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Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games.
Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games.
9,023 backers pledged $526,125 to help bring this project to life.

Final Update

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A year has passed since our "pause button update," and it's been a busy year. To explain everything that I and others have done on the CLANG and post-CLANG fronts since then would require a book. That is a fact that I can verify, since I sat down a few weeks ago to write another update, and actually have ended up writing a book about it--a short book, by my standards, but way too long for an update. Maybe it'll eventually get published in some form.

In the meantime, here's the closest I can come to a TL;DR.

Last year, Subutai Corporation delivered the CLANG prototype and the other donor rewards as promised. The prototype was technically innovative, but it wasn't very fun to play. This is for various reasons. Some of these were beyond our control. Others are my responsibility in that I probably focused too much on historical accuracy and not enough on making it sufficiently fun to attract additional investment.

Members of the team made large personal contributions of time and money to the project before, during, and after the Kickstarter phase. Some members, when all is said and done, absorbed significant financial losses. I am one of them; that has been my way of taking responsibility for this. The team had considerable incentives--emotional and financial--to see CLANG move on to the next round of funding. They showed intense dedication and dogged focus that I think most of our backers would find moving if the whole story were told. I will forever be grateful to them. In the end, however, additional fundraising efforts failed and forced the team to cut their losses and disband in search of steady work.

As all this was happening, new ideas and opportunities presented themselves. These reflect a lot of experience that was gained and connections to the industry that were made during that project. Although these ideas and opportunities may ultimately wind up in some of the same places we wanted to take CLANG, they will do so in non-obvious ways, by starting from a clean sheet of paper in each case, building new teams, and pursuing projects that in some cases have no obvious connection to historical swordfighting.

I have delayed talking publicly about these projects for a long time because I kept thinking that at least one of them would reach a point where I could describe it in something other than generalities. I apologize for that delay. But now a year has passed since the last update and I've decided that it's cleaner and simpler to cut the cord, and announce the termination of CLANG. Future announcements can then happen in their own good time, giving any new projects a fresh start.

By combing through comment threads and emails we have identified around two dozen CLANG backers who have asked for refunds. Those have already been processed; those people have their money back (about $700 altogether). We think that is within the normal scope of a Kickstarter project and we don't think it sets any precedents that would give other organizations misgivings about using Kickstarter to fund their projects in the future.

Other backers may now opt in to a list called REVERB from which future announcements will be made about upcoming projects. It is possible that these projects will one day yield bonus rewards for CLANG backers, but no guarantees can be made on that front since these projects are just getting off the ground and will likely involve entities other than Subutai Corporation. My recommendation is that you sign up for the list. You can do so by visiting this URL:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/REVERB

Thanks for backing the CLANG project. I am sorry that we were unable to advance it beyond the phase that you funded.

(signed)

Neal Stephenson

Ed H., Frederick Lazar, and 51 more people like this update.

Comments

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    1. Alex Brant-Zawadzki on May 3, 2017

      The link goes to a closed survey. What do I do?

    2. Todd on August 17, 2016

      I stumbled upon this update why telling a friend about the Kickstarter Campaign.
      Any way to get access to the REVERB list so I can receive future updates?
      Thanks.

    3. Jay Welshofer on July 23, 2015

      So long and thanks for all the fish?

    4. James Diss on July 15, 2015

      Did we ever find out how they burned through half a million dollars? With the FTC stuff flying about Star Citizen, it would be fun to see what the burn rate was for. Also, backers that received _something_. What did you get?

    5. @BSanbizzle on April 10, 2015

      Worst kick starter campaign ever.

    6. Sandra Ginn on February 16, 2015

      I never got my 25 bucks back. Thanks for nothing

    7. Ryun Patenaude on January 23, 2015

      That stinks and im sorry that this was not able to continue. What are the odds of refunds still being avaliable?

    8. Missing avatar

      Zarlan on January 6, 2015

      @Subutai
      I would just like to add:
      You are closing the door on refunds?
      You never informed anyone that the door was ever open, in the first place!
      IF you had made an effort to inform all backers that they can get a refund (i.e., if you had done what I have suggested, multiple time, in offering a refund), THEN you could be justified in saying that you'll close the door (though only after giving a deadline, rather than closing it, without any prior notice)

      As it is, the comment is completely disingenuous.
      Most of the backers never held any hope, of getting any refunds ...and thus didn't bother to ask for one.
      Most people have simply given up on getting anything from Subutai, and have simply accepted that they were defrauded, and gone on with their lives. They don't bother to check (much less write in) the comments ...or bother to do any careful reading of the updates.

