Use this space to cheer the creator along, and talk to your fellow backers.
Have a question?
Can we get something resembling some kind of communication on this? We're about half a year from the last news begrudgingly gifted to us, 3.5 years since the original project's estimated delivery date, and just over 4 years since the campaign ended... yet the only things I've gotten out of this is a strong cautionary tale about trusting people with my money and the sense of foreboding about what voicing concern about this project is going to make me an eligible target of.
We're 3 months from the last proposed release date and any real news would be nice at this point.
How are things coming along? In February you said November and we closed to that now than February.
Can we expect a due date with a day of now?
I am writing this project off. At this point, there is no point in following along or hoping to see my rewards or a refund. The creator has turned hostile to the backers. The flow of communication has stopped. The project is spun out and shows no signs of righting.
What might be delivered will be so full of toxic emotions that it will be unplayable, and appear ugly to me. I'd really rather just have a refund, per KS TOS, but I am not holding out hope. I am done. Good luck to you all.
I'm guessing this project is dead, and I wasted my money on it. Oh well.
I don't know what Caoimhe is implying by saying she is being harassed. My interaction with the Kickstarter is publicly available right here in the comment section, with the exception of the comments that have been removed. I have sent an email to Kickstarter asking why these comments were removed, as there was nothing abusive there, but received no response. It's a damn shame, as I can already see people are reading into the removal as a sure sign of the supposed harassment being real. Far as I know, comments are only removed if creators specifically request it from Kickstarter.
Well she did give us a potential finish date and a percentage of where the project is. Sure the percentage was presented in a snarky way making me feel like it was her way of basically telling some of us backers to shut up, but at least we are taking baby steps towards updates that have useful information. Sure, I think an honest answer to the question of how many chapters are finished, how many chapters aren't, and how much those chapters need work work would have been more informative.
I wouldn't be surprised if she considers me part of the "conspiracy" against her. I have not contacted niether her nor any other backers, but the fact that I have been critical of this kickstarter has probably been enough to lump me into the "gang". I get the fact that kickstarter isn't a store, but it's also not a GoFundMe charity either. To expect unconditional support after YEARS of stringing us along is unreasonable.
At this point I think I should avoid this project for a while.
Good luck in your writing.
Here. Call this. They are likely better to deal with you than people that are already aggressively upset at you. I'd rather you called this number than make a blanket statement about being close to suicide and no one said a damn thing. I'm not going to be the kind of person that is going to ignore that kind of cry for help.
Second, I have, in my whole history of Facebook, unfriended 2 people for toxicity. You were one. I don't know if you know how your attitude comes across but it's not healthy. Please see that and make a change in yourself as much as you want others to. It may help with your depression issues, I don't know. That's what the number above is for. I am not interested in listed examples for trolls to gloat about. Just letting you know you have a toxic streak too that left me feeling uneasy about reading your FB feed.
Third, it is wrong to tell people they may push you to suicide so that no one gets your work. Do not put that on our shoulders, you may end up triggering people with these kinds of statements. Please consider others when you talk like that.
Lastly, all I wanted was an update on when you're book is coming out with a bit of a timeline. November is a good start, can you narrow that down.
I asked for these updates so that it can be professional. When it's not, people get angry and aggressive which creates backlash. It's a vicious cycle. Just do your best to keep it clear and others will be happy.
So now it IS a contract, but it's a special kind of contract with no terms. Ok, I get it now.
Kickstarter provides a funding platform for creative projects. When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they’re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator’s offer, and forming that contract.
Kickstarter is not a part of this contract — the contract is a direct legal agreement between creators and their backers. Here are the terms that govern that agreement:
The more you know.
Shut it down, refund what you're going to refund and release it on your schedule. It seems a lot more honest than blaming masculinity for every problem and letting two trolls run your life.
I won't read this. At 3 years late, I am so emotionally divested, I won't care if it ever arrives.
When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.
If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.
In the end, take it for what you will.
I am no man.
From what I can tell, there's only two people "harassing" you. I simply wanted my money back, but you instead decided that complete silence was the way to deal with this.
But okay. November it is then.
@Dalriada; I feel like there's going to be no persuading you to my point of view. A point of view which I believe to be rational, open, honest and sympathetic.
This platform is not trade; it is a crowdfunding platform. Crowdfunding is not governed by such strict things as contracts; it is more fluid, and once again I have to point out that the risk is always on the consumer.
In a bank loan situation, you are governed by a contract, which is a harder thing to wriggle out of than a promise made on a crowdfunding platform. That said, sometimes even a bank will waive or suspend payments on the grounds of hardship.
