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Cubes don't roll so well. This 12-sided die is numbered 1-6 twice. It is rounder, and balanced. It's the iconic d6 evolved -> d(2x6).
6,916 backers pledged $133,495 to help bring this project to life.

SG #5 Unlocked; Dice Layout; Pip Colors Poll; Logo, and more

Posted by Matt Fleming (Creator)
13 likes

Dear Team Doublesix,

Thanks for all your support. We are maintaining a great pace!  Notice here how we continue to hold the trend towards about $80,000.  Please keep sharing and promoting this KS, like with this Reddit post (thanks Techmyst), in relevant forums like in DakkaDakka (thanks, Adam), or just by Facebook liking the KS page.  Doing so will help me continue to pour on more Stretch Goals.

STRETCH GOAL #5 UNLOCKED!: 2 additional Y colored dice (Solid Red) added to each NON-BULK order.

DICE LAYOUT: The next thing we have to determine is the layout and look of the pips. I have been wanting the pips to be placed in the standard/classic d6 arrangement (to clearly indicate to others that it is a d(2x6)). However, there are other options(see the lower six dice on the image below).  You will be able to vote on your preference in the pip color poll (link below), and I will take the results into consideration.

Larson arrangement
Larson arrangement

Initially, I wanted opposing faces to have the same number as this would add to the balance of the dice (same # of indented pips = same weight).  However, Criswell brought up an interesting concern about axial rotation and bias (e.g. if I had two 6s on the opposite sides of a cube, and 1s on another axis, I may be able to (in theory) influence the outcome of a roll based on how I threw (rotated) the dice, and because of the axial weight difference).  Complicated for most of us, and probably negligible, but it actually leads nicely to...

DONATIONS, BUT NOT CONSULTANT FEES, ARE FORBIDDEN BY KICKSTARTER:  As I previously mentioned, I am not allowed to promise to give a financial gift to anyone (in my case, the Ron Larson (original patent holder) sponsored Washington-Lee HS math club).  But, I am willing to pay $300 to the math club to make a thoughtful proposal on what the best (or most fair) layout for the dice to be.  Thanks to the many of you that messaged me about this similar idea.

RATE BLACK and SOLID RED DICE PIP COLORS: As mentioned, the first two colored dice to be added are Black and Solid Red. Please rate (from 1-5, worst to best) the pip colors for each here.

Please note that I will likely make limited-run Kickstarter green dice (Hex #76CC1E; thanks Rick) with black pips.  Because of this, I didn't add KS green as a pip color option on the black or red dice.

LOGO:  Thanks to those of you that voted for the Doublesix Logo.  The clear winner was Dhanika's, with a 4.1 (out of 5) average rating (325 ratings). 

Dhanika Logo
Dhanika Logo

 And second was Ziher design's, with 3.0 average (281 ratings).

Ziher Design Logo
Ziher Design Logo

These were also my top two favorites going in.  Dhanika's captures the essence of the idea (dodecahedron, with two 6's visible on one dice) though it may not be literal (the actual dice will likely not have 2 sixes adjacent). 

Ziher's also has two sixes, but the pentagons may not adequately convey the idea that the dice are dodecahedrons. But I like how the logo is skewed (compared to Ziher's other similar submission), which to me, hints at dice rolling.  

DOUBLESIX FRIENDS: Please check out the other current Kickstarters:

Throwigames Simple Role Playing System: a tabletop FRPG designed with flexible guidelines to allow for quick play and heroic adventuring.

Call of Cthulhu: The Writhing Dark Playing Cards and Tarot. Final 10 hours! The artist behind Albino Dragon's Playing Cards brings you a terrifying vision of the Cthulhu Mythos...The Writhing Dark.

Thanks again, team.  I continue to be honored and humbled by your support and engagement (honestly, tears came to my eyes as I wrote that).

