You are right. It is weird. Either it is easy and there aren't any problems and they should have shown us a prototype (and possibly a couple as they went through the process of deciding what material to use to best highlight these very cool miniatures). Or it is hard and expensive and can't possibly do anything until they have all our money.
But it is easy and we need all your money to do anything is very very weird.
They actually said it themselves a couple weeks ago, when they were showing they didn't know what kind of plastic they would use and thought posting a picture of a master sculpt would somehow help make sense of everything. That they were functionally recreating the models from scratch, that is. So for them to say they have the masters now... well, that's just weird.
@Kumquat Joss said that he did something like this with alkemy figs and that he knows how to do that
Im no expert on miniature production, but isnt a significant amount of rework required to take a master thats made for metal/resin production and make it suitable for plastic production? Isnt this due to the undercuts and the inability of steel/aluminum molds to flex and allow the piece to be removed? Ive heard that its actually easier to design from scratch with plastic production in mind than it is to rework a master for metal/resin production.
With the number of minis here this will be a significant expense that SD seems to be ignoring. And if they dont rework the models then the final product is likely going to be a huge disappointment.
wow, what a useless update. "we already have the masters" and "you're getting a great deal!" They just don't get it.
@Drew: ok disregard my previous comment I read your answer too fast and thought the first part was related to my comment about the cost of the molds, not about the packaging. I need more caffeine to wake up.
@Drew: Actually I have a half point. Whatever they say in the update is true, the master, used to produce the moulds, have been paid for a long time ago as somebody else pointed out on the general comment section. But they still have to pay for the moulds which is the most expensive part as far as I know and is hard to estimate, so I guess we have to "trust" them on this point.
I think we're having a bit of a freakanomics moment. I mean, if Sans Detour were charging MORE money, I think that more backers would have confidence in the product that they're delivering.
I had a friend produce decals licensed from some designs he had made. He found out that decals are super cheap to get made, but that he could sell a LOT more of them if he sold them for $15 each instead of $3 each.
Economics 101 tells us that the lower price should sell more, but people saw the price and assumed that the product was very low quality.
And ultimately, no one played the old Confrontation because they sold inexpensive miniatures.
Zupalex has a point- and many of the early kickstarters had an issue when it came to delivering when they offered everything piecmael.
It isn't an issue if you don't have tons of orders, and it isn't an issue if there are only a few combinations, but it clearly becomes an issue if you have thousands of completely unique orders.
@DM- I'm not quite sure what they mean by the "engraving of the masters" but I have two guesses:
1- It is a translation issue, and they mean the sculpting of the original greens (which are sometimes referred to as "masters."
2- Alternatively, they mean the metal masters that were created for making pewter molds (you don't make production molds from your green, you first make 'masters' and make production molds from those- and thus prevent risking damage to the greens).
This isn't significantly different from having the original greens to work from, since molds can be made from either. Sometimes, the greens are sent back to the original sculptors, so it isn't unlikely that SD only have the production masters and not the actual greens to work from.
To be fair to them, this isn't a small expense that they're skipping. "Industry standard price" for a sculpt is $10 per mm of height (about $300 for an average 30mm mini).
If you want to hire any sculptor who has made a name for themselves, you're going to have to pay more (I've known sculptors who charge $500 for a z-brush file of the same sized mini).
On top of that, you'll need them to be 3D printed. While you can get chap prints for $5 or $12, if you want a 3D print that's good enough to cast from, it will cost you more like $200 (I've found good ones for $180- but you have to understand that there's a shortage of machines working at that quality level, which is why 3D printing can take some projects so long).
With 250 minis- many of them large, and many very detailed- they're probably saving well over 100k that a similar project would spend just to get a model to work from.
I think a lot of the concerns were from inconsistency (they previously said that they'd need 1.25 million to offer some of these sculpts, but then unlocked them when the funding was actually going down).
Often, Kickstarter numbers are made up to keep things interesting (ever notice how CMON Kickstarters hit a stretch goal every day- whether the funding ends up at $4 million or 700K?). It is possible that SD priced out the whole set of 250 minis, then tried to space out their stretch goals appropriately to make it interesting (as CMON and nearly everyone else does).
