by Monolith Board Games LLC
This set comes with stat clips, correct?
I like all the male sculpts. But Penthesilea. I imagine her more like a warrior. She wanted an heroic death! She was a very strong and heroic woman. With strong arms. With an armor of a warrior. Can you make Penthesilea like a strong woman? If not her (her sculpture being finished and all), maybe another amazon? Hippolyta? Antiope?
I have just joined and backed the campaign. Is there any rulebook already, pls?
I can respect your opinion, I would only hope for more people to respect my opinion as well. It is perfectly acceptable in my opinion to say that you don't like the style, but some people do that over and over, forcing me to say over and over, that I like the art and sculpting. Because if I don't, I might get a nasty surprise that the art and sculpts will be changed (it happened in more than one project, sometimes right before sending everything to the printer and with informing backers only when everything is too late).
Thanks for that statement. You don't like the females as they are, but you accept the designer's choice and will take your own actions (changing the sculpts, using different minis or not buying the minis in question,...). Kudos to you.
We do like the game and do want to buy it. What's wrong with expressing our point of view?
And I think the creators would rather we buy the game than not.
The most funny comment is Nick Zube's response to a comment about the biologic and evolutionary reasons for women wanting to look sexy. heh funny stuff.
Well, I cant use the sexy lady models as they are, ( I will have to modify them will a little sculpting) I don't like them and my wife would not like it and I don't know what my daughters would think. But the real deal here is that no one is required to buy this game or play with any of the miniatures. Everyone has the right to complain, but really, If you don't like it don't buy it. I am not sure how so much complaining helps anything or anyone
I disagree to all the naysayers regarding Penthesilea. The argument that one is more sexualized when the men are not, even though they are barechested and that somehow justifies them as "macho" strong warriors, while Penthesilea is not is ridiculous. The problem appears to be a person's own discomfort in what should be appropriate or not. It is pure hypocrisy. The dude in armor that is half-naked is somehow "ok", but the woman cannot? This focus of "oversexualization" seems to be more of a problem by US than any other country.
Don't like it? Don't buy it. Problem solved.
@John L S Foster
Sorry, but I can't agree with you on comparing a female breast to a penis. At least in Germany topless is no problem in public, especially if at the beach. It might raise attention, but it isn't forbidden. But full nudity will be more problematic - for both genders.
So, the comparable equivalent for the penis would be a vagina and I don't think we'll need to talk about that.
I wouldn't know which male body part could be considered comparable to female breasts, somehow the female breast seems to be special. But considering your statement, that the outfit is designed to emphasize the breasts and to push the limits of what is acceptable, a male equivalent might be a huge bulging crotch. I would consider that ridiculous, but it wouldn't be enough to feel offended.
By the way, if someone wants to have minis with male genitals, have a look at the Journey: Wrath of Demons minis, some of them come with visible male genitals, which amused the female players I know a lot.
While I can accept Tom's opinion about the topic, I think it is just one opinion among many. I can tolerate if people don't like sexuality in games. I don't share that opinion, but I can accept it. But I would like to ask for the same in return. Why can't people accept that I have no problem with nudity in games and that all the female players I know have no problem either? If I don't like something in a game, I don't buy it (or in case of just one or two minis in a huge game like Mythic Battles I don't play with those minis that I don't like). If I know the people I play with feel uncomfortable about something in a game I will not bring up that game with them, but play something else instead. Why can't others do the same? Why do people have to make their opinion the only acceptable? Monolith hired Paolo Parente to contribute to this campaign, so they seem to like Paolo's style. It should be their choice how their game should look. Our choice should be to decide, if we like it enough to support their vision or if we don't like it and therefore don't back the project.
This Diomedes sculpt looks great. Too bad he has those oversexualized alpha male abs...
Hmm btw Ajax holds a Roman legionnaire's shield or what? And yes his grip on the hammer seems weird.
@ Jason So the question is why should be tits but not dicks? I believe that it has something to do with how reality crosses over myth. Greek fighters did not go nude on war, and greek women did not go to war at all. Greek armor was 30 kg of metal so no woman could actually wear it. Apparently there are no depiction of armored women at all. As for men there are nude depictions of heroes on works of art, and there is the picture of the real greek fighter on full armor, which is much more impressive. Obviously artists prefer what they believe it is more impressive. And there are a few historical guys in there btw, not all are fiction.
