Too bad Faith can't train people to button up! I keep hoping they'll scale back the cleavage, but seems with Paulo in the mix, not surprised at all.
To put it into perspective, here is a single image of the ladies from the updates: http://imgur.com/zHzKR8y
I dig all of them and in isolation I don't find any one of them to be too sexy or too ridiculously clothed, but I think they are only diverse in that they are just variations of the same type of sexy. While it doesn't offend me in the least, I just find it a bit boring as others have said. I think the female model in the corrupted gangster acolytes is also awesome and interesting: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/the-others-7-sins/posts/1357915
But I get it, the heroes are supposed to personify awesome, so it's only natural for so many different characters to start feeling similar. Portraying an overweight gangster as a hero is a bit of a challenge. But FAITH is a team with supernatural powers, so I'm sure there's a way for these type of stretches to be thematically grounded.
Folks: different things bother different people. If someone says "this offends me", they're right. If it doesn't offend you, fine, but they aren't wrong because of that. Room for all views.
Lots of variety in the women, though I do think they are mostly designed to show too much cleavage. What's wrong with a flannel shirt and jeans? And while I like the idea of Elle, her mini and bio just don't go together in my mind. Kind of a weird look for heavy punk.
Whats the moral difference between sexy and cool again? The men are just as designed to look cool and thereby attract buyers same with sexy characters (who still look nothing alike). They were designed to be eye candy as much as the men were designed to attract buyers looking cool.
You've only attached moral outrage to one aspect while somehow acting like the other isn't basically the same thing.
I think Paul Newsham said it perfectly. Most of the female characters look like they were just designed to be eye candy, while most of the men look like they're geared up for battle. Having just a couple of the female characters 'sexed up' would have them really stand out, while the rest could more sensibly be dressed in something practical (while still looking good).
Except these female characters are varied a lot Paul and I don't see how you can't see that. Ellie herself is wearing a jacket and wields chained swords, Polly is very muscular in her arms and has a automatic shotgun, Nichole is wearing a full outfit and Julia has no sexuality at all and looks like she stepped out of Aliens. The only thing the female characters have in common is that most of them are put into the same "sexy" box and therefore unfairly accused of not being diverse. Which is terribly common these days unfortunately.
But I'm going to leave this like this is. We shouldn't drag the campaign down with a debate in its last few days. And honestly, if you can't even see the characters as diverse as they being any different from each other despite how different they all really are? We certainly do not have any common ground for a debate.
Thanks for the double emphasise, autocorrect. You're the best.
Silverm, I'll elaborate then.
I dislike the lack of variety in the female characters. The one thing they have in common is that the vast majority are the same body type and wear clothes to emphasiseemphasise their boobs. This does not mean I don't like boobs or that I think it's wrong to like boobs. When I look at what most of these figures have in common, I think about what the artists who made them were trying to achieve. It seems to me that they've gone for a boring default of these figures being primarily eye candy.
By contrast the men, while again not having the most interesting range of body types, at least get outfits ranging from full assault gear, helmet, to just a pair of jeans. Variety. A look that makes sense when I read the character description.
This contrast suggests a difference in priorities when designing the male and the female characters. You argued that these characters can't be objectified because they're not real. My response was that replicating the objectification seen in the real world when designing these characters is an endorsement of that, either deliberate ( fairly unlikely) or by just not stopping to think about what the character designs say. It says to me that during the design process, either no one objected to this, or if they did then those objections had little effect. As with anything in comments on the internet, it would be tiresome to add "in my opinion" to every post, so I skipped it. Feel free to add it back in while reading.
So, I don't much like around a third of the hero minis, and that's why.
@NecroNuke9: I don't know if you realise, but IT IS possible to be of asian descent and live outside of Asia.
Disappointed in Elle. Her pose is stupid and her outfit silly. I'm female and I enjoy the pinups from Kingdom Death and sexy sculpts but this misses badly. She looks awkward with her weapon slung between her legs and the way her hand grip it. Her top also looks stupid and off balance. Her breast are ready to pop out and it looks imbalanced compared to the rest of her outfit. It just looks like someone was trying to hard and it shows.
@ Michael LaMastra - Don't mean to sound rude but those comments are very naive.
To be fair Paul that isn't the impression your first response to me sounded, I mean you said that making sexy women in this game is a "tacit endorsement" of sexual objectification and "If that's what this game wants to be, then sure, OK." That sounds far more absolutist and alarmist then just opinions on what we like or dislike. My apologizes if I misunderstood the matter Paul.
Silverm, of course I've considered it. We're having a chat about what we like and dislike about the game. If those things, and the reasons for them, were identical then this would be a lot less interesting.
I'm not asking for the game to be changed! The folks at CMON can and will make the game that they want, but the fact that Thiago is on Kickstarter, reading people's comments means there's a reasonable chance that they care what we think :)
Ouch! Lockhart's mini looks like an inflatable doll. I don't know if the volume of work lead to some corner cutting and the employment of a few less than stellar sculptors for some of the "less important" minis; but the quality of the sculpts on this game does seem to be highly variable. Some a absolutely amazing... other are "Doc"... or Lockhart...