Matt

Comments

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    1. Criswell The Tiny Epic Weatherman on

      I want to say something about FATE/FUDGE which you have indicated is the likely next project. Fred Hicks of Evil Hat has said that he is considering a mechanic where the FIRST of the four dice has a special effect. So, to take advantage of this future mechanic (which may never happen) I'd like to suggest FATE/FUDGE sets with the same dice colors but different colors for the + and - signs. Just something to consider.

      A.

    2. Matt Fleming Creator on

      Please direct your general responses to my latest comment below to the main comment area (I copied most of this there as well, so everyone can be on the same page as we discuss this).
      .
      Thanks.

    3. Matt Fleming Creator on

      About Standard and Hybrid pip arrangement: I will START with Standard, and PROBABLY add Hybrid on later, despite my reluctance as this is more cost and more work trying to fulfill 3000+ orders with even more different dice, as Roman mentions. Though I want to keep it simple, I also want to start and grow a brand.

      And I worry that more options will also lead to more dissatisfied backers as folks say "but I wanted the Blue base with white pips to be in Hybrid, not Standard." But like Alan suggests, I will do another (better designed) poll soon to see if we can estimate that at least 10,000 Hybrids will be ordered

      The value of Hybrid it that will help with the Doublesix brand, as d(2x6) can easily be knocked off. That is, though there will be the Classic (Ivory with Standard Black Pips) for the purist and average gamer, other non-traditional colored dice with the Hybrid layout may look clearly like a Doublesix Brand dice, which is something I want to happen. But then I wonder: will the current logo be confusing or dilute the brand? Arg.

      @Sable, Hockey, Kickstart: I have similar concerns, especially how the Larson 6 looks like a Standard 5 (with a pip in the center). I don't want it to READ WORSE. I think I may have to get a Hybrid prototype made by Eric and see what you guys think (I will show a video of it in actual use).

      @David and Rick: thanks for weighing in, especially as you help me think about future goals. As this KS takes off, I need to reconsider what I want to happen/can happen with the brand.

      @Tim: I was assuming that you, like everyone else, originally backed thinking you would get the Standard pip arrangement. I doubt anyone would pull out (except maybe you) if I stayed with Standard. Many are more likely to pull out if I ONLY do Hybrid (which is NOT going to happen).

      I agree, the poll was a little confusing, and I am learning as I go along. But I think that though some people, as you say, want clarity, most others also want to be part of a growing and evolving product and project.

      Kickstarter is not a store. The way I see it, this is not a restaurant, either, where you order and get something clearly on the menu. To me, this is a dinner party (with a cover charge), where I am hosting and cooking, but wanting to know what specific tweaks you guys want with the courses.

      Because this is crowd-sourcing (not just pre-ordering), this is going to be messy and confusing, but I will do my best to be clear. This is my first Kickstarter, and my first run at producing a product. If you are expecting more clarity and better management, you and others are welcome to leave the kitchen, and return later on in the process when things will be clearer and better managed.

      @Brian and others: thanks for your flexibility and support :)

    4. cyphersk8 on

      I would love teal to be a base color and my choice of pip layout is traditional!

    5. SuicideKing
      Superbacker
      on

      Larson 6 looks like traditional 5 at first sight. It looks great, but would be confusing. Really a bad idea. We should immediatly understand the result of the dice, without any doubt, even thinking for 1 second means that the dice are unusable.

      Larson 5 looks a little bit like traditional 4, but not as must a problem as the 6.

      Larson 3 and 4 are ugly, in my opinion.

      So no doubt for me: traditional.

    6. Renotek on

      A double-six with a standard pip arrangement is a "cool improvement"
      A double-six with a Larson arrangement is a "wacky redesign"

      I don't like faces 2, 3, and especially 4 in the Larson arrangement. With the standard arrangement nobody will notice the flaws, because that is what everybody would expect on a die.

      So I'd really prefer the standard arrangement.

