by Burnt Island Games
Would that group pledge organizer be able to get promos for everyone in the group, or just one copy for himself?
The person who backed the game for a group pledge would be eligible for you @Peter.
I'm actually getting this game as part of a group buy. But individually myself, I'm a $1 backer. Would I be eligible for the promos in the future as well when they become available?
@M Vranas and @Yuri! Thank you for your support!
Hear hear! @ M Vranas!🙌🏽
@BIG - I backed this game for the great concept, fantastic art, and the fact that you (and KTBG) have been able to deliver several successful Kickstarter campaigns on time - or even early - while most other games I've backed have been severely delayed!
Please keep doing what you're doing!!!
I will enjoy playing this game come December, instead of worrying when it will even show up! And, by that point, these 2 trolls (out of a deck of 55 similar trolls) won't even register.
@Backers, just so you know, none of this was planned until the beginning of the week. So, we were never holding anything back from you.
If they're going to be printed alongside the game, and "sold" at shipping cost, why not just include them with our games?
In general I do believe BIG is a great team who values its backers and customers as they have shown it throughout this campaign. I don’t care for the promos myself because it makes very minute difference. But having that said, I do think that releasing promos before delivering products is quite distasteful - as if you have planned something during the campaign and held it back. I hope BIG can approach this with more sensitivity in the future
People who back a game on Kickstarter are super-fans and collectors, and KS can be the only way to get all of the game content. This update came across as a bit tone-deaf, having followed a great campaign where we unlocked lots of great content... only to reveal that some was locked behind a different project.
In any case, happy to hear the team listened to the feedback and took steps to fix this. Happy to listen if you have projects you think we should take a look at, but not if it comes across as though content for this project is being held hostage. :-)
@BIG, that is more than fair. I get that cross promotion is a thing. It was merely the poor choice of wording that I had an issue with and it seemed like this would be the only way to get those promos (the value in the Tantrum backing is really only so if you buy more than one promo set, reducing the cost, but between not caring for any of the other promos listed and being a little strapped, the value just wasn't there for me). But as you have now noted, there will be other ways to get a hold of the promo at a later date, so it all sounds good.
@BIG Great move to provide the promo cards to everyone at a later date we want it. I'm really glad I was able to provide an example of how another company handled this same situation.
Great update, love those champion trolls, makes me jelouse of the winners for sure.
Thanks for showing off the progress thus far.
@BIG I was going to forget about the promos but your offer to send them in the mail at cost is great. I often see publishers and designers react in a bad way to criticism that (justified or not) ultimately comes from being excited about a game. So the way you respond is commendable because it's genuine, honest, and generous.
@Joshua "@Bear, in the game, you use hammers to crush rubble spaces. Henja's power revolves around the smashing of rubble spaces, so her portrait shows her doing just that." sorry I didn't make myself clear enough. What I meant was that, melee combat can be (or is often depicted as) kind of an all-out effort to cut down your opponent. Hence you often see poses such as Henja, where you raise your weapon ready to smash down on the enemy. In my experience (as a human, not a troll), hammering down on hard stuff is more like a steady, much calmer effort, where nobody raises their hammer up while shouting a battlecry (like Henja seems to), but rather you focus on breathing and control, and patience since you're hammering on a big chunk of rock wall. That is why her pose seems more appropriate to combat than to digging tunnels. I was just wondering whether this was a conscious choice, as you imagine trolls hammering away like that in your artistic vision (i.e. differently than what a human would), or whether you just didn't think much about it because you prefer to have a more dynamic pose instead of a more boring natural pose (which could be a perfectly could reason), or or whether you just haven't ever hammered away at a rock and so you didn't really put much thought into what a natural pose is like.
However, I do mostly agree with Nabend in that I wish promo cards would altogether simply cease to exist.
Thanks @BIG for your understanding.
Promo cards are the embodiment of everything that is wrong with the gaming market. At best they are mere visual variations of an existing card to be swapped with the functionally identical card for bragging rights.
Usually they are outside of the established power structure, too weak to be played or too strong to be permitted / missed.
At worst, like here it makes you feel like someone cut content and is now spreading it piecemeal.
Thank you for all of the feedback @Backers. As you know, we always take your concerns into consideration. @Randy's idea of having the promos available after a time period is a great idea. The cards are going to be printed at the same time as the game; they won't be available before that, even for Tantrum House backers. We'll have the promos available to our backers beginning at Origins 2020 (and any other convention we attend after that) for free. If you would like them to be sent to you in the mail at that point, we'll charge you shipping, but not for the cards. We hope that you understand that you are our priority, and that we also want to be able to support people in the industry who support us as well.
