people learn to read.
Where did i say that the combat system was what made Torment?
I did say multiples times in my message that my memories of Torment include the combat system and that without it, well, it isn't completely Torment anymore.
If you can't read or can't understand what a person say, refrain from commenting.
People backed an idea of Torment which include the Combat system with its failure (that i did say was a failure but you both obviously can't read or don't wanna read others) or not.
They wanted as I, the same game with another story since it can't be the nameless. But, they didn't want anything else to change including the combat system, on a personnal note i also wanted the same portrait for characters lol.
So, if you change something in it, it's not the same. It's not what i wish for when they started this KS.
What i wanted was a Torment² with another story. That's all. Without anything changed in it, combat system included. So, i do feel delusional.
This user's account has been deleted.
English is just the fifth language i've learned, it isn't my natural tongue at all.
But more than me butchering it, people even more on the internet tend to not read what others write and just take one sentence out of it and twist it out of its sense.
You may have a better english than me, but with your response i can tell, you aren't though a better person than i am. Jerk.
I agree with those people that feel this is a bait and switch. There shouldn't have been a vote on this simply because this was advertised as basically a spiritual successor to Planescape Torment. Additional not everyone pays attention to the updates once a Kickstarter is funded and doing a vote on this after the Kickstarter is over really upsets me and gives the perception of being sneaky (despite intentions).
I still want the game though, even though I'm disappointed.
PS:Torment was never about the combat. What made PS:Torment was the dialogue and the story. I'm actually relieved that Torment:ToN will have turn based combat. I very much prefer turn-based tactical combat over RtwP combat and even think that the Bioware Classics like Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale would have been much better games if they were Turn-Based just like their Gold Box predecessors.
Arghhhh... I just saw this. Would have voted no.
Not surprised but still very disappointed. Using inflexible and severely limited turn-based combat, what a perfect way to make the game a big turn-off. Sure, fixes for minor issues of the turn-based combat are covered in this article but the biggest flaw, lack of simultaneous actions, is of course left unaddressed; there is no way around that. And to think that I was actually looking forward to the T:ToN's combat. Now it seems that I will have to endure battles to advance the plot instead of enjoying them.
I would have totally skipped the game, like Pillars of Eternity, if it wasn't turn based. I enjoyed the turn based battle of Divinity Original Sin. I am pretty sure I voted back in the day for Turn Based, but it was so long ago I forgot about what method was chosen!