    7. SableFox
      Superbacker
      on

      Actually I do prefer orange on black :-) but, white on black is my second choice. I can always colour white pips orange ;-)

      On the pip arrangement: 1) I am glad it is sorted now; 2) much as I visually like the Larson arrangement for 5 and 6, I've several decades of training to recognise standard pips, so I no longer have to think about what value has been rolled on 2d6/3d6, I just 'know'. A new arrangement of pips would mean relearning them.

    8. Shirts by Shurts on

      @Tim - "To be clear: For now, we are sticking with Standard pip arrangement" I think that's pretty clear.

      Although since we are now around 50,000 dice (!!!) you may be right that multiple molds could be made. However, not only is Matt just creating dice for people he also wants to establish a brand so he may want to have just one pip arrangement...!? Or he'll let the market speak.

    9. Patrick Daily on

      I really like the Larson arrangement, but the hybrid is acceptable.

    10. Brian Horstmann on

      I'm getting dice no matter how you arrange the pips.

    11. Tim Braun
      Superbacker
      on

      PS - If the minimum order quantity for a new die with different pip patterns is 10,000 pieces you have more than enough existing die orders to offer both the standard and hybrid designs. Please correct me if my math is erroneous.

    12. Tim Braun
      Superbacker
      on

      The choices we were offered does not include a hybrid choice. (Standard 1-4 & Larson 5-6) My choice to continue to back this project will depend on your selection of pip pattern.

      I've read you post below and already I have concerns about the management of this project. The poll was poorly managed and you have given incomplete responses to piecemeal questions. People want clarity from their KS campaigns. Spell it our for us ALL please.

    13. Brian Horstmann on

      I picked Standard arrangement but would prefer a hybrid if available.

    14. Sean K King on

      I think the Larson layout is the one I like but would get both...

    15. David Chase on

      My (semi-professional) opinion on what pips to use in your dice
      If you are only going to do this KS and nothing more, do the hybrid/Larson layout, because it will add to the uniqueness

      If you are considering doing dice, this die or offering dice in the future as part of another company, do the standard pips.

      Here is why, You want the greatest market available that would like/want your dice. The standard pip will recognized by joe blow public, even the non-gamer ones. This is important to have the dice well like by all so that you have sales.
      When attempting to get other companys to consider using your style of dice in their games, you only to work with/against the uniqueness of the die shape

      Me personally, I like the hybrid/Larson but I would also buy both if available.

      (I say semi-professional since I use to work for WizKids, LLC and have to produce/develop dice and products in support of their games. Along with Fleer Trading Cards in producing games for them also.)

    16. Alan
      Superbacker
      on

      @Matt -- Right now we've got > 2000 backers getting more than 5 dice each so there's at least 10,000 dice so you've got one mold covered. Would enough people want 10,000 dice in a *different* format? That's a tough one. But you've got 32 days to find out! Wait until after Christmas and ask people what they want. We might be surprised!

    17. Hockey Mask on

      Well hopefully this KS is hugely successful for the creator and those who pledge and the future brings us all kinds of colors and pip designs.

    18. Kion
      Superbacker
      on

      @Hockey Mask: Having argued regarding production costs (see my previous comment) and unlikely scenario of different pips layouts for bonus and non-bonus dice, I do understand your position and think that if possible at all, the best way to resolve this situation (i.e. satisfy both those who prefer standard/classic layout and those who want it a bit more fresh and new (mixed layout)) would be to allow backers to choose between standard/classis and the mixed one... But again, I suspect that this wouldn't be possible (or too expensive) from the production perspective, so I doubt project creator would go for something like this (plus, this would also be much harder to manage for them than having just one layout for all dice)...

    19. Matt Fleming Creator on

      To be clear: For now, we are sticking with Standard pip arrangement, over Larson or Hybrid.

      the idea was that if there was a huge preference of Hybrid over Standard, our first mold would switch to Hybrid, which would apply to ALL dice.

      Then I contemplated (just a written thought) a second mold for Hybrid for colored dice, AFTER producing the 66 Classic ivory/standard black pips. This is why there is some confusion.

