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DreamForge-Games plastic model kits and miniatures for tabletop gaming
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A glimpse into the process and a feedback request.

Posted by Mark Mondragon (Creator)
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Most if not all 15mm scale weapons for the 15mm scale Leviathans are in T1 or are about to move to T1.

T1 is the term used for first test shot, the molds have been cut and we are tweaking the runners, gates and sometimes the vents to make sure the plastic fills the mold properly.

The Heavy Assault Troopers are not quite at T1 but are nearing completion, I hope to get a look at the files for these soon.

The APC is a large complicated model, perhaps even more so than the Leviathans. When I delivered the APC files I had not broken up the body, it was sent over as two halves because the way they approach components like this will depend on the draft angle, depth and direction of pull of the mold halves. They need to look at these components with the understanding of the best way to approach the kit with an eye to molding and assembly. With the Leviathans, we had the benefit of having a resin kit that was already in production and a sample for the engineers to examine, this kit is a little more of a challenge. The Engineers needed to tackle this kit with only the CAD files and their experience. In instances like this we will go back and forth reviewing files and sometimes asking for changes or clarifications to see if we can optimize the assembly of features of the kit.

Sometimes the conversations will lead to improvements of the base design. One such conversation led to some thought and revision of the wheels for the APC. The hubs are supposed to remain stationary as the tire is driven around the hub. Could we have moving “rolling” wheels? Can we make the wheels a stiff black rubber? Although we need to do some testing with the rubber aspect, the spinning wheels feature is now, I am happy to say, a part of the kit. The rubber looks to be a green light but we need to test and design with an eye towards ease of assembly and durability. Another conversation led to a way to make the doors and hatches open and close rather than making you decide which way to glue the door or hatch. The rear hatch (as you can see from the pictures) is large enough to make this an easy affair and was designed as a feature from the start. The top of the APC has this feature built into the design as well but we are still discussing if we can achieve this with the side doors and the hood.

Conversations like these are continual, until we have the green light to go to mold cut, we will continue to tweak the model and make improvements where possible. Individually some changes or improvements may not seem like much, when you add them together it makes for a much better product and one that I hope you will agree sets DreamForge above the standard offerings.

These are some images from a conversation between me, my account rep and the Engineers to go over how they decided to break up the body and thought on assembly.

The engineering bandwidth can only handle so many projects at one time, as they complete a kit I make sure they have the next available so that I am not the bottleneck in the process. This allows me to tweak the kits until I am satisfied with the results. I have pulled back the Command Squad to go over the kit and make it a more interesting and valued addition to the line. I will work on these files over the next couple of weeks while we wait on the engineering staff to finalize all the Heavy Troopers files. I am still fidgeting with the Black Widows squad and their load-out.

I have a question for all of you. As you are aware, I am not a fan of the over sexualized female trooper. This is not to say I do not appreciate the art form. Mr. Poots Kingdom Death and Raging Heroes are two examples of finely crafted designs that celebrate the female form. You all have seen Ada, so you know where I am taking the design, a far more conservative approach. These ladies are soldiers and double D chest armor simply does not fit with how I view Iron Core.

My question to you is this; does Ada have enough of the female feel to be recognizable on the tabletop, is this model (the proportions) female enough to be in your opinion what you are looking for? There are subtle changes I can make to the mesh, very slight exaggerations to the hip or pose. I am not talking about pigeon toed firing stances but subtly weigh shifts in the hips. Is the model itself female enough or would you like further subtle tweaks to the form? Perhaps a new helmet design as an option? Please let me know your thoughts…

All the best!

Mark Mondragon

DreamForge-Games

Comments

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    1. John H. on

      I voted hard plastic as well. Rubber tires / track is a no-go.

    2. Missing avatar

      Suijin on

      I would also like all helmets as an option. I always remember Starship Troopers and the dude taking off his helmet.

      I also got a FAQ/errata done for Fantasy Flights game Deathwatch about them running around without a helmet, haha.

    3. Clive Weldon on

      Plastic tyres please! Much easier to paint & weather... not sure how rubber will react with solvent based weathering effects etc.

      I think Ada is great, I like the subtle!
      Female troopers may have more variety in hair styles, but if you're wearing an enclosed helm most of the time, you're going to want to keep it cropped, short like Ada's bob or tied back & down.

