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A turn-based RPG with branching dialogue, shelter management, and survival mechanics set in the zombie apocalypse.
10,096 backers pledged $332,635 to help bring this project to life.

DRM-Free and Steam Copies

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This is important, so please read this if you do not want your copy of Dead State activated on Steam. The Early Access demo will activate on Steam and eventually become the full game, which for many backers, will be how the full game is delivered. Read carefully – everyone will get a Steam copy UNLESS you specify you don’t want a Steam copy.

The Early Access demo will ONLY be available through Steam. I’ll explain why at the end of this.

However, if you want a non-Steam version of the game, you will need to contact us here on Kickstarter. There are no current plans for the First Seven Days demo to be released separately from the Steam copy. If you backed us at the USB or box levels, you’re already getting a physical copy of the game without DRM and the Steam digital copy, so you’re covered either way.

I know there are many arguments about DRM and Steam, but here’s why we are distributing the Early Access demo through Steam.

-Aside from activation on Steam, there is NO DRM added to Dead State– if you have it installed on Steam, that’s it and there is no further authentication.

-Steam is the largest PC distribution platform in the world – most of our backers already have it installed or have asked us to release the game on Steam.

-Releasing on Steam saves us money on hosting the game privately, which is money we can use on production and that’s a pretty big factor for us.

-Steam activation is instant and we don’t have to worry about server overload or technical issues on our end.

-Backers who bought physical rewards such as the USB or box will be receiving copies of the game on physical media.

-We will most likely be releasing any expanded content we release on Steam first.

-Valve has made it clear that should anything ever happen to Steam, your copies will still be playable – at least, we guarantee we will make Dead State available should anything happen to Steam, barring any kind of robo-apocalypse where our machine masters forbid it.

“DRM” and “Steam” are trigger words for a large amount of PC gamers, but before you get outraged, note that we WILL have an option to download the full game (without the Early Access demo) eventually, but that Steam is going to be the fastest way to get your hands on the game. I highly advise anyone who is worried about Steam activation to read up on the latest information on the service. I have probably lost more physical media over the years and personally use Steam for most of my collection. We have not signed any agreements with any other distribution services yet, so please don’t ask us if we can activate your copy on another service – we don’t have that information yet and we won’t know until closer to release.

To recap: IF YOU DO NOT WANT A STEAM COPY, MESSAGE US HERE ON KS (Send a message for our records, don’t post in comments). Please get back to us as soon as possible.

IF YOU WANT A STEAM COPY, DO NOTHING – WE WILL SEND YOU A CODE WHEN THE DEMO IS OUT. If you have any additional questions about this, feel free to ask us in the comments or send us a message.

We’re working on progression testing and tracking down the last of our save/load and crash bugs. Every time we find a new showstopper, we need to fix it, create a new build, and start testing over again to make sure no other issues have been created. It’s a bit time-consuming given the demo’s length. Once we have a demo build with no major issues, we will create a Steam build of the game and upload it. We’re aiming for Wednesday, but there could be delays if testing shows any new issues. Thanks for your patience, everyone – we really appreciate it.

Zeke Virant, lehmann, and 47 more people like this update.

Comments

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    1. British on

      @fakum12: Regarding the beta access, that's precisely why projects should be upfront about what they will do about Steam and DRM-free versions/access (as "Name Witheld By Request" and others have noted).
      It's too easy (and quite lame) to give no detail whatsoever and come up with a decision, months after the project is backed, that could have had an impact on a chunk of the backers (I'm talking in general here, not specifically about Dead State, even though bits do apply).

    2. Missing avatar

      fakum12 on

      @Marcus Djonlija
      "demo is DRM-free and Steam is equivalent to logging into Humble Store or any other website."

      Exactly that is not the case. The Steam framework is foremost a DRM framework and only second a distribution network (even most users might think it's the other way round). You don't just log on, you have to install it first.

      @AstralWanderer
      Exactly my thoughts, but I disagree with the beta access. It wasn't included in any backer tier so providing a early access beta is just a "nice to have" thing where they can do whatever they like.

    3. Missing avatar

      Kyle on

      It is disappointing that the demo is only available on Steam, so I won't be having anything to do with it. Steam = DRM, and my PC is "Steam Free". Guess I'll wait to play until the full game, and my Steam Free/DRM Free copy.

      It would be nice if Kickstarted games were more upfront about their plans to involve Steam and it's DRM. There's a big chunk of Kickstarter money that is there because of the DRM free aspect of backing these games. At least in this case I'm only missing out on the demo, not on the full game.