Ofcourse you got some very good point there. The real puritanism, that is tottaly contradicting to ancient greeks' perspective on the matter, is male nudity. It is apparent in every aspect of our lives in west cultures, and not only them, but since the discussion has come up to the point that some people will feel uncomfortable to introduce this game to family and friends (especially female ones) because of a few naked women minis, imagine how many would feel far more uncomfortable to do it with naked male minis. While it makes sense under the view of being true to the theme, people are not used to it in the same degree nevertheless.
I'll admit my main issue with this is more that I'd have rather seen a "Heroes of Troy" and a "Heroes of Greece" which we could have added Andromeda, Priam, Aeneas alongside Aphrodite, Hera and Eris for example. And I can see what people are having issues with in regards to Penthesilea as while she is usually depicted topless or having one breast uncovered this outfit verges on impractical. Perhaps making one breast entirely bare and giving her a more covered chestpeice for the other half of her torso would be more fitting.
However I do think the discussion in the comments has devolved to little more than bickering. Sexualisation will always have a place in society and saying that we're "past" such things is naive at best. Ideally the easiest way would be perhaps to focus the scantily clad onto Aphrodite and reduce it slightly elsewhere, though I've nothing wrong with sexualised models it can sometimes be a little over the top as in the case of Penthesilea here.
Don't 100% agree that Diomedes is a pure God (or titan) killer; his defense is far too weak for that. He would function very well as a defender against an agressive melee God or titan, making it a lot harder to get to YOUR God(dess)!
How the heck does Penthesilea fight in that skimpy Marvel comics outfit? She would raise her arm to strike and a tit would pop out. If she is a warrior, put her in armour like her male counterparts not some weird comic inspired skimpy dress.
Again love the male minis, but the female mini just looks stupid and juvenile next to them.
There's nudity and there's titilation. One is the sort of thing you see in art galleries, and the other is the domain of Benny Hill and the Carry On movies. On the whole society has moved on from the latter.
In the UK we no longer air episodes of Benny Hill, with good reason. It is no longer appropriate and hasn't been since the TV networks were entirely run by groups of men. Saying that you are right when society as a whole thinks you are wrong is difficult to take as anything other than childish. Saying that those who don't believe Benny Hill is appropriate anymore also don't appreciate art is, to be frank, stupid.
Paolo Parente appears to have the box set though. Just Google his work. It's basically a collection of teen-male fantasy images featuring young girls in submissive poses, often involving some form of bondage. That stuff has had it's day. Let the guy retire like we did with Benny Hill.
Classical Greek art didn't do this so stop arguing that it did. Yes, there was nudity. But more often than not it was the males that were completely nude. Why are we not seeing that? Why are we not seeing the homosexual undertones that were in so many of the stories (and Greek culture at that time)? I think if it was more in line with the actual art and myths you'd be quite surprised by just what you did get. It's not what you're thinking, trust me.
@RatTatoum Yes there is definitely a point there, but also some people voicing such concerns in the campaign are missing another point, of equal importance or maybe of more.
There are people that can't discern "nudity" from "unnecessary nudity" or even "forced nudity".
Artemis was the most critisized model here. Objections were 100% justified there imo. Artemis was a modest goddess, one of the few that kept her virginity and ethos with such care. She even turned a mortal to a deer so his hunting dogs ate him because he got a glance of her naked by mistake while she was bathing! And even if they wanted a more freely approach to the matter, the sculpt was mediocre, and you could see that if you looked beyond the boobs. The artist had it all wrong there. Kudos to creators for changing this. It has nothing to do with censorship here, it is just improving the model in every aspect.
But hearing concerns about Spynx or Scyla? No man sorry, we are talking about censorship here. Those monster were depicted as half nude women everywhere. From tales, to ancient art to wherever you check it. I even had as a kid a KID'S BOOK of Odyssey that had Scyla drawn bare-chested. I did not ruined my life or my sister's or seemed to bother my mother. Because it was NATURAL. It was as it should be. And you must admit that artists are modest there just for bothering put hair to provide some cover. There is no offence there unless you are looking to find it.
