Yeah, I backed the Reaper KS, and the annoying thing about it wasn't the delays (although scheduling it to guarantee a delay was pretty stupid), it was the fanboys who couldn't stop spamming mindless defense of any criticism.
Kind of like John "I backed Ogre" H., who can't seem to shut up about it. Pointing at what someone else has done wrong as a defense of one's own actions is something people are supposed to outgrow around age 5.
Here's some "perspective," John: your rude and condescending defense of this game, Studio McVey, and this KS campaign is making things WORSE for your hero, not better.
I see that it is not uncommon for Kickstarters to have various "hiccups". The question is how various companies handle them, and to what extent those hiccups impact delivery. SMV was overly ambitious with their initial delivery dates, but the Sep 2013 final ship date has been solid for quite a while, whereas the Ogre one kept slipping and slipping, which is why I use it as an example. Recently, CMoN and SMV have gotten a lot better at communicating, and I appreciate them getting serious and making an honest effort to keep people informed.
@AB - U MAD? My key point with Ogre is that things could be worse, and people should have perspective. Ogre was supposed to deliver Nov 2012, just like SMV's SW:BfA. CMoN delivered the core product in January, and will likely have completed all delivery before the first Ogre backer receives their core product. Again, perspective.
And, highlighting variability, wave 1 of Zombicide 2 is currently en route - I should receive it by end of week - slightly ahead of schedule. CMoN has learned a few things since Sedition Wars launched back in 2012.
@A.B. so much anger eh? John's point was that while delayed, this game isn't really any more delayed than many, and indeed significantly less delayed than some. Ogre was just an example. Of course, having been a Reaper Bones backer, you know this very well, so really you're just being an ass. Are the SMV fans happy with the delays? No of course not. So far you've invested in 2 kickstarter projects and both have suffered big delays. Does this tell you that CMoN/SMV and Reaper are both useless? or is it more true to say that this is what happens when you trade at the sharp end of games manufacture rather than waiting for the games to arrive on the shelf in your local store (when you're none the wiser)? I suspect it's really the latter - these delays during initial development and manufacture of a game are normal and kickstarter just serves to make the struggle to bring product to completion very obvious to the masses.
@Joe You make interesting points, though you seem to suggest the bits we're waiting on now were due in November 2012 - that's not true - we got the November shipment (the actual game plus a bunch of bonus stuff) in January, and the current stuff - wave 2 / terrain etc (none of which is needed to play the game) was originally due in March, so September shipping is going to work out at about 5-6 months late. Not ideal I agree, and while it's in no way an excuse, it is on par with pretty much every other game of this type that's out there.
Making the game here (where's here - UK or US? - no matter) might have been quicker, and it certainly would have made quality control a simpler task and so hopefully have avoided some of the issues they've had with the tiles etc, but it would have cost significantly more (trust me - there's a very very good reason why China does the majority of this sort of production - it's almost always cheaper to have stuff made over there and shipped here rather than made here - crazy, but true). There's no guarantee that the delays would not have happened either, and there's no evidence that the delays have been a product of distance rather than anything else. Things may change in the future, particularly as the Chinese economy grows as there will come a point where their workers demand higher pay to cover their ever increasing cost of living, but that economic crash is likely a decade or two away yet.
CMoN greatest error in this kickstarter (imho), and I believe this also applies to most of their others, is that they have not been good at communicating when problems have arisen. They tend to wait until their backers have worked out that problems must have occurred and they are being called out on it before they pipe up and explain. Personally I think if they'd been more upfront, more open, we, the backers would have felt closer to the process - we'd have been far more aware of the perils of getting things manufactured, and as a result, far more accepting of the delays - an informed customer, even when that information is not necessarily what the customer wants to hear, is a (relatively) happy customer, whereas a customer left in the dark will start to believe the worst and assume everything has gone to hell in a hand cart. In other words, communication is key. The other classic rule is to under promise and over deliver - factor in some wiggle room into time scales, and never ever give a time scale that you can't deliver to (there is little doubt that they have done this at times - telling us in January that they'd still make April delivery for wave 2 (when they knew they hadn't even got things mastered) for example - we (the backers) worked out even then that April would be June/July at the earliest) Combined, the two rules mean that customers are pretty much always happy because they aren't kept in the dark. Recent updates suggest that CMoN may have finally taken these concepts on board - arguably too late for this kickstarter, but a refreshing change just the same and one I hope they continue to employ in their other endeavours - their backers will thank them for it in the end for sure.
Good lord, will you shut up about Ogre already?
WE GET IT -- you don't think anyone's allowed to comment on delays because you're still waiting on Ogre. Guess what? It doesn't have anything to do with this. Put a sock in it already, or take your dumb fanboy crap to the Studio McVey forums where it will be appreciated.