      Personally I think any troops who choose not to wear head armour in a combat situation are likely to be fine examples of Darwinism in action, so would prefer helms for all the female troopers too, some open faces are great, for modelling/dioramas but majority in helmets for me!

      Oh and Jacqualine, great input, I think your suggestion for the chest plate being split makes lots of sense, and my female colleagues would agree with you..
      Having to wear cheap crap body armour is no fun for 6ft guys either btw ;o)

    4. Missing avatar

      Todd Finney on

      Mark, I've also had problems with rubber "rot" and voted accordingly.

    5. Missing avatar

      Suijin on

      I think the black widow models could have a slimmer/flatter groin protector to help differentiate the female form more also

      Good finds Black on the videos on the differences in body armor.

      Otherwise all of Jacqualine's suggestions sound good also.

    6. Jussi Myllyluoma
      Superbacker
      on

      You can pack the model with lead shot, and see how the tires deform under the weight...?

    7. ianquest
      Superbacker
      on

      Please, please, please, if at all possible don't have rubber tyres!

      I paint/model many of my troops and all my vehicles to diorama standard where possible (I can grab 30-45 minutes to build/paint a lot more readily than I can claw out time to find an opponent!), and I'm cringing at the thought of trying to detail the rubber. The paint effects for worn tyres will rub off, any battle damage and scale effects will be VERY easy to get wrong and difficult to fix, and mud/grass effects will just flake off all over the table every time someone picks it up! I'm sure I'm not alone in applying this kind of detail.

      While I'm sure rubber tyres would be great for a 'toy' model, the high quality of the models I've seen so far has certainly inspired me (and many others, from the photos I've seen) to do them justice with painting and modelling. These aren't toys: they're miniature figurines used for military simulations. :)

      Seriously, what exactly would rubber tyres add at this scale?

    8. Jussi Myllyluoma
      Superbacker
      on

      @Jacqualine -- fantastic feedback; thanks a huge bundle! The experience you share is immensely valuable to any of us who design futuristic armour.

    9. madmatt on

      Any chance we are going to see something like an Eisenkern AT-Gun. You cant always have a leviathan of your own around. Something like this with a little more futuristic design update http://www.google.de/imgres…

      It could easily made into a convertible double kit for artillery as well. Some kind of Nebelwerfer Artillery http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/461736-4/15-cm-Nebelwerfer+41 would also be great. Also from perspective of gaming. It might be great just to have the ability to smoke some part of the gaming table to cover troops advances. Imagine the epic dramatics of a Mortis charging out off a tight wall of smoke!

      Concerning Ada. I love her looks as she is.

    10. madmatt on

      I REALLY prefer NON-rubber tires. Make them hard-plastic please. I have the impression paint just doesn´t stick to it too well and I for my part hate making repair-paintjobs on actually finished models. With rubber tires I think I would really have to take a look around for getting hard plastic or resin replacements from other kits. So please, no effort on rubber tires.

    11. Buzzsaw on

      Jacqualine's suggestion about breaking up the main body plate into two pieces, an upper part that moves over a lower, abdominal section, sounds really excellent. It also has the virtue of being a way of creating a distinction in silhouette between male and female troopers. It also subtly creates an illusion of the bust line without actually resorting to boob plate.

    12. Nick Kirsch on

      I'm glad I stuck around in this thread, I had long wondered how much difference actual military and swat armors had between male and female issues. I know video games, even when they don't put women in barely armored bikinis tend to have very feminine armor on the women and it usually looks quite good.

    13. Black Kestrel
      Superbacker
      on

      Mark,

      I agree with Jacqualine and you can also narrow the shoulders and arm holes to help make the shape more feminine. Here are two articles the discuss the changes the American Army made to the body armor it issues to females soldiers.

      http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/article/2013/09/26/new-body-armor-women-military/
      http://www.military.com/video/armor/body-armor/army-tests-new-female-body-armor/1849624931001/

    14. Gomezaddams on

      Yes, Ada does have enough female feel to be recognisable on the table top, whilst not being overly enhanced in the chest and rear a la other companies you've mentioned. A little taller maybe would be my only addition.

