by Defiance Games
47mm is a touch big, why one thinks 38-42 about right, but thats just my view.
Initially, I didn't have strong feelings between the large or smaller version. Both worked for me ... until I found that the reference figure was 33mm and the suit was 47mm tall. Ouch! That's way too big!! I'm not sure I can really use them any more, at that size.
There was the idea suggested of adding arms to the front to make them into a Labor ... that might salvage these, but not for what I had intended. These are just too large to be a hard suit when compared to 28mm troops.
If you do decide to make smaller ones in the future, I'd rather wait to get my KickStarter figures from those, if possible, rather than these.
Modern building would not take these but future cities would i suspect be better depending on design, from converted ship to nanotechnology built A.I assisted seeding. But the issue raised by Mike Uher II is also a point about armour and armour. if you take an example from http://torvenius.deviantart.com/gallery/34209731… then something like missile launcher would make the better built suit more logical.
Can't really argue with that. Small has its advantages. One con though is as a suit gets smaller, the armor goes down. Theoretically (cause this is all theory) the walking egg would have a better chance in a firefight than Iron Man. Conversely, the heavier suit becomes limited in where it can go. I think that the heavy suit has its place, and a lighter suit would also have its place. What needs to be remembered is that DG is making these to ultimately fit their universe in AW. Mankind is still new in space (the time is only our plus four hundred years) meaning the majority of colonies are still in their infancy with regards to Earth. Probably more like developing nations rather than first world countries. that would mean cities that are relatively short (three or four stories). Larger suits would have an advantage here, as the city terrain gives them cover/hiding places, but isn't too high to keep them from engaging things on upper levels. On more developed planets, with very tall buildings, that Raider suit I keep talking about would be great (especially when entering from the upper stories, and working down). But, as a first suit line- this is pretty nice. One thing I wonder, how would the suit do in suburbia? Probably pretty terrible (as it would fall through all the floors and such).
That doesn't vary based on size, though. If anything, as we get more vertical, you really want to stay human-ish sized, because that's the scale for which we build the cities. And if jumping is based on mass... then surely, again, a slightly smaller suit results in less weight. Square Cube law and all that.
(Though I have my doubts about logistically easier - the number and precision of moving parts in a walker is inherently higher than in a wheeled vehicle, I can see the argument that at least you can stack them on the back of a truck for ease of deployment.)
Jungle - smaller fits better, less likely to bog down. Airless moon - you want to be able to take cover in craters, right? Bug Hive - hope you can fit in the tunnel... really, all this comes down to 'why mechs are a bad idea'. And that is a topic done to death, but it's why it matters that you avoid *becoming* a mecha.
Power armour is a man with enhanced capabilities, and the biggest edge they can have is to go where men can go.
Thing is with urban warfare, we still think in 2d terms due to city planning layout, yet as we go ever higher and start to build more raised roads, rail systems, we will see more multi level city designs, with parks on the 32nd floor - Etc.. - Then these suits star to make more sense, with maybe slightly smaller ones, that are used by law enforcement (Think power loader in Aliens).
Also Mike Uher II makes a good point about logistics and support, and the suits have an advantage here as they would need just an articulated transport with maybe two techs for a force of say 6-10 suits. Having this flexibility makes more sense, and the suits can also act as mobile logistical support moving goods due to design.
You know- the more I think about it- I can't wait until February gets here!
Well, thats a touchy subject. Having been there, you don't use a tank for routine low threat stuff. you use regular infantry (like the original release of the UAMC Marines). When SHTF, you send in your big guns to situate the situation. I would see the hardsuits as being the big guns. If/when the JRAB were released, that would be the supplement for the regular infantry- their mobile big guns. When things get really hairy, you send in the suits, with infantry support. Most likely, stuff is getting broken (like those pesky buildings) and therefore, having a 10 foot tall armored warrior is no big deal. Hardsuits would be able to better utilize cover and concealment than other armored vehicles like trucks, tanks, and APC's and give a certain fear factor. For all we know, they could be quieter on the move as well, and with nothing but heavy guns- normal infantry would try and give them a pass. Plus, if you look at the fluff, space travel in the AW universe is dependent on mass. So, my thought, if that is the case, do you want to move two 70 ton tanks and their crews and support- or 100 one ton hardsuits with associated personnel and support? The hardsuits give you more bang for your mass, and depending on how they are used and where they are used, could be more effective individually. From a straight utility perspective- Hardsuits would be WAY better than armored vehicles for the many types of battle spaces that they could see. Airless moon with low grav- rather have a hardsuit. Jungle- air conditioned hardsuit. Bug Hive- hardsuit. Etc. Plus, the Hardsuit gives you more options for force composition. Trucks are hard to hide, and really big targets- plus they have multi person crews. The hardsuit has a crew of one, is relatively small, and as well or better armed than the truck. It already moves at infantry speeds, and I would guess near impervious to pretty much all small arms fire. Talk about a force multiplier!