    4. Missing avatar

      AstralWanderer on

      I'm in agreement with you on other DRM systems too British but just wanted to comment on Steam. Given you mention UPlay, their UK subscribers recently had DRM-related problems http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/01/24/bt-infinity-blocks-ubisofts-uplay-or-vice-versa/#more-186319

      Another concern with Steam is security - their protocol and client have vulnerabilities http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/10/17/steam_revuln_analysis/ and Valve have yet to disclose full details of their database compromise of 2011 http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/11/valve-confirms-steam-hack-credit-cards-personal-info-may-be-stolen/ aside from a 2012 update http://store.steampowered.com/news/7323/ - this suggests either that Valve don't know what happened (2½ years after the event) or that it was so serious they daren't publicise it. Since the Steam Client Service *is* a Windows service, it has permissions to do almost anything including disabling security software - so anyone hijacking Valve's infrastructure has control over every (online) user's system.

    5. British on

      AstralWanderer is spot on... except that *my* take on the matter is that I boycott everything that is somehow related to Steam (and Origin, and UPlay), by principle: any framework that convey DRM stuff is out for me.
      /waiting for release

    6. Missing avatar

      AstralWanderer on

      @Stephen "Stoibs" D: "I wonder how all you people unwilling to adapt plan to go forth and continue playing PC games in the future when mandatory Steamworks integration is becoming quite the norm for games...?"
      I've boycotted every game to date that used Steamworks (Napoleon Total War, Civ V, etc) and will continue doing so. It is my intention to support only publishers that respect their customers enough not to force an problematic DRM system with increasingly objectionable Terms of Service, which is why I backed this and other KS projects. Rather than portraying us as "dinosaurs" perhaps you would be better served considering how you would cope in the event of your Steam account being disabled as with http://consumerist.com/2011/03/valve-disables-steam-account-wont-explain-why.html to give just one of many thousands of examples?
      DoubleBear's decision to limit their beta to Steam users is an annoyance (and one I will remember for any of their future ventures) but as long as the final release is DRM-free, I don't consider this a betrayal or catastrophe.

    7. Missing avatar

      Marcus Djonlija on

      "Steam is as much DRM as for example Starforce"

      Can a game on Steam be restricted in a way as to make it the same as Starforce or any other DRM for that matter? Yes. Is what DoubleBear proposing with the demo anything like that? No. So long as the downloaded game folder can be copied to another location, or another computer, and run without Steam or any other account information; then this is by all means a "reasonable definition" of DRM-free.

      Steam merely becomes the method in which DoubleBear ensures that you have a right to download their software. The same way your Humble Store account ensures you have the right to download your library of DRM-free games. The only difference is one is a program and the other a website.

      To those that argue this verification of your right to download a game, is in itself DRM, is what I would call the "unreasonable definition". Because what you are saying is that DoubleBear (or any game developer) should provide a link on their website using no account verification and trust only those who paid for their game download it (IRL their servers would be down quicker that a ddos from anonymous). I don't think anyone here could say that this is a reasonable proposition.

      This whole debate should have nothing to do with DRM and only with the choice of using Steam to distribute the DRM-free demo. Sure, I would have preferred if DoubleBear used a similar method as Starbound; where steam keys are distributed using the Humble Store, with the promise of "milestone" builds being added to the Humble Library so they can be downloaded without Steam. Steam makes it easier for the developers to push out updates quickly while adding new features and fixing bugs (though I'm not sure this is the intended purpose of the demo for Dead State).

      tl;dr demo is DRM-free and Steam is equivalent to logging into Humble Store or any other website.

      Just my thoughts on the topic :)

    8. Missing avatar

      fakum12 on

      @CSDare What you fail to realize is that Steam is as much DRM as for example Starforce.
      And this mythical 99.something% figure is based on those who actually read the updated and responded. I would be surprised if half of the backer even read the update.

