by Dream Pod 9
Late to comment on this but...
You guys are awesome. Mistakes were made, sure, but you made the right call. I'm stoked that there will be a few added weapons and whatnot.
I am looking forward to finally digging into these this summer!
I hope the set sells well and you can crank out some more plastic sets down the line.
@Vegabond; Sorry guys, when it came to making this decision the most important point for us when it came to deciding which models to cut was where each of the models fit into the army sets. Simply put the Tiger and Sidewinders are midway between Hunters/Jaguars and Jagers/Sidewinders so removing them meant that there would be less role overlap between the models. It was a tough call and we agonized over it. Another point against the tiger/ sidewinder is that we simply don't have as much art that covers those models in comparison to Hunters/Jagers and Jaguars/Mamba.
Sadly you can't fix a problem like this by dropping a Jaguar/Mamba (I assume from the production) since that would not solve the problem of affording to make the mold that the plastic would need to be popped from.
You could even have dropped a Jaguar and Black Mamba to give us more variety.
why not drop a Hunter and Jeager though? Sure new people won't have these in abundance in metal like we all do, but then the KS backers would still all be happy and they NEW player could always buy more from your online store.?? That seems the best option to me.
While I am sad that I am not getting the tiger or sidewinder, I understand the situation. It is a kickstarter after all.. DP9 is doing a good job in my opinion.
I did order an additional Jaguar instead of the one tiger I had placed. Thanks
Great News! I'm pleased to read that the four armies in the starter box are of equal size now.
Love it :-)
It's just a pity that the drones are linked to a gear and cannot be purchased seperately. But okay.
@ Jake Staines. We appreciated the support you and others have given Dream Pod 9 over the years and we understand that you and others are not happy with the announced changes to the Core Starter Set. Money from the Kickstarter campaign and follow up extra funding campaign, using our pledge manager to re-unlock the Kodiak (we had backers at the end of the Kickstarter campaign who re-nagged on their pledges) and which unlock the King Cobra and Ammon Mount and added them to the Core Starter Set for all backers. This money can't be refunded as the majority of it is being used to make the plastic injection molds and have the plastics popped for the Backer Reward Packages.
We have shown the contents of each of the 5 molds we are having made, your suggestion to offer everyone an extra Jaguar and Black Mamba is nice but we would need to pop the entire mold that also includes the Hunter and Jager as well 1 more time for each Core Starter Set which adds more plastics costs and higher shipping costs as well. The 6th mold was originally going to be 1 pop the plastic sprues including the Tiger, Sidewinder, F2-25 and Ammon. With the change we moved the Ammon to the mold with the other Caprice mounts and had to increase that molds pops from 4 to 5. This kept the cost of the plastics we had budgeted for each Core Starter Set the same. We simply don't have the money to increase the costs on the plastics. We looked at reality, when the Kickstarter ended the $115 CAD for a Core Starter Set was worth $101.58 USD, and now its only worth $80.08USD. That's why we needed to cut back from 6 to 5 molds and make the changes we did, to ensure we can deliver a well balanced Core Starter Set to our Backers and to have well balanced starter armies for the retail versions later on.
Now to address the changes in model designs, the 3D Models we showed during the Kickstarter were done using Maya software which we have used in the past to make rapid prototypes used to make some of our existing pewter miniatures without any problems. We made an expensive mistake assuming there was a way to export these 3D models into the other 3D model file types used to make the injection molds, after a month of trying with different softwares and talking to experts we were forced to get all the 3D models redone using the Solidworks software. We had to find new modelers who could do the job, which took a lot of time and more money. During the Kickstarter we show how the model parts were going to be broken down and we promised to use Styrene plastic for the model sprues, Styrene is a very rigid plastic that can be glued together with super glue or modeling cement. The plastic injection molds are made of steel and don't bend at all, so all the 3d parts needed to have draft of about 3% added to them so that the part gets 3% smaller as part cavity is cutter deeper into the mold, if you don't do this the part will get stuck in the mold. Solidworks allows you to see the draft and problem areas on the parts and the models had to deal with this as best they could to get the part to working the mold and still keep it as close to the original miniature as possible. If we were running the parts in a less rigid plastic, like some other companies have done, we would not of had to worry about draft as much, but we would have ended up with some of the longer thinner weapon parts that may have druped down, as we have seen other companies models do. If we had changed the parts break down or material used for the plastic sprues we would have unhappy backers as well.