      I really like Jaquelines post (very informative so thank you). The problem you've got now is that you've made a clear distinction between the male and female eisenkern, and as such you've kind of already chosen your path - there suppose to be specialists, and only women. So whilst as a society they may not see women as any less capable then a man etc, within the military its a different story. Otherwise why aren't there regular female Eisenkern mixed with the men? And why are the black widows only women? You've unfortunately already created a seperation to some extent. Leave the design as it is, minor modifications to avoid the punched in the gut thing jacquelines talking about, and have another society as egalitarian. I'd be interested to see a gender neutral box of Commonwealth troopers, using lots of equipment and gear to mask gender possibly?

      Because of that, I'd go with helmetless heads. If you can squeese helmets on as well then that'd be fantastic but.. yeah. Specialists and all that. Much more easier to spot when wearing different kit.

      Rubber tires - it adds nothing to the kit for me. Theres no benefit, so unless it cuts costs for you then no, leave them out.

      "finalize all the Heavy Troopers files" - There getting closer then :D Please Mark, please show us a Valkr render. Pretty please.

    15. Missing avatar

      Jacqualine Cooper on

      I'm glad I could help, Mark! I know it seems like a small thing, but I'm just looking at it with a perspective of "If I had to wear that, what would aggravate/discomfort/hurt me :)
      I think that just changing that plate and getting the hips correct will help a lot.

      For positioning of the legs, you should see if you can do some research - look for any videos with female SWAT officers (real ones, not hollywood) on the news or training videos etc. Otherwise, just study anatomy - try looking online for mocap videos (Motion capture studios seem to be a favorite in a lot of 'The Making of [insert movie]' type videos). Also, videos of women's Olympic sporting events may be helpful. When you're tired of all that, get tickets to a roller-derby game :)

    16. Mark Mondragon 2-time creator on

      I see your point! great recommendation.

    17. Missing avatar

      Jacqualine Cooper on

      My suggestion would be to take the abdominal/mid-torso plate (the large flat plate that comes out from under the shoulder/chest/side armor assembly (the assembly with the decorative gorget riveted to it), and section it. If it is sectioned into two interlocking plates, the top one over the bottom one, then it can fix a lot of the functionality problems:

      First, when she bends over, the bottom plate slides under the top plate (which itself will push out slightly due to both the change in stance and gravity, so when she bends fully over the bottom plate slides up under the top one and mostly vanishes from view), thus preventing that 'punched in the gut' feeling a static plate would give. Further, the top plate may be angled or shaped with the top of the top plate going more forward to allow room for Ada's underbust. None of that would increase or change the overall shape of the armor, but it would show that the armor was redesigned for the higher female waistline and to accommodate the bust.

    18. Mark Mondragon 2-time creator on

      Buzzsaw, I think that figure may be benefiting from two factors? The armor is the Kriegsmarine (fuller chest) and that is the metal cast which had longer legs, My gut is telling me that if I stuck a female head atop the plastic ST it may be off? I do not have an extra Ada to try with.

    19. Mark Mondragon 2-time creator on

      Here is the Ada Mesh next to a Stormtrooper, with the image at this scale and the trick on the eye CAD programs cause, here you can clearly see the difference.

      http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zvF-WtjYmNE/UFqJob79EdI/AAAAAAAACQQ/FIFQGLxBHuw/s1600/Ada+rough+in.jpg

      When the model is cut into tooling and a completed cast in your hands the subtle curves flatten out. Hold your mini up to this and you will see the way the eye perceives the model and what you see on the screen may not gel completely, it is one of those things that a CAD render can never comes out 100% to the way the real world model appears. The final models always look slimmer than the renders. The magic comes from learning how far to push the form and have it register in the final model.

    20. Mark Mondragon 2-time creator on

      Jaqualine: Great post and feedback! a wonderful point of view, thank you.

      I will be mindful of the comments, from a model standpoint there is not much more room I can give in the chest armor, this has more to do with the restrictions on how a rifle is positioned across the chest and how the arms cross over. Physical limitations with the model. There appears to be enough room on the chest to deal with the extra volume. When I modified the mesh I did not shrink it in the thickness, just the width before giving it a slight scale down.

      100% agree the female form and stance is not the same as a male, can I capture this in a tiny figure? I hope I do it justice.

      From a fluff standpoint, the Black Widows have been around long enough to distinguish themselves. 50+ years as a standing force. The Eisenkern as a people have been at war for much longer and are pragmatic enough to realize that the sex of a trooper has little to do with their ability to fight or defend their homeland.

