Share this project


Share this project

Fire Mountain Games, publisher of "Way of the Wicked" launches a subterranean adventure path for the Pathfinder RPG -- Throne of Night
Fire Mountain Games, publisher of "Way of the Wicked" launches a subterranean adventure path for the Pathfinder RPG -- Throne of Night
314 backers pledged $40,640 to help bring this project to life.

Use this space to cheer the creator along, and talk to your fellow backers.

Have a question?

Only backers can post comments. Log In
    1. Derek Blakely on

      @JHewett - Michael has said that the majority of the funds went to him to pay for all the art we’ve seen and haven’t seen. The rest went to Gary. I’m not sure on the specifics, but the way Michael talked it sounded like a 70/30 split. And yeah, despite 40+ people all reporting Gary and all of us using the same reference numbers, and bringing up others or pointing out the projects, KS only sent out copy & paste responses. Their response to our threatening to never use them again was essentially a “Bye, Felicia.” The website has been down for a little over a year. I posted links on the Paizo forum for this KS.

      @Kevin - Thanks for the info. Could you share this on the forum?

    2. Kēvin Zoren

      Also the number is 877-382-4357

    3. Kēvin Zoren

      I filed a complaint with the FTC today; you if think it's futile I'd point you to what happened with the Doom that Came to Atlantic City kickstarter:… . The FTC agent that I talked to stated that the more of us that call in about the project, the more likely they are to launch an investigation. For reference my case number is #91801780. I'm guessing you can tell them these cases are for the same incident. The timeline for the FTC to take action is much more flexibile; there is no need to wait until May. My phonecall with the feds took 5 minutes and I wasn't on hold at all this morning; if this project was worth the 120 to you, I hope you'll consider 10-15 minutes of your time worth making sure this sort of thing is addressed appropriately.

    4. Kēvin Zoren

      Anyone else notice that the Firemountain Games Website is a dead link now?

    5. JHewett on

      Isn't it wonderful how many projects Gary has backed himself?

      Now I can't be 100% sure that funds from this KS were used to back projects for himself, but it does seem highly suspicious and definitely unethical.

      I wonder how he would feel if one of the projects he backed did the same thing to him? Probably would care as it is our money he is spending in all likelihood.

      And kickstarter continues to operate under their 'hands off' policy...the least they could do would be to cancel his account...I'm sure this project has been reported enough time to justify it.

    6. Derek Blakely on

      Happy New Year everyone.

      Gary, you still have four months and one week left (May 7th). Have the project do right by you.

    7. Derek Blakely on

      Just wanted to say Merry Christmas to everyone, and hope 2018 does everybody right.

    8. Mirko Hess on


    9. Missing avatar

      Erich McNaughton

      In all probability, but it won’t be with this Kickstarter...

    10. Derek Blakely on

      Wonder if we’ll see any Christmas miracles this year.

    11. Derek Blakely on

      Hey, Gary. I got 4/5 stars on my instalment of an AP. It was Book 6 of 6. The only reason it didn’t get higher was because of some editing and layout issues. Now can I help in the completion of THIS AP?…

    12. Derek Blakely on

      The forum thread regarding this book series was recently re-risen from the grave through necromancy. Been pretty lively these past few days. It’s been kind of nice.

    13. Derek Blakely on

      Kickstarter won’t do a thing. It’s in their terms of agreement. You can complain, and they’ll nicely prod the creators to remind them of their duties, but other than that they’re not responsible for anything else. They urge you to try be civil and contact the creators to negotiate terms and ask questions. They can’t be sued, as per their terms, but after 5 years you can take a creator to court if they haven’t made good on their end.

    14. JHewett on

      Still got active kickstarters he has backed recently...just pathetic. Kickstarter themselves need to step up and do something.

      I mean, like most of you I am sure, I have already written off the money as a loss, but that doesn't mean the 'creator' shouldn't be held to account. Unconscionable!

    15. Derek Blakely on

      One could hope, but extremely unlikely.

    16. Missing avatar

      Erich McNaughton

      So, since Gary has kindly placed our money into helping other kickstarters, do you think he will send those rewards our way? It would be nice, especially since nobody, including Gary, seem to give a rat’s ass about this project...

    17. Derek Blakely on

      Come June 1st next year, if you’re an American and can get to New York, you can attempt to. If not, you’re S.O.L. like so many others.

    18. William S. on

      Just posting again that I would really like my money back.

    19. Derek Blakely on

      I can’t believe we’re over 1000 comments now. Crazy. Still 7 months to go before something or nothing happens from Gary’s end. If the latter, the community will definitely be doing something in response.