      But for THIS campaign, a second mold for Hybrid is very unlikely and unwise because, just like with the d(3x4), I can't be sure folks in this particular KS will order 10,000 units of them (the minimum order for a new mold).

      And I am not sure it is worth running an entirely new KS campaign for the Hybrid version (though I may do so for the FUDGE dice and d(3x4)).

      SOOO....I will eventually do a quick show-down poll of Standard vs Hybrid, and if Hybrid OVERWHELMINGLY destroys standard (like 90%+ vote for hybrid over standard for the first mold. I doubt it will, but I can't assume I truly know the will of the masses), I will stick with standard for this KS bc that is what everybody thought would happen, and what everyone initially signed up for.

      Sorry to be confusing folks with the brainstorming and ideas. But that is the beauty, and challenge, of working out loud with a crowd.

    20. Kion
      Superbacker
      on

      @Jon Beige: > remember that this vote is only for the BONUS dice from the stretch goals...

      I don't think so, actually. I'm pretty sure selected layout will be applied to ALL dice. Mainly b/c it would be cheaper (or the only way possible at all) for production, but also, b/c [1] it just seems to make more sense this way (i.e. I personally do not want dice with mixed look-and-feel, I want them all to follow same pips layout, etc.) and [2] it would be much easier to manage it all this way for project creator...

    21. Hockey Mask on

      @ Matthew The 3 and 4 are awkward and the 6 seems like it would be confusing. Seems to be a 5 at a glance.

      @ Jon I wasn't aware that this was only for the BONUS dice. If that is the case I would suck it up and enjoy the white dice like I was expecting when I first signed up.

      The brilliant design of these dice is they are DOUBLESIX DICE: ROLL BETTER. Not DOUBLESIX DICE: READ WORSE. I love the idea of a design that has been tweaked (12 sided) but has its feet firmly planted in tradition (classic pip design). Tweaking the sides and the pips removes the dice two steps away from what the masses are used to.

      But if the design is switched to the Larson design I am sure the removal of my $10-$25 from the campaign will far from break the campaign.

    22. Jon Beige on

      For everyone who is threatening to pull out if the Larson layout is picked, remember that this vote is only for the BONUS dice from the stretch goals (at least that's my understanding)! The majority of your dice will be white with black pips, and will be in the standard D6 layout.

    23. Matthew White on

      @Hockey Mask What about the proposal on mixed dice, where we use classical for 1-4, and Larson for 5-6? I find 3-4 on Larson to be the odd part, but I love the 5-6 set up.

    24. Hockey Mask on

      If this goes with the Larson layout I will have to pull out. Just too odd for my taste. It would be better at that point to just have the number stamped on it. Not trying to sound threatening just letting you know where I stand.

    25. Rick Bledsoe on

      I seriously think that the Larson layout would be a dealbreaker for many.

    26. Jeffery Qualey on

      Thank you Criswell for being brilliant (this is a sincere comment). Dr. Larson's invention is perfectly balanced with the same number on opposite sides, but only sitting still. You have to wait until next year for my axially symmetric solution. To make it the "standard dice" layout removes the point of trying to balance it. However, I can see that as being more visually appealing in a familiar way. I'll take my chances with whatever I get in the random rolls, but this line of discussion makes me desire a 3 x d4 so much more.

    27. Shirts by Shurts on

      How about a Classic 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 with a Larson 5 option. That would get my vote.

    28. Matt Fleming Creator on

      Yes, I was sloppy and unclear with the poll instructions. My apologies. Though I said rate, rank was easily confused with that, and not helped when I said "worst-best." The results are still pretty conclusive, so I am not sure I have to do a re-poll, unless the masses really prefer orange pips on black over white pips, and dark blue/yellow on red over white (i doubt this).

      As far as the Larson-Classic hybrid, I may have to include that in a follow-up vote off before casting the mold since it seemed pretty popular, just to be sure.