Simple question, "will the promo cards be available in other ways in the future".
I not a follower of Tantrum House and am not really interested in backing their campaign to get the promo cards as what I feel is an inflated cost over what I would pay to the BGG Store (which I prefer to support). If the promos will be available for me to pick up after the Tantrum House KS delivers then I am content. Otherwise, I have to register that it annoys me that in order to get the promos I must tip into a campaign I am not interested in. I am not annoyed to the point of flaming anyone, just mildly annoyed. After all it is a first world problem.
You are welcome.
"People need to stop acting so entitled and offended over the most pointless of things. Get a grip, folks."
Thank you for the productive comment.
I have no issue with the promo's being offered and do not feel they needed to be included to backers of this campaign. One suggestion for future projects, would be to make arrangements in the future to make the promo's available for a cost, say a year after they were released for whatever project they were supporting. I forget which game it is but as part of the Dice Tower KS, they will be releasing them to the public after a specific exclusion period in support of the Dice Tower campaign.
@Steven - The deluxe version was just that, an upgraded, deluxe version of the standard version. Nowhere does it say “All In”. But I don’t believe that to be the point.
People need to stop acting so entitled and offended over the most pointless of things. Get a grip, folks.
Here, I'll give you $100 to go all-in on a deluxe.
"Great! Now go give those other people $10 and you can get the rest of the game that hasn't been made yet."
"What? I wasn't expecting you to be annoyed."
I sort of thought this kind of blowback was coming when I saw this update, read the comments and yep, there it was. Let me get this out of the way up front, I am a deluxe backer of HoTMK and I also often back podcasters, including Tantrum House. So this was no issue for me at all, I wasn’t upset in the slightest. I was already going to back them so I didn’t mind doing it. That being said, I completely understand where people who kickstart deluxe versions of games are coming from. I think it is reasonable to expect when you go “all in” on a kickstarter pledge that you get everything, and yes, I would include promos in that, with the caveat that they have to come out during the kickstarter-delivery period. Obviously if a promo comes out after the game has shipped, I don’t think anyone would claim you have to go back to your kickstarter mailing list and send them all one. And I absolutely appreciate the fact that board game publishers don’t make any money of promos and usually just use them to help promote the hobby by giving them to people who run gaming conventions and host pdocasts and other things that help promote the hobby (thus ultimately helping publishers sell more games) . Kickstarter is not a pre-order system, you are inviting backers to participate in the process, and HoTMK did a better job than most do (voting on colors, letting fans design trolls) and those of us that participate in the process don’t want to just feel like customers. Customers who can just be told to “go buy the promo somewhere else”. And I see how this sort of thing can come across like that. So again, while I personally wasn’t annoyed by this, I have a lot of sympathy for those who were and my suggesting to game companies going forward is, give deluxe backers the promos for free. OR wait until the game is available in retail before issuing promo cards. Just my thoughts.
I don't like this kind of stuff if it's not 'normal' available. You believe in the game from the start. You have to wait and there are already cards (that add gameplay) in the market the game does not contain. I am - like so many of us - a completionist. But this way it's impossible to be complete or you have to pay a lot of money for extra cards and you can miss it. Or you feel forced and you skip it. That's the case for "In The Hall Of The Mountain King" for me. "We've decided to get you some promo cards". Promo cards are for free. Not for sale in my opinion.
Somebody gave me the advice: "Ultimately, I've decided that promos are too expensive for the amount of gameplay they offer, and avoid them as if they were someone's overpriced homebrewed fan expansion. In a month or two I forget they exist anyway, and focus on all the tons of stuff I already have for the games I like." That's what I do nowadays.
But to be honest I avoid those games (publishers) more and more who are 'famous' because of there promo cards. Sometimes it is hard not to think about them. I visit Board Game Geek too often...
@BIG I wouldn't worry about the people throwing a fit. If it wasn't via an update in the KS they would have never heard of it. Not like all the other great games haven't done this. Gloomhaven even has entire scenarios given to youtube/KS for promotion to help friends out.
I love that people care this much about 2 cards that someone else might have despite barely changing the game experience. I like tantrum house but am not backing since this is the only promo that interested me and don't view it as that important.
@BIG - don’t sweat it. People like to get offended over any little thing.
I have to add my frustration to the mix. While it's fine if the creator wants to support other projects, it is kind of offensive that the Deluxe Edition would not include all promos. This was poorly handled. Hopefully the creator can come up with a solution to give these promos to its own backers while still making them available as part of the other project.
In the future it might be nice to just note in the campaign that this is the planned content, but you may release other content as promos or something. I'm a deluxe backer, but this doesn't bother me, there's lots of dice tower and bgg promos for games I own but don't have.