@Paul I don't think you can look at anything to do with this game and really apply it to real life. It also whole hearted embraces badass cyborgs and uplifted gorillas fighting ancient occult evil from another dimension. Not sure its endorses solving your problems with guns or violence. Have you ever considered that people simply disagree on what things mean to different people? That a game like this is simply not even an issue to people?
So, Elle is a Scottish girl obsessed with Japanese culture?
Paul, men are objectified just as much; often times by the feminists complaining about women being objectified; we just don't care and that's why no one makes a fuss about it. Look at TV, movies, magazines; they objectify men every bit as much but we simply could not care at all. Everywhere you turn it's Calvin Klein ads, the Bachelor, GQ, Men's Fitness, even the action movies we like; we just don't care, only women care. Evolutionarily speaking, males of every single species of mammals wear their genes on the inside (providing for the female of the species, protection, etc.) while the females of every mammal species wear their genes on the outside, ie physical attributes. This is millions of years of evolution that caused this and it's not something specific to humans or this generation. With birds, it's often times reversed where the males are bright colors and sing while the females are more pale, dull, and camouflaged. Not something that will change in the least before human beings go extinct. Less attractive women complain about how men only like attractive women; however, us men are turned down thousands of times by women over the course of our lives no matter how attractive we are. Women get mad about being turned down once or twice and usually they just wait around hoping the man will make the move. Even the least attractive women in the world can easily find a man if they put their mind to it whereas men only succeed through shear luck that if we ask out 100 women, maybe we'll get lucky with one.
BTW I like the weird baby lust controller. I think it's one of the more original designs in the game and it'd be a shame to change it out for something more generic. The other monsters have bodies that reflect the damage their sin does - the sloth creatures are slug-like, the gluttony creatures are fat. Making the lust controller sexy would be the equivalent of making the gluttony controller a chef holding a really delicious cake.
Women are objectified in the real world. Creating fiction that wholeheartedly embraces that is a tacit endorsement.
If that's what this game wants to be, then sure, OK. The only reason I even bring it up is because I follow Eric Lang on twitter, and he talks a lot about representation of women in gaming. Obviously he is only one part of the creative team on this project, but it still gave me pause.
@Paul you can't sexually objectify a fictional character. The very term means to objective a person into a object. A fictional character is already an object.
@webs It's it obvious? She's looking behind her? I mean granted its an ungainly pose but in the context of a full game its better looking for fighting monsters than just looking like you are taking a photo the entire time but I mean its a model, there all going to look like they're posing.
And I mentioned Polly and Morgana as a matter of context, honestly they are not all that attractive to me, but its not really accurate to say they are "sexy" and therefore not two entirely different looking female characters.
Come on Wrath! Plus how bout another vampire hero.
Adam Segal I agree the lust controller should be sexier. Something like this https://www.flickr.com/photos/37412638@N03/3798056098
@Silverm: What is she doing, though? Flossing (as someone asked earlier)? ;)
I actually don't have a problem with Polly or Morgana, Polly is so over the top that it's funny, while Morgana kinda looks like a unhealthily slim, pale Lady.
What I don't like at all is Leahs artwork. In the short story she is depicted as a resourceful, no-nosense scientific woman and fighter. Her pose and her clothes doesn't fit that description at all.
Shhh, this is a secret.... You can be a feminist and also like boobs, while disliking objectification.
Sam, you're over thinking this. Besides, isn't there a female character that is a wolf woman and one that's a kangaroo? They're not all that way. You don't see men bitching about how all the male characters are more muscular than any man that ever lived other than Arnold when he last won Mr. universe. It's a game, let it be a game and get over the feminism thing. Not only that, but who in their right mind would nail the gluttony chick. Also, the nurse, hobo, and various others are by no means the photoshopped kind of chick. Even if they were made the way that you seem to view them through your confirmation bias; men are attracted to certain ways that women look, get over it, it's not our fault, we're just built that way. Attacking men for being attracted to breasts and pretty faces is like attacking a lion for liking to eat meat; makes no sense, we're both built that way through genetics and you need to get over that and stop bothering us for just being who we are. It is not our fault what were attracted to nor should we be even the least ashamed at what were attracted to. Do you bother gays for being attracted to the same sex too? Because that's the way they're built and people need to stop trying to make them feel like they're terrible people for doing what is only natural. Men like boobs, sorry but that is how it is and no amount of your bitching is going to change that… ever… a thousand years from now, we will still like them.
@Victoria I don't see the lack of diversity here to be honest. All of these characters look very different and do have different body shapes. Polly looks completely different than Elle or Morgana. The only thing they have in common is that your putting them into the "sexy" group and claiming there is no diversity in these characters.
@Webs well actually I didn't see the overlap, you have different reasons for not liking the model and I was addressing a totally different complaint. Honestly I see your point, although to me there are plenty of posing going on with these models so its not all that bad. At least she looks like she is doing something, but thats just my opinion.