      Even most of those people who do want a refund, and have checked the comments, won't have bothered to ask for a refund, as they have seen it as a waste of effort. An attempt that obviously wont result in anything, especially as Subutai apparently had decided that they had already refunded all the people they were going to refund. As it is, they did refund a few more (at a very small cost), and then said that they close the door, in an attempt to seem like they gave us a window of opportunity and that anyone who complains further, only have themselves to blame.
      This is, as I've explained above, completely untrue.

    9. Missing avatar

      Zarlan on January 6, 2015

      (the last comment was, of course, directed at Brian Casey. I forgot to add a "@Brian Casey")

    10. Missing avatar

      Zarlan on January 6, 2015

      "Still the Zarlan Show is see."

      What? What does... What?
      That makes no grammatical sense.

      " I would like to mention Carl and especialy Zarlan do not speak for me either."

      I have never claimed to speak for you, so stop implying that I have. I do not appreciate dishonest and baseless accusations.
      Be my guest: Speak for yourself.
      I will speak for myself.

    11. Brian on December 30, 2014

      Still the Zarlan Show is see. I would like to mention Carl and especialy Zarlan do not speak for me either. Your constant replies to drive home points some of us have already stated we don't agree with and then call our opinions "foolish" only shows how hypocritical you are.

      i will not rise up with you Spartacus. Find an actual cause with merit to rally the troops about.

    12. Subutai Corporation Creator on December 15, 2014

      It's been nearly three months since this last update, and I'm officially closing the door on any more refunds. A couple have trickled in over the last week or so, and we'll honor them. The survey will be available for another few weeks if you'd like to sign up for the REVERB mailing list. We recently sent out the first announcement to that list.

      Thanks,

      -mark

    13. Carl W. on December 2, 2014

      This comment has been removed by Kickstarter.

    14. Carl W. on December 2, 2014

      This comment has been removed by Kickstarter.

    15. Missing avatar

      Zarlan on November 16, 2014

      @Cyrus McEnnis
      That bit is fair enough, but that was not the only thing you said.

      I find the notion that you consider your money well spent, to be utterly foolish and your defence of these fraudsters to be frankly offensive.

      Further more, they have NOT encouraged or done anything positive, towards any efforts to introduce realistic (or motion control-based) swordsmanship in games.
      If anything, they have made it much harder for anyone else to make any attempt at it, due to having made the potential audience rather distrustful.
      ...and no one can build on their "efforts", as we don't have their code, or anything. Not that the code would be worth much anyway, IMO

    16. Cyrus McEnnis on November 14, 2014

      As I said, I knew the risks. By all means, keep pushing for what you want. I've got no issues at all with that. All I'm saying is that the backer in question doesn't speak for me.

      I'm not in any way shape or form saying you shouldn't continue your campaign, although I'll admit that I find it quixotic at best. All I'm saying is that someone is presuming to speak for me when they don't, and I'd appreciate them not making that rhetorical claim on my behalf.

    17. Missing avatar

      Zarlan on November 14, 2014

      @Cyrus McEnnis
      No, he doesn't speak for ALL 9k+ backers ...but he does speak for a lot of us.

      You consider your money well spent, for the opportunity to encourage people to lie about what they are going to try to do with the money, make NO effort towards actually making a game ...and clearly and blatantly going against the Kickstarter ToS and the LEGAL CONTRACT that you enter into (with your backers), as a consequence of making a Kickstarter project?

      I gave my money, not really to get the game myself, but for Subutai to make the game (and thus, hopefully, encourage realistic swordfighting in games).
      They didn't make the game.
      Had they tried to make the game, but failed, that would have been fine.
      ...but they made it clear that they never tried to do so, from the start. They also made it clear that they spent some of the money, that was for making the game, towards things that were outside of the project.

      They are in breach of contract, they have not fulfilled any of pledge rewards (aside from a couple of T-shirts and PDFs, apparently) and they are guilty of fraud.
      By rights they should, at the very least, re-fund everyone (or offer everyone a refund), but they have instead offered a refund to a few of the more vocal critics, in a hope to shut them up, at a small cost. (I was offered it, but rejected it, as I don't accept bribes. I'll accept it, when it is offered to all backers ...aside from those who have already received one, of course)

    18. Cyrus McEnnis on November 13, 2014

      @Carl W.

      No, you don't actually speak for all 9K. I knew the risks when I backed, and I consider my money well spent for the opportunity of encouraging this type of development. You're more than welcome to keep railing on against the machine, but please don't attempt to claim you speak for me. You don't.

