by SPIEL Designs: Michael Singletary (deleted)
Help us bring our solid brushed aluminum RPG game dice to production. Rounded corners,Sleek Design,Perfect Weight,for true gamer's.
Funding for this project was canceled by the project creator on February 25, 2013.
Use this space to cheer the creator along, ask questions, and talk to your fellow backers. Please remember to be respectful and considerate. Thanks!
This comment has been removed by Kickstarter.
Wow ---- first the Amazing Jellyfish and now these dice - at first I backed both projects and both seem to be resellers - thx community you saved my hard earned money - but we have to keep our eyes open :-)
For those wanting good dice, with any luck Amber Rix will continue making more dice after she finishes the kickstarter ones: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/124127689/precision-machined-dice
Kinda bummed. I never thought i'd run into a scammer on KS especially like this. Thanks for all those who sniffed this guy out and saved ALOT of people money! I still really want Dice so I will traverse the web with the comment's yall have posted! Again thank you.
Wow I missed a lot! I'm so glad about our community though and that everyone here was able to bring this guy down, especially you for catching it, Sly Kly! Good find, seriously, you saved a lot of us from investing in crap and lining his lying pockets, he's what really ruins a site like this but thankfully the community is what keeps us all together at the end of the day. I thought something was off when he said it wouldn't be cost efficient to produce a six set of dice, yet he had a five set and ten both with cases like that made more cost sense? That didn't sit well with me, nor the whole automatic case thing, just seemed weird right off but I figured it as another gimmick to sell stuff on here and thought maybe they had an abundance of cases or some jazz.
Sly, you be sure to hit me up when you list your dice Kickstart as I'm obviously still in need of a really cool set! ;)
Andrew, you totally mindfucked me with your scientific knowledge about dice physics and weighting them and balancing out mass, seriously, every day we learn something new but that's about the last thing I thought I'd learn today, though I think the same can be said for our ex-Kickstarter mate! It was pure joy watching him talk like he knew what he was talking about then reading you school him, pure joy and happiness. I love it.
You guys are all great, Spiel sucks, glad he went down, good job and sorry I wasn't around to contribute to that dangit!
You are welcome everyone! Look for my "Lucky Dice" coming soon.
Thanks for exposing this. Just had a look at the alibaba site and all it looks like he has done is buff the imperfections out and flog it here.
Thanks Karl and Brent. Karl you scare me but in a good way. Brent : My plan is to offer international. I have to check pricing before I commit to it though.
The part that gave this away for me was when he said he had a legal team. Likely had them on retainer too...
@Sly Kly, I'll keep an eye out for that. You have my backing if i'm interested with what you have to present. (AND MY AXE!)
Sly - I'll keep my eyes open. Hope you make them available to Canadians :)
Well that was disappointing
After seeing the Precision machined dice do so well it brings the scammers.
I noticed how fishy it was right away since I have been studying different types of dice since I want to launch my own Kickstarter project based on a cool type of dice. Keep an eye out for it in less than a month or so!
Thank you so much Guys for exposing him and making Kickstarter a better place for all!
But for now the twitter link is still up
Leaving in a blaze of shame. Removed link to facebook, cancelled kickstarter account...
Thank you Sly Kly - really glad you exposed this fraud. I would get the other dice on KS but they're only to the states :( Guess I'll wait for the next legit one!
I'm so grateful to you guys for saving us from being scammed.
The 16mm argument is out the window...
Under would have won. Another scammer bites the dust. I hope KS looks into this and prevents him from ever offering anything again.
Yeah! Finally he had the guts to stop scamming people!
Wow, you're not even trying now. Well the gig is up. Anyone want to place bets on when this is cancelled or shutdown? Over under on 24 hours?
In response to update #6!
Please stop trying to rip off other peoples products as your own!
These are the exact alibaba dice.
I had my own project and one the easiest way to spot a scammy reseller: ask them to make a small change even as an option. If you are in charge if every aspect of production, you should be able to have a better reason for not offering different one pip. But no.
When I had my project people asked me for better pictures and for alpaca. I did it. But for you to buy dice from china and then sell them to us as made in America is just lame and mean.
A pox on your house!
At most all he is going to show us is ones with the pips colored in. Hardly a project that needs funding to just color in the dots of something he bought from china.
I have reported it so should everyone else.
I wanna thank all the great backers who saved me from giving money to this scammer
He is obviously not going to give us any proof. At this point I would suggest that everyone report this project. He doesn't have to prove anything to us but he does have to to Kickstarter. Hopefully they'll get the information we can't. I wasn't going to report waiting for Michael to show us the error in our ways but if he wishes to involve Kickstarter for removing comments we can do the same for him to prove his product.