@Joe, I'm assuming you didn't back Ogre, which is 11 months delayed, at the earliest.
"TCO doesn't really apply, at least for us." No, it applies to CoolMinOrNot. Several people have already stated that they will not buy from them again. Customer satisfaction has to be taken into account. If everyone would have received their products in November, but it did cost more, would those people buy again? There are a lot of factors to consider when outsourcing to China. As fuel costs and well, shipping issues, after all, Relic Knights has been hammered by this problem for what, an extra four months, the cumulative effect could grow significant. Coolminiornot has countered this for the most part by offering a ton of minis for a low price. If those minis could be sourced locally for an increase that wasn't completely outrageous and could be countered by raising the prices slightly, would that be better or worse? Problem is probably that the sourcing can't be competitive at all but as manufacturing improves and manpower itself is eliminated, that may not be true for long.
this game is very good just had to change some rules. looking forward to the 2 shipment
Thanks for the update. I'm as eager to get this stuff as the next punter but would rather you told us (like this) about delays. These things are going to happen. There is a lot of negativity floating about out there, some of it warranted and some of that, constructive. Personally, I'm still excited. I still want to play this game (and actively do) and can't wait to get my second bundle of goodies!
Months of delays and shonky goods have already killed all the buzz and my enthusiasm for this game, so another week isn't going to hurt anything. Still not going to back another CMON kickstarter either.
@John Dominguez - the obvious answer would be no - CMoN made it quite clear that the window for changing addresses had closed in update 109. You could of course try a cheeky email to firstname.lastname@example.org, but don't get your hopes up.
So does this mean that everything will now ship at the same time, with Terrain and revised cards?
but we (the backers) aren't paying for the time taken, so while we might have gotten things faster (perhaps), we would almost certainly have ended up paying a lot more. TCO doesn't really apply, at least for us.
I wonder if anyone has done a time study to see if the materials were made for a higher cost locally how much time would've been saved and perhaps other projects started. TCO is more than just three letters.
So past caring to be honest. Once this kickstarter pledge is complete, I'll be selling on I reckon. :(
So do we have time to update our shipping address if it changed?
@Cool Mini, due to various misfortunes, life, work, family, I was not able to order an updated rule book, can I order one at a later date? Thanks
hardly unforeseen - everything else you've had shipped so far has been stuck in customs for ages. It might well be that this smaller package will get through quickly, but it won't be a surprise if it doesn't.
@Jason You're right, we'll be more cautious with the way we phrase updates in future to account for possible unseen circumstances.
but that's my point. Communication is key, it seems like I've said that a gazillion times, but it's also important to under promise and over deliver - in other words statements like "we will only be able to continue shipping on Friday" sound good, but they should come with a big fat word of warning. Better to say "we hope to continue shipping on Friday if the cards get through customs quickly".
Otherwise, you just set yourself up for a bunch of clamouring customers saying "what? more delays" on Monday when you have to admit that Friday didn't happen.
The devil is in the detail ;-)
@Jason Good point, we can't, since customs is a little random. But if we started posting about every single possible contingency (aircraft failure, hurricanes, tornadoes etc) before they actually happen these wouldn't be mini-update.
Wave 2 took about 2 weeks to get through customs, and the terrain was likewise (at least - let's face it, if it only took 2 weeks, then you have it by now). How can you be sure that these cards won't take 2 weeks to go through customs?
Not more delays...;/
@Orlando Absolutely, it'll be a nightmare trying to track who's missing a deck of cards.
Have you told your shippers in the UK to pause too ?
Thanks for the heads up! You guys are the best!
That is fine. I am currently immersed in painting Melusines from Mierce, a Grand Mother from Kingdom Death, a WWX cowgirl pin-up and a squad of Space Wolves.
A delay is no issue for me...
Thanks for the heads up! I'd rather get it all right at once, and I am sure you'd rather send it all at once. :)
gotta praise this update purely as evidence that you may have finally learned the mantra that communication is key.
What's to stop the additional cards from being held up in customs by a further 2 weeks? - that seems to have been at least the time everything else has taken ...
Friday seems a little optimistic to me.
On the plus side, surely the terrain will have arrived by now and you'll be able to get on with the complete shipment?
I'm glad you guys caught this. Not a big deal to wait a few more days.
Really ?!! Why am I not surprised ?!!
Oh that sucks... Glad you guys caught it in time, and thanks for keeping us informed this time! Much appreciated. :)
Can you give us a date for when you get the Terrain Packs, please?
What a shipping delay? I am shocked. : P
I don't mind a few days delay to get everything we should be getting.
The forces of Chaos just keep hamstringing this project. ;) I'm glad CMON caught this before shipping and a few more days don't matter much in my opinion.
Good catch! 'Nick of time.
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