    20. Derek Blakely on

      WotC also has released a ton of paid apps and in-app purchase apps. That’s likely also where they’re getting their cash. Digital is the wave of the current times, and pdfs are easy to rip off. They’re also probably making a mint with their Adventure’s League, much like Paizo is with PFS and SFS.
      I watch Critical Role so I know the absolute basics, and Reddit lets us know when they mess up the rules. That said, they have their own house rules too so that doesn’t help any.
      Only two groups that I know of are doing 5e, but no openings. I’d love to learn it. I’m broke so Core book, and the copyrights only allowed the minimum to be put on the SRD.

    21. Mirko Hess on

      @Kevin Zoeren: it´s usually true that RPG creators own their money by splatbooks but WOTC is in a different situation than most RPG companies what with being owned by Hasbro (very different cost situation within that big a corp). And while you are right that it´s often claimed at the beginning to refrain from doing splatbook after splatbook I think evidence supports the claim regarding 5E. It launched around August 2014 (far as I remember). Here´s the stuff WOTC has released since then:
      Players Handbook, DM Guide and Monster Manual as the Core Books (plus DM Screen)

      Hoard of the Dragon Queen, Rise of Tiamat, Princes of Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Curse of Strahd, Storm King´s Thunder, Tales from the Yawning Portal, Tomb of Annihilation --> all adventures

      Sword Coast Adventurer´s Guide --> region book, overwhelmingly fluff

      Volo´s Guide to Monsters --> Monster book with mostly fluff about monsters (a little bit of crunch)

      Monsters & Heroes of the Realms: A Dungeons & Dragons Colouring Book (obviously no crunch) and Duneology (practically a coffee table book with little gimmicks --> not unlike a children pop-up book)

      Xanathar's Guide to Everything --> the first real splatbook after 3 years. 25 subclasses, some new spells, new traps, new magic items, new downtime activities. Really no HUGE additions or changes.

      So all in all after 3 years I guess it´s safe to say that the promise not to do much splat is valid as is.

      I get your argument regarding investment. There was a time I bought EVERYTHING paizo published. not in pdf either. So, yes, I feel you. But......what use is it when I feel like I´m at work while DMing. This should be fun and frankly....Pathfinder hasn´t been "fun" for me for quite some time before I finally found the guts to call it quits. Agreed, IF I had access to a local table group and could limit what´s used I might stick with it (then again......probably not as even Core Pathfinder is waaaaaaaaaaay more complicated than 5E --> I´ll admit that I´m somewhat of a dinosaur though as I learned to roleplay in an age when "battlegrid" was an insult we threw at those wargame loosers ^^).
      But sure, in the end it´s everybody´s choice. Just wanted to say to Derek that he hardly needs to "learn" much using D&D 5E as the mechanics are what they are with D&D and there is practically no additions rules to be learned after Core.

    22. Kēvin Zoren

      I'd thought about adding a caveat in my message about Pathfinder Society being a problem, it's a fair point. I live in a rural area and actually tried to get some society games going but we were snubbed hard by the organizers after an initial promise of support at Gencon. Since then it's all local private groups. I'm glad to hear wizards has pledged to keep the splat to a minimum, but since that's usually how they earn their bread it'll be a cautious optimism. For me I'm sticking with pathfinder mostly for the amount I've invested in it. I have stopped buying physical books though and shifted entirely to PDFs. Wizards lack of support for PDFs (at least initially, have they changed this?) meant that after picking up the core books I stopped.

    23. Mirko Hess on

      @Kevin Zoren: Certainly true. But as Derek says that works only if you have a set group (if it does work then), but not if you are playing with changing groups online or playing Pathfinder Society (as some of us have to). Pathfinder Society if the players own the book the option he wants to use is in you are straight out of luck telling him no.
      As for D&D 5E I beg to differ. Wizards has made it quite clear that they will not publish many splatbooks if any at all. They are offering some options online through their site but these are really really minor (mostly additional Paths). They´ll mostly publish adventures and some region guides. So there is a good change what you predict won´t happen. Even IF it WILL come to pass that´s the way things go. But why should I play (or worse try to SL) the bureaucratic monster Pathfinder has become instead of playing D&D 5E just because of something that might be or might not be in 5 or 6 years?

    24. Derek Blakely on

      Well, depends on what’s available where you are. Here, you’re essentially looking at Pathfinder Society. It has its own house rules of what is and isn’t allowed. If you want a group game, good luck. You’re probably more likely than not going to be on Roll20 playing. Small towns suck in that regard.

    25. Kēvin Zoren

      There's an easy solution for any RPG suffering from bloat, just restrict the resources to allow as tight or loose a ruleset as you are comfortable with. 5e is nice right now, but give it a few years and it'll be as corpulant as the rest.

