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A brand new Pro & Dark Elf and Orc Fantasy Football team along with converting 17 existing teams from 6 companies to affordable resin.
277 backers pledged $46,000 to help bring this project to life.

Chaos Alliance History

Posted by Impact! Miniatures (Creator)
7 likes

After the message I received this morning I realized there is some information out of the internet that I hopefully need to clarify.   Hopefully this explains things fully and if the feelings of the backers is that there is an issue ... I have no issues pulling the team even if it might hurt the KickStarter a bit.   It is more important to me that Impact! is seen as an honorable company than the money that one team could make for us.   So PLEASE feel free to comment here or message me your thoughts ... as the bottom line here is the right thing is the most important thing for me.   I've spent many hours and many dollars doing everything I can to personally make the fantasy football community as great as it could be ... whether is was spending 5 years working on a rulebook, helping organize tournaments or support them with prizes or just answering questions ... this community means a lot to me and being a company that represents what is good with this game is very important to me.

Okay with that said ... the message I had from the large league order that just pulled accused us of dirty company policies and recasting in regards to the Chaos Alliance team.   In addition, they were upset that I was making the previous limited edition figures worthless.   So I want to be very upfront to address both of those and let the backers give me their thoughts.   If that is the case ... I'll pull the Chaotic Alliance team from the KickStarter and just deliver to the backers that locked in already to get a metal version of the team but mark it sold out and remove the image from the KickStarter.    Like I said ... doing the right thing here is much more important to me than some cash.

The Chaotic Alliance team has at its core figures that were created for the Chaos Cup tournament.    This was a tournament that I have either helped organize or actively supported with tournament prizes and miniatures since the 2nd one was held in Chicago.   To make each event special ... a miniature was given away to represent a famous Chaos fantasy football team.    Some of these figures were limited in their release and some where not ... the theme was the main thing.   So where did the theme come from:

The above is a famous fantasy football team created and painted by Phil Lewis many years.   I purchased this team of Phil Lewis and have been in contact with him many times over the years regarding it.    This team is one of my favorite teams in my collection.   When I purchased the team I received greens from Phil for some of his original sculpts that he did for the team.  These were a great bonus and I talked with Phil and he agreed to give me permission to produce those figures.

Some of the figures in Phil's team were off the shelf figures that anyone could get so those I ignored as they were entirely the property of the company that created them and some patience on Ebay could get you those figures.

However 5 of the figures in Phil's team were conversions.   Half original work and half protected material.   When the decision was made while I was the tournament organizer of the Chaos Cup to every year give out a figure that helped re-create Phil Lewis' team we were left with a problem for those 5 figures as they could not just be cast up.   So I discussed this with Phil and I discussed this with the company employees at the store run by the original IP holder and the decision was agreed to that I would pay to have those 5 figures resculpted but the sculpts would look as similar to Phil's original team as possible to fit in with the theme.  So I paid some talented sculptors to re-create those 5 figures and they were all given to players directly with the approval of the company employees hosting the event.  

If you get a Chaotic Alliance team ... those 5 figures are original sculpts not recasts.   Do parts of them look like other figures ... yes and the reason for that was because we were trying to recapture that famous team and all parties were aware of what was going on.   So based on how the team was created ... I never left that those figures would be considered recasts.  However I realize today that if you do not know the history of the team or my involvement with the Chaos Cup and my direct working with Phil Lewis ... it would be easy to come to that conclusion.   Those 5 figures are inspired by the originals but are not recastings of the originals and again it was done because the goal was to allow someone to play with Phil Lewis' team.

So that is the history and explanation of the history of the team and the 5 sculpts in the team.

On to the 2nd point of the dropped league pledge.   I'm making the previous releases of the limited edition figures worthless.     I realize that people have different definitions of what limited edition means.    For this one ... I need to give you another story.   I was a serious player of Magic the Gathering.   I traveled to attend tournaments ... I actually was able to reach as high as 13th rank in my state at one point.   Good enough to feel good but not brag about.   I actually sold my Magic card collection for $12,000 and used that money to establish Impact! Miniatures (so I was in it from earlier days).   When Revised came out and they reprinted the Dual Lands.  I was not upset.   Everyone of my friends (and myself) thought the black borders of the original limited cards were better to own and we were happy to be able to get the Dual Lands again more easily.   On the internet though I would read about how Wizards was destroying the value of the black bordered cards especially the Dual Lands.   I didn't think this was accurate and after the dust settled it was not accurate.  The black bordered cards were still much more desired and still went for a much higher price their the new releases.

