Use this space to cheer the creator along, and talk to your fellow backers.
Have a question?
Yeah, besides what I converted and uploaded to my original blog and the forum, or ideas shared for 2e, 3e, and 3.5, I’m tapped for additional ideas. I even copied and pasted the summaries from here to the forum so people could make an attempt. I just wish everyone the best with what they end up doing.
Yeah. As a project I think Throne of night has flopped even of three more books materialized next month. I think the challenges of balancing the two party types, the campaign system and the setting make this a step too far.
I wonder if Michael Clarke could be persuaded to release digital copies of the artwork and the maps. Some are on his website but at lower resolution. I find it hard to find decent underdark maps and I was really happy with what I’d seen so far.
It looks like my plan of folding this into a Rage of Demons campaign is my best bet of getting some use out of it.
I’d want my money back. I’d think most of us would want that at this point. A lot of us have left a Pathfinder so this AP wouldn’t do a whole lot. Not to mention many people have stated that the project has left a sour taste in their mouths and turned them off the AP. That they wouldn’t be able to get around that feeling to comfortably run it without feeling bitter.
I‘d certsinly like my money back – especially the money for the printed WotW books this crook never supplied. But I‘m not naive enough to believe he‘ll pay back even one cent. Nic Logue had serious problems at that time but the moment he cpuld he got back to his backers and showed himself a man of honor and integrity. I very much doubt McBridge does even know how to spell these words.
At least I‘d expect everything in existence to be turned over to someone ready and able to finish the task or – in case no one will – to every backer.
Apart from that at this point I‘ll go with whatever punishment frauds suffer in the US. It won‘t get me my money back but it sure as hell will at least give me some satisfaction.
Just of of interest. What kind of remedies would people be looking for in court cases? Refund of money paid? Inventory of spending? Work completed so far? I’ve never seen a kickstarter where the originator just went awol for so long.
I know Nic Logue of Razor Coast fame (lovely guy by the way, I did his online adventure writing course) went quiet for a bit but made good By refunding the monies and turning all his work so far over to Lou Agresta to complete and publish.
I guess it will be nice to have some outside agency/force/higher power to look at this and say. McBride... bad... bad! No! Presumably McBride could just file bankruptcy and avoid paying any dues back. I’m not sure where the law stands in such things? I doubt any kind of moral compulsion would have any impact on the man.
Either Gary fulfills his end of the deal or everyone here has the opportunity to take him to court.
Remind me what happens in *less than a month*?
Just less than a month.
Was just thinking how cruel an April Fools joke it’d be to announce Throne coming out today. Glad that didn’t happen.
A little over one more month to go.
Is there talks of Gary? I was hoping to check them out, but couldn’t find any newer ones.
As does the fact that we talk about Gary McBride.
Just over a month left. 🧐 People on the forums are stilling hoping for this. Still wanting Gary to make a comeback. Looking for a revised compilation of Way of the Wicked in a single volume with corrections. Wanting the “20 years later” sequel he wanted to do, that’d probably be along the lines of Paizo’s “Ruins of Azlant” now, where Talingarde’s evil rule spreads to uncharted lands to subsist and conquer.
I want all that too. I’d even support it, but only after I knew it was a 100% guarantee. PF 2.0 makes that an unlikely pipe dream though. As does people going to 5e.
@James — Hopefully it does. I’d love to see some semblance of the rest of the AP released.
I just filed a complaint with the ftc about fire mountain games (aka Gary Mcbride). Hope this helps.
I hope it lights a fire under his butt. I know myself, I had a couple of books and even an adventure or two I wanted to do, but the edition change makes it difficult to actually want to go through with it. “What’s the point?” keeps popping in my head. I do agree that the idea of 2e is very polarizing. The forums are nothing but flame wars. The mods are having so many troubles with having to remove whole sections of it and telling people to play nice.
Ahh, sorry I wasn’t being very clear. I meant that if the pf1 rule system is going to change and it does sound like they will borrow some ideas from 5e (levelling spells, proficiency) then some people will think “if I’ve got to change anyway, might as well change to 5e’. Certainly not all, but some.
Either way an edition change is probably worst thing that could happen for this Kickstarter. Or the best if it inspires Gary to pull his finger out and get some stuff released.