    26. Mirko Hess on

      Absolutely agree! Pathfinder is now a pain in the ass of number crunching, exceptions from general rules, exceptions from exceptions from general rules mixed together with a sepecial ruleset for nearly every fricking character class. And its getting worse.
      Regarding to 5E......whats new to learn? Its D&D. With a few (and a mean a FEW) bolts and locks. Played 3E or even 4E? You'll slide right in. Everything is toned down. No kore hundreds of (stupidly overpowered) feats, no more numbers crunching with THACO or BABs. Hardly any wargame-like miniature pushing, shoving and measuring. No more bigger and bigger and bigger monsters either. 20 Orks can do your 10th level Fighter in right good if he isn't up to his game. 2 or 3 trolls? Fight of his life even if he IS up to his game. Lord God it's so EASY. Believe me. You'll finally be able to BREATHE again and concentrate on the fucking storytelling. God knows I am. And yes, its a pain to bring others to give it a try but once they realize they'll never have to spend 90 fricking minutes on a single stupid common battle things usually take a turn upwards. Just saying.
      I'm just now working on my 5E Dark Sun conversion because I really want to play that again and might go for Ravenloft agter that.
      As for, I'll never play it even in the - very unlikely - event of getting something playable out of this. Couldn't without my bile rising even if I tried....

    27. Derek Blakely on

      I agree that Pathfinder is suffering from too many books. You can't find a balanced party anymore because of it. I know because I run the majority of the PFS games in this city. That said, while I like the idea of 5e and enjoying watching it be played by actors and entertainers, I'm too old and way too poor learn a new system, and it's like pulling teeth to get others to go along with you even if you did. At least around here it is. The best I can hope for is someone else learns a system and runs it at a convention. I might eventually end up others here and just retire from gaming altogether.
      In the back of my mind, I can't help but wonder if someone did take over the project if anyone would even care at this point. Yeah, you might have it, but would you ever run it? I know my group's soured and will now only do Paizo adventures because they're guaranteed to be finished by a certain date.

    28. Mirko Hess on

      Well Pathfinder is a nice system but it suffers under the same problems 3E and 3.5 suffered under - too many rules. Too many options. Slow, static combat that with all the maneuvers and stuff feels like 80s wargaming from time to time. Every new hybrid class unbalances the game more and more. It´s just the way things go with systems. Pathfinder had it´s time and will be played by many for years to come but many more will leave it for fresher, less complicated and faster systems. It´s past its heyday. Imo has to do with the fact that the next gamer generation is around the corner. Long time gamers who started with AD&D 2nd or even D&D 3E are getting older and dropping out. New blood needs to be injected. Try bringing in a new player (new to roleplaying or even new to Pathfinder) into a already playing Pathfinder group and see how it goes. Very, very difficult. Bring in a new player in a already playing D&D 5 or Fantasy Age group and see how that goes. Whole different story.
      I share your feeling about physical copies to some extent but what can I say? I´m a dinosaur that way, a hard-copy-man. For gaming purposes I always owe the pdfs but my library hungers for books too and I can´t put pdfs in the shelfs ^^. So, there you have it. Guess everybody has his own ticks, eh?!
      As for McBride, sure, I share the feeling. But let´s be honest: the guy had chance after chance after chance to do the right thing and prove that he´s a decent sort. Blew em all. He´s a lying, cowardly fraud and he won´t do it. You know it, I know it and everybody with half a brain knows it by now.

    29. Derek Blakely on

      I still do Pathfinder, but it leaves a sour taste in my mouth as of late. Not because of this project, but just the system in general. I long to try out 5e and personally have zero interest in Starfinder.
      I feel bad for everyone who paid for physical copies. I've been burned too often by buying those so I stopped a long time ago. Too often they got crapped out only to be immediately errata'd within 24 hours of their release. Fewer things aggravate me more than arguing with a player who has a book copy and my pdf has the true write-up.

      Part of me just wishes Gary would forfeit the rights to another company and let them finish it.

    30. Mirko Hess on

      No surprise there. Half of the people who put money into this trainwreck probably have left Pathfinder as a system by now.
      Anyway....we won´t get an update. Everybody knows by now that this is true. Something will be put out in around 6 months. It will be a stitched together piece of crap. No apology is going to come with it. It will be pdf. People who paid for physical product will be fucked. People who paid for physical product for ToN AND WotW will be fucked even more. The end.

    31. Derek Blakely on

      It's interesting. I happened upon the Facebook page for FMG again today. The last time I'd been there was September 2016. There's been a couple of posts from unhappy people from here on there since then. The best was the joking comment from David saying "I think I just found a new dungeon. The Lost Tomb Of The Throne Of Night."

      It's insane to think that it's been since June 2013 since that page was last update, and October 2015 since we got an update.

      I honestly wish that Gary would update us and not just support other projects. I saw he gave money to support a comedy AP for Starfinder as well as Cthulhu and 5e adventures. I think he's long since given up on Pathfinder as a system.

