Use this space to cheer the creator along, and talk to your fellow backers.
Have a question?
My Pleasure sir.
@Gizmo, thank you so much for your kind words and encouragement! With everything that I have had in my life gone and the dream that we all shared being shattered, it has been the most difficult time of my life and your encouragement is really saving my life. Your 2 words brought me to tears. It means a lot to me and I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for sharing the dream together with me and being an amazing backer and a friend throughout our campaign (especially I will never forget your kindness in helping us with your amazing fulfillment/shipping knowledge). I will remember and treasure your kindness for the rest of my life.
@Morganna and our backers, thanks so much again for bearing with us during this extremely difficult times. I know that it's very difficult for everyone as much as it is extremely difficult for us as well. I have been doing a lot of thinking today trying to find what is the best way... as it was a very difficult problem to solve due to the reasons stated below. I guess what I am trying to say is that I am not trying to hide any information, but certain things are very difficult requests for me at this time (which, if anyone has been in a similar litigation before, would know what I mean). What I would like to promise you, and I give you my word, is that when the time is right, ie. completion of the litigation, I will fulfill all your information requests below and clear up everything that you may be wondering, the ones that are too detailed for me to answer at this time, that are outside the boundary of my legal obligations toward our partners. I am posting this on the site and Kickstarter knows this too - I have a strong relationship built with Kickstarter team and it is very important for me to continue this strong relationship with, I will promise them of this as well. As this is my first litigation ever, honestly I do not know how long this will take but please give me some time. If you can give me some time so that I can focus on winning this litigation and let us fight for what we believe in, as soon as this is over, I will make this promise happen. I know that I am asking a lot and would really appreciate your understanding. Meanwhile, please do continue asking any questions that you may have and anything that I am able to answer at this time, I will do so to my best abilities. Thank you so much again everyone.
@Morganna, my apologies if that sounded alerting. The purpose of the post below was to give a quick update on what's happening and why it's been so difficult to be more responsive but I don't think it was written right. That specific line of concern was due to a new learning of how the legal system works here as unlike how corporate laws protect individuals in US, it does not seem to be here. I do regret writing that line as it was more reflection of personal feeling from this but unfortunately I am not able to edit it. It was not professional of me at all, please feel free to ignore it. Regarding paper trails, it's not as easy as just saying and doing, as this is a public space and the details would reveal such as pricing info etc that we have NDAs and contractual obligations to protect the information (related to the case, providing more info publicly can give our opponents unnecessary potential ammo). We had a lot of discussions on the level of details to provide in our update with Kickstarter, advisors, previous owners of failed projects, industry experts among others, and tried our best to provide all that we can to the best of our abilities that aligns with other previously failed projects as well. For any specific questions that you may have, please do let me know and I will try to answer them to the best of my abilities. Thank you so much again.
Endangering your lives? I’m sorry but that statement makes you sound even more unreliable. Considering all your media connections I don’t understand why you haven’t informed them and made this more publicized. It seems you are hiding information. As I’ve said I want a paper trail providing an in depth explanation as to where the funds have been spent. Litigation in Korea has nothing to do with how you spent backer’s money.
By not providing the details requested, the product or a full refund you have opened yourself to further litigation from anyone who invested in this project. As the funds invested and lost were over $10,000 you have opened yourself up to charges of fraud according to US law.
I don’t mean to threaten or sound intimidating I simply want physical proof detailing our money went to where you claim it did. Again litigation is Korea has nothing to do with you not being able to supply said proof so I am confused and suspicious of your refusal to provide such.
@everyone, my sincere apologies for the delays in response. I am currently in Korea, preparing for the start of the battle, which is taking up all my time and energy. The situation is worse than I thought with potentially endangering our lives personally, but I strongly believe that justice will win and we will fight to stand for what we believe in. We are advised not to discuss the details outside especially in a public environment and thus we would appreciate your understanding. Kickstarter is aware of and understands the situation and are giving us full support. As soon as I return home next week, I will process our remaining funds to divide up equally among all our backers and return everything that we have left in our bank to you. My sincere apologies again for the situation.
Jong, thank you for the details. However, I would still like to know few missing details here.
1. You gave an in-depth explanation of what went wrong over the period of past 6 months. Why wasn't this communicated with the backers while this was happening? We understand these things do happen at start-ups but it seems things really started going beyond reach at some point. We would have expected a heads-up on ongoing issues at least around February.