Reported. (You can report at the bottom of the project page. When you pick "this is not a project" you're given a chance to type in why)
Yeah I think I'm going to back that other Aluminum Dice in KS right now instead of this now. The pictures are way too similar for this to be coincidental. Show us your prototypes or proof that you really do own this or hell buy from the retailer your calling cheap "knock offs" and post pictures for us to compare then I'll reconsider
Please stop sending harassing comments. The more comments you send the more we are able to send to KickStarter showing harassment. If you aren't going to back the project stop sending messages.
I love the idea of kickstarter and I take pride in backing the projects I have and will in the future however every single "project" like this which violate their guidelines make it harder and harder to trust the site. To have that trust maintained people like you must be stopped. You have no proof, you had copied pictures from another site which you've taken down and there is no evidence of your project plans not violating the rules against reselling existing products.
This is funny! The creator can't provide proof that he makes these so he has basically been caught red handed. So he is trying to get these comments removed because they might be rude. He is crying out "Hey I got caught trying to sell an existing product but these guys are exposing me in a not so nice way. Please ask them to stop."
Oops my last 2 comments was a double post. I didn't see my 1st one go through so I posted a 2nd similar one.
Thanks for removing that photo from your video that was a direct copy of from someone else offering the exact same thing. I thought that was your photo though. Nice try on another cover up. Kickstarter has already been aware of this idea and my comments. But not because of me but because of you trying to violate the terms and conditions of Kickstarter.
Please stop posting comments if your aren't interested in backing this project to receive our product. Your messages are not becoming a form of harassment. And we have reported you to KickStarter per the guidelines.
Please stop harassing with rhetorical questions making indirect threats. Why even pledge and then make harassing comments. If you aren't going to make a pledge for the product stop sending us messages then. We have already sent a message to KickStarter asking to remove your comments and harassing threats.
I love that you reeditted your video to remove the copyrighted, oh wait who owned those photos? Right. Way to continue to try to deceive your backers.
Your case is the exact same thing as the links show. They also are felt lined. How can you tell from a picture that they are of substandard material or the rivet size?
Stop embarrassing yourself and either provide simple proof that you made these or admit you are trying to sell an existing product.
How can you tell from the pictures that "your" case is made from more durable materials? All of the links I have already posted have felt lined carrying cases.
Stop making a fool of yourself and either provide proof of you making these yourself or admit you are trying to resell a existing product.
I believe I have to remove my pledge as well in light of these concerns that Andrew, Kyle, and the rest have raised. They are asking you for simple proof of a few facts, but you are not providing anything beyond a sales pitch. I will keep an eye on this Kickstarter, and if you manage to put up proof before the campaign is over I will consider repledging.
Our case features are different. For one it is felt lined on the inside and our rivets used are smaller by design. Our case is also designed from a much more durable aluminum grade metal.
Yup. And thanks for posting word for word your same post from 2 hours ago to Kyle. You still haven't answered why, if you are selling a UNIQUE product, are you using the EXACT same case shown on the other websites selling the same product? If yours was so unique, you'd think your case would have been different.
As a Machinist myself I can tell you that from your photos that your dice are not raw Aluminum either. Your pics are the exact same thing you are calling cheaply made and very poor quality.
As for some Chinese Factory stealing your product pics! That is a tall tale if I have ever heard one. Those pics look 100% professionally taken. If you had them professionally taken then you should have proof of that. A receipt of some kind and 100s of other photos that should have been taken to get the right shot. But then only after someone asks for a picture of the aluminum case is when the "Metal Shop" sent you one. This just keeps getting more and more comical by the minute.
Just keep digging yourself a hole. Just try and produce one more image of how these were manufactured, a receipt or bill from your machine shop after you 1 1/2 of development, ect ect. Until you can post more than a few generic statements and keep trying to blame China for stealing your idea although they have been selling it for 8+ years now.
Our dice were not balanced based on casino dice regulations as these are not casino style dice. We used molded model calculations to determine weight distribution and balance. These dice were simply created to use for at home card and board games. Thanks for your input though.
We have taken a look at the sites you mentioned in your comments and there are a few things that are definitely different in our dice and the ones you posted in the links. They do appear to be similar but the overall physical make up and quality clearly do not match up. Not even the characteristics.
Firstly it appears that some foreign Chinese factory has gained access to 2 photos that we had posted on our pre-launch website that we had posted, but had taken down as we noticed a few of our design photos had be leaked. We made sure that we safe guarded the photos posted in this project launch by not listing them on any website of ours.
The dice in the links you supplied do not appear to be aluminum even though they say so, they are way to glossy and metallic to be raw aluminum. Or they may be coated. They appear to very cheaply made just by looking at the rigid lines and groves. Very poor quality dice on the links you posted.
Even at looking at the pips they don't appear to be machined the same. Our dice have more of a recessed pointed 1 pip, while the 1 pips from the links you supplied are circular and do not have much depth.