      From a modeling standpoint, I am taking my queues from contemporary military units. The uniforms look the same (for the most part) but are not cut the same for all the reasons you pointed out. The Black Widows are special forces and specialize in tank hunting/mech hunting and will have access to equipment the standard trooper will not but you would want them to be instantly recognizable on the field as friendly, so I doubt they would want to change the armor significantly. My challenge is to find the ways I can make the mini represent a female form without being overtly blatant and still have it register by visual cues. I will try my best to walk the narrow line and attempt to concentrate on small changes to posture, movement and the way they carry their weight, as you pointed out, the center of gravity.

      A note on sizing from my perspective. I am 6'6" tall and have worn body armor, needless to say it did not fit well when compared to the average build it was intended for.

      Thank you again for the insightful post!

    21. Buzzsaw on

      Wow! Thanks for the knowledge bomb Jacqualine Cooper! Heh, I'm not sure I can look at Ada the same again without thinking that poor Ada "she has that 'my breasts are in my armpits' feeling".

      Although I suppose the point of the Black Widows could be they look like Ada's ill-fitting armor in order to emphasis the inherent misogyny of the Eisenkern government? :P

    22. Buzzsaw on

      Mark: In my experience, put one of the helmeted ST heads on Ada and she reads as a guy, or at least doesn't read as a woman. Put Ada (or one of the Resistance FIghter heads) on a ST body and it reads as a female. This isn't speculative, seriously man, people have already done exactly what I was talking about, and it looks great! (http://www.lead-adventure.de/index.php…)

      Perhaps it is a consequence of looking at things on a monitor at greatly enlarged scale, but I think you are GREATLY overvaluing how much impact these subtleties make, especially on table top. Ada works fine as an individual figure, but as the basis of a unit? It really sounds like you're going to end up with a unit that is distinguishable as a different UNIT, but not clearly distinctly reading as being WOMEN.

    23. Tannhauser42 on

      I also agree that a few slight changes would be best. It helps to differentiate the model from across the table.

    24. Mark Mondragon 2-time creator on

      No worries Andrew, I promise not to take it too far.

    25. Mark Mondragon 2-time creator on

      John, yep. I will try to keep it at 'bob haircut length' and Ponies will be drawn high and short. Pony tails may be problematic, the direction of pull is front to back in order to get the face detail and a pony hangs out from the head and creates an undercut from the direction of pull, so I may only be able to do variations of the bob (like Ada) or a tight small bun.

    26. Missing avatar

      Jacqualine Cooper on

      I pledged solely for the Black Widows (and have been quite patient about it). Before I give you my opinion on the models and Ada, I wanted to weigh in on a lot of the arguments that seem to be for the Black Widows being just a scaled down, slightly shorter, slightly skinnier male model. I'd like to point out that I am a female law enforcement officer. I am 5'10", and wear a 38D bra - I do NOT look like a cheesecake model or a stripper - I look proportional - tall women with a healthy frame (Read: rib cage circumference) do NOT always have B-Cups or smaller. I know some women on the force that are like that (very few), but most of us float between a small C and a large D. It sounds big, but it just looks proportional - cup size is not linear... while a 5'2" girl with a 32D bra would look very busty and sexualized, its not just a 'scale up' for a taller woman (and given the height of Ada, assuming the men are about 6' tall, I'd guess she is more my height than a petite thing) - if I had B-cups, I'd look funny and boy-ish even wearing a tight T-shirt. So if you're going to complain about cup-size, look at real women before saying "D-cups unrealistic D'rrrr"

      Also, body armour - particularly Kevlar - is meant to be worn TIGHTLY - loose space is a bad thing because it allows the armor to shift its position out of adequate protection, hinders freedom of movement, etc. That's why kevlar vests have elastic/velcro straps that wrap entirely around the waist to hold the kevlar to the wearer's shape. When just wearing an undershirt and the vest, it is obvious that I have breasts. After I put on a uniform shirt - which is a bit baggy at the bottom since its standard between men and women (because it doesn't hinder us to be so), it does hide my breasts. Still, if I stand next to a male officer the same height as I am, upon observation my chest does protrude more and at a different angle before going to the vertical plunge to the belt-line.