Now all that being said, we can't do refunds, but we can make available special orders for the Dream Pod 9 Online Store. If there are no other Add-ons in the pledge manager that interest you as replacements to the plastic Tiger and Sidewinder sprues Add-ons which are no longer available. You can send me a message via Kickstarter or directly to my email at email@example.com and I'll be happy to help out. We can do a special conversion rate of the $USD DP9 Online Store price plus 15% converted in to $CAD (instead of the 43% it is right now) for our Kickstarter Backers. So for example if you had $24 CAD available in the the pledge manager it would make $20.87 USD ($24CAD/1.15) in products from the DP9 Online Store, here is link to the store (https://store.dp9.com/). We would put a note on your pledge manager account to add the DP9 Online Store products to your Backer Reward Package when it ships and remove the amount in $CAD from your pledge manager account.
@Robert Nash-Dawe - I don't mean to speak for others, but for myself:
"Is Kickstarter a store? Nope.
... the best you can ever REALLY hope for is that the people running the campaign are up front and communicative with their backers, whether product is delivered or not."
KS isn't a shop, but the best you *should* be able to hope for is that the people running the campaign fulfil their LEGALLY BINDING CONTRACTUAL REQUIREMENT to do their best to fulfil the promises that they made to their backers. What you've suggested is an incredibly low bar that gives license to thieves and con-artists so long as they're chatty, which isn't to my mind healthy. Things happen, delays and reasonable spec changes are inevitable, and people complaining about those are probably missing the point of Kickstarter. But anything less than a creator doing their best to fulfil fully the things they've promised, and the backers have an absolute right to complain about it.
Some people are upset because they were promised some stuff plus a pair of gears, and they're being told they'll receive some stuff plus some guns and a small mount - so if they wanted the gears and don't want the guns+mount, it's reasonable that they'd be annoyed. I think DP9 are close to "doing their best" here, but not bang on - offering another Black Mamba and Jaguar as replacement would make more sense, to my mind.
In my case, I'm upset because from my point of view I'm not getting *anything* I was promised (cool-looking miniatures shown on the campaign page and presented as ready-to-go sculpts that just need moulds to be created) and instead I'm getting a lot of stuff I wasn't (terrible stand-to-attention and floating-underwater poses that won't even fit in next to the metal miniatures due to very different proportions). And I think it's perfectly reasonable to be upset about it, especially since this very issue was raised with DP9 six months ago when it was possible to fix all these problems and they apparently completely ignored most of the concerns.
If I can get my post-campaign extra-funding money back, that's a bonus. I strongly suspect it's not possible and I'm not going to be too upset if it isn't, but I'd like to know so I can decide which extras I'm more likely to be able to sell on to try and break even if I can and re-commit my pledge manager. I doubt any of this was malice on DP9's part, and while I'm frustrated with them I bear them no ill will - but this episode has more or less killed my already-waning interest in the game.
Back-story: I haven't played HG in years and I mostly backed this campaign because I love the setting and wanted to see DP9 succeed and win more audience. Over the years I've put literally days of my free time into proofreading and consistency-checking DP9 products for free, I'm perfectly happy to be personally out so that a game/setting I love can succeed. I don't feel that these minis will do that so well, so I feel like I wasted my money.
Does this suck? Sure.
Is the solution ideal? Maybe not for everyone.
Is Kickstarter a store? Nope.
Obviously it sucks that not everyone is getting exactly what they want, and some people are going to be left with a credit that they need to figure out how to spend. But KS isn't a store, nor is it a pre-order service, regardless of how table-top game KS's market themselves.
There is never a 100% safe bet where KS is concerned, and the best you can ever REALLY hope for is that the people running the campaign are up front and communicative with their backers, whether product is delivered or not.
Upshot here, compared to many table-top KS campaigns, is that we're all aware of the delays DP9 has been facing regarding the designs, the sprues, the dollar, etc. We've not been left in the dark like so many other companies, big and small, have done to their backers.
Basically what I'm saying is it's cool that you're upset, but maybe grow up a little. We all knew right from day one that there could be issues. No one can be 100% satisfied 100% of the time. We're also getting a pretty good deal on the models we ARE receiving, so it's not really the end of the world if a couple have to be chopped to make sure we get all the rest, plus extras.
Also you can likely use remaining credit towards existing models from the DP9 online store. Just reach out to Robert Dubois.
"Once your logged in please check your Add-ons and if you have any platic Tigers or Sidewinders selected please zero them out and use your extra available funding pledge to select some other available Add-ons."
So now I have a load of credit in Fundafull but I don't actually want any of the other available add-ons. Is it safe to assume that you've spent it already and I can't get it back?