Robert — 2e won’t be 5e. While it will be streamlined, they’re taking rules from the Unchained book (3 actions per turn), combining three different systems for skills, and apparently initiative will be based on whatever skill you were last doing (Perception, Stealth, or even Swim). It’s also a playtest so there’ll be a year of people telling Paizo what to chance and enhance. It’s already getting playtested at specific cons right now. It’s not sounding like my cup of tea, but then I’ll be making sure to quote my two cents come playtest day.
That is very true, good catch. I always forget that Rise of the Runelords came out almost a year before the rpg was released.
If I’m honest, I think the announcement will cause a lot of people to make the switch to 5e. If Pathfinder is going to streamline like 5e and reprint earlier book equivalents then why not go the whole hog and make the switch to the original makers of the system.
It doesn’t bode well for the TON module ever being released, it has been too long and even if released in entirety within 6 months it will effectively be obsolete a month after publishing.
Give me unannotated maps and artwork please and I’ll call it a day.
I’ve decided to forge ahead and run my underdark campaign taking some of the concepts and ideas of the overlord campaign and folding in elements of rise of the drow and Out of the Abyss. Should be fun.
Ironically if you take the magic item crafting out of Paizo’s Kingdom building rules they translate into 5e almost perfectly. Only thing that’s a bit sticky is mass combat rules, which weren’t brilliant anyway.
@Robert — I see a typo. You say 12, but I know you meant 10, seeing as how it came out in 2008. Lots of people transitioned to 5e from Pathfinder, but with today’s announcement of 2e, I’m curious to see if anyone comes back.
If I’m honest Derek, despite playing Pathfinder for 12 years or so our group of old time gamers have ditched Pathfinders completely, my dozens of hardcovers and APs have been ebay’d and we have fully and irrevocably switched to 5e.
The main clincher for me was trying to bring three new players into the game and effectively taking 5 hours or so to design characters - with them still not really getting it at the end. We did the first three books of Shattered Star and then switched to 5e. It has a very good AD&D feel about it, very easy to DM with some very elegant mechanics like inspiration, death saves, short rests, spells known etc that make it far more enjoyable to both DM and play.
I suspect even if this campaign does come out sometime after May there won’t be that many people still playing Pathfinder regularly to make use of it.
@Robert -- Okay, I know that one. Had to look it up, but I recognized it the second I saw the cover. I don't know anything about it other than Drizzt, Demogorgon, and stuff. I don't know much about 5e in general since practically no one here plays it or owns any books. I can probably count on one hand the number of people that know the system. My knowledge is solely based on Acquisitions Incorporated and Critical Role.
@JHewett. That’s for that, I did see Rise of the Drow and am interested. However one thing in particular that attracted me to this campaign was the idea of having a party of evil drow with as compelling a unifying factor as in way of the wicked.
@Derek. Rage of Demons is the campaign I’m very much thinking of running that I have put off waiting for this one for similar reasons to not playing rise of the drow.
I may end up just cobbling together some parts of all three. Hence me being particularly interested in locations, maps and NPCs
@Robert -- I feel ya. Just having something would be better than nothing at this point. Part of me can't help but feel a little played knowing that my desperation for completion is evident.
Were there other underdark campaigns? I've seen lots of one-shots and a few modules that go for a number of levels, but only one AP.
@JHewett -- That's a campaign I too supported for Pathfinder. Because of that I too got the email saying that they were doing a 5e update. Back when the PF version was coming out, I also advertised it to everyone looking for Throne to come out. At the very least I suggested the original release which was a 3-part module mini-path.
I don't usually do this because it is bad form, but given the lack of communication from the creator of this project, well, there are always exceptions!
Adventure a week is doing a 5E version of their underdark campaign Rise of the Drow on Kickstarter this year. They previously did a PF version, but are now updating it to 5E and including both the Prologue and Epilogue in one massive hardcover tome.
I have the original PF version and will be backing the 5e one once it launches. These guys put out great material (Just search for reviews for Rise of the Drow) and the physical quality of their products is excellent. Just a head up if you need something to scratch that underdark itch.
I for one would prefer the campaign in 5e but can do the conversion myself.
What I want as a bare minimum is the artwork and the notes. Maps, location descriptions, NPCs, plot ideas. These are the things Gary does best.
I’m not even that fussed about getting a printed product, pdf will do. Now I know we have a right to expect more based on how much we paid. More than anything else I just want to see the potential of the first two books realised.