Also the dimensions are not your standard regulated RPG size gaming dice. Standard size regulated dice are 16mm in dimensions. Our dice are standard regulated size 16mm RPG dice.
The links also do not state the dice are equally weighted and balanced. This is a very important factor.
Nor are the dice in the links aluminum brushed to give the dice a sleek smooth feel and appearance.
Yes you can purchase cheaply made dice that may look similar but the quality clearly isn't there. And the dice in the links you supplied are not standard.
We do appreciate the fact that you showed us similar dice on the market but they clearly are poorly designed and not the same as ours. Even the aluminum case appears to be made of some type of cheap aluminum.
Oops Correction: I meant to comment about the Creators statements, not yours Andrew. You are right on the money and Michael is just trying to keep is head above water before Kickstarter shuts this down for trying to sell an existing product.
I am sorry Andrew but that last statement of using silicone gel to create a model is not a method I have heard of before. I am a Mechanical Engineer and a CNC machinist and that method you described does not even make sense. Please list the CAD Program used and the name of the "Machinery Software" that calculated and captured the data?!?
Any kind of 3D modeling software can tell you the exact center of mass of of a model.
Once all these questions started coming up you are coming up with these half baked answers that do not make sense.
As well as calling and existing product that has been around for 8+ years a knock off and not up to your standards ect ect.
Just keep on digging yourself a hole.
Thank you for all your responses Michael. I appreciate the effort.
However, understanding how balancing works, your explanation of how you achieve balance in your dice does not add up. Not even taking into account colored pips and dice with engraved initials on one side, both of which would unbalance dice and neither of which have been explained in any of your posts; simply balancing your basic dice is essentially impossible without filling in the pips and making them flush with the surface. Seriously.
The most basic example of this would be if you positioned the 6 side of a d6 facing you. Now hold the die such that one corner is touching the table. You will have an upper row of pips on one side and a lower row of pips on opposite side of the face. The mirror side of the upper row of pips will only have 2 pips, since the middle of the mirror will not have been drilled out to make a pip. This mirror side with 2 pips will have more mass than the side with 3 pips (by definition since each pip on the face has the same amount of mass drilled out). Since one side of the face has more mass than the other, when the die is balanced on its point, the die will tend to roll toward the side with more mass. This necessarily means there is an imbalance in how the side is laid out. Without filling in the pips with material of mass equal to the material used to construct the die, it is literally impossible for you to correct this imbalance without unbalancing the die even more.
As such, I realize that it would be beneficial if you were to consult with some mathematicians in your design process since you are not accounting for these issues. I wish you good luck in your en-devours, but I came here looking for machined dice that were balanced by taking into account classical dice balancing issues, and your explanations have shown that you have shirked the methods by which these problems have long been solved. As such, you cannot, by definition, have properly balanced dice; thus this is not the kickstarter for me.
I am removing my backing and hope you change your production philosophy in the future.
Let me clarify when creating the dice the work shop used a silicone gel substance to create a model using computer software and machinery. Once a perfectly balanced model was created by removing mass and filling back in mass while creating the pips for each side, then we were able to determine the exact weight of a standard 16mm game die. Once all the calculated data was captured by the machinery software we were able to make the machined aluminum dice.
I understand your frustration with all these questions, and I apologize for the hassle, but my previous question was only that you upload a picture of the finished dice. Your previous response specifically stated that you balance the dice by filling in the pips. The pictures currently on the main page do not show filled pips, they should empty pips, which by your previous post would cause the dice to be unbalanced. All I am asking for now is a picture of the ultimate final dice that backers will receive. That is the most reasonable request in this entire comment thread.
We have tried to answer and entertain all questions but unfortunately you can not satisfy everyone.
The quality in our dice will reflect the true picture. There appears to be a cheaply made version of a product of similar design floating around online, but they are not standard RPG size dice, they appear to be of some metallic made material, and are not raw brushed aluminum. Please do not be discouraged as you will be receiving quality 16mm solid brushed aluminum standard size RPG gaming dice.
Thank you for your response Michael. Your answer makes sense, but the photos of the finished dice that you have uploaded do not show pips filled in with the silicone gel form substance. The uploaded photos appear to have empty pips that are not flush with the face surface. If the finished dice have pips filled in with this substance, could you please upload photos showing these finished dice?
To answer your question more specifically, as stated in a previous comment we tested two different methods when determining the balance of the dice. The more accurate way we found out while working with the workshop producing the dice was calculating the distributed weight across each face of the dice and fill the pips of each side back in with the same mass removed, while creating the pips of each face side. But instead of using resin the workshop used a silicone gel form substance while creating the pips. This had to be done in order to make sure the mass taken out was added back in when creating each side of the dice in.