    9. Stephen "Stoibs" D
      Superbacker
      on

      @JasonZ
      'Direct Sales' are a bit ambiguous too however, and you’re mistakenly attributing them automatically as non-steam sales and as ‘drm-free’ copies sold.
      Keep in mind that plenty of Indie devs supply Steam keys from their website direct sales.
      I personally also bought Defenders quest, Defenders Quest 2 Pre-order, Grimrock, All my Wadget eye games, FTL, Incognita, the upcoming Wayward Manor, Wrack, etc. etc. directly from the page they set up since I like to support Indie devs and prefer them to get the bulk of the cut over Valve - However I only do this on places that promise me a Steam key…
      So while my purchase of Defender’s quest for example wasn’t a ‘direct steam sale’ figure, it certainly would have been had they not offered the steam key option, and Indie devs know this - Noticed the plethora of "Help us get greenlit and receive a Steamkey!" disclaimers on almost every indie bundle these days?

      Speaking of which, whenever a game is greenlit on Steam, the discussion boards and forums always light up with threads of people asking if/when they can get a steam key since they bought the drm-free version of it already at x/y/z, often times even asking if they can get a Steam key from their GoG purchase :P

      Not trying to say it mockingly or as a derogative way, but you guys *are* the vocal minority, GoG is an amazing service -heck I’m one of those first group of people who ‘pre’ set up an account there day one back in ’08 as it launched, with 65 titles on my account to date - But you can’t honestly say it holds a candle to Steam in regards to popularity or financial success. I only used them to get older games from the 90’s again and up and running on modern operating systems - Ever since Steam started doing the same (and even using the same Gog launcher/wrapper for a lot of these) I’ve found myself less and less visiting GoG or bothering with them to be honest.

      Would be interesting to see exact figures released by DoubleBear as to how many chose what platform closer to launch in any case.

      And yes you would think with the amount of popularity and wealth kickstarter are raking in they could give the comments a bit of a facelift in regards to proper editing/deleting/formatting functionality... seen dodgy random sites on the edges of the internet with basic vBulletin implementation :P

    10. Nekator
      Superbacker
      on

      wow.. the hate for steam again ^^.. thinking that i had to fight to get a steam copy of some games here... funny.

    11. CSDare on

      You have to laugh at the people calling this a "DRM fiasco." There is no fiasco. Double Bear promised a video game to backers; that video game will be provided. Double Bear did not promise a demo to backers; the demo is an added benefit. The original -estimated- delivery date was Dec. 2013; as well known by now, original estimated release dates are pushed back when added features are reached due to pledge level. This game hit every single added bonus feature, so naturally the release date would be pushed back. As Double Bear has said right in the comments here, there will be no special DRM features aside from having to download the demo from Steam. As anyone acquainted with the real world of development realizes, hosting/managing/releasing software to tens of thousands of people is expensive, which is why so many indie developers use a provider like Steam to handle that aspect of distribution. And with the rise in "early access" gameplay, it only makes sense for Double Bear to go to Steam to encourage additional interest in their game. It's certainly reasonable to say that it's unfair that non-Steam users may not get access to the demo (once again, a product never mentioned at the point the game was pitched to backers), but it is in no way a "fiasco."

    12. Missing avatar

      JasonZ
      Superbacker
      on

      @Stephen “Stoibs” D Ugh- I meant to say THANKS for the link about the game revenue sales. That's the last time I write a post in the little text box here. Why can't we edit the posts here?

    13. Missing avatar

      JasonZ
      Superbacker
      on

      @Stephen “Stoibs” D

      That’s for the link about game revenue sales. I’m one of the backers here who prefers DRM-free although I use STEAM when forced to. (Bioshock Infinite) The data clearly showed that STEAM is the majority and accounts for the roughly 50~60% of the sales for a typical PC game.

      But the article surprised me in that it actually showed how DRM-free and direct sales are on the rise. That DRM-free can account for as much as 25~45% of the game sales.
      I’ll use “Defender’s Quest” as an example since it was the first link. I bought this game on GOG. If you look at the data it shows that 58.6% of the sales come from STEAM but a total of GOG and Direct Sales came to 32.6% at 93, 486 sales vs 167,917 on STEAM. That great to see for DRM-free supporter as most direct sales are DRM-free unless you want a STEAM key.

      Taken from the article:
      The Rise of GOG

      As for the major portals, GOG's star is clearly rising. Even under direct competition, GOG generated 14.5 percent as much revenue as Steam.

      If Defender's Quest had not also been available on Steam, I suspect GOG revenue would have been even higher. Steam enjoys a captive market of ardent loyalists, but GOG is swiftly becoming an attractive alternative and gaining loyalists of its own, especially in the anti-DRM crowd.

      GOG was overshadowed by Steam, but still a major source of revenue and matched our take from Kongregate Kreds in a fraction of the time. Shortly after launch, GOG embedded the browser demo in the game's news page, driving further sales.