Wait, if this is meant for *urban* warfare, do you really want to not fit into the buildings? You know, the thing where urban warfare happens?
These suits would be more suited to Urban warfare, and as we see more urban build up it seems more likely that they will revert to this type of suit. Hence why one thinks the suit size with the figure ref works.
It is true that tanks have been pushed to the limits as far as short and powerful are concerned. However, this hardsuit- as scaled in the pic with the Marine- is still small compared to a vehicle. On the flip side- it's also probably slower, and less well armored- so anti vehicle weapons will be ruthless to these things. But infantry forces- they better steer clear.
Uh, surely "Height advantage" in the modern context is "Asking to get killed". They've been building tanks with the lowest possible profile for decades now; I do not expect this to change when the tank is standing upright... "Height Advantage" disappeared when we stopped swinging swords. :)
I had no problem with the initial scale sketches, as laid out above. If the arms have to be brought into the body, well, fair enough, I suppose. But I've still no problem with the legs being in the 'legs', even if it leads to a slightly shorter thigh than you'd assume.
at 45-47mm,. they're about 10 feet tall... which gives them height advantage over walls and most vehicles...
considering the "it could be smaller, if the pilot's cramped"
do recall, there's armour on these things...
even playing the "advanced ceramics and kevlars" there still bulk to that...
basically, this would put the pilot's feet in the knees of the "suit" and their arms pretty well pinned down by their body.....
Matt_adlard: I get that, but I'd really prefer the suits had been 'engineered' to suit about 7ft, or 35mm-ish. You could make the arms work, even if the suit itself was cramped.
After all, who ever said that milspec gear was going to be comfortable? :p You might even end up with a lot of female pilots just for the smaller stature within the things.
Thing is with 28-30mm a power suit has to conatin a person '28mm' + Suit 'extra mass' so they will be larger than 28mm.
Good example are these http://media.blounttoday.com/media/img/photos/2010/07/08/Library-Ocean-Suit_t607.jpg & http://www.diversinstitute.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Divers_Deepwater-suit.jpg
and if you look add hight and mass, of a person to around 7.5-8ft but then you have issues with arm placement; stick out front.
This image http://s164.photobucket.com/user/Order66Customs/media/Divesuit_zps52a8bf9c.jpg.html though a toy really does seem to offer best of both, but with arm similar placed. The Defiance arms are not so placed so you need a certain level of realism, and this adds to size.
38-42mm, so 40mm middle would be about right - making it around 8.5 ft 'ish' before some one starts to nit pick the maths'
This is bigger than a door, but still able to enter most larger buildings and as a lot of warfare would have industrial terrain, that fits.
Smaller mech suits would have an Exoskeleton Armour Elysium style fit and look one feels would be 28-30mm.
But that's just me.
40 something millimeters wouldn't really work for me. My main armies are 25mm-28mm 40+mm would be way too big. 28mm to like 30mm be fine cause they be a little bigger then my infantry figs which is fine since they represent armored power suits.
In comment to a post I just saw - about 40mm would probably work OK. Bigger is fine. Just not /too/ much bigger; or to put it another way: as small as the designers would be able to get away with. Small is good in power armour!
... well, hell. That's much, much bigger than I'd hoped for. I don't need mecha, I have mecha. I was wanting power suits that didn't look like robot biking gear.
47mm tall is 'mecha', no two ways about it.
I get the idea of bringing the arms in - it's fine, it works, but this is a LOT bigger than what I had in mind when I pledged for '28mm Power Armour Hardsuits'... but I get the impression people like their mid-sized mecha, so I guess we're going with it. I really would have liked something a little smaller, even if upscaled just enough to bring the arms internal; these are clearly not powered armour that fit into buildings or helicopters; they get slung beneath and fight in the open only.
It's worth noting I hadn't seen the update on the scale increase; I pledged on the basis of what was on the front page, including the little-man-in-the-suit sketches. This is all a bit of a surprise.