    19. Carl W. on November 8, 2014

      This comment has been removed by Kickstarter.

    20. Missing avatar

      Zarlan on October 27, 2014

      It seems a few other have received refunds. How many?
      A dozen more, perhaps?
      That doesn't really show any change in Subutai's attitude or approach.
      They are still just trying to silence a select few vocal people, at a negligible cost, whilst keeping pretty much all of the money that they defrauded.

    21. Missing avatar

      Kletian999 on October 27, 2014

      Thank you for processing my refund request today. For others, my request was on 9/18 so expect it to take a bit. Really sorry this game didn't work out, I hope the tech lessons learned inform future sword fighting game endeavors.

    22. Missing avatar

      diracshard on October 2, 2014

      I would like a refund please.

    23. Missing avatar

      dgatos42 on October 2, 2014

      Hey guys, you tried. It was a cool idea that just didn't work out. I can't speak for others, but I'm on this site to support ideas that wouldn't get quote unquote mainstream funding. Don't let this get you down. The best way you would be able to give me a refund is by coming up with a new idea and making something awesome. And if that one doesn't work, try yet another new idea. We need people like you guys in the game industry, people willing to try stuff that no one else has thought of. Have a good one.

    24. Missing avatar

      Zarlan on October 2, 2014

      @Brian Casey You do realise that the latest comments contain about a page of non-Zarlan comments?

      ...also, if you don't want it too be all me: Make sure others comment more.
      I'm not under any obligations to act in accordance to the wishes of some random person. Especially not one who is rude to me. I'm not your underling. I am my own person.

    25. Brian on October 1, 2014

      would like this comment section to not be the Zarlan Show starring Zarlan anymore.

    26. Missing avatar

      Ben Johnson on September 24, 2014

      I would like a refund please

    27. Missing avatar

      Bob Matsuoka on September 24, 2014

      I would like a refund please.

    28. bar10dr on September 23, 2014

      I just write it down as a personal lesson :) No worries

    29. Florian Hübner on September 23, 2014

      Thanks for the update. To bad it didnt work out as planned but thats the way of things sometimes. Good luck for your future endeavors, looking forward to hear something through the REVERB list.

      best regards
      Florian

    30. Missing avatar

      Adrian on September 23, 2014

      @Jacob - Click on "Backer History" in the drop down at the top right of this page.

      Navigate the backer history and click on this project.

      On the project's page that you arrive at, your back number is display next to a black gear/star shaped symbol.

    31. Missing avatar

      Jacob Boersma on September 23, 2014

      Where can I find my CLANG backer number? It's requested in the survey for the Reverb mailing list, but I don't know where I can find out what my number is.

    32. Missing avatar

      Zarlan on September 22, 2014

      I've backed another project, paying a LOT more than I did here, where things have also gone kinda bad
      ...but they clearly made an honest effort and kept us backer informed of what they were doing, so I'd not demand a refund from them, even if they hadn't been able to make the stuff (as it is, it's all been made ...they just can't afford to ship it to us)

      THIS project, on the other hand...

    33. Missing avatar

      Zarlan on September 22, 2014

      @Coylabe
      Shouting? What shouting? Aside from that one sentence in all caps (and that only because I was responding to a sentence in all caps)...

      "And I'd like legal advice about what I can do if I'm not refunded."

      Well a class action lawsuit would be nice, if someone organizes it with a lawyer. Due to various issues (a couple of, so called, "invisible disabilities") I'm not up to it, but if anyone starts one, I'd join it in a heartbeat.
      Other than that... I dunno.
      I have reported the project to Kickstarter, but I dunno how much effect that has on a project that has already been funded. Kickstarter are pretty clear that they leave these kind of disagreements to be settled between the creators and backer (potentially with the help of lawyers)

    34. Missing avatar

      Adrian on September 22, 2014

      I wanted to provide a thoughtful and heartfelt response to your message, but Barry's outlined my feelings far better than I ever could.

      Some small additions to Barry's note below:

      You guys (CLANG) tried. Kickstarter is about pushing the boundaries of "new" and "interesting" in ways that wouldn't/couldn't happen elsewhere - occasionally even past the point of "possible". The boundary may have been breached here, but I knew that going into the project. I'm grateful for the ride, even if it didn't get to where we all hoped it would.

      I won't comment on the decisions of other backers from here on out, but I will say that I think my views are in keeping with the spirit of Kickstarter. If I wanted a 100% assured outcome on the projects I backed, I'd go shopping at Amazon. Instead, I wanted to place my dollars in the hands of someone trying something new. There was a chance it wouldn't work out. That's why it's on Kickstarter, and not being bankrolled as a AAA title that'll get pushed out via presales at GameStop, Walmart and Amazon.