However, the part where you didn't expect the negative feedback...I mean, you guys have been on kickstarter right? Nerds generally find something to complain about :)
I understand @Peanut.
@BIG I think you’re missing the point. You asked us to back your vision. As such we are taking a gamble on you (foregoing the argument about how much of a gamble that is, I have no reservations about your ability to fulfil your end of the deal). As a reward for backing you and investing in your idea you offered us certain incentives above what will be available in the final retail product. That is why we agreed to back you. What you are now doing is changing the deal by telling us that, in order to obtain some extra benefits we have to back another project, investing more money. While the extra promos don’t affect the game we have backed they do add to it. It’s also a known fact that a lot of Boardgamers (and Kickstarter backers) are completists. As such you’re effectively playing on that fact to try and coerce/blackmail us, your loyal backers, into backing something else. Something that we may well have no interest in (I’m not going to go into my view on podcasts/youtubers using Kickstarters). That is what I, and it appears others, object to. By all means support others by commenting about them in your updates (as you have done with Endangered) but don’t try to entice. As investors in your product we should be getting the full rewards for our commitment.
@Bear, in the game, you use hammers to crush rubble spaces. Henja's power revolves around the smashing of rubble spaces, so her portrait shows her doing just that.
Thank you @Yuri!!
@Ken, we'll take a look at how we can improve upon the clarity of the font.
Well said, @BIG :).
Wow! @Backers. I didn't expect this kind of feedback on this update. Yes, we are helping our friends. That is what we do in this industry. We wouldn't be where we are without Tantrum House. And we wouldn't be where we are without you. Many apologies if this update came off as "distasteful" or that I was trying to "trick" you into thinking we're giving you something for free. These two promo cards aren't integral to the game. You can play without them and your gaming experience is not going to change. That is why we chose to add extra Troll cards and not something that would change the way the game would be played, like Champions or Spells. There are a total of 55 Trolls in the game, and these two cards just generate a slightly different permutation of resources; they don't even feature new art. Your game is complete without them, they are an extra on top of the complete game that you can get if you want. You can absolutely choose not to back the Tantrum House campaign and that is totally fine. Please don't think that just because we are supporting another campaign that we respect you any less.
As a delux backer - I am also offended.
BTW, other KS projects like Suburbia from Bezier Games are giving the promo tiles / cards being released in other Kickstarters to their backers!! Hope here is the same!
I am curious if people would feel the same way if the promo cards was an add on for this campaign...
But, you don’t need to have the promo cards to have the full game experience, folks. @BIG is a great company of people and gamers like us. No one is forcing you to buy the extra promo cards. I do get it, I am a completionist myself and I want those promo cards. Intent of these promo cards is not to screw over their backers.
I am with the others on this.
I am a returning backer (Endevor and TPA) and you want to force us to spend money on your partner if we want the full game experience, with the game even unreleased...
I pledged for the deluxe edition to have a full experient and now this ... it is nice that you want to support them but this course of action is a bit unfair, sorry.
I agree with many others. As a "Deluxe" backer I don't like this move. I already did a big economic effort paying CA$ 97 to have everything and this does not feel good!
PS: I don't have too much time for Youtube and do not know Tantrum House.
Hmmm. Odd comment but I'd suggest a subtle refinement of the font on the cards, particularly to differentiate the R's and the A's. I initially read Henja Shatterstone as Henja Shat-Tea-Stone. I can't unsee it now. :-p
So as a deluxe backer of yours (returning because I backed and love Endeavor) I'm going to be "penalised" unless I spend extra money to back a Kickstarter for something I'm not interested in. Sorry but that's completely out of order and very distasteful. Please either change this and treat your backers with consideration and respect or advise me how I can cancel my pledge and get a refund.
Couldn’t care less about the promo cards. I know what I backed from day 1 and I’m still more than happy with it.
I'm with Wohlert. I got the deluxe version to get all content, not to have stuff released on the side even before the game ships.
I'm sure you'd be able to give backers those 2 cards and leave them as optional buys for people who go for the retail game.
Really guys?? The game isn’t even released yet and you’re adding paid for promos from “partners” so those who sponsored the deluxe game will not get the full experience. I could maybe understand after release... but beforehand just leaves a bad feeling in the mouth. Perhaps a sign of how you guys don’t truly value your backers. :-(
Well at least this update isn't only advertisment like some updates for other KS I backed but the content for this game, the champions should have been the first part of this update after that you could have put your advertisment stuff.
And yes I'm also not happy to back another KS to get stuff for this game.
this update was really just a big advertisement...not really what I signed up for.