@ Pedwidge. No the Mount B sprue will be sold with either the Ammon A or Mounts A sprue not by itself because of the way the mold is being made.
@DP9, that makes sense. I didn't catch the added weapons, so it was more of a stretch goal swap and not a loss of stretch goals.
For the Caprice will there be a way to purchase the mount B sprue just to get the legs to build the other variants? (ex I build an Ammon, but have the Meggido, Aphek, Bashan, Kadesh parts left over, so with another leg sprue and I can build one of the other 4.)
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As we have said in our update, we did not make this change because we wanted to, it was because we had to. The reality of a falling Canadian dollar, that everyone's pledge was made in, and increased US dollar costs on making the plastic injection molds and manufacturing the plastics for the Backer rewards forced us to make this decision.
We had to get down to 5 molds instead of the 6 that we had originally planned, this forced the cut of the Tiger and Sidewinder models for the Core Stater Set. In their place we are giving everyone 1 extra Caprice Acco mount and the ability to make up to 5 Caprice Ammon mounts now. You are now getting 5 of the Ammon A sprues, that are used with the Mounts B (Legs) sprue for all the regular mounts, before you could have only made a maximum of 1 Ammon). Plus we added lots of extra weapons to all the model sprues to help try and make up for the lose of the two models. During the Kickstarter the extra weapons sprue was to be a $10 purchasable Add-on as the 21st Stretch Goal, but it that was not unlocked. We have now included those extra weapons on the various model sprues where they can be used.
It was a difficult decision and we know that a lot of Backers are not happy with the cut of the two models. But we did not just make the cut and give nothing to help make up for it. We thank all our Backers for their support and understanding.
I'm definitely not happy about this. I had planned on some extra Sidewinders since I still remember when they were the best heavy trooper gear.
I have to say DP9 you had better pulls this off and make Heavy Gear big, don't make this the next Robtech Tactics.
I will admit I'm a little annoyed, as I added onto my sizable pledge an extra Tiger and Sidewinder, but being able to change that to a Mamba and a Jaguar is at least a nice compromise.
But changing things all of a sudden, when we'd seen the 3D renders of those two Gears, does leave a bitter taste in my mouth. I'll get over it, but it's only fair that I speak plainly about it.
I agree with Juliet Hwang, and by association Styxx42 and Bill. The $130k and $140k stretch goals added 2 models to the core set and now they are taken away with nothing to replace them. I understand, and agree with, the decision that was made to not produce those models, but another decision was made not to compensate for the loss of those models in the core set even though some backers pushed for those stretch goals.
NNNOOOooo! My Beloved Tigers are no more. Those Northern Lights snobs are going to rub it in our UMF faces that our Gears are not being properly on displayed.
Want? HA those Southern Dogs got kicked in the teeth yet again!
You guys can't see how the seas of commerce and exchanging rates so its alright. If you could there would never be a problem with your crew and money. As long as we still get the high quality and quantity that we pledged then that is fine.
I think Styxx42 and Bill have the right of the argument. The pledge was for X things of Y types, to be delivered at the end of last year. No matter how you try to spin it, DP9 is now unilaterally altering the deal to give X-1 things of Y-2 types, many months late.
If DP9 wanted to make things right, Bill is correct, that DP9 should run off an extra sprue with North & South gears, either #1 (with a Hunter, Jaeger, Black Mamba and Jaguar) or else #5 (with the Kodiak, King Cobra and big frame). This would trade a reduction in variety for an increase in quantity, and could be considered a fair trade.
But deliberately shorting everyone so that the North and South forces can be reduced down to the others? I just don't think that's a very fair approach.
Just realised that the cheeta, Hunter, Jaguar, Black Mamba, and Jager all have 3 legs per sprue. Which will allow standing and running poses.
Yeah, I'm the looney who suggested Ferretball in the first place. I guess I really need to sit down with the new rules and figure them out.
Lots of backers wanted the ferret (& a ferret ball game rules...), during the campaign, it also has two build options unlike the dropped two. Couldnt personally make the decision over what, if anything had to be dropped like DP9 did because whatever way they did it, no win.
@Bill Briggs - the Ferret has a full-blown scary gamer cult surrounding it, there's no way it would have been removed from the offering! I don't personally care for it, but it was a facetious suggestion on my part.
@Bill Briggs. It was a hard decision, if we had cut the Ferret and F2-25 instead it would have made other Backers unhappy.