I agree that Kickstarter is not Patreon. But equally it is not eBay. I don't mean to say that my expectations are lower just because we're online. But crowdfunding comes at your own risk, and always has done. If you are not willing to accept that risk, then I suggest you stop crowdfunding altogether.
Personally, I think your behaviour and comments go against what's printed just below the 'Post comment' button, very visibly - "Be respectful and considerate." Do not say something which you would not say to someone to their face. "Just because we're on the internet doesn't mean the expectations should be lower."
If you wish to discuss the merits and risks of crowdfunding in more detail, I suggest you take it to private messages or emails, because I feel sure that the debate is out of scope for the Comments thread.
This user's account has been deleted.
I am incredibly saddened by what I read from Caoimhe's updates. Seriously, not cool. NOT COOL.
Kickstarter is a funding platform, and NOT a shop. When you agree to pay somebody on Kickstarter, you're doing so on a promise, and on your own risk. Sometimes it pays off, and sometimes it doesn't. It's ON YOUR OWN RISK.
If a creator doesn't meet a deadline, then so be it; deadlines are always arbitrary, no matter how you feel. They are under no obligation to update you. Read that? NO OBLIGATION.
Especially, and ESPECIALLY, if they have mitigating life circumstances.
Play this out in another context, perhaps: Would your behaviour be acceptable if you weren't protected by the anonymity of connecting through the web? If you loaned $100 to your neighbour, and they weren't able to pay it back on an arbitrary date because they'd suffered a major setback? Would it be acceptable to threaten and harass them? No sirs, it would not.
Also, lighten up! This is a GAME. Sure, it's a little bit of money, but the end product is not going to impact your life very strongly. Most likely, neither is getting back a little bit of cash.
I have nothing but incredible respect for creators like Caoimhe Ora Snow. And nothing but awful, crushing contempt for those who would burden her so for no reason.
If you want to flame somebody, flame me. My email address is firstname.lastname@example.org.
Holy shit, there's a lot of BS flying around here.
In january, I asked for a refund because I was tired of a project that's never getting anywhere. Caoimhe responded and said that they could offer me a partial refund. I responded back with, basically, "how much would that be?" and then I never heard from them again.
About a week ago, I asked if I was gonna get a response or not to my question, but was met with complete silence.
Now they're sitting here saying they won't honor any refund requests at all because ostensibly people are "harassing" them; this despite saying less than a month ago that they *would* honor my refund request. I think the problem isn't so much the harassers as the creator feeling attacked.
At this point, I just want my money back. I've not been aggressive or anything. But apparently two people that may or may not have harassed them gives the creator carte blanche in ignoring eveyrone. That shit doesn't fly, even if you stick wings on it.
What they do with the project isn't my business. I feel cheated by how long this has taken, I feel cheated because I backed a project that was supposedly about bringing equality to RPGs (sorely needed), but most of all it feels as if the creator just spit in my face when they at one point promises a refund and the next just fucking ignores me.
Alas Vegas, another RPG kickstarter, had delivery problems too. The difference was that James Wallis was open and honest with his customers. Not so here.
This kickstarter is a fucking blemish on you as a creator. I want you to know that. If you're not gonna refund my money, which I fucking doubt at this point, at least do the honorable thing and donate it to a local LGBT charity fund or something.
I want you to understand that an estimate that you have to change is better than none. Just explain the situation that forced you to change it and I am sure that even now your backers would be more understanding.
Cultist, I'm hoping to have it to you all by November.
I'm trying my best here. I'm showing my work as I go along. And I've got people openly stating that they're going to harass me.
Mark, I do know most of that. I don't want to peddle vapor, though, and give out estimates that I know are likely to change.
As far as Dalriada's comments, he and Hundahl are why I'm not actually going to honor any future refund requests. I've given the refunds they've agreed to, and they continue to harass me.
At this point I'm just a few steps short of killing the project entirely, for my own mental health.
Every day I think about doing TQC work, and every day I've remembered that even when I'm working hard, I'm going to be savagely attacked by a small minority of backers who have decided to make my life miserable.
So I don't work on it. I take my morning meds and engage in escapist fantasy (TV, comics, World of Warcraft) so I don't feel more of the pain that i felt last month after posting an update. Because that's the updates are doing at this point, it seems -- giving the hateful minority a monthly reminder to come back around and bash me.
I'm a person who struggles on a daily basis with suicidal ideation. I don't need this. I don't want to end up dead because some jerk decided his $70 or whatever is more important than my health.