2. The shipping money was sent to you as a part of the pledge. But, you still knew that the shipping cost is a part of what you received. Why wasn't it put separately?
3. We need more insights on the litigation. It would be a huge blow to the faith the backers put in you if a similar product were to suddenly appear in the market from a Korean manufacturer or another pseudo-American company over the next year or so.
@Creator: I'm an engineer. What you described in the prototype is fine - I'll take one of the two prototypes as legal remedy. Please ship it as soon as possible. Thanks.
I'd also note that your "employees" co-mingled "their" recipes with the company, and developed them using machines that were funded by this campaign, so the recipes are indeed property of the people who pledge this campaign. Please ensure each of them gets the recipes sent to them.
Thanks for the rude awakening. Scammers are everywhere, Kickstarter is not immune. I will not repeat this mistake.
Bank has been notifed again. Creditors will be contacting as well. Sincere apologies, but am taking action.
@Josh, actually, Indiegogo Indemand does not work like how you described. Indiegogo Indemand adds numbers on top of what is earned from Kickstarter, thus if you earned $100 from Kickstarter and Indiegogo Indemand says $110, you have earned $10 from Indiegogo Indemand, not $110. I understand that it's somewhat confusing. For us, after Indiegogo Indemand's fees, which is higher than Kickstarter's, we only earned about $11K from the Indemand campaign, but unfortunately, that campaign was a loss for us as we spent $1400 more money on the campaign itself (including marketing and partner fees) than earned. Hope this explains.
Note Hopii also raised an additional $394,723 USD total funds raised (765% funded) from indiegogo.com in addition to the $382K from Kickstarter. They also attempted to raise additional funds on upselling of additional beer kits to backers . So I am adding up $800K burnt since Nov last year. From the posts, it appears brewers mode was one of the biggest incremental cost from the original prototype. Also, in previous posts it sounded like brewers mode was mostly a software upgrade (so shouldn't have been to expensive to develop). This doesn't add up, I am sorry, I feel for you guys. Having a startup fails sucks, but transparency is so important when raising money either to investors or via crowdfunding.
From the original risks and challenges section:
Risks and challenges
HOPii has experienced and professional manufacturing partners lined up, and our prototype is fully functional. Our product engineers and brewing partners are already celebrating with the fantastic end result from our brewing device. We are confident that any backers will receive their device shipped to them on the timeline indicated, and if there are any delays at all in our fulfillment we will be prompt and communicative with you. We already have a handful of varieties available from our beer kits with many more varieties and partner breweries in discussions. Please back us today and receive this new generation brewing technology to get the freshest, best tasting beer right from home!
Hello Kate and Morganna
Thank you so much. It was all thanks to your help. I don't think I knew what or how to write this and you lead me there. Huge thank you again, I really appreciate it!
Yes. I appreciate the more in depth explanation as to where the funding went.
Thank you Jong for taking some time to outline things in greater detail - I hope the backers find it useful reading.
Thanks so much for your explanations. This is extremely helpful and I really appreciate it. Let me get to the questions, I will try my best on the answers. Also, I would like to ask for your understanding again that I am limited by the litigation on the depth of what I can share at the moment, though I will share everything that I have to my best abilities.