@Timmoth You obviously don't understand how backward and grossly offensive the things you have written are. Just once, say those things aloud to an authority figure or a group of adult men and women. You will mark yourself to them permanently as incredibly oblivious to the rights of human beings.
Once again, to those who don't understand why some of us are annoyed
by the art/minis portraying female characters in this campaign, this might give you an idea:
https://youtu.be/Xd-Pg899b4U… (~ 8 min. long)
But I guess it's easier to keep thinking we're puritans.
Just a notice: In some occasions the greek name of the hero is preffered (e.g. Odysseus instead of Ulysses) and in other ones the Latin(?) one, as in here Ajax instead of Aias.
Penthesilea is a) a great choise b) a nice sculpt c) a ridiculous choise of sculpt for the matter. I do like the mini, but not for this character and what represents.
But afterall here we got clearly a mix of mythology and fandasy, which is also weird as you seem to pay too much attention to keep too many things in accordance with the original story (where Hollywood never really cared to do so).
Thinking on the 'Mourning Penithsilea' rule, that would be a good mechanic to employ if they add the centaur Nessus - any model that inflicts a wound against him in close combat receives a wound in turn from his poisoned blood - making the only safe way to deal with him ranged attacks.
Did someone juste compare male genitals with femal breasts for the shok factor?
Its starting to get rediculous
@Haru: "Is it possible to show some photos from the side of Penthesilea? I'm hoping that her legs are apart from each other then I can reposition her legs. Her posture is really awkward. Has someone tried to stand with cuisse in such a position and even tried to fight with two heavy swords? It's impossible!"
lol, come on... First, no, this miniature isn't a Barbie doll, you won't be able to do w/e you want with her legs. Second, it's not a fighting pose, it's a... pose and there's nothing wrong with it. And unless you're yourself the daughter of Ares, there's no possible way you know whether it's hard for her to use 2 swords at the same time or not.
This is a game about war, about gods battling it out to be top dog. This is not a game about finding a husband (or wife). There is no need for any character to be sculpted in an over sexualized way like she is. Look at the other four characters in this offering. They are all in full battle armor. The men all look like they are ready for war. She looks like she's going to have a wardrobe malfunction halfway through the first swing of her sword.
I dont know what traditional amazon warrior garb looks like but give her full battle armor like the others. Make her look ready for battle - like someone a god would actually recruit.
Fully clothed and armored women can still be sexy.
I'm somewhat curious as to why female characters should be the default offering to the female players in any group. Seems to me people would rather choose their own, and should a female not be impressed with a certain character than I suspect they simply would not choose that character.
More dumb arguments about sexy looking women. At what point have we got repeated ourselves enough? How many more million times does anyone here need to say the same junk again? If they didn't care the first time, they don't care now.
@ John L S Foster - Of course we won't see any men with their arses or crotch hanging out. That would be considered distasteful! :D
@Ryan : so just because his work doesn't please you, he must be fired at once ? Please, do consider it's just a game and that you must choose your words wisely before stating something like this... Is this real... Come on...
Awesome work on this add on, guys. Will definitely get this one.
There are some heat in this update! I for one (since everyone is giving their opinions) have enjoyed Paolo Parente's work in this project thus far and see no issues with them. Leo had said they wanted every characters in this game to feel unique from each other so they wanted Penthesilea to have a Wonder Woman feel to her (also since the movie is coming out soon so the Monolith team thought we might have appreciated this reference but I guess not). Those of you who do not approve can show your dissatisfaction by not buying this expansion (or any others you have issues with). But let's not be immature about this by attacking the artist for their work.
It's natural for females to be more sexualised than males, it's part of the evolutionary process.
Females are evolved to be sexually attractive to males - they actually like dressing pretty or sexy and looking good for males. Males are evolved to be tough and strong as protectors - females choose the best presented protector and potential provider - it doesn't require sexuality.
Males and females are different and like different things - they don't have to be given equal treatment.
Also, it's not only 'teenagers' who have fantasies - it's not somehow immature.
@ John L S Foster: Amen, brother. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Also, please consider removing Paolo Parente and his work from this project. He has clearly demonstrated over the course of his career that he has issues with women and can't present them as anything but oversexualized objects and sexual playthings.