OK margach I can wait march 2020 ! ;)
@Isaac Alexander: Don't mistake the cost to produce the miniatures and game components and pack it in ONE single big box, and producing many more different boxes, requiring separate packaging and handling of all the different orders. I can see how the second options would actually be 4 times more expensive.
@Melhilion Ctrl+C Ctrl+V 10 minutes later. I have already read your comment in the main comments... ;)
Thanks for saying something about it.
Just to make sure I understand: you say "you pay neither for the engraving nor for the fabrication of masters" because SD "own the original miniatures allowing the manufacturing of the molds".
Who pays for it then? The moulds don't exists yet as far as I understood? So they need to be manufactured and that will cost money to somebody. If it doesn't cost us, backers, money then who is paying for it? SD invest their own funds in it?
If 300k was all they needed in the first place, they could have gotten that and more if they'd offered individual factions.
this is what they keep telling and telling. the problem for experienced KS backers is the way the run the kickstarter: they are just not present in the comments, they dont interact with backers. this is why people are leaving, dropping etc.
Kickstarter is no preorder - it is supporting a company - any we backers support because we trust them or not. it is all about trust. and to some people not reacting to posts or questions (in comments or private message) means waving red flags.
dont get me wrong: this project may be delivered or not. i have made a lot of experiences. nearly 95% of the projects i backed got delivered (nearly none by the expected date). some offered a poor quality and others told their backers the have to pay more money.
but there were some that just did not deliver. and as a backer you cant do anything against it. full stop that is it.
and if you see how comments are not answered and if you see that are are not 'ready-to-show' miniatures (doesnst matter why) this is why we have the loss of backers.
i was very happy the first days with this campaign. but the more days it runs the more disappointed i get. this is sad. this could be great. but for me - it isnt.
@Aiodos, I see that's your first project in Kickstarter...then I understand your optimism. Please be aware that delays happen, especially in miniature Kickstarters, so if I would you, I wouldn't be so sure about the delivery date. ^^
@margach I'm not blind because even pessimist people say that it will be fund. So I'm sure that I will receive my box with 250 MB's quality confrontation figs for chrismas 2019... :)
We don't pay for the engraving of the masters? Because you own the masters? The hell does that have to do with anything? The steel mold etching needed for plastic would be completely separate from the rubber molds from the old models... Is this to say that there were outside investors dumping tons of money into the molds already? And if so, seems like there should have been some decisions of plastic quality already made/potentially even having some samples run.
@Aioidos, are you blind ? Funds keep dropping after this update ! Of course it will fund at 300.000 €, it's stated at the damn rules of Kickstarter itself ! The question has never been that. And here, all we have are SD's words that it will be fine. That's what we had since the very beginning ; words. Do you really think it will bring back trust ? It will only make the funds dropping more, at this point... :(
Thank you for this actu ! Many backers will be reassured. :)
And @mark yes zeeloby is very predictable. He's a king of mascot for this kickstarter, so much that we talk about him on other forums... Zee, you are a well known guy ! ^^
I appreciate the update thanks. I'll keep my EB pledge and I wish you guys success in the closing days.
@Zeelobby... You're getting predictable.... and annoying as $%^...
There were questions concerning whether or not 300k would be enough to publish the game...
For the people who don't want to go through 1000s of your spam-posts, this is asked and answered...
I mean I'm sorry, but is any of this actually new news? I mean short of the 300K being what they needed (which it should have been from the start)... Sigh... This really is a purely unsupported faith-driven KS.
Merci pour cette explication complète :)
Thank you for this comprehensive explanation :)
As this is production fully costed and you assure us that the initial target is sufficient to complete the necessary work. Please confirm whether you are using Steel or Aluminium moulds for production of the figures.
Vous auriez pas pu le dire dès le départ pour calmer les rageurs. BOn courage pour la suite ;)
Would you mind explaining why offering separate factions would cost additional 950K?