1. The hardware was ready at the time and we were working on the software side when we were posting our campaign. We had much of the funds needed to start creation of molding to start the manufacturing, partners were lined up and things were looking good at the time. A successful campaign was going to get us to where we needed. We were also getting great feedbacks at the time from people who saw the device and tasted the beer and we had high expectations for the campaign. This was confirmed by a great campaign launch. Then, the reality struck – the campaign slowed down dramatically and being a first timer on crowdfunding campaigns, we panic’d. We brought in strategic advisors and marketing partners and others who can help us with the campaign. We also had to spend more money on campaign marketing to revive the campaign. We also started learning from our potential backers and discovered that we needed more than what we had, for example, making the device a standalone entity. We brought in the DIY features (Brewer’s Mode) and offered it as a stretch goal after meeting a $500K pledge mark, as meeting this goal would give us the funds needed to develop the feature. The feature was accepted by the people very well, which also created a back-fire at the same time, as we got lots of messages stating that existing backers would back out if the feature was not implemented and potential backers would not back unless the feature was implemented, all without the limitation of hitting the stretch goal. As a result and after a lot of thinking, we had to take the risk of finding the money somewhere to bring the feature in even though the goal that was going to give us the money to implement the feature was not met. There were others – for example, we found ways to widen the temperature range and faster temperature change rate without increase in cost, which was going to make the device lot more flexible with better performance and better fermentation for beer taste quality that had to be implemented before the start of manufacturing. This was also going to give stainless steel wort tank without increase in cost, making the device even more luxurious at the same price. This had to be done as we found that the design and the parts used on the previous design was not going to give us the range needed to give the best quality level that we expect from HOPii on certain types of beers and the best quality of the taste was #1 priority for us. We also found user errors when using the wort tank door, as the pressure built inside the bottle made it difficult to open and close the door and improper closure was creating leakages, thus we had to implement a new technical design that prevented this from happening. Also after a long time of usage, the wort evaporates could potentially cause sticky buttons on the ingredient tank door, thus we also updated the design there as well. As every beer has different characteristics, we found that there were also issues with amount of foaming on certain types of beers when pouring and we had to come up with creative ideas on how to optimize this and get it implemented before start of manufacturing. We had these done and completed DFM again. These also required changes in the aesthetic design of the device, changed the technical design of our cap, changed the parts needed. Then, we had the whole beer kit side where we were initially going to ship the freshly made worts to you with ice packing and potentially in refrigerated trucks, realized that to guarantee stable and taste preserved worts, decrease shipping costs and increase shelf life, we needed to invent a way to process the wort while not impacting the quality of the wort. We made great progress in them, but these contributed to the unexpected increases in money spending and created the need for the investment. Running out of money was not directly related to the litigation, in fact, we found the need for the investment earlier than the litigation. However, the investment in the field of hardware was extremely difficult especially in the current climate and the litigation basically shut the door completely.
2. There were a lot of unknowns at the time and if I had known what I know now, there probably would have been changes made. With the unknowns, we had some correct decisions and we had some incorrect ones. At the time, I did not have the information needed for these unknowns, especially this being our first crowdfunding campaign and all. And when there are many unknowns, it’s generally the best to make a decision, one that is thought to be the best one at the time than dragging on the decision and stall the project. So, we did and again, the financial impacts were made. These happened as we learned more during and after the campaign as stated above. The biggest areas of unexpected financial impacts are as follows : Development (software, hardware, beer kit, dispenser), Marketing (especially crowdfunding campaign marketing), as described above. There were also smaller unexpected categories such as taxes. The categories above include additional resources needed to fulfill the expertise that we needed, the legal fees needed for the task-related activities (contracts, etc), prototype creations, etc. For example, feature developments, hardware updates, wort processing R&D, prototype development, testing, campaign marketing were all very expensive and time consuming. As I’ve also stated in my update, this is what had caused me to think as an afterthought that maybe our scope was too big for a small startup to handle and maybe we should have started much smaller to start, then although the picture may not have been a complete one to start with, at least maybe the things would have been much easier, faster, cheaper and different.
3. On the prototypes, they are hand made and thus are very expensive, the reason why we only made a couple at each stage. We only have 2 final stage prototypes due to this reason as well. For prototype for any project, until moldings are made so that the custom parts could be easily and cheaply made and the manufacturing could be streamlined in volume, they are very expensive. The prices go down significantly once this is done and with economies of scale, it is how we are able to get the cost on manufacturing a product down significantly. Also, with the prototypes being hand-made, there could be human errors when making them (thus the reason why we try to make them in pairs each time), potentially creating any unknown quality or safety issues as well if not used right (for example, let’s say someone cut a part 0.1mm too short on the door hinge and somehow the door flies open due to pressure built in the bottle and you get hit due to this human error when making the parts manually. This wouldn’t happen when done with molding, as molding prints are precise to spec and stronger than 3D printed or human made parts). For any products, prototypes are made to be handled by experts only, so that they can try everything out and make sure that what you are getting is perfect, safe and fool-proof. The reasons above are why the prototypes cannot be distributed.
I tried to cover the topics listed (which was a great list that made me think more about what happened) and hope I was able to do it better. I completely understand the anger and I will take every single one that I deserve. I know that I've said this a million times already, but again - my sincere apologies again for what happened.