So yeah, right now I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm avoiding taking drastic actions right now based on my knee-jerk emotional reactions to the openly stated harassment campaign.
But I'm also trying to find a way back to thinking of this as the game I love to write and run -- instead of a source of agony due to the actions of a few.
Peace out, y'all. I'll write again soon.
You know what the backers would really like? An actual update on how much of the project is "completed", how much is left still to finish and some kind of estimate of when it will be finished.
I don't think that is at all unreasonable, given that we are now 3 years - THREE WHOLE YEARS! - past the original delivery date.
Instead we get some heated over old cut and paste job and not even a word of how much actual progress has been made. How long is left? Months? Years? A decade or two while you faff about with wikis or whatever is you claim to be doing this time and foster your persecution complex.
To be honest, I think you've got a damn nerve having a go at backers who are complaining when all you're doing is posting updates that mostly copy and paste material that has already been and tell us nothing at all about progress.
All that does is give the impression that you're taking us for a ride and you think we are mugs who will swallow any old nonsense that you care to give us.
And then you have the unmitigated gall to complain "harassment" when people call it out as the clear fobbing off that it is.
You should be damn well ashamed of yourself for treating your backers - who gave their money to you years ago - like that.
I tell you what, cancel the damn project for all I care and run off home and take your ball with you. I've given up on ever getting anything from you anyway.
You lie and lie and lie again and claim that you're the victim. I'm sorry but that just doesn't wash. You can rest assured that any project I ever see that you are involved with, I will warn everyone I know to run a mile because you do not deliver and you blame everyone but yourself.
You deserve every bit of criticism you are getting for this shambles!
This comment has been removed by Kickstarter.
Honestly, at this point you should know how many pages the book is going to be, how many chapters there are going to be, how many pages each chapter is going to be allocated, how many chapters are done, and how many more pages need to get done for the chapters still in progress.
That's is the information we have been asking for. Give us real updates by giving us real information.
Dear Creator of this project,
I have been incredibly patient in what I have posted in this comments section. However, I am offended that you actually have the audacity to suggest that you think it would be ethical for you you to walk away from this kickstarter in the way you suggest. You would not have those artworks, maps, etc if it weren't for our investment in this project.
According to Kickstarter, we are basically in a contract with you. We paid upfront and now you owe us backers. I know I have posted this before multiple times, but once again these are the questions we backers want dealt with in future updates.
What has been done to complete the project?
What still needs to be done to complete this project?
How are you going about dealing with the second question?
What sort of timeline are we looking at?
At this point, this project is years late. Piecemeal previews don't answer those questions.
I know that I have said this before but once again, "A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow." At some point you need to stop revising things over and over again and send it to the printer. It's never going to perfect, just make it work.
An increasingly concerned backer.
I'm still waiting for the remainder of my refund. If you cancel the project, you owe everyone a full refund.
The material coming forth is still very attractive, and I look forward to the eventual final release. I have not run into another game that has the feel of this one, and I am grateful for the progress that has been made.
PS: Good spotting that the classes being previewed were shared before! I'm proud of your ability to pay attention, Hundahl.
As stated before, the vast majority of the work that we're doing now is the boring, unimpressive slog of wading through and updating everything that might have changed or need to be rewritten.
You (collectively, not Hundahl) asked for updates so you know what's going on. This is what's going on.
Please note that in every update, in addition to the material that's been updated, we're also providing brand new content as well. That's also part of the process, filling in blanks -- like "what the heck are all these types of clothing??".
Robert Davis, a "full", 100% refund is not going to happen. I've explained this.
Hey, Christian Hundahl, you got a full 100% refund and told me you'd stop with the attacks, and yet you're here month after month. What's up with that? Was I simply wrong in my belief that you're a decent human being?
I honestly feel like you are the scam artist here -- you demanded money to stop with the harassment and you got it, but you still continue to this day with the behavior you said you would stop. I mean, if I'm gonna be a victim of extortion, I kind of expect the blackmailer to be at least a little honorable, y'know?
I mean, if you guys like, I could cancel the project. That means that I disburse the remaining funds among the backers (minus the ones who already opted out), and I get to keep the artwork, maps, bonus content, and other materials already paid for, and I'm under no obligation to produce anything. I can then turn around and post the game for sale on DriveThruRPG at my leisure.
That actually would be the easiest way out. It would ease my stress as I'd walk away clear and free, like the gloating fraudster that a small number of you seem to think I am.