      Even better, Steam and GOG continue to have healthy long tails. A year from now we expect Steam and GOG to account for over 75 percent of Defender's Quest's lifetime revenues, especially if we get to participate in future sales.
      -------
      Although this was one game, this is great news for DRM-free. It shows that more people are embracing DRM-free options in addition to STEAM and it shows that it doesn’t make financial sense for a game company to ignore DRM-free versions of it’s game. I agree that a game company should use what is “mainstream” but the idea of “vocal minority” for DRM-free or alternate versions is becoming closer to 50-50 with STEAM which each passing year. STEAM has a very large head-start in the business. The data shows that DRM-free and STEAM should both be supported.

    14. J.R. Riedel on

      They should have shared this here as well, but this is a post they made to steam -
      http://steamcommunity.com/games/239840/announcements/detail/1874924913018078640
      Whether or not it will go live in 2 hours as planned, I don't know, but I wanted to share the info.

      Also the game manual is available
      http://www.deadstate.doublebearproductions.com/demo/manual.pdf

      I will cross post this to the comment section as well.

    15. Stephen "Stoibs" D
      Superbacker
      on

      Just popped in to see what the latest was on our keys since this apparently goes live on Steam in a couple of hours.
      Wow.
      Can't believe people are *still* bitching about this.

      Doesn't surprise me in the least bit that 99-point~whatever percent of people are fine with or prefer Steam keys.

      You see the same story with the handful of indie devs that publicly release sales figures

      (http://www.pixelprospector.com/the-big-list-of-game-revenue-sales/); the overwhelming majority naturally come from Steam, people like and want to use Steam, most recent reports state there being over 75 million active Steam accounts as of January. When Consortium launched last month they actually underestimated how many people would want a Steam version and ran out of keys (update #38 (kind of a crappy situation for us backers too, when non-backers were able to buy it freely..)) and that only had a little over 3000 backers compared to this one with 10k.

      Makes perfect sense to use the mainstream, 'standard' platform that the majority are perfectly fine with and let these *vocal minority* opt out for their Drm-free versions, rather than the other way around. It is what it is, and the figures speak for themselves. I wonder how all you people unwilling to adapt plan to go forth and continue playing PC games in the future when mandatory Steamworks integration is becoming quite the norm for games...?

    16. Missing avatar

      Cane on

      Between the anti-drm fiasco and the delays I have to say whatever faith I had in this company is gone, thank god I was skeptic from the start and went for one of the low tiers

    17. ThomasN on

      I was writing a lengthy post about 99.5% and where do you think this number comes from but I deleted it.
      Instead I can just state that I have lost all trust in your studio. I just wish some 2000$ anti-DRM backer comes back from his holiday the day the game comes out, finds his steamkey in his inbox with the note that he will not get another version, and, figurative spoken, nails your ass to the wall.
      Good day.

    18. Daniel M
      Superbacker
      on

      @vagabond If you do not say anything, you will get two Steam keys. Message Doublebear and tell them if you want one or both of your copies to not be steam.

    19. Martin O
      Superbacker
      on

      @Marco Montemaggi: I looked in Kingdom Come too and it looks like a great game. I also liked the games part of the team worked on, e.g. Mafia and Mafia 2 (although they shouldn't have named it Mafia 2). I really want to support their campaign and I've also messaged them because at the beginning they didn't state anything about a DRM-free version.

      Too bad, no DRM-free version is a no-go for me. I won't support DRM (anymore) by buying such games.
      I hope they change their mind in the next 9 days (problem is they have an outside investor which maybe won't allow it).

    20. Marco Montemaggi on

      As an example, the "Kingdom Come: Deliverance" kickstarter is very clear about Steam so i contacted the developers to suggest other distribution platform (GOG) and they told me they were looking for it. I wished them to get "extra"funded (as they're doing) but didn't pledge.
      This is as everyybody should do when launching a kickstarter campaign.

    21. Missing avatar

      fakum12 on

      @JasonZ:
      I think the main reason for the uproar is that "DRM-free" was advertised as a feature. And there are many people out there who see that as a big reason to support a game. To show that a game can sell good even without DRM (as opposed to what the big developer try to make everyone believe). And of course they are upset when this advertised feature, which was a reason to invest money, looks like going to be scraped for something not desirable.