Jong, I think you need to understand why people are feeling so upset:
- Many of us purchased these as gifts and since the product was due out shortly and by all your posted accounts was pretty much ready to go had already ‘gifted’ them so there is an element of embarrassment and disappointment
- I don’t know many people that have that kind of cash spare to ‘gamble’ on a project. Instead people did their research and believed all the foundation information you provided at the beginning and during the project (e.g. partnerships in place, working prototypes etc.)
- We don’t understand how if the product was nearly ready (as you claim) you were going to afford to ship it out if you had already spent the shipping costs (a ‘last minute law suit’ shouldn’t have impacted the management of money collected over a year ago)
- I feel people are looking for more transparency around where money was overspent and at what stage. What parts costed more than expected and why?
- If you only sought $50k from backers initially and promised them a working product, how could you be seeking more investment to make it happen if you raised over $300k via the campaign?
- Blanket statements like ‘the prototypes are not distributable’ do not help the situation when multiple people have asked for them. You are in a situation of needing to provide valid reasoning behind such statements since you have lost credibility with many people
- Law suits aside you spent far too much money (which didn’t happen overnight) and the investors are naturally demanding a more in depth report as to why - you at least owe us that much
It is not sufficient as people are asking for a more in depth explanation. I don’t want a pie chart I want a proper paper trail detailing to us where exactly our money went.
As for the shipping costs - they should have been put into a separate account as soon as the funding was received.
Your project was presented as being in its final stages, the fact that you had clearly misrepresented such is on you and a simply sorry does not suffice.
Mismanagement is not an excuse and taking the full onus upon yourself doesn’t cut it.
I want proper details.
@backers, my sincere apologies again for the disappointments. Let me get to answering the questions below.
On the shipping costs, they were not differentiated separately from the original pledge amount, but were received as part of the money that we received from the pledge. We will be calculating the amount of refunds shortly and sending them back to our backers equally from everything that we have.
On the funds usage, this was explained in the update - I hope the explanation in the update is sufficient. Please let me know if more information is needed.
On the prototypes, unfortunately they are not distributable. My sincere apologies again for the disappointments caused.
As this project has failed, I would like a prototype copy of the Hopii as others have requested below. I do not care if it is only a prototype unit. I paid over $300, and I expect a product.
This was the first Kickstarter project I backed, and I guess I did not fully realize the risk I was undertaking by trusting a project with my money here. I am very disappointed that there isn't anything I can do to get my money back, and it seems incredulously irresponsible for the Kickstarter to not interfere and protect us from falling prey to these crooks (it doesn't seem very ethical since they collect large fees on the campaign proceeds). I will consider this my lessons learned, and will never back any project on the Kickstarter ever again. I wish I never knew about the kickstarter....
Had the lawsuit now happened, how were you planning to turn this dream into reality with just 4k in the account. You would obviously need a bridging loan or an investor to step in. You were looking to complete this project with just 50k, but you weren't able to complete it with 380k - that's a clear mismanagement of funds.
I am so incredibly dissapointed. This is my 3/5 backed project and the 3rd that has failed (watch that was bought out by fitbit, a card game i supported and now Hopii). Why would I ever support such a system again? I love losing american money when i pay through the nose for exchange rate... Nooo. nooooope. no.
Please explain to me where the money we paid for shipping went? You should at least be able to refund that in full.
There needs to be far more transparency.
What a scam ... too much partying with celebrities at CES and burning through the cash. The legal case is an excuse for poor management of burn rate. This was by far one of the most expensive Kickstarter projects I have supported. Will not be supporting any such projects again on Kickstarter.
Thanks so much for all your comments and my apologies for the delay in the response, as it was a very tough day for me yesterday with having to send such a devastating update, I needed some time to recoup myself. You have all the right to be upset and I would have been too if I were in your shoes as well. I know that it’s not going to help the situation, but I am extremely sorry for what happened and I will take the full blame for the situation. I will answer any questions to my best abilities to the limit of what could potentially impact the case – my apologies in advance for this (especially @Matthew on the first topic).
On the topic of legal fees, they are embedded in the respective sections as they included such as contract management, activity-related legal advices and other legal activities related to what we are working on. Any legal fees related to the case will not use any money from the company and we wouldn’t have even if we had the money right now.