But I'm not going to do that. Because that would be a dick move and horribly unfair to you all. It would be self-serving and take advantage of the patient, good-faith backers who didn't sign up just to get nothing in return.
So many people who said if we gave them partial or full refunds they'd leave us alone, and we did, and they agreed that we had provided what they'd asked for ... and yet they're still here month after month to attack us.
Gosh, guys. I'm starting to think this is something personal.
(Complaints from actual backers are valid, of course. It's the ones who said they'd stop the harassment if we sent them money then keep on doing so who, who are the ones I'm addressing here.)
I had to check - the Skomorokh, presented this month, is ALSO part of the same two year old preview that last month's class preview was.
The update doesn't actually say these classes are supposed to be 'new', but neither do they point out that these are rewrites of old classes. I counted some sixteen classes in the old update, so with a class each month that's sixteen months worth of updates. With two of these already presented that leaves fourteen months worth of updates. If all classes are to be previewed before the game's release, that indicates an estimated release around April next year, more than five years after the start of the game's funding period.
Do you consider that "we learned the importance of setting realistic schedules" is still correct, given that this should have shipped in 2015?
WTF? Unbelieveable! The latest "update" actually had the temerity to end with "Feel free to write to us with any questions about the game or the kickstarter." Seriously - how about we actually get an update about the kickstarter in the blasted updates? Why the hell should we have to ask questions?
I thought this update seemed familiar. Turns out the Toymaker class was one of a number of classes previewed in an update two years age!
Seems the new update combines some of the information on Talania, available in the preview rules, with an older update, slightly rewritten and expanded.
https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012 "Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill." Still waiting for that full refund
Our prayers have been answered and we are all getting refunds...no, wait...I just woke up. Oh, my mistake, the latest update is about the 2nd Law of Fashion.
I've just realised that we are being drip-fed the book by infrequent updates. If we all hang on long enough (about 20 years) we may actually have a fairly complete manuscript that we can load up to the wiki...oops...my mistake; the wiki is dead :(
Nice that we never get a response almost 3 weeks later. I'm sick of this. I bought a product that is 3 years late, and with excuses. I don't care about apps. Nor do I care at this point about wiki articles. I just want my book, or a full... that's right, a FULL refund per kickstarter terms of service.
Great, yet another update that is lengthy but doesn't say much. So things are still being tweaked and revised, but we still have no idea how much still "needs" to be done before this can be sent to the printers. We still have no idea how much longer of a wait we are still looking at.
I agree. This is way too long for us,to reasonably wait for product to be printed and sent to us. I am not comfortable in waiting 9 months for my book.
Assuming eight more laws of fashion with one presented each month before the game is published that will mean delivery time will be somewhere in July 2018. That will be four years after the start of the funding period and three and a half years after the original estimated delivery date. And that is assuming this deadline is kept. Which really is not specified in the update.
The sheer audacity is staggering.
OMG! Another update. This time we get a peek at the Dragoon close and something about fashion. Maybe the subject should have been about "being unfashionably late." One thing everyone will be overjoyed to hear is that the creators have actually decided that working on the manuscript is more important than updating the wiki...duh.
I don't think Wiki work should trump getting the pledges finished and out. Just my $0.02. Take it or leave it. This will never be opened. Just a relic of my foolishness on KS. However, Come March 1, deliver or refund immediately. This is not a request, it is a demand that you honor the Terms of Service and quit playing with wikis while pledges remain unfulfilled.
A suggestion for next time you try a kickstarter, make sure your product is finished before you start it. As other have said, we need a list of what remains, and a firm timeline.
I must say that I don't expect to actually play this if it comes out. The unique selling point has sort of been lost for me at least. Yes it can be harvested for influences on the setting, but I already got other games that has most of those parts, including one Swedish game* I helped proofread earlier this year (and that was finished and brought to market way faster than this), and there was nothing I saw in the preview of the rules of this, that I thought had a wow-factor.
* For those that can understand Swedish and are interested, it was the game Sword Princess (based on the Sweidhs manga by the same name) which came out on the 2017 Gothcon.
I agree with Anthony Elaluf. At this point I don't care about anything else other than when we are going to get the book. At this point there's a decent chance that it's just going to sit on a shelf, but at least I will have it. We need less excuses and more progress.
It amazes me on how little we get for communication. Excuses, excuses. That's all we get. It's become laughable. Years with empty promises. Third party apps? Wiki articles? I just want the book I purchased. Or my money back in total. Don't care about the artwork purchases.
Just fulfill your side of the contract.