I had the same mindset when I offered the Chaotic Alliance team.    There were a lot of people over the years that have told me they would love to own Phil Lewis' team but because the figures are limited edition metal it was not possible for me to cast up more and add them to our shop for everyone to buy.    With Trollcast, I had the opportunity to bring those figures into a different medium for casting and leave the original metals still limited.  The 25 copies of the metal team in this KickStarter is because that is all that there is of the metal versions of the full team.   We are not casting up 25 more figures of the limited figures ... the offer was from the stock I have left.    Just like the change in Dual Lands ... while I love the Trollcast teams and personally think it is awesome to be able to get an entire 16 players (or more) team for $35 (or less with this KickStarter) in my opinion ... I see pewter as a better material just like the black border cards were better in my opinion.    The pewter teams are just as limited as they were before and they are a better material.   I personally if I was collecting the figures would prefer to get the pewter versions than the ones in Trollcast.   So since the value of a limited figure is to the collectors of the world ... I personally did not believe I was destroying the value of the metal team.    I saw it just like my friends did with the dual lands ... I have a value collectible and now my friends can enjoy a mass produced copy that is not as good as the original but will still be fun for them to own.

That's all the information on the team.   When I offered the team I was truly trying to offer a very fun team for the betterment of the fantasy football community that did not violate any of the rules of miniatures production world.   If I errored on that ... I have no issue at all acknowledging the error and removing the team from the KickStarter.   If I make mistakes ... I explain what happened and I fix them.   I will say one more time ... the honor of my role in the fantasy football company and the reputation of Impact! is much more important to me than a few dollars.

I welcome ANY and ALL feedback ... even the negative kind.    Feel free to message me if you do not feel comfortable responding publically to the udpate.   I hope this update explains everything and if not .. I'll do my best to answer any other questions.

Tom Anders/GalakStarscraper @ Impact!

Matthew Nixon, Peter Johansson, and 5 more people like this update.

Comments

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    1. Adam Souza on

      Keep them in there !!!

      Tom, I've dealt with you over the years, and you've done nothing but support the gaming community.

    2. Orlando_the_Technicoloured
      Superbacker
      on

      Keep the team in there,

      Making Trollcast versions available does not invalidate the metal LE minis, plenty of other LE stuff is also available in an unlimited version (eg different sized artist prints, material, or even just a certificate)

    3. Søren Hagge on

      Decreasing the value of the miniature... now thats a new one. ahh to be 12 again...
      Honestly I wouldnt give a damn if someone wants to go emo over their "precious" being reproduced.
      But TP sums it up quite nicely, couldnt have put it better.

    4. Jason Woodall on

      We also have a league order (still compiling so its not at the full amount yet), and I personally have no issues with what you describe.

      I think you are being honest and fair and hope you do release the Chaos Alliance team as you have described.

    5. Darkson on

      I created 2 of the figures in this team as tournament giveaways. I brought most (if not all) of the rest, either direct from Impact (no Chaos Cup for me) or through trades later.
      Making this team in Trollcast doesn't bother me in the slightest - I didn't buy them as a retirement fund, I bought them to use, so cast them up.

    6. Impact! Miniatures 39-time creator on

      Thanks TP. The discussion is helping ... I think I have an idea that might help.

    7. Missing avatar

      TP on

      Okay, there's two different aspects to this issue.

      1. The Metal Teams
      This one is easy. It is common practice for someone producing limited miniatures to hold back part of the production run for whatever eventual use they see fit. Kev White's eBay auction, prizes for contests, whatever. And as long as these are counted against the total run, they don't change how limited it is.

      If you kept 25 metal teams and now feel this Kickstarter is the time and place to sell them, that is entirely your call and perfectly legitimate. If somebody cancels their pledge due to self-entitled outrage over this lowering the value, you may well be better off without their support. Self-entitled douchebags do not make pleasant customers in the long term.

      2. Trollcast 'em!
      This is trickier because tbh, I don't know how you originally presented the limited nature of the metal team. If there was anything to the effect that they "will never be cast again", that would be a problem. Trollcasts are still casts, after all. So ask yourself, did you make a promise to that effect? If so, by all means pull the team.

      If there was no implicit or explicit promise the sculpts would never see use again, Trollcasts do not compromise the limited nature of the metal casts. Neither would plastic, by the way. Which reminds me, there was surprisingly little backlash to Reaper re-releasing the limited metal Kraken in Bones II. Apparently, there's even people interested in the Bones copy because they don't want to ruin the limited metal piece by subjecting it to their painting skills (which generally fall far short of Marike Reimer's).

      To be sure, Trollcasts WILL reduce the value of the metal teams. Going by the MtG analogy, imagine if there had been no dual lands in Revised Edition. The tournament format still favored decks using them, so the black border versions would've been all the more valueable.

      The MtG analogy isn't entirely accurate though. This being the miniatures world, the availability of Trollcasts would make it easier to field the team without having to touch the metals. More importantly, it would make it easier to field a painted team without painting the metals. And we all know that for most of us (who can't paint like Marike Reimer), painting a metal limited edition is likely to reduce the collector's value.

      In short: someone who painted up a metal team does have what I’d consider legitimate grounds for complaint. You’ll have to make the call if this issue is big enough to stop you, or whether you think you’ll make more people happy by proceeding (which is entirely possible, cf. Reaper Kraken).

    8. Missing avatar

      Joshua Irwin on

      @Impact! Miniatures: That would be great. Thanks.

    9. Impact! Miniatures 39-time creator on

      @Joshua Irwin ... thanks. I'll see what I can do to offer up some balls. Our ball clip rings are really nice and I'll see what I can do pricewise on them.