@Alan, you have an excellent point and actually, this was one of the reasons why the update was delayed – we really wanted to find a way to continue and were trying very hard to find ways to do so until the very last moment but could not. I am still trying to understand the legal system there, but I am finding that the system is very different from here in US and many things possible here are not over there.
On the topic of poor management, I am to be blamed for as a CEO. On the topic of monthly updates, I tried my best to send monthly updates with everything that we had in hand, but I completely understand that the expectations were not met, which is my fault. There are many things that I would do differently if I could go back in time, as we have a lot of lessons learned, but at the time when there were many unknowns, the decisions made were really the best ones that we could make at the time.
On the topic of beer recipes, they were not developed recipes at HOPii and are the properties of respective recipe owners. Exclusivity to the 13 beer kits were possible because the owner of the recipe was our employee who was extremely passionate about our platform, but they do not belong to HOPii.
On the money management, we did everything that we could to save money as much as possible, such as driving instead of flying wherever possible and minimizing the amount of resources as much as possible to save money. Unfortunately, as progress was being made, issues were found, unknowns became known and mistakes were made along the way as we are only humans, and as a result, additional resources and activities became needed and money was needed to support them. Saving money is always the highest priority but is never enough and there are always better ways to do so. At the time, money spending was done to our best abilities while always trying to come up with ways to do things the cheapest way with having money savings always in our mind without sacrificing quality of work and time.
I understand that there are many questions, so please do keep them coming. I want to make sure that your questions are answered and I will try my best to get them answered to the best of my abilities. Thank you so much and again, my deepest apologies.
This was a scam. No way he, they didn't know what was going on WAY before this announcement was made.
In all honesty I don't think you are being transparent enough.
I'd really like to see monthly income statements or the cash flow entering and exiting the company by line item if possible. If anything, putting a pie chart in an email is not enough, especially when you had working prototypes. A company that funds a project over 700% from their goal with a working prototype and claims to have the wort sorted out should probably fulfill the project 99% of the time. There seems to be two stories told, one before Kickstarter funding and one well after. We need to know exactly where funds were going and the only way I could trust that is by seeing the financial transactions myself. It's shocking that you were still looking for VC investment after 700% funding to complete a project and bumping arms with celebrities. You should have been more open when you had issues along the way or given people a chance to back out when things weren't going well. You at least had the obligation to let people know from the beginning that you were still looking for outside VC funding to complete this project. Maybe I missed it but I didn't see that statement and it looks from the get go that you lied. I don’t think that the requests for financial transactions (through excel sheets or data exported from a csv file from a financial institution) is an unreasonable request since you have shut the company down.
The second thing is, I doubt LG's lawyers came knocking overnight, at what point did they contact you regarding the patent? Also, at what point and with how much in the bank did you realize that this wasn't going to be fulfilled. With your burn rate calculated, I'm sure you knew more advanced then at the beginning of this month that this project wasn't going to be finished. Or were you going milk you accounts dry to the last penny if LG didn't come after you? And leave us with literally nothing.
Three, I would love a name of every HOPii employee. I want to make sure that Kickstarter is aware of who was involved in the cluster bomb and that nobody associated with this company is allowed to be associated with another Kickstarter again. The complete mismanagement of backers money is astonishing. Instead of creating the project it looks like you used the money to expand like a startup, something that VC's push for. Not releasing a product like promised and then expanding on that product in future with upgrades, like how Picobrew did it. Those founders did things the right way.
Four. I really hope at the least you reach out to every commenter in a prompt manner. You should be responding to comments at least within 24 hours of them posting a comment.
I hope you don't feel like people are attacking you, we simply want answers and more proof that you didn't mismanage our money. It sure looks like you did.
pledged of $50,000 goal
Preferrably something around the equal value of the amount pledged.
I wasn't expecting this coming from how many good companies that promoted your project. Buuut...since we can't do anything to make this happen regarding this project... well... I'll glady accept a few cases/gallons of beer instead. What say you?
Requesting 1 - Fully functional protype, please.
"On the shipment, it will be 6 months from when we receive our funding, which we are still diligently working on, so, there will be a delay"...
Money was taken from funders back in 2017 - My credit card receipt clearly shows. Bank has been notified and will investigate.
The math does not make sense. What does personal litigation have to do with production - unless the idea or concept was somehow 'borrowed' - infringement of IPR.