@Eric. Its our fault for not paying enough attention to the currency markets and falling oil prices and thinking the dollars was going to go back up. The Canadian falling so fast really does not make sense, as our economy is not that bad and we are not running trillion dollar deficits each year like the US, its probably just because the USD is the world reserve currency.
In general, that sucks. These things happen. Thanks for being up-front about it. It takes a lot of courage to come out and give bad news, other Kickstarters could learn from this. Being in for a Universe and extras, it hurts. But, hey, I've been watching the money markets for a while and had figured something like this was going to happen. I had hoped I was wrong, but, there we go.
I do agree that the Ferret should have been on the chopping block, but I'm sure the decision was made the way it was for reasons we aren't privy to.
On the other tentacle, I did go add a chibi Kodiak to my order (CHIBI KODIAK! YAY!).
Thanks for the update, even though it wasn’t what we wanted to hear.
DP9 guys - Can I just check what you are saying here - You knew your expense was going to be in US$, but you held the funds for over a year in Canadian $ without paying any attention to how the exchange rates were moving to 'bank' your value at some point?
I realise as an accounting graduate I'm slightly more aware of these things than the average person, but this does seem an incredibly naive thing to do - one that actually causes me some concern on your ability to deliver going forwards.
Robert / Dave (not sure who's replying via DP9), you mentioned good sales, but completely dodged the discount part of two different backers' replies. Is the discount at least being considered? I don't think any of us are expecting a percentage quote at this stage, but consideration should at least be given.
Wow. Those poses are - to be frank - awful. Every one is in that rubbish "stand to attention" pose, they haven't moved on at all since six months ago when we had that forum discussion about exactly this problem.
I'm guessing it's too late to change anything, if you've commissioned moulds?
This is really depressing now. After the awesome poses in the original KS preview I really do feel cheated out of all that money, I'm afraid. I was hoping this was going to be the push that would get me back in to Heavy Gear, but I guess it'll all be going on eBay as soon as it turns up. :/
Still, on the bright side I don't care about the Sidewinder any more.
@DP9: if they sell well enough, could you consider making the next set of plastic molds 3 part instead of the current two part, so that you could make the poses more dynamic? I think that'd be pretty cool.
@ Morgan Vening. We would love to get the Tiger and Sidewinder molds done in the future, we have the 3d model parts sprues all made, it just needs the money to make it happen. If the retail versions of the 4 armies for this Kickstarter sell well, it will become possible.
@Jake Staines. If you click on image of the Updated Core Starter Set contents above it opens a larger version and all the models shown are the assembled Solidworks 3D models make from the parts.
@Kyle Bentley. We are giving everyone 1 extra Acco Mount and the option to now make up to 5 Ammon mounts if they want. Before you would have only been able to make a single Ammon. Plus we have added lots of extra weapons on the various models sprues to try and make up for the lose of the Tiger and Sidewinder.
I'm a bit sad at the loss of the sidewinder. Couldn't we have got rid of the ferret instead?
As with several commenters below, my main concern isn't the specific models but the poses and proportions of the ones we do get.
Since the sprues are finalised, would it be possible to see some mockups of the final figures? I appreciate they'll have to be 3D renders and not actual models at this point, but it'd be nice to see how they turned out in the end.
I am quite disappointed about this news, since I was looking forwards to having the Sidewinder and Tiger added. As a person who pledged for two core sets and an extra Ammon I am glad to be getting more Acco's and options for Caprice mounts, but am disappointed in missing out on four gears and two drone sprues.
I think that adding an extra Ferret to each core set would be a good step in making up for the changes, since it would give everyone the promised number of drones and (combined with the extra Acco) would add up to the same number of models in the core set overall.
I also hope that the lessons learned from this Kickstarter will be applied moving forwards. I am looking forwards to getting my models.
I do hope that when/if Sidewinders and Tigers are finally produced in plastic, backers are able to acquire them at a heavily discounted rate.
Strangely, after the disappointing and dull poses, lack of two handed weapon options, AWFUL running legs, and overall squandering of the potential of the medium to make truly excellent models in favour of doing them as simply as possible... I'm less bothered by this than I would've been.
This is what happens when you know you'll be working in one currency and you keep your available funds in a relatively volatile currency. Even at its most stable, our dollar has at best been on par with the U.S. and often fluctuated far lower. It's the worst it's been in a decade, but it was always going to swing lower at some point.
I understand, but am EXTREMELY disappointed. I was extremely stoked for finally having some Tigers and Sidewinders to add to my forces.