    29. Jon Beige on

      If you recreate the poll, I'd say try to make it with 4 options for the pip layouts:
      Traditional
      Larson
      Hybrid
      Combination (half traditional, half larson.. Maybe put the pips on the "2" closer together on the larson so they stand out, and make the "1" a different color or shape.. Maybe the doublesix logo?)

    30. August Dwight on

      I also think you should throw out the results of this survey and send another. Please add the Larson/traditional hybrid pips as a third option, with a 1-2-3 ranking like the color options. I also think it is much more intuitive to rank things from most preferred on the left to least preferred on the right, regardless of what numbers you use. (I also screwed up my survey initially. I caught my mistake before I submitted, but it was a very easy mistake to make. I think numbers from this poll are going to be weird.). Whichever way you do it, spell it out for us, e.g. "5 is what you want most, 1 is what you want least," etc.

    31. Jon Beige on

      I also prefer the idea of having all 6 standard pips on half the die, and the 6 larson pips on the other half. I think this would make a very unique setup, and it could make it possible to use as a normal D12 too (if you color one of the 1 pips differently).. You could say the larson pips are valued at 6+n and use it as a D12.

    32. Shirts by Shurts on

      @Jeff - I think there is enough of us that messed it up that it probably starts to be significant...

      The Larson 6 looks like a 5. When I roll dice, the result should be crystal clear and immediate. I think it would be very confusing seeing that. We're all used to a 2 pip x 3 pip grid (and I know that the point of these is to be new and different). Also, the 1 and the 2 are identical in the Traditional and Larson diagrams... just rotate the 2 and it's the same. the only number I like better on the Larson is the 5 (for obvious reasons).

    33. Private Shopper
      Superbacker
      on

      Yeah, i rated at 1 = best 5 = worst. Mainly because when I first looked at the top group i automatically thought I was supposed to rate as choices first choice, second choice, etc. Probably because there were 5 options and 5 ratings.

      This is what I get for not reading the directions closely. That said, my single vote shouldn't be that statistically relevant anyway. Next time maybe I'll just roll a die. :P

    34. Matthew White on

      Because you are basing your idea that we prefer classic on a poor sample where a major option is not even available to be picked! That is not at all an accurate polling without the mixed option. You have time to put all three against each other, so try it first before you leap. (:

    35. Matthew White on

      @Matt I too am for have the traditional 1-4, then Larson 5-6, so for now I picked traditional. Why not redo the poll with all three options before you go ahead and jump the gun and assume that traditional is the best way to go, because it sounds like everyone who prefers mixed went traditional, so things could change drastically in a second survey. I am quite certain that it would be very possible that the mixed version would become the leader in a second poll over both the others as the primary configuration. Try it!

    36. Cindi Jo on

      I just read a few comments, but seems like I'm in agreement with the majority. I like the 1-4 traditional and the 5,6 Larson. Awesome!

    37. Missing avatar

      Landon Kryger on

      I dislike the Larson 3,4 but the 5,6 work great for a pentagon face.

    38. Matt Fleming Creator on

      Hmm...mixed layout sound like a popular option, though early poll data has Classic being preferred 2:1 over the Larson. If we did do another mold, we may have to poll Mixed vs Pure Larson.

      @RiTides: d(3x4) may be another Kickstarter because there is no way to know in this KS if people will really commit to the minimum 10,000 unit order and new mold.

      @Will: interesting stuff. I will pass that info along the Math-club if they accept our offer.

      @Jason: good point, and thanks for the link. I will pass along that info as well. All of this is really negligible, but an interesting problem to explore, as well as a reason be charged $300 for an answer.

      @Nigel: yes, good point.

      @Sean: the Classic Ivory with Black pips will be most of everyone's order. There will be bonus colored dice, as well as add-on options.

      @Jason: thanks for that reminder.

    39. Shirts by Shurts on

      1 - Glad I could help :)
      2 - Can you redo the survey? I assumed 1 is the best.... I really don't want Orange pips!
      3 - Hmm... don't remember my third thought...