I can’t believe I’ve avoided underdark campaigns for the last 5 years because I didn’t want to preempt this one. I hope my optimism is justified.
Gary, I know you’ve been backing an epic number of products, some of which didn’t go through in the end. A vast majority of these are Cthulhu based or even 5e. Going by the dwarf/drow books, that makes a lick of sense. If you were to finish off this project in 5e, I don’t think that many people would be upset. They’d just want it completed. We can convert it ourselves if need be.
Just wanting there to be words said. Don’t want you thinking everyone gave up on this project or that you’re not being held accountable.
That’s disappointing, but hopefully something still comes of it.
Hmmm... just got a generic response from FTC with a link to avoiding consumer fraud. Not particularly helpful.
I have added my complaint to the FTC. I hope this helps.
Thankyou @Chris Mizanin. I cant help as an international backer, but I appreciate you doing this.
Update on FTC reporting. You can file a complaint via their website (I just did). It's really easy to do. Please take the time to do this so we can get the process started. The fact that Gary is still active on Kickstarter, but refuses to communicate with the people that supported him is insulting. Please help us move toward getting some amount of justice.
Kevin - I appreciate the info and phone number for the FTC.
Can you tell us, when we call, what info do we give them? I don't want to be unprepared for their questions. Thank you.
Same here. So I guess we just have to hope enough US backers raise hell with FTC.
I’m not in the US either so I’m not able to either.
Thanks for the additional info guys...at least Michael got paid for his work.
Pity I am not in the US or I would use those references and make a phone call to the FTC too.
I pasted this on the forum. Hope you're okay with that, Kēvin.
@JHewett - Michael has said that the majority of the funds went to him to pay for all the art we’ve seen and haven’t seen. The rest went to Gary. I’m not sure on the specifics, but the way Michael talked it sounded like a 70/30 split. And yeah, despite 40+ people all reporting Gary and all of us using the same reference numbers, and bringing up others or pointing out the projects, KS only sent out copy & paste responses. Their response to our threatening to never use them again was essentially a “Bye, Felicia.” The website has been down for a little over a year. I posted links on the Paizo forum for this KS.
@Kevin - Thanks for the info. Could you share this on the forum?
Also the number is 877-382-4357
I filed a complaint with the FTC today; you if think it's futile I'd point you to what happened with the Doom that Came to Atlantic City kickstarter: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2015/06/11/the-ftcs-first-crowdfunding-enforcement-is-over-a-failed-board-game-on-kickstarter/… . The FTC agent that I talked to stated that the more of us that call in about the project, the more likely they are to launch an investigation. For reference my case number is #91801780. I'm guessing you can tell them these cases are for the same incident. The timeline for the FTC to take action is much more flexibile; there is no need to wait until May. My phonecall with the feds took 5 minutes and I wasn't on hold at all this morning; if this project was worth the 120 to you, I hope you'll consider 10-15 minutes of your time worth making sure this sort of thing is addressed appropriately.
Anyone else notice that the Firemountain Games Website is a dead link now?
Isn't it wonderful how many projects Gary has backed himself?
Now I can't be 100% sure that funds from this KS were used to back projects for himself, but it does seem highly suspicious and definitely unethical.
I wonder how he would feel if one of the projects he backed did the same thing to him? Probably would care as it is our money he is spending in all likelihood.
And kickstarter continues to operate under their 'hands off' policy...the least they could do would be to cancel his account...I'm sure this project has been reported enough time to justify it.
Happy New Year everyone.
Gary, you still have four months and one week left (May 7th). Have the project do right by you.
Just wanted to say Merry Christmas to everyone, and hope 2018 does everybody right.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Good one.......
In all probability, but it won’t be with this Kickstarter...
Wonder if we’ll see any Christmas miracles this year.
Hey, Gary. I got 4/5 stars on my instalment of an AP. It was Book 6 of 6. The only reason it didn’t get higher was because of some editing and layout issues. Now can I help in the completion of THIS AP?
The forum thread regarding this book series was recently re-risen from the grave through necromancy. Been pretty lively these past few days. It’s been kind of nice.
Kickstarter won’t do a thing. It’s in their terms of agreement. You can complain, and they’ll nicely prod the creators to remind them of their duties, but other than that they’re not responsible for anything else. They urge you to try be civil and contact the creators to negotiate terms and ask questions. They can’t be sued, as per their terms, but after 5 years you can take a creator to court if they haven’t made good on their end.