From the campaign page: "HOPii has experienced and professional manufacturing partners lined up, and our prototype is fully functional."
That's the obligation from you under which I sent you money (it has to be or authorities could construe a crime of Wire Fraud against all of you, as well as possible RICO act violations), please ship one "fully functional prototype" to me. I don't need a production unit, the prototype is perfectly acceptable. Note that I am the first to demand one of the machines as remedy.
The one where you dispensed beer to celebrities and critics will do, even if it is used. I don't care about its color or if it's scratch and dent.
Also, please send us ALL of the beer recipes you had developed using our money - the backers jointly own those. Those recipes are the property of the backers here and are not free to be taken elsewhere. Same goes for all of the engineering and production tooling drawings associated with the machine, CAD files, firmware listings, etc. If you want to open source everything except the recipes, I'm OK with all being posted on GitHub, which would enable the community to evolve what you have as a working prototype.
Classic example of how not to run a kickstarter project or any start up. Never ever saw regular status updates and you expect the supporters to think you were transparent all along? Just a pathetically managed project that I wish I never had backed. Not because its a failure, because of the way you folks handled it.
I would love to understand more about the legal case you mention. Before anything has been filed at court you would usually not need much expenses, after being filed you should be able to share the details. At least you can potentially use the crowd and their contacts to help push back the litigation.
On the other hand you have stopped the project too late, after even the shipment share of the investment has been spend. As your financial breakdown stands, there are no legal costs. How did you spend them?
So if you expect some help, you need to share full details. Else, as I was the only one pledging for a signature pack, I would hope to get at least the signature.
This appears to be more of a case of poor management. If the company needed "bridge funding" to complete the project, then it would appear false promises were made and the product was not as viable as promised. The legal issues are merely a smoke screen.
Your recent email expalining the liquidation of the company gives a breakdown of spending. There is no mention of legal costs i.e. it would appear the backers money was spent where it should have been, on the product. So if there was enough funding to complete the product and ship to backers before this legal roadblock appeared, there should still be enough funds to do so now. I understand you have suffered personal expense due to the legal issues, but your personal funds were not part of the pledge and so are not key to successful completion.
Its seems clear no court case has happened yet so im confused as to why you dont simply continue, finish the production and shipping asap, right up until the day a judge in a court room demands you stop. There are plenty of free legal aid options - you appear to have given up too soon but maybe we havent heard the full story.
Delays are just the nature of kickstarter projects, and I am not terribly bothered by them. When I backed, I assumed from the outset that I probably wouldn't actually get the device until 2019 or so.
That said, my easygoing attitude towards delays depends entirely on the project being up front whenever there is an issue and delivering an explanation to the backers immediately when they know there is a problem. Even if you are still working on a solution, I would rather hear about the problem now and get further updates about the solution process later.
I don’t like the fact that everyone is not getting these e-mails and also what issues are you having? Let us know please.
@Backers, our sincere apologies for the delay in updates. As Martin has said, we ran into an unexpected issue. We are in discussions to find what is the best way to resolve the issue. We owe you the full story and will get it to you as soon as we find what is the best way, as soon as we can. We would appreciate just a little more time. Our sincere apologies and thank you so much again for your patience. Team HOPii
Thanks Martin for the update on your conversation with them. Hopefully they will come to a resolution to satisfy all backers since this looks like it will not be fulfilled.
To all. HOPii are in serious trouble. I got a message from them 4 days ago and it ain't looking good. They said in the message: We want to be transparent with our backers and will be making an announcement on this shortly via our next update". That has not happend yet.
I don't want to post the message I got from them here, but I don't see that they will be able to deliever HOPii anytime soon.
I really hope they post a status update soon. I also sent them a private message yesterday about a question I had but have yet to get a response.
Status update, please.
I didn't get any messages since April 6th, What happens to our money if this does not become reality? This is my first Kickstarter project i have supported.
I got a message from HOPii. Anyone else? They say they will post a announcement soon.
When will this be shipped? This is a gift for my husband - he’s been looking forward to getting it - I feel bad that he’s waiting longer than we originally thought.
Is there another update on shipping time/ what’s been happening?
I’m sure this will be worth the wait - but being in the know about what is going on is important.
End of month was 10 days ago. End of week was a week ago. No update nothing.
@William Manske, I sure hope not, but I think we've been had.