    40. Justin
      Superbacker
      on

      If fig 4 ever became official I would have to back out. For me it's fig 3 or nothing at all.

    41. Mallory Sheldon on

      I like the mixed classic and Larson arrangement as well.

    42. Erika - Ninja Cowgirl of Brimstone
      Superbacker
      on

      I also like the traditional layout for sides 1-4, but the Larson 5-6 positions looks very nice and is distinctive. Perhaps a mix of the two?

    43. Nicolas Theriault-Langelier on

      About the place of the numbers on the dice (ex: 6 on opposite side) I've seen at least one game that rely on flipping the dice 180 degree to use the value facing the table instead of the value facing up in certain cases (I'm thinking about Flash Point). That would be another argument against the initial idea. I would go the same number placement as a regular d6 having the "n" number opposing the "7-n" number.

    44. Aaron Pope
      Superbacker
      on

      @Jason: I second the notion of highlighting the stretch goals toward the top. It'll let potential backers know that they are already getting more for their money.

    45. Sean on

      the standard white with black pips will be offered along with whatever color wins correct?

    46. Kion
      Superbacker
      on

      I'm with David. Having a "mixed" variant would be AWESOME!

      I.e. traditional layout for 1-4 and alternative (Larson) one for 5-6.

      This looks like a win-win to me.

    47. Jason on

      Also, update the stretch goals section (we've completed goal #5 now) as well as the list near the top. Remember, statistically speaking, users will not read below the fold, so keep that information at the top up to date.

    48. Nigel J
      Superbacker
      on

      Matt,
      If you do go with the Larson arrangement you should consider changing the logo to match.

    49. Jason on

      It sounds like the alternative method assumes that the dice shape will evenly rotate about the axis. Watch a dodecahedron rotate about an axis:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch…

      While it might be theoretically possible to "dice set" a d6 about a single axis (thereby eliminating 2 sides of the die from ever landing face up), it is VERY difficult in real life. A dodecahedron has a much more complicated rotational symmetry and since it cannot land on an edge, I doubt it's even physically possible. It might reduce the probability of a few sides from ever facing up, but the fact that it cannot land on an edge and if it did, the force of the roll would likely equalize the probabilities (continue rolling past to the less likely side).

      Therefore, I stuck with the classic layout.

    50. Missing avatar

      Will Benedetti on

      I wouldn't worry too much about the pip placement problem. There are two potential arguments that would say that pip placement matters:

      1 - spin down arrangement. Some d20 based games ban the use of spin down dice because players try to spin the die with the 20 side up rather than roll it. Even if it doesn't land on 20, on a spin down die you can increase the odds of getting a 15 or higher if you spin it right. By nature, standard d12s are almost spin down in design. The 9, 1 and 12 share a common vertex with the 1, 2, and 4 sharing the opposite vertex, yet nobody has ever complained that someone tried spinning rather than rolling a d12. With your original plan 6s on opposite sides, 5s on opposite sides, etc. spinning a 12-sided d6 would be less controllable than spinning a standard d12. Deliberately spinning a d12 on one vertex you will find that your most likely to get one of the faces adjacent to the vertex that is opposite that being spun on (the vertex pointing up), least likely to get one of the faces adjacent to the vertex being spun on, and the probability of one of the other six faces is somewhere in between. If the same number is on opposite sides of a 12-sided d6 then the advantage that the number facing up has will be partially cancelled out by the disadvantage its counterpart has from being on the other side. This is assuming people are spinning the dice instead of rolling them as they should be.

      2 - weight distribution. If you drill out x amount of mass per pip then the side with 6 pips drilled out is 5x lighter than the side with only 1 pip drilled out. It is a legitimate argument, but one that gamers have been dealing with all along. On a standard d12 the side with 11 on it has had twice as much material carved out of it as the side with the 1. For some reason, people are more likely to point out weight discrepancies when dice are numbered with pips instead of numbered with numbers.