    22. Missing avatar

      Vagabond on

      Could someone tell me about 30$ backers with Ally Pack, please? Will they have 1 Steam version and 1 DRM-free version also, or will they have 2 Steam versions only? Would be appreciated for an answer.

    23. Missing avatar

      JasonZ
      Superbacker
      on

      @Chris J Capel: I agree with @Martin O. It really is a good thing to put this game on STEAM. I believe getting this game on STEAM will actually open other avenues in the future for other distributors like GOG which will bring in more business. STEAM has a lot of benefits but also has a lot of things that concern me too. Typically most gamers have no issues with STEAM like you said.

      I think the reason you see these anti-STEAM crowds come out is because when a game developer typically creates a Kickstarter campaign, they have not been greenlit from STEAM and there is no guarantee that they will be. So they typically promote the game as DRM-free. But when the game is greenlit, the game developers sometimes want to shift in that direction of promoting and finishing development on STEAM. Sometimes the game developers can become aggressive about this towards its backers and make the DRM-free version feel like its less important all of a sudden. Of course this is not an issue if you prefer STEAM and enjoy using it. But if you prefer a DRM-free version of the game, this can become scary as you don’t know if the developer, after delivering the DRM-free version, will continue to support that version or wait long periods between updates compare to STEAM users. I think if more Kickstarters projects start addressing this on day 1, you will see less of these STEAM vs DRM-free debates start up months later.

      My problem is I don’t want the DRM-free version to be neglected in favor of the STEAM version. I know I would feel better if I knew Doublebear Productions was also looking into other distributors like GOG because I get worried that the DLC will only be STEAM.

    24. Martin O
      Superbacker
      on

      @Chris J Capel: It's a good thing they put this game on Steam, the more exposure they get the better.
      The real problem is not that they put the game on Steam and also not that they want to do Early Access on Steam only (which is understandable because it is much easier to manage this way).

      The problem is, that this Steam key for Early Access the backers get will become the full game at the end unless you opt-out actively. They do not state clearly, if you still can get the game in another way later. Many backers wont even read this update in time.

    25. Chris J Capel on

      Can't be bothered to argue anymore, especially as the anti-Steam crowd seem to do this on every Kickstarter page.

      I am very happy with Steam, used it in several countries (including China which is an entirely piracy-based gaming country) without issues and am much happier knowing Dead State is going to be on my Steam list for easy access. Thank you DoubleBear.

      DoubleBear promised the FINAL game to be DRM-free, not the beta/demo, and they're saying right here just tell them if you want a DRM-free version of the demo and they'll supply it without question. I do not see what there is here to argue about. If you're against Steam take the fight or argument elsewhere, since I don't see what else DoubleBear can do to appease you.

    26. DoubleBear Productions Creator on

      To clarify - message us on Kickstarter, not in the comment section here.

    27. DoubleBear Productions Creator on

      Just a note - we're pretty busy right now, so apologies if we don't get back to you right away. If you have a question, look in the comment section or ask the other backers - it's likely been answered. If you're not sure if you want a Steam copy or not, message us here and tell us to hold off for now.

    28. Daniel M
      Superbacker
      on

      @Ruben, you only get one Survey via KS and they already did it.

      @Achim I would send them a message specifying you want one Steam key and one drm free version and see what they say.

    29. Rubén on

      @Double-Bear: Thanks for taking the time to post a response. I must say I'm in fact among that 99.5% that is happy with Steam. But if a product is advertised with "feature A", it must ship with "feature A". It's totally irrelevant that said feature is only used by 0.5% of the clients.

      Now, regarding early-access, I see it as a bonus (thanks btw). So I think it's fair play to say "if you want early access you must then accept you'll get a steam copy".

      And the argument about having to go through thousends of messages... just make a survey like the folks of World of Magic have done. It's 100% integrated with KS and you can then make it a 100% automated process.

      Just my $0.02

    30. alcaray on

      No Lee, that's not what I said. Steam would not let me launch the game. I had no opportunity to troubleshoot any problems (or even to check if there indeed were problems at all). My PC was not that out of date. Have you never gotten a soft to work on a PC that did not meet minimum declared spec? Seriously? You must be either a rich boy or be a really low power user if your first response is to go buy a new pc. Different strokes, I guess.