Yes! 47mm is just about perfect! Larger is definitely what I want :-)
Larger would be my preference.
Thanks MichaelG - great comments.
@Brian Wood: I believe I get your point, but from a symantecs perspective a larger suit does not mean the scale has changed, it means the suit is larger. Depending on how modern the technology is, room needs to be left for the equipment that drives the suit and the weapons systems.
Additionally, removing the pilots arms fro the external arms means that you don't end up with weak armor on the sides and underside of the arms to ensure human mobility.
If I was in the dark in a tin-can, I'd appreciate the extra armor (PROTECTION) from the hostile world my suit is designed to protect me from. While realism isn't mandatory with a tiny toy soldier; it is appreciated! (and appreciating ='s repeat sales).
I'd say that 38mm is pushing the boundary, while 42mm is the shortest I'd accept. Why? SST Grizzly Exosuits, which are of a similar proportion are 44mm and they look VERY stalky. Additionally, once you take the pilots arms out of the suits arms and enlarge the figure, you have to look at the feasibility of the legs still working out well too.
Whatever is decided, don't kill your budget, keep it on a 40mm and most of us will be happy. It's the overall DESIGN I signed up for and now that you are making it larger I'm in hog heaven.
I agree with matt_adlard. At 38-42mm on a 40mm base would be a great size. It isn't small, but it's also not huge.
They need to fit with the scaling in 28mm games, and much larger than 42mm would start getting into 1/35-1/32 scale figures.
meant the look of the UAMC HARDSUITS!! =)
Firstly good to see so much feed back nd chat from Defiance crew, to many KS projects its thanks for the money, leave a message and we'll get back to you..... eventually, and over the ideas that seem to be bouncing back and forth, that alone has give me massive reassurance in this one.
One thing is that the armour would look really good as mech size for 15mm. As to the armour size, was thinking the marine figure image was 25-28mm so a combat suit around 38-42 would IMHO be about right, the suits represent some one inside but the fact that you need a certain amount of realism as indicated by peoples posts, yet also a certain amount of latitude.
The persons shoulders would pop if the suit was as indicated with the earlier pics, even though I understand the need to keep the balance, its more that the head and upper body would be distended with the arms going partway to control the lower components. Hence ones preferring the larger suit size. It represents scale adjustment lost in say GW figures.
Still have to say love the look of them.
On a more serious note there is also a lot of internal detail shown for the cockpit, that might better resolve if the model is enbiggened. So providing it doesn't get ridiculous I would much prefer a more detailed, but taller model. Providing it doesn't get wide and ugly in the process.
I like the idea below about a range of non-mech suit variants that scale in size
The number of references to size here is making me think of my spam folder and those highly insightful emails :-(
Anyway, so yes, err bigger please. 47 mm would be good.
I can see peoples concerns about getting into buildings- I too would like to think that hardsuits should be able to go where a man goes. However, they also have to be able to move with all the weapons and ammo, and armor as well. Balance is what some are saying. Here, bigger is ok (I see these as a support/heavy assault unit). Plus, it leaves it open for Defiance to make a lighter hardsuit later (basically a Mk II of this suit- call it a Raider hardsuit). That could have more of a "Urban Fight" vibe, with ease of navigation of buildings, and tight spaces like ship corridors and the like. Something akin to the Dreamforge Games Stormtroopers in size with a Spartan (read Master Chief) vibe. Obviously, not those directly, but similar in concept.
I think the case has been made for the larger figure.
I'm very much in favor of the larger suits. I have no trouble whatsoever with the arms of the trooper to be within the chest of the hard-suit (actually prefer that) which allows the suit to be 45mm standing straight. That typically balances out the size of the base and allows for some level of suspension of disbelief that a 25mm figure could fit within.
Whatever the case, please make it plausible that a human could fit inside, operated the suit from within the space allowed & not be deformed. If you meet those minimums, the size should work out to still work on the 40mm base.
I'd prefer something around 42mm high than 47mm, but I won't be too concerend either way.
One of the things that has always bugged me about the GW miniatures is their complete disregard of scale and anatomy. I'm completely for the larger miniatures depicted in the last picture above. From a narrative standpoint, the whole reason for having exo-armor is to amplify the power and stature of a human so they can stand toe-to-toe with larger opponents. Realistically, the power-harnesses being developed by the military today already add considerable height and bulk to a standard soldier due to the nature of the mechanics involved. It's plausible to assume that adding protective armor, heavy weapons, ammo storage, the power plant, electronics suite, and environmental controls will make for a pretty substantial carapace.