    10. Missing avatar

      Joshua Irwin on

      My buddy and I made our contribution this morning. We've been watching the goings on with the Kickstarter and decided with the extra Elves that it was a good time. I know we're not alone in this feeling. So even though some bailed I know even more will join to replace them. Keep up the good work.

      P.S. Any chance on balls being added to the KS?

    11. Impact! Miniatures 39-time creator on

      Posted the update to have hopefully a conversation. Had 5 backers drop since the update (which I knew would happen ... it always does ... some people believe where there is smoke there must a fire). However I was REALLY hoping to get at least a private message from those 5 about why they were removing their pledge after getting the information from the update.

      Very difficult to make business decisions in a vacuum.

    12. Missing avatar

      Sebastien Meunier on

      It's amazing how some people can scratch deep just to find problems where there are none ! Isn't all that the proverbial storm in a glass of water ?

    13. Matt McDonough on

      Also that fact that you can have a direct conversion, public or private, with the project creators is one of the main reasons I enjoy backing projects on Kickstarter. Do I do it with all of the project I back, no but it great when I have a question or thought to have that direct communication. Obviously some others don't feel that same way and that is a shame.

    14. Matt McDonough on

      No problem at all with this even before you posted this, I understood the metal to be the limited edition of this team. I also knew you had worked extensively with Phil in the past to acquire the rights to some of his old teams. I like that you are bringing a very rare team to a more affordable and not limited edition version of the team to the masses.

    15. Jason York on

      Even before the update, I understood the metal figures to be a group of limited items that were not going to be redone in the metal based on your previous explanations. I do not feel that making a Trollcast figure(s) of items that may be limited edition in the metal form will hurt the exclusivity of the metal figures. I feel that the people that complain the loudest about things like this are usually only in it for the resellable value of these items and I personally feel that is disappointing. I enjoy the fact that there is an ability to get teams in a cheaper material because I am very new to this game, and want to experience playing this game with a variety of teams and figures without having to break the bank to do so.

      I think the thing that bugs me the most is how some people have decided to "take their ball and go home" without having a discussion about this and make their feelings known before pulling the pledge. Any kickstarter I have pledged into (including this one) has been run by great people that have been very responsive in answering questions by people and addressing concerns that may arise during the campaign. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see this addressed in the comments prior to now. If someone would of mentioned their concern about this earlier, it would of allowed all backers to discuss it properly. Instead, it feels like they decided to receive attention by removing their pledge right as this funded, and I find that action disappointing.....

    16. Kim Goldbaek on

      Hmmm, this is a tricky one... On one hand, I can totally see where you're coming from in regards to the Magic comparison: You've got the limited edition collectable but at the same time, your friends can enjoy the cheaper mass-produced version as well. Both your and your friends needs are met - clearly a win-win situation.

      On the other hand - and this is just an example - if I had pledged for a miniature that was labelled "KickStarter Exclusive", and the manufacurer began producing and selling it to the public some time later, I'd probably feel a bit mislead. Yes, I'd still have the original casting but instead of having 1 of 25 minis on the market, I'd now have 1 of maybe 1000 minis. Even though it had been re-casted using a different material.

      Don't really know how I feel about this... But I do know that no matter what you decide to do, I'm not dropping my pledge or accusing you of dirty company policies - that's just not my style.

    17. Impact! Miniatures 39-time creator on

      @Massimo ... yeah my collection is like that as well. :D (and I also question my sanity)

    18. Impact! Miniatures 39-time creator on

      @Louis Kirkham ... that is my feeling as well. I own an Angel painting that back when I had money (before marriage) ;-) I paid $1000. The artist asked me before I picked it up if they could do the work to be able to sell prints of in the future. I had no issues with that as I wanted others to be able to enjoy it and while the prints sell for around $20 each ... I'm still very happy to own the original.

      I will also tell anyone reading this ... we might lose more backers from this update and I knew that when I typed it. I am hoping that this update gets the information fully out and if someone really thinks there is dirty company tactics still here that they would take the time to either in this comments section or privately let me know why.

      I am trying to make this a great KickStarter ... not something that damages the company.

    19. Massimo Rolli on

      I own all those original models. I bought them on e-bay for as much as 15€ each.
      And I have no issues at all with them being made available. Absolutely.
      I find the concept of them "losing value" disturbing.
      It implies there is people who is actually speculating over miniatures.
      And that does not sound like the toughts of a completely sane mind....
      And this comes from a guy who owns 104 FF teams.

    20. Missing avatar

      Louis Kirkham
      Superbacker
      on

      Thanks for the update Tom. The 'making limited edition models worthless' is an interesting issue. The nearest comparison I can think of based on your information above would be art reproductions. I can buy a copy of Mona Lisa on the cheap but it doesn't affect the value of the original. In many cases reproductions actually increase the value of the original as it seems to become rarer and more valued. Those owners of rare teams should not be worried about trollcast versions. If it is a personal thing, they can still be self-assured that they have a limited edition team...nothing has changed in that fact. If it is a showing off thing, then again anyone knowledgeable will be able to tell the difference between the original and a 'cheap knockoff'.