    32. Derek Blakely on

      I was thinking more "Americans". Those of us who live outside the country can't sue, as per the terms of KS.

    33. Mirko Hess on

      "Certain people"? Right.......namely those people that sue his worthless ass before court. The rest who can´t or won´t will get the finger.

    34. Derek Blakely on

      Mine was "only" $93, but being Canadian and the the dollar sucking at the time, it was significantly more. We probably have to wait until next year for that, and even then only certain people might see any kind of return.
      I randomly reached out to Gary again, but never got anything back. Doubting I even got through.

    35. William S. on

      I would really love something for my 150 bucks or you know that money back.

    36. Derek Blakely on

      You're likely not wrong. I'm just hoping for something, regardless.
      I'm starting to feel burnout from writing, but mine's mainly due to low ratings and reviews. At least his is still selling and being praised. Could have the adverse affect I suppose. Too concerned with rocking an amazing project that can top the previous one.

    37. Mirko Hess on

      He´ll puke some half-baked shit out around Jan/Feb/March 2018 mark my words

    38. Derek Blakely on

      Not even a blip. Guess at this point he's probably forgotten all about this.

    39. Derek Blakely on

      For me it wasn't so much a question of the quality, but rather the year. Being 2017 and still seeing the first two books in the Top 10 blew my mind.

    40. Mirko Hess on

      The quality of Way of the Wicked was never in question really though I DO think that it get too much praise. It´s a good AP, don´t take me wrong, but hardly as faultless as some paint it. The first two books really shine after that it does need quite a bit of work and polishing. It´s on par with paizo´s APs though and that says a lot.
      What is very much in question is McBrides behavior as a businessman and - as far as I´m concerned - a responsible adult. If I hadn´t been part of this fuckfest he calls a kickstarter campaign (and frankly would now puke at the thought of giving him any money) I still might buy his work when it´s done (or WotW).

    41. Derek Blakely on

      Don't know if anyone gets the Paizo newsletter or not, but Way of the Wicked has been fiercely clawing its way back up the Top 10 3pp books for the past few months. Mainly just the first two, but still.

    42. Derek Blakely on

      I would be okay with that. I know of at least one other person brought it up in passing that I should be the new CEO, but keep Gary on as the janitor and have him work his way back up.
      Got three projects on the go at the moment. They're about 99% complete. Just waiting to hear back on whether I need to make any revisions or not. One is a magic item supplement, and two are adventures. See how those go.
      I also got my first 5-star review from End. He enjoyed my "final boss" character I did for a villain supplement that never actually got off the ground. It's in the new Pathways free magazine that came out, if anyone is interested. It's called The Red King.

    43. David Taylor on

      So...still no word from "Could've Died" McBride? Typical. So when the inevitable lawsuit begins who else thinks the entirety of the rights to Fire Mountain Games should be awarded to Derek? He's certainly done more for this project than McBride ever did.

    44. Missing avatar

      Guild on

      Ever heard of Karma Gary?

    45. Derek Blakely on

      So 192 projects backed, but no communication? That's bad form, Gary. Thanks to the KS notifications, I get an email every time you support something. I'm not saying you shouldn't, but at this point you should be saving every penny and completing your own project. Not only that, but there's blood in the water, the sharks are circling, and you may need that for lawyer fees come June 2018. Need you to please think hard on that.

    46. Derek Blakely on

      It is, but that's their policy. The most they can do tell you that they'll send the person an email saying "hey, you should finish your project." I'm sure they do, but if our emails aren't getting through then guaranteed theirs aren't either.

    47. Newton Philis on

      That seems very irresponsible of Kickstarter...
      In the very least, you'd think they would 'ban' him from their site, or restrict his account.
      It is a bit of a slap in our faces to see him take our money and then back other projects...

    48. Derek Blakely on

      We have to wait the year, then we can contact lawyers and see what can be done. Unfortunately, the legalities are very specific that KS doesn't interfere, they can't be held liable even remotely, and cases are supposed to happen in New York. It's possible that a lawyer you talk to has heard of loopholes that can be used in your favour. However, the biggest kicker is you apparently have to be American. No justice for the rest of us, it would seem.

    49. Newton Philis on

      Is there anything we (the defendants) have to do to get the ball rolling on Legal action? Or is that initiated by Kickstarter automatically after 5 years?

    50. Derek Blakely on

      If he gave up on writing the other four + extra scenario, and just condensed it into "three books", I'd be alright with it at this point. Just so long as everything he gave us in the cliff notes was still there and none of it removed. Maybe it's fast progression now instead of medium. I'd be fine with that at this point. Other people? No clue. And I wouldn't want to speak on their behave either. Given what I've invested in comparison to others, it's enough.

Show older comments