Hi Lee - the size was actually changed partway through the Kickstarter. See Update #10. We're just trying to clarify to make sure that everyone saw that and agrees.
100% the larger suits. They were what made me decide to stick with this Kickstart. Changing the size after the KS has finished feels disingenuous to me.
I hope the hardsuits will be better in the end than the 1980-ish looking female Marines. Any chance to drop those ladies out off my pledge...?
That should be picture "above"
So just to clarify something for people who may not have our UAMC Marines - which is the comparison figure next to the hardsuit in the bottom picture below. That figure is 33mm from bottom of feet to top of helmet. Going off the rough measurement of those two images on my screen that would make the hardsuit in this picture roughly 47mm tall (bottom of feet to top of pod)
Hi Cameron - I'm not sure about making the exact same figure in two different 28mm sizes but I can see us going with the alternate size on a complimentary set. So if these are the big size (which it seems the vast majority are asking for) then we could release a man-sized power armor suit as another unit down the road.
I would prefer the larger size, it makes the armour look more like a heavy support weapons system instead of a man wearing a tin can on his head. But then again the smaller is more akin to a close support weapons system. Just out of interest what would be the position on making both sizes, with the more popular size being the Kickstarter one and the other size being a future development of the range?
I'm just worried they'll go for 40mm instead of 35. In terms of the scaling, it's a big difference. I tend to put my dudes into terrain where the 40mm would mean they can't stand inside a building. At least a 35mm could be assumed to have crouched a bit...
The new size is great. It allows it to realistically be able to mount some of the weapon systems we've seen in the concept art, and with the limbs in the suit one of the most important weaknesses of power armour is addressed: what happens when the operator loses a limb, where the armour is weakest? 35-40mm is perfect, with the German walkers being closer to 60-70mm to account for the fact that they are pretty much walking tanks.
To rephrase: I was excited to be getting chunky, human-scaled powersuits. Let's not get too carried away on scaling them up to mecha, hey? You've already /got/ mecha.
Note that in the 28mm scale, they'd probably end up 34-35mm or so. 40mm might just be a bit much.
If these are meant to be a settings power armour, remember that once you hit 8-9 feet tall you /can't practically fit in buildings/. This rather defeats the point of Power Armour, because once you're unable to go where a human goes, you're just a walking tank. So be very careful on scale accordingly, else your 'hardsuit' is now 'small mecha'.
And I daresay the grognards have a few things to say about the practicality of mecha... So please, smaller. Or at least not so big that it's, you know, /big/. Put the arms internal, but keep the legs in the legs. I can handle scaled to 7ft or so, if you want the arms to fit inside, but 'half a human again' is rather pushing it in 'actually useful'. You guys were gunning for realism, right? "Being able to move inside a building" is realism. ;-)
While I agree that the arms should be in the arms, I like the bigger is better philosophy here. Especially if those AO hardsuits are somewhere in the future. from the concept art, those looked like they would be very close fitting suits more like ?Mjornir? armor from Halo. I too am looking forward to these for Heinlein like reasons. That being said, to represent Terminators for 40k players, bigger is definitely better (And remember, hopefully the AO hardsuits will be along sooner rather than later). Either way- I am looking forward to February.
I think the bigger size representing the pilot being primarily located within the torso is better. From a practical standpoint on the battlefield it makes more sense to have it piloted this way much like a gundam or a veritech, using sometiype of control/suit interface. If the arms and legs are physically located in the arms and legs, all you have to do to remove it from combat is blow off an appendage, thereby blowing the pilot's corresponding appendage off and letting him bleed to death, even though the suit itself might still be combat capable. If the pilot is in the torso at least with the arms, he could lose a weapon and keep fighting. It would also facilitate combat repairs and modulat weaponry. That being said, I don't really care. They're just cool either way you decide to go!
Honestly, I don't have enough information to make a useful judgment of which is better. As long as the pilot can sit in the suit and operate it in some semi-realistic manner, I figure I will be satisfied.
I'm playing them as bulky power armour, so bigger is best for my purposes :)
Larger is my vote as well.
larger size looks good to go
I think that the larger sized suits are a great idea. Please carry on with the plans for the increased size.