I actually love Elle, though I wish her head on the figure looked like the art work
Also, I agree with Silverm, there should be a sexier Lust controller
+1 getting tired of every female hero being dressed and posed like a sexy background dancer in a music video instead of looking like a character me or my friends want to have as our avatar in a game. It's just lame. Not looking forward to bringing this game to the table and apologizing to my friends about the character designs before we play. I initially thought it wouldn't bother me much and I would just ignore it, but with each eye-rolling new female character unveiled I get a little closer to dropping my pledge. More like Julia Parfitt, please.
@Alexis: I meant more porny than Manara, which, true, is about 100% more..;)
@Silverm: I specifically mentioned what irks me about Elle, but hey, why listen to arguments?
Okay, as a female I don't mind sexy ladies, never have before, but yeah it would be great to see more variety in looks and clothing. My biggest problem with this character is the sculpt, her mouth does make her look like a blow up doll as someone else said.
@Silverm yeah, count me in the camp that wanted a sexier lust controller, but that's because it's LUST, those are the minis that should be the sexy ones.
@Michael, we will get well over 1 mil easy. We'll see all 7 sins
Oh come on. We're days away. Make it that if we hit an even $1 million that we get all 7 sins complete.
@Webs: "More porny Druuna comix"? This implies the existence of less porny Druuna comics, which unlike Manara (who'll do non-porn once in a blue moon) I've never seen yet.
I will say though that for all his talent, Paolo's female character designs do get old after a while. Too much sex appeal is like not enough; sooner or later you get used to it and then you get bored with it. I like sexy, but if the sexy overshadows everything else about a character it's just not as cool.
This particular design's not bad, it's just that I'm so used to the trademark Parente "half-lidded come-hither eyes, partially-open pulpy lips and improbably flexible sexy anatomical pose and scanty clothing" sex-kitten look that pretty much overwhelms any other aspect of the character that I kinda just think "meh".
At least it isn't as ridiculous as a mid-90's Rob Liefeld female design. Just look at this atrocity: http://www.comicvine.com/avengelyne-glory-1/4000-121059/
Seriously, even by comics standards this makes absolutely no sense.
The real irony here is that Elle isn't all that scantly clad at all. If her shirt was closed this wouldn't be an issue. Show some cleavage and suddenly people can't even really identify why they are upset.
And I would also point out people were just wanting an scantly clad woman for a Lust controller, and people have said they are going to use the gluttony controller for Lust. You can't satisfy everyone.
The painted butt on the Avatar... SO gross, haha.
Really excited about the tiles and upgrade cards! I think those are my favorite kinds of stretch goals after the Sins themselves.
@Alex Starcrash: The gluttony controller looks like she's got a weight problem, doesn't she? You could use her as a big-bellied female hero if you want.
Paolo Parente is only one of many artists. But still the overwhelming majority of female characters are oversexualized. That just gets boring. Don't get me wrong, I love Manara and the more porny Druuna comix, but in a game, I'm not looking for that kind of thing.
A CMON game with Paolo Parente as an artist? I was not expecting all these sexy women! What a shocker!
Add me into the "bored by scantily clad minis" camp. Maxim magazine is out there for those that want it; I'd rather have minis that are consistent with the game.
I get it Elle, parents just don't understand. You wear what you want and let your crazy nunchuk swords do the talking.
@Silverm: One swallow doesn't make a summer.
I am actualy not that taken aback by the lack of clothing, but the ridiculous poses.
Almost all of the girls look like they have a serious case of hyperlordosis or been ballet dancers for most of their lives.
Elle is showing a little bit of cleavage, but the REAL "NSFW" atrocity here?
The Gluttony avatar's BUTT is full-on exposed! It's practically PORN, you sexmongering game designers. I'm appalled.
LOVE the scantily clad women... LESS is MORE! Keep em' coming!
Actually Delta has Julia and she doesn't have the same body as the other girls so we already do have variety as you guys want it. Although that's a bit silly definition of variety given the sheer amount of badass and different heroes we have in this game. Everything from gorillas to vampires. This game collection has been badass so far. Keep it up coolmini!
I'm also not a big fan of Elle's sculpt unfortunately--mostly the open mouth kills it for me. And while I'm cool with some sexy lady outfits, I also really love variety.
Re: the tiles. This isn't a perfect game visually (I agree that the sins are not as diverse as they could be with all of the boils and tentacles we've been seeing).
Yet while I thought the tiles were bland at first, when I took a closer look at them, I found that they're actually pretty evocative. I enjoy them and am now unreasonable excited about tiles.
We got a couple of fat guys and demons, but we need a fat girl. The ethnic representation is well diverse, but in having a ton of heroes and there isn't a single woman fighting not just the demons of the apocalypse but also her own obesity, we're overlooking a major part of the population. Take it from someone who will be playing PHD for similar reasons.
But the demons are taken aback by the sexy outfits of these heroes, giving the heroes the edge. Don't you get it??