      Umm about interface design... I've done it for a living. When you put the user first, then you make it foolproof. Bad designs make my head hurt. I did not even bring up "updates crashing my system". Read that part again, is my advice. When your pc is going to go away for a while and you shouldn't touch it till they say ok, then yes, proper standards are that you display a flash screen that says please wait - usually with the Windows standard progress bar so you can get an idea of how much longer it will take. In my experience Steam doesn't even tell you it's going to update for a while. It sends you to a screen with a dashboard at the top that implies that you can carry on with what you are logging in for. At least that was the case the last time I tried loading it.

      Look I just listed the first 3 things about Steam that bugged me. I can come up with 3 more if you didn't like these. The only reason I posted this was because there are so many here saying (like you too, I guess) that if you don't like Steam you are nuts. Makes a guy defensive.

    31. Missing avatar

      Lee Dempsey on

      @alcaray

      So you bought software under the spec and couldn't run it? Your entire argument against Steam is that you keep old hardware well past it's lifespan dates and Steam games do not run on it? Hey, why not try buying new hardware? That's like me complaining that I hate Final Cut and Premiere because the USB connection on a camcorder I have that is 12 years old is no longer supported. Or Laserdiscs won't fit into my Blu-ray player.

      I've been using Steam for nine years and never had an issue with either a game or the client that was Valve's fault since HL3, but then again I update my hardware every few years so it can actually run new software. Don't blame the system when the user is out of date. For someone who claims to have a long history of PC gaming, the pitfalls and user contribution to the experience should not be a surprise. "They don't warn you that your system is going to freeze during updates." Seriously? Have ATI, NVIDIA, Creative, Microsoft, Apple, Asus, MSI, EA, Norton, Adobe etc. etc. ever warned you that an update might crash your system when they release it? If that was a requirement then every software vendor in history would have to state that to cover the eventuality that a system belonging to someone might lock up due to multiple hardware and software configurations. Doublebear should put that warning out right now, just to cover the bases in case someone is trying to run this with 512MB RAM on a Pentium II and Voodoo card.

      Having a (almost) monopoly on PC gaming might be a valid comment. But again, ten years on I have yet to lose access to anything that isn't limited by lack of support from the actual Devs. Again, not a Steam issue, just a matter of general software support never lasting beyond multiple OS releases. And when the vast majority of new games now require internet authorization it doesn't matter if a game is on Steam or not, because if it's Origin, BattleNet, Uplay or even an independent dev when those activation servers go down, so does your game install. And if you don't believe Valve's promise to free your game before that happens then there is no reason to believe anyone else either.

    32. Missing avatar

      Achim on

      I backed the ally pack and would like to have one steam and one non-steam copy. Is that possible?

    33. Missing avatar

      Corey Schaff on

      At least with Steam, Valve is fair and offsets their DRM with decreased costs; there's an understanding there that the inconvenience should be compensated, and that's more than can be said for some other companies, who represent the very worst attitudes and behaviors.

    34. alcaray on

      @turk

      What do you think I'm ignorant of?

      And by the way, for the Shadowrun Returns project, I did spring for the physical copy. HBS decided that it would be too much trouble to put an obsolete (by the time it reached the backers) copy of the game on the disk. So they just didn't. I'm a little leery of believing ksers proclamations about physical copies for this reason. Seems like a risk, now.

      I suspect that the reason was they never sent updates for installed versions of their game, they only sent complete images of the entire updated game. But they never spelled out that this was the case.

    35. Turk
      Superbacker
      on

      As much as i despise DRM, i sincerely believe the rubbish being spouted here is more from ignorance and living in fear than any significant issues. Next time, i suggest you be forced to spend for a physical copy because that is the only real way to get your DRM free ( but guess what you need to be connected to the net for updates.. and who knows what is in the physical media... ah ha.. more worries for you....)

    36. Missing avatar

      AstralWanderer on

      I'm also disappointed to see the beta being Steam-only. Yes, the final version is the most important but it means those who wanted a DRM-free game will be excluded from the beta.
      If KS projects like Xenonauts or Malevolence can provide DRM-free alpha/betas, I struggle to see why DoubleBear can't. If different builds are needed, then the build process should be automated (it needs to be for actual release) and as far as bandwidth costs go, why not use Dropbox or a similar service? Upload a password-protected zip, post that password in a backers-only update and you should be good to go. If 99.5% of backers here are happy with Steam, then bandwidth costs should be minimal.

