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Yeah, had pretty much given up on this one. I guess everyone eventually ends up pledging a KS that fails to make it to release. Too bad this had to be one of them.
Wow. I'd honestly let G:AR slide from my brain a bit and just popped in tonight to see what's what, and I find this rather sordid tale of theft and deceit. Full marks to Thunt for standing up for what's right. And I hope the thief-in-the-night Richard James knows that he can go straight to hell.
Wow. Tarol's tone is much less...ambiguous about Richard's conduct this time around.
new tweet from Tarol
Wonder if little Dick has his domain set up for auto-renewal...it comes up on November 2nd of this year. So many ideas if he doesn't...
There is also the fact that some of us pledged at one level during the KS, and added funds after the KS ended when they were available (to get the Shield of Wonder set). So even though my pledge says $55 dollars pledged, the total is $99 in the pledge manager. So the fun continues...
Tarol tweeted on the 20th of December that he had gotten a list of all the backers 11$ and up. https://twitter.com/Thunt_Goblins
Any update on the situation will be most likely found at his website or on his feed.
So can we please stop with the KS bashing/trolling now? it's certainly not helping.
@Justin: I don't think all 2200 Kickstarter backers are monitoring this thread, to say nothing of those who pitched in on the Evertide website.
have to wonder but.. can't we just get all the backers to post here? you can only post comments to this if you backed. I did the $55 lvl myself. From this page you can follow to ppls profiles where it lists that they did indeed back as well.
As for running off with the money, KS might not do anything, but it should still be possible to sue Evertide over this. They're based out of CT, so they're subject to US business law and they've clearly embezzled and broken whatever contract they had with Mr. Hunt.
That's a troll fail right there. Why would someone who isn't a fan of Goblins (particularly one that seems to dislike it, rather than just not know anything of it), back this project in the first place? And that's just the start of the problems there, lol.
I know kickstarter isn't condoning the guy that ran off with the money, but they are once again showing themselves to be... incapable of delivering on the trust customers put into them when handing over the money. Kickstarter not releasing the info required for the comic creator to be able to fulfill the rewards shows, in my opinion, a lack of care towards the people that actually are the reason they exist in the first place.
More and more I am starting to see kickstarters promises as being quite hollow, ultimately leaving us that paid their wages without any protection at all. they don't mind taking the money for hosting the site, but when they actually need to start working for those money it seems like they suddenly find all sorts of excuses of why they "can't do that".
Well, I'm starting to find it hard to excuse to myself why I should bother with kickstarters in the future.
Travellers Beware, Here be Trolls!
I should have known better then to back any project that involves Tarol in the slightest.
This is really annoying and unfortunate. I have been looking forward to G:AR for months - and I know how long these things can take, so I wasn't really concerned - other than the weird "semi-update" message from Eventide. No that I have read Tarol's updates, I wish there was some way for us to get our money back and pass it on to the person who is getting this actually done. :( I am less concerned about the money spent than about seeing Tarol spend his own money to make it right for all of us when he got screwed over as well.
In case anyone missed it, I believe Tarol said he got a hold of some sort of info. Posted on his twitter IIRC.
It's a shame the Kickstarter.com (KS) is unwilling to work with Tarol. It's not a matter of liability or responsibility, it's a matter of rebuilding accountability and trust in the system.
While KS is not responsible for Richard's (Dick) actions, the fact of the matter is that KS and Tarol are both left holding the bag of crap that Dick left them. KS may just hold that bag of crap and say "hey, not my problem, I'm a big company and can survive this," Tarol is not satisfied with holding the bag. It would be an easy fix for KS to say "hey, this Tarol guy seems to be like a second in command of the project and we've lost the head of the project, lets give temporary access to the information to Tarol until the Dick shows up."
Having read most of KS's Terms of Service, there are plenty of options available to KS should they choose to exercise them. BUT I'm not their lawyer so it's not my place to advise them, and honestly, they don't seem interested in being a part of the solution from their alleged conversations with Tarol.
@EricHolz It's an ongoing problem, but Tarol is on the case and trying to make the most of a bad situation. You can look the goblins comic website for updates concerning the game.
Incidentally, I discovered that Richard used to hold some blogs (just search for rcjames14) and this quote from him felt particuarly striking: Men will always prove untrue to you unless they are kept honest by constraint.
Well done Richard.
So this is officially a failure? Kickstarter should send emails to backers letting them know when a project is officially a failure and update the page to represent not only the backing status but also the delivery status. I'm not angry; I'm disappointed.
I'm not sure if an online petition would help but if somebody starts one please let me know :).
@BradleyMWeyers Indeed, it's strange that we can't already make our contributions public.
Do we create an online petition, or is anyone familiar with Kickstarter's processes in these matters?
Hmm apparently Thunt is having issues getting Kickstarter to provide him Backer's list see his third update from the 11th of Dec http://www.goblinscomic.org/lowtide-the-undead-kickstarter-campaign-third-update/
We may need to see if we as backers can ask it to be released to him
At this point this THIEF better never cross my path, if he does I will get my 99$ worth of flesh.
Money can ruin people. The guy probably saw the money, had good intentions, got greedy and skipped town. I have backed many projects, a few are on time, but most have delays for at least a few months, but this is the first time that someone has just taken the money and ran. What a douche. I wasted $99. It could have been worse. 9 people paid over $1000. He screwed over 2,272 people. He is not the first to screw over people in the gaming industry. I cannot think of the name right now, but I think that it was one of the Kevins in Palladium Games that got away with screwing over freelance authors for decades. He would decline to publish their ideas. Then he published them as his own.
@ Brett, Thanks missed that line, good to hear.