      Also, on Body Armor: Even in something as simple and relatively supple as KEVLAR, the cut is very different for a woman than for a man. I had the misfortune of having to wear men's body armor in the Academy: It fit horribly - I could not cross my arms without being poked in the sides of my arms by the unnatural bend in the kevlar around my breasts - further, the torso length was too long, so if I had to kneel or bend over it felt like I was being punched in the gut. On top of all that, I constantly felt like my breasts were being shoved into my armpits - so every night I was sore and bruised. Saying "The same Body armor fits men and women just fine with no modifications" is just like when my Major said "Suck it up, its what we have so its what you're issued" - its just an excuse... the reason we didn't have female-proportioned armor wasn't because we didn't need it - it was because we were intruding on a "men's profession" where the higher-ups didn't really want us and the industry hadn't caught on yet that we weren't going to leave and go back to 'womanly jobs.' Only one woman in my academy class had proper-fitting kevlar, and that was because her's was custom made due to her being a 4'5" petite little thing for whom no off-the-shelf vest existed (BTW: She did fine in defensive tactics and took down men three times her size, so please no 'she was too small to be a cop' comments). The rest of us were insanely jealous.

      Myself and many other LEOs praised our respective deities when companies began rolling out kevlar vests specifically designed for female proportions (NOT BOOB ARMOR - ARMOR CUT TO ALLOW FULL FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT FOR A FEMALE FRAME AND NOT COMPRESS THINGS THAT WEREN'T MEANT TO BE COMPRESSED). These new vests aren't painful to wear, don't feel like they are shoving our breasts into our armpits, and don't cause longterm injury/deformity. When next to a man's vest, there is a definitive difference in the cut and design.

      I don't know how current military women are with their ceramic armor - but I have a feeling that they are in the same boat that I was.

      As for the models themselves... when I look at the Dreamforge minis, the first thing I note is that they are wearing basically form-fitting body-suits with what appear to be Kevlar sections sewn-in, and ceramic armor plating over that. All fine and quite cool. However, poor Ada looks to be in the situation I was in in the academy... the kevlar is all the same cut as the men's, the chest armor appears to not be re-angled for the female frame, and in general it looks like the poor girl was issued men's armor off the shelf that happened to be sized for a petite man, and was then told "Suck it up." For armor that covers everything like that, it'd be even worse than my ill-fitting armor at the academy: for one, female hips are wider and work differently than men's... because our pelvis is wider and shaped differently. Also, if a women has had a child at any point in her past, her hips and pelvis will have permanently shifted. We don't walk the same, run the same, or stand the same as a man - we follow the same principles, but we have a different center of mass and our hips move differently. That means kevlar needs to be sectioned differently to allow us freedom of movement while still providing the same protection. As for poor Ada's chest armor... I feel a bit of sympathy for her because I'm sure she has that 'my breasts are in my armpits' feeling that I'm so very glad I don't have to deal with anymore.

      Anyway, bottom line is: If female soldiers are a rarity or new thing for the Eisenkern, or if the higher-ups don't really like women intruding into their 'male space' - then leave the design alone. Its fluffy and representative of how women were treated as we first began tearing down the gender boundaries of western civilization. Just make sure it isn't glossed over in the fluff and it'll be a homage to the struggle to be accepted in traditionally male dominated professions.

      If the Eisenkern are egalitarian, then please, please give them armor that is not a cut&paste of the men's armor and looks like it might actually protect them without hurting them in the process.

      As far as helmets, I wear the same helmets as everyone else in training and have never had a problem. While facial structure is different, there aren't any moving parts in my head that would require a redesign of a helmet... Helmets are truely unisex armor. A different design of the helmet would be more due to a different battlefield role or some cultural significance than necessity.

    27. Mark Mondragon 2-time creator on

      Buzzsaw: Nah the males look a bit too large and rigid...as males do. The Ada figure is slighter overall and has narrower shoulders and a heart shaped budunk and slimmer waist that widens slightly at the hips. You could slap on a female head but IMO they need a bit more tweaking than that. They will come with smaller scale helmets that match the head size as well as enough non helmet heads to outfit the entire squad. (hats and hair)

      The changes will be subtly, likely not noticeable from the Ada unless you are really looking. The ladies tend to stand with a little more arch to the lower back and tend to carry their weight over a shifted hip more than men.... All of this very subtle and perhaps not noticeable but I will try me best to model it in without being overt.