I hope ya'll consider reworking the Penthesilea model.
@Dagda - There is absolutely a difference in how these miniatures are being portrayed, by either a European or an American standard. Her outfit is designed to reveal as much as possible without being actual nudity and is blatantly sexual in doing so. The barechested Spartans are full nude from the waist up, not teasing out little glimpses of body parts for obvious sexual effect. You show me a sculpt with a bit of cock teased out from a low waisted leather skirt on these and I might agree the men are treated equally. You can't pretend its anything more than fanservice. I'm not saying fan service is wrong, but I am saying that it would be nice for a mainstream game like this to include both genders and not cater to such a limited audience as %50 of the population. And anecdotal evidence goes both ways: my wife and 2 female gamer friends have both given me the same feedback I post when I showed them these minis. Its not being offended by nudity, its wanting equal portrayal. Show her as a serious warrior, not an overly sexualized fantasy.
Man... So much complaining... About female bare chests... About Ajax's hammer size... About miniature postures... About tiny details that won't be visible among all other miniatures when over the board...
My only complain is why those minis aren't SG... And why there aren't more Harpies! :(
Isn't "Cheesecake Xena" a redundant phrase?
@ Dagda - RE: Talking on behalf of women
From what I just re-read of the posts below, these people are only speaking for themselves. If other men or women have a differing opinion...that is cool.
If women choose to comment on a male mini, I would not tell them it is not their place as a woman to be commenting on that. Nor would I assume they are speaking on behalf of anyone but themselves.
Awesomness for it shall be mine :)
Dagda - If the Spartans looked like this I might agree with you:
Cool set. I like the Penthesilea mini. She looks like an awesome cheesecake Xena.
Good point Dagda
Penthesilea should have an ability where when she begins swinging her swords and he boobs pop out, her oponant should miss an attack as they take in the sight.
I think Penthesilea doesn't look worse than the Spartans. But no one complains about those sculpts.
@John L S Foster
So, you are saying that we have to cover up females in games because bare chested women in reality attract more attention than males. Do you really think that is a good argument? shouldn't we instead discuss why females can't be as carefree about their nudity as men? Why do some have problems with naked women while naked guys are acceptable?
Based on my friends the women have far less problems with these minis and illustrations than all the (male!) backers indicate who threaten to withdraw their pledge because they feel that women should feel offended (as I said, in my exprience the women aren't offended, so I find it presumptious of men to say how women feel about this). But I guess Americans might see that different to Europeans.
Love the sculpts on these. Keep em coming!
May your souls rote eternally in Tartarus for what you all are about to do to my bank account.
Well, i don't like the work of Stéphane Simon. Almost all minis have matter of disproportion : often small legs & too large handle (like the hammer of Ajax. It's as large as a tree trunk).
But it's my opinion. No problem. I know how it's a hard job.
More, i pledge & will take some add on. I think we need to support project like this to make the next better !
I join many posts about Penthesilea. The team proved us they made research on greek mythology. So wtf with this design ?
Read me, it's a really beutiful mini, but that have no place in this project imo.
Well, not for me this add on.
What the hell is wrong with Penthesilea's sword tips?!!!
Please change them to normal sharp sword tips!
(Boobs are perfect)
More silly boobs. Not as bad as before though.
Is it possible to show some photos from the side of Penthesilea? I'm hoping that her legs are apart from each other then I can reposition her legs. Her posture is really awkward. Has someone tried to stand with cuisse in such a position and even tried to fight with two heavy swords? It's impossible!
Love the Amazon. More figures like that please!
great job with this set ...
she's not hunched.Only on the first pic,because of the patafix used to stick the mini on the base.
Except for Agamemnon's face I think these all look fine. Still hoping that Hippolyta makes it into the game.
Penthesilea, I agree with Xavier and Fils Des Loups. The problem I have is the difference between the sculpt and the plastic. Did no one notice this? She is upright in the sculpt and hunched over in the plastic. Just how was that accomplished and what benefit does it achieve?
Holy crap guys - at least have the decency to make some males who look like they stepped out of a fetish video. Even Adam Poots is making male pin-ups.
When it's only the women - that's sexism.