@Jon, Thunt said that Evertide has passed the limitation in which they were required by their agreement to produce the game, after which the legal rights to the game have reverted to him because of their failure to deliver.
@Spartacus I know what you mean. This WAS a great kickstarter. One of the best I had participated in up until the point everything went south. I wouldn't say it went wrong from the start. The beginning of this was extremely well executed and the project design was great. The follow through was the disaster.
My only concern is that depending on how Thunt licensed Goblins to Evertide couldn't he be opening himself up to legal action if he finishes their game and puts it up for sale? In theory they could go after any profits he made even though he's using the money to complete their obligations. Hopefully he has all the legal angles worked out long before completing anything.
I for one will not be backing anything by Evertide games ever again and am advising all my game playing friends to do the same. This is the first kickstarter I have backed that has gone so badly wrong from the start.
@ Le Mignon Vincent:
That was added to the ToS sometime after this campaign ended, and it doesn't affect projects retroactively. In other words, this project was made during the period in which failing project creators didn't have to explain anything to their backers. I forget which exact project prompted the creation of that rule, but it was a response to a rash of "take the money and run" style fake projects.
Tarol has a second blog up. This one containing game-design updates (since he has a prototype), a twitter hashtag for backer questions, and a decline to remove any backers from the backer-list he has.
I think that technically the project page on the Kickstarter site isn't included in that defaulting unfortunately. It just makes it a project page that no longer has legal rights to produce what it is promising. But I would like to hear what Kickstarter has to say on this whole mess.
True. I posted that out of frustration. And tarol said he wouldn't post any, due to the sensitive nature of such things. The case is far from closed. I've submitted a few inquiries to kick starter's "Integrity Team". Eager to hear their input on what happens when the project lead defaults, since Tarol seemed to suggest that as of now, the G:AR properties revert to him.
Well, THunt isn't providing any current legal details, but the guy as far as I understand it, hasn't "gotten away with it" quite yet. Still a fair point Dead Parrot.
So two gamer chicks can get a landslide of death threats for being gamer chicks. But this guy gets out with nearly 200k in the money of comic book fans, and leaves his creative partner high and dry?
I'm pretty sure it is even impossible for Evertide to make a return and put off a refund through kickstarter's legal articles at this point, because they can't legally produce the project anymore as the rights to G:AR have completely reverted to THunt. So it doesn't seem like there's a legal way for them to avoid being forced into refunding. Although I will gladly trust that money over to Tarol to finish this thing if that were to happen.
I just can't believe it that Evertide would screw everyone over, though it does seem highly suspect when you look at their webpage to find G:AR gone and replaced by another 3 games that i'm sure weren't there several months ago. I'm thankful that Thunt wants to make things right, which is more than Evertide has tried.
Legal action looks like the only course of action.
We have his name, we know where evertide used to be, we know he's still connecting to his social media he is just avoiding us. What can I do ? Not much from where I live, I already filled a complains about this but it's not going to do much. We need to unite as goblin fans and persue him where he lives. I also believe maybe Tarol could do that ? He did not mention in his post if he tried to go to the police. Afterall if they forced him to pay what he owe us it would pull him out of this jam.
I wonder if our money wasn't "borrowed" to pay debts incurred working on the other notorious Evertide Kickstarter, with intentions use the profits of that to fund this when that took off.
I don't know how we could collectively persue this, legally.
In Thunt's post, he said that Evertide staff had been deliberately avoiding him. They obviously wont willingly engage with us, they want to just slink away with all of our money.
How do we act as a collective? We're all from different countries with different laws, are seperate sets of rights violated presently? Or is it the local law where Evertide is? Or where kickstarter is hosted?
I'm clueless on the legality but behind the concept - it's not okay to wordlessly bail on people like this.
Major props to Thunt for doing his very best. He is a good person in a bad place right now and doesn't deserve this
As I was saying months ago :
How do we file a lawsuit since he wont give us refund?
"If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers."
And as we all saw we got none of that. So we still have every right to do something about it.
I trust that something will happen out of Thunt's involvement, but it's infuriating to be faced with a situation like this and not being able to respond in any way. I'm guessing we'll never know the what really happened which is such a shame.
My guess is that we'll never hear from Evertide Games again. I can't say this is surprising news given all the BS Richard and Graydon spewed. Karma's a rhymes-with-witch, though.
As for Thunt, that guy, he's OK :)
I trust Thunt will get everyone their rewards, it sucks that he has to shoulder everything given that he didn't get any money at all for any of this. But I'm glad the rights aren't being held with Evertide anymore. And I will make a note of making sure never to back any of their projects ever again in the future (if they even dare to try it) and make sure to warn off everyone I can from doing so.
Yeah, this sucks pretty hard. Thunt doesn't deserve this mess.
Rick James rickrolled us.
I wonder how the internet will respond.
So I guess we all got scammed by http://evertidegames.com/? Well balls.
New Cannan isn't that far from me....
Major props to Tarol for this. As far as I see, he isn't obligated to do anything, but he says he is going to make this happen, and I trust that he will. That said, don't anyone dare give him grief about this. This wasn't his fault and he's fixing it anyways.
Tarol Hunt has made an official announcement: http://www.goblinscomic.org/lowtide-update-for-goblins-alternate-realities/
Long Story short: Evertide has failed their contractual obligations, and all the rights of G:AR have reverted to him, he will be doing his best to fulfill the obligations, even though he never got one red cent of the money we all donated.
Props to Tarol, he's good people.
I just looked at Ever tide games website and noticed that goblins is no longer on their tabs as a game they make :( I know I'm no the only one that paid a lot for this game and am very sad that no one is giving info for this game.