I'm seriously hoping these miniatures will become available at a later date and for Kickstarter backers there will be a discount option.
That would seem fair. I'll also be privately messaging you this comment and look forward to your reply.
We had a question about the Ferret Add-on reward in our Pledge Manager asking if it was going to include the 3 Drones sprue that is attached to it in the mold.
We are happy to announce that yes, we will be including the 3 Drones break-off sprue that is attached to the Ferret parts sprue in the mold free of charge with all Northern Ferret Add-ons purchased by Backers. The pledge manager image and text have been updated accordingly.
Later once the parts sprues go on sale on the DP9 Online Store they will be sold separately.
It was not an easy decision, we tired to make the least painful one. We also looked at game balance for the 4 armies the Updated Core Starter Set would make a Northern Army of 134 to 153TV, a Southern army of 130 to 150 TV, a CEF army of 136 to 154 TV, and a Caprice army of 80 to 180 TV.
@Calibors: If I remember correctly, the elbow joints are only on the Cobra/Grizzly because it wasn't working right on the smaller gears. However, I've also asked/raised the point about the lack of arm variety. I'm hoping I can convince them to add something like a ~90 degree right arm, so a model can look like it's holding a weapon braced against it's upper arm.
As I understand all the reasons and it makes sense for it to be done, on a selfish level in on 4x core sets I lose out out on 4 minis in total and have less variation.
Less selfishly, on top of that the arms don't look to be glueable in different poses from the previously mentioned elbow articulation point (tho that was never promised at the start of the campaign) but was an awesome way to make each miniature just a slight bit different in pose and less static when it was announced. If they were cut from the retail set to lower its cost but included for backers that that would have been okay, but understandably it is down to mold costs so it's impossible to do even with backers having added them as add ons to help towards the mold cost.
The only positive is I planned on using the accos as drones/proxies in another game system and I will get usage out of them for more than 1 game system.
Kinda crappy in all honesty but I'll probably add the chibi kodiak and a big factor is that I want as many diff types of gears as possible with them being harder to find over here -which hopefully the core set will make the gears outside of the core available in game stores and more UK webstores down the line so getting it produced is the end goal at the end of the day..
Genuinely surprised that DP9 didn't keep KS funds in a USD account to begin with, considering most of the expenses were going to be paid in USD, but hindsight is 20/20. The oil marked dropped like a rock and that really hurt the Canadian dollar. I ordered a lot of Tiger/Sidewinders, so I'm unhappy about it but at least DP9 is being upfront about circumstances beyond their control. As I understand it, it is an overall loss of one model (-1 Tiger, -1 Sidewinder, +1 Acco), but as one of the big pushers for a gun sprue, I'm glad that more guns could fill the holes.
While I understand the reason why, it still hurts a little. I wasn't planning to use any Hunters at all and go all the way for Jaguars and Tigers. I even don't know what to do with the Hunters I already have. It is good news to get another Acco Gear though.
I understand the decision completely, and it's okay that we're not getting those (even though the sidewinder is my favorite gear).
What I'm concerned about, however, is the lack of variety in poses for all the models. Each one seems to have all of 1 selection of parts, which offers extremely limited variety. I would have happily gone without some of the more niche extra weapons on all of the sprues to have at least one extra set of arms and legs. Or could you do the same thing you have with the King Cobra and Grizzly and make the limbs on the other gears jointed? That would allow us some better flexibility and it wouldn't be too overwhelming for new players. Plus, the increased variety would encourage more people to buy in based on the better looks!
In summation, while I'm cool with missing out on those two, why do all the gears have so little variety in poses? In fact, based on the compartive size of some of the sprues it seems like they could have a little added to them in the form of arms and maybe legs! A set of arms able to hold a gun like a rifle would be very, very appreciated.
Thanks for the update. Why not say screw it and just go north vs south? I remember how those 2 factions started everything off.
I am not to thrilled that by the look of the pics that none of the plastic Gears will be holding their guns in both hands. I'll survive as I did in the old days, but I thought that was a real step forward in the current metal models.
Great update, and tho there is a loss, it's not a huge one. Plus I think the increased flexibility with the caprice mounts more than makes up for it. Looking forward to these minis.
Losing those 2 molds is unfortunate, but understandable. There is little you can do about currency changes. However I really am still looking forward to the box set, it's still an incredible deal for minis, and I hope others realize that. I can't wait!
Ouch. I really liked the Tigers.
Being Canadian im well aware of our dollar but i would of much prefered cutting some of the caprice mounts and keeping the south/north forces intact.