    37. Missing avatar

      JasonZ
      Superbacker
      on

      @Martin O

      Totally agree on GOG. I love it too and I think it's one of the best things to happen to PC gamers. GOG making old PC games work with modern operating systems is worth the price alone. This post here that suggested STEAM is the best direction has gone smoother than what happen on the Shadowrun Returns Kickstarter. We they told everyone there that STEAM was going to be the primary support and the DLC deal with Microsoft was going to be DRM controlled. A lot of backers lost their minds. The post went over a 1000 comments over the debate of DRM-free vs STEAM. It's actually a very good read for both sides of the argument.

      https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns/posts/449984

      In the end, the developers convince Microsoft to backdown and in addition to STEAM, GOG was added. Everybody was happy. I see no reason why this wont happen here too when the game is near full release. I was surprised to see that only about 56 people out of 10,000 care about DRM-free here. STEAM does have a near-monopoly. I really don't care if the game is beta-tested on STEAM, I just don't want to released DRM-free version to be neglected. I've been watching this game at least 6-months before the developers even considered Kickstarter. I believe I first saw this game advertised in a PC Gamer magazine.

      This was a great article about how GOG took on DRM and Piracy and won:
      http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_UK/Article/GOG-How-An-Indie-Game-Store-Took-On-Piracy-And-Won-021243288934552

    38. Missing avatar

      Tom on

      I dunno I'm not going to whine about steam or sing its praises here, should I still post? :-)

      F that shizz

      I just wanted to say stop posting on Sundays people (and by that I mean devs) Chillax out and take a weekend.

    39. alcaray on

      Another thing that Steam did: I've been gaming on PCs since the first PC clones came out (IBM's PCs were way to expensive, in those days). Over the years I've held on to my PCs to well past their technological life-spans and I've often (but not always) made software run on my rigs that should not be able to support such new software. I've bought things through Steam a few times over the years. More recently, I bought something that my PC did not quite have the specs to support. I figured it was a gamble, but one I was willing to try. So I installed it fine, but when I attempted to launch it, I got an error message from Steam saying that my PC was not compliant and it would not let me run the software!

      Another thing I hate about Steam: their clients are not designed to be user friendly. They do not believe in splash screens or progress bars. They don't warn you that your PC is going to freeze while they update something and that you should not cancel their application if your system says it is not responding. Their client and update system is crap, from a customer service point of view.

      Another thing I hate about Steam: they have a monopoly on an awful lot of otherwise great games. Monopolies are wonderful for the ones selling things. I should not have to point out that monopolies are very bad for consumers.

      I could go on down the list. Note that I never till now used the term DRM.

      Now don't get me wrong: I want DoubleBear to be successful. I don't mind that they are going to sell through Steam. That's business. But I hate being a second-class citizen because I don't like and don't want to promote Steam. Around here I should get nothing but respect and flowery thank yous because I helped you make your game. You're freaking welcome!

    40. DoubleBear Productions Creator on

      @Ruben 99.5% of our backers so far are okay with Steam or have asked for it. It was easier to ask backers to opt-out, otherwise we would have thousands of messages to go through.

    41. Michael Chen on

      Just to clarify; if I understand your update correctly, steam is the fastest way to get the game, but when it's available, we can get the full game outside of steam. Personally, I've been pretty satisfy with Steam's service/platform, however, I would still like to keep the other door (the download without Steam door) to remain open. Can't wait till the game becomes available.

    42. Rubén on

      If you advertise a game as DRM-Free, then Steam should be opt-in, not opt-out.

    43. Daniel M
      Superbacker
      on

      Hopefully they will use GOG for the drm-free version of the game.

    44. Martin O
      Superbacker
      on

      @JasonZ: Well said, I second that.
      Most of the games I own are from GOG and love it! I still use Steam but only rarely (I bought one Steam game in 2013).
      It is important for me that I can play a game without any login or activiation process. If I want to play a game in 5, 10 or 20 years I want to be able to do.

    45. Missing avatar

      JasonZ
      Superbacker
      on

      I'm not a big fan of STEAM either. But I do use it only for games that I can't get through Retail (which some use STEAM anyway) or GOG. I own about 50 games but if a game on STEAM comes out on GOG, I will buy it again. I'll give a few reasons of why I not a big fan of STEAM after my initial comment.