    28. Keith Polott on

      I have had rubber tires disintegrate on a number of pieces in my collection- I'm in the Northeast. I'd much prefer the tires be made out of the same plastic as the rest of the kit. I'm not overly concerned with 'action features' in general- posable hatches are nice, but beyond that they seem kind of unnecessary to me.
      Ada looks fine to me.

    29. Buzzsaw on

      Not to churlish, but the statement about adjusttments and how "subtle" they will be puts me in mind of an old joke;

      -A man is in an art gallery and sees a plain white canvas and asks the gallery attendant, "why is there an unpainted white canvas in here?"
      "No no sir, it's not a white canvas, it's a polar bear in a snow storm. It's a meticulous work!"

      Point being, if a piece of visual art is so subtle that you have to TELL people what is it... then it isn't really working.

      Again, not saying that the models need full on boob plate armor, but if the primary source of femininity is the bare heads and female haircuts, I honestly have to wonder if it's worth the trouble. Just make a sprue of female heads with hats/haircuts (or just buy them from some of the excellent makers already on the market; http://www.statuesqueminiatures.co.uk/c/4421222/1/accessories.html) which can be put on the existing Stormtroopers.

    30. Buzzsaw on

      Mark, just to be clear, are the Black Widows going to not come with helmeted heads at all?

    31. John H. on

      Oh, yeah - different countries have different ideas as to "regulation" hair. Even in the US, women can have long hair as long as it doesn't interfere with the uniform.

    32. John H. on

      If you're going "hard" realistic, then females in armor are simply shorter, slimmer-waisted men. In full gear, full armor, they don't look that different at any kind of distance. Only up close do you see that the female has a narrower waist and slimmer neck. But armored up, even that can be hard to see.

    33. Missing avatar

      Andrew Thurgood on

      Personally I love ada just the way she is. Also I think the un-exaggerated look of the female troopers is a big selling point. If people want curvey ladies in chainmail bikinis then theres other ranges that are more then accommodating.

    34. Mark Mondragon 2-time creator on

      Great to hear the feedback, thank you! Honestly I am pleased that there is a great deal of consensus so far on the feedback.

      Here is what I have so far based on your feedback:

      Helmet-less heads with female hair styles but keep them military regulation in length. If I do pony tails they should reflect short pulled back hair, not full length ponies.

      Perhaps a little more curve but nothing too drastic, just enough to accentuate the curves on the lower half, thighs and rear.

      I will try to add a more female stance, nothing drastic, just a tad more arch to the back or slight adjustments in the way a static pose is made, perhaps a very slight hip swing...not as straight or rigid as a male but keep it subtle.


      limjyue expressed concern over the rubber tires, I have built my share of automotive kits and never had an issue but I live in mild California, anyone ell's ever had issues with rubber degradation in your climate? Do your old car models show a chalking or other effects due to weather and moisture? I will raise this concern with WGF and see if there is a material that my resolve this concern but I would love to find out if anyone is experiencing this problem.

    35. Buzzsaw on

      One quick addition to what I said below: while I certainly would like to see some other un-helmeted female head options, I do want the rest of the figure to carry enough femininity so that a helmet doesn't make the gender imperceptible.

      I really like the helmets that have been developed for the Storm Troopers and the Kreigsmarine, and would love to have something along those lines for the Black Widows. That said, I'm also aware that this is no simple choice. I'm also aware that making a figure visibly female from four feet away runs the risk of it looking very caricatured when the figure is held in-hand.

    36. Jenevieve "Tasha" DeFer
      Superbacker
      on

      I like how Ada looks. I hope that the armor won't be DDD boob armor, but will still have enough shape to be able to ID the figure on the table as female troopers. The heads/hairstyle should be short and realistic, but huge flowing hairstyles that would never be seen on soldiers.

    37. PCS Dane on

      Great update! Sooo looking forward to building it!

      Regarding Ada... I really like the current model, and feel that females should be armoured in 'standard' armour....

      However, the Black Widow might not wear Stormtrooper armour ;-)

      I agreed with Buzzsaw that the inclusion of female troops should be instantly recognisable... Why bother, if that's not the case...

      The more 'female' pose is probably an option, as are unhelmeted heads with female hairstyles and size.
      Being in active service myself, what is the most general distriction for the female troops is probably body size...