      I'm very concern with the trend I'm seeing in game companies using Kickstarter when boasting DRM-free to get support funding and then nudging backers to use STEAM after they have been greenlighted. DoubleBear Production clearly wants to use STEAM based on this post. Looking back at the Pledge Tiers, DRM-free is mention many times. One of the question on the main page did ask about STEAM and this company said they would love to use it. Going to post 27 is where this game was greenlight. But the developers mention STEAM as a nice alternate but equal treatment to a DRM-free version so backers comments were supportive even from backers who do not use STEAM. In this post, it's clear you are being nudge to use STEAM by the developers and although there will be a DRM-free copy, I now feel that the STEAM version has more weight than a DRM-free version. You are now asked to do addition steps if you don't want a STEAM key but you don't have to do anything if you like having a STEAM key. The develop is actually pleading with you to use the STEAM version. What's worst is that the developer says that you may have to wait a unspecified amount of time before the non-DRM free version is updated. I do get why the developers wants to use STEAM and listed a lot of good business reasons to use STEAM. I just wish more game developers would create post like this one on day 1. (ex. If we get greenlit we are going to primarily use STEAM) I would appreciate that more.

      Why am I'm not a big fan of STEAM? My opinion is that it is a form of DRM. I will say it's the lightest form of DRM. But you still have to log-in to a client to play your games which checks your licenses. You don't have to do that with GOG. And yes, some games can be played without STEAM but downloaded through STEAM. (original X-COM, DOOM, Hexen) But my reasons go a little further than just saying DRM.

      - If STEAM needs to update it's client or that client gets corrupted, you can't play your games. I spent 6 hours one day fixing this issue and probably lost about 14 total hours to it so far.
      - STEAM can accidentally lock you out of your account and your games. It's a very small number compared to millions of users using the service but it does happens.
      - STEAM back in 2012 changed it "Terms of Service" contract with gamers. It CAN also do this at anytime it wants in the future. Why is this a big deal? This was Valves response when a person ask that question if they didn't want to sign the new "Terms of Service":

      Thank you for contacting Steam Support.
      We can permanently deactivate your account for you, remove any stored payment information and clear your Steam games profile.
      Disabling your account will not result in a refund, as explained in the Steam Subscriber Agreement.
      The games in your account will not be accessible for future use. It is impossible to make your games available once your account has been deactivated and your information deleted or archived. Once we have permanently deactivated the account, we will not be able to reactivate the account upon a future request.
      Your games are held hostage if you don't comply with everything STEAM makes you agreed to.
      - STEAM has great sales but why are some games as old as 4 years old 30 and 40 dollars? Because STEAM is the largest distribution service, it can set prices on games which makes good business sense to them but drives me nuts as a consumer.

      GOG makes you log-on to their service, but I'm allow to make a backup of the game file exe for later use so if GOG goes down or out of business, I still have my game and GOG can't take it away from me. I really hope DoubleBear Productions uses GOG in the future.

    46. Entrena on

      Just wanted to say I like Steam, I have all my games there and I like It that way

    47. Joel Connelly on

      Devon Mullane, Steam and GOG are completely different, once you download the game from steam you have to always have the steam client installed/running and logged in if you want to play the game (and only on 1 computer at a time, unless you set a bunch of computers to use your account offline), with GOG you only need log in and download once and never have anything to do with GOG again, you can transfer and install the game onto multiple computers (for my house, the desktop and laptop) and two people can play the game at the same time without having to mess with any settings.

    48. ThomasN on

      And about the bait-and-switch promise to get DRM free (It reads as if you imposed a time limit in this current update): *presses the virtual dislike button*. Because the real one has been eaten by capitalist KS apparently.

    49. ThomasN on

      *IF* you manage to get a hold of a game which does not use DRM (like this game), and manage to collect all the files the game uses and manage to pack it up to a .zip, and then at the same time manage to install and uninstall that spying POS software called steam in a timely fashion just for this game. Yes, my hypothetical brother, yes, then you have achieved the same level of DRM freeness GOG (or HumbleWidged on a developer's site) has. But frankly, fuck that shit when I also can opt out of this.

    50. Missing avatar

      fakum12 on

      Steam is seem as a Software Distribution Platform because it is mainly that. But it implements and relies heavily on DRM. For example if the game is not allowed to be sold in a country it is not downloadable there either - even if you bought the license (and that's all you buy there - a revokeable license) to play at some point (on vacation i.e.). Or if it is subject of a legal battle it can (and will) be removed from your account. This all happened and Valve is not going to change that. GOG removes Games from the Catalog but never from your account.
      Steam games need to be downloaded by via the Steam client and have to be activated over the Internet. GOG games do not need an activation.

      @DoubleBear Productions
      Your game is not DRM free if it relys on a DRM/Software Distribution Platform to be played.