    38. Nick Kirsch on

      I am also in favor of punching up the femininity a LITTLE. I don't think the chest needs to be reshaped, but the hips, maybe a little bit of pose, nothing overt just subtle stuff. I still want them to look like soldiers, just recognizably female from across the table. Also I am in favor of at least having the option for unhelmeted heads.

    39. John "Procrastinator General" Sisk on

      The APC looks awesome! I wish I'd had the money to get one in the KS. As for the female troopers, I think the armor should look just like Adas, not really genderized much, but the pose could be more femininely exaggerated. I too feel a real military that embraces female warriors would not bother putting them in armored hourglass with pointy rocket bras! The realistic feel of the Stormtroopers is one of the reasons my Eisenkern are my favorite models in my collection. P.S. On that note, if I don't get my Heavy Troopers soon, I will shrivel up like Yoda and DIE! :) Then I will haunt you, ;)

    40. Missing avatar

      Frozen North on

      For imidiate recognition on the field, I would second (or eigth, whatever ;) ) the widening of the hips. Or have have some wide, some same as Ada. And ponytails or small buns, somthing feminin but practical.

    41. Buzzsaw on

      I would say that a bit more femininity (that is to say, exaggeration compared to real life) is good. I base that on the following reasoning;

      If you're fielding Black Widows (barring some unique in-game role), it's because you want female troopers that match overall with this visual style.

      The more realistic the figure, the more difficult it is to be certain that it's a female trooper. Which is entirely appropriate, since in reality, anyone wearing rigid, powered or semi-powered armor will be indistinguishable from one another.

      The argument about un-helmeted heads, I think, is not an argument for making a line of troops, but rather an argument for a line of female head accessories.

      After all, a female Isenkern Stormtrooper would look exactly like any other Stormtrooper. Already you have people doing great female conversions just by putting one of Andrew Rae's (Statuesque Miniatures) female heads and getting a great, realistic female trooper.

      What I am saying is that if you are going through the trouble of making a mold for "female troopers", they should be visually distinguishable even by your opponent across the table, which means some exaggeration. Ada, while a fine quality miniature, if you put a helmeted head on her body, loses all but the most subtle of feminine qualities.

      That's my thoughts.

    42. Reclusive Phoenix (fka Warchild40k) on

      Personally, I like Ada as is. However, if you made the hips a little wider/fuller I think it would make her more apparent as a woman from a distance if that is what you are trying to accomplish.

    43. Dai on

      Am with Eli on this one. Loved painting my Ada and she fits just fine with my Eisenkern troopers.
      The only thing to change would be her hair as noted by others - tho styles that would comfortably fit inside a regular trooper helmet mind.

    44. Eli Swihart on

      I'm a fan of the realistic look that Ada has. If you pick up the model it's clearly feminine but across the battlefield it looks like any other trooper, just like she would in real life.

    45. limjyue on

      As a more realistic combat armoured soldier, I think Ada comes across as ok. I bit more sex appeal would be nice, but not super-critical IMO. Then again, in this industry, sex does sell.

      One point of note on the rubber tires -- I hope you're talking a rubber look, not actual rubber tires. The issue I foresee with actual rubber is long term deterioration under certain climate conditions; "pro" modelers may have their work displayed in controlled environment, but if the intent is for these to be utilized on the tabletop, then they are going to be exposed to various environmental conditions, some of which would not help to extend their service life.

    46. Missing avatar

      Frits Kuijlman on

      The body armour is ok. Helmetless heads should do the trick, but more pronounced femine features would probably work better than ponytails and such. Their hair has to be practical after all.

    47. David Hollingsworth on

      The Ada model is not very feminine from across the table. I have a squad of 4 of them, and the only way you know they are ladies is from the bob haircut. With helmet heads, they look like guys from far away. Perhaps slightly exaggerating their features, and putting in several helmetless heads with ladies hair cuts would help.

    48. Missing avatar

      David Woods on

      Teasing again! Ada's is fine - noticeably different proportions when compared to the male figures. I would agree about a more practical hairstyle.

    49. Aaron on

      ada looks like a woman, but her gun is a bit ridicu-sized. making her cheeks a bit less fatty might help, but overall it's pretty close.

    50. Missing avatar

      Ivicek on

      I like Ada just the way she is. I agree with you that the exaggeration has it's place, and can be done well, but I think Iron Core is the place for it. I'm into Raging Heroes for a pretty penny, but I'd be disappointed to see that aesthetic here.