      Thanks Neal, and team, for trying to achieve a dream. I hope you find a way to put this in the hands of the community, through open source or otherwise.

      Lastly, thanks Barry, for stating this so eloquently:

      ===

      Dear Neal and my fellow backers:
      I have had good and bad experiences with KS most of my stuff has been games. I have funded 77 projects and have had four problem projects. That is a success rate of 95% of my projects. That is better than almost any other activity I can think of when it comes to putting my money where I want it to do some good and get some cool stuff.

      In his letter Neal mentions rewards having been sent. I spent $75 on the project. I bought a Hydra kit at the special pricing that was offered through the project. I have no real use for it but hey, I did get a big discount. I have been hoping for the concept art and the fighting manual as those are digital deliverables and after creation have low per unit costs.

      With all that said.
      This project was never about the money. I wanted to see someone make an effort to make a Melee game that was not button mashing.

      NEAL:
      Good job. I think you did exactly what I expected and hoped for. Others can take the concept forward from here is you let/want them to do so.
      If I never get the art work becuase it never got made. I will live. I would love to read the "booklet" update. It would be helpful to the KS community. I am sure that the team faced challenges that could be helpful to everyone to learn from.
      As for refunds. You delivered a functional demo and explain what happened. Paying the salaries of a bunch of cool people who share my interest in martial combat is a good way to spend money.
      Not only do I not want a refund. I would be happy to help absorb some of the losses suffered by individuals. Thank you all for your hard work and dedication the whole concept of crowdsourcing is to allow people to take risks and share the possible loses among a pool of volunteers. No one person on the team could have attempted this and no single backer would have bankrolled it.
      I am good thanks for the honesty update.
      Barry D. Guertin

    35. Missing avatar

      Coylabe on September 22, 2014

      @Zarlan
      Stop shouting. We're already in agreement.

      In any event, I'd like to make a correction: I now want to be fully refunded, independent of whether the game goes open-source or not. And I'd like legal advice about what I can do if I'm not refunded.

    36. Missing avatar

      Zarlan on September 22, 2014

      @Coylabe
      "Far be it from me to defend Subutai for this, but I think you're speaking with too much authority; feel free to prove me wrong."

      Okay.
      Let's do just that
      https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use…
      https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics…
      Read those.
      Those confirm all I say, about the responsibility that Subutai has towards their backers.
      (BTW: The TOS has been updated, but nothing has been changed, other than the use of clearer wording ...though you can check the old one, if you insist)

      If there is any detail, aside from whether or not they worked on the game, that you still think I'm going too far on, please do elaborate. If I'm wrong, I'd like to be corrected.

      "You're saying that "By their own admission, they didn't work on the game.""

      No, that is twisting my words, somewhat, though I can see how you get that impression.
      Let me clarify:
      I'm saying that, by their own admission, they didn't try to make a game.
      They just tried to make a crappy alpha/pre-alpha/demo (which is not a game), and nothing more.
      They promised a game.
      ...yet they have stated that the demo they released, was all that they ever intended to do, for the Kickstarter
      (and surely I don't need to provide any evidence of that? There is plenty of it and you can't possibly have missed it. Heck, even this update is an example of it, with their "Last year, Subutai Corporation delivered the CLANG prototype and the other donor rewards as promised." line).

      Whether or not they "worked hard" is completely irrelevant.
      If I give someone money to build a house, and they create an outhouse, then they've screwed me over.
      How hard they worked to build it, is beside the point:
      They still didn't even try to build a house!

      "You said that the Kickstarter funds shouldn't have been used to seek further funding in the first place... and I suspect you're correct."

      There is no need to suspect.
      Read the FAQ and/or the Terms of Service, and it's as clear as day: Using any bit of the Kickstarter money to get further funding, is a fraudulent breach of contract. Granted, the amount doesn't seem to have been that great, but still.
      Not that it'd have been something to complain all that much about, had they behaved themselves otherwise, mind you.

      "WE HAVE NO WAY TO BE SURE THAT THE EFFORT WAS HONEST IN THE FIRST PLACE."

      YES WE HAVE!
      They stated that releasing that demo (which, as you've stated yourself, isn't what they promised) was a fulfilment of their promise.
      They stated that making a demo, NOT a full game, was what they intended all along.
      They stated that they used the Kickstarter money for non-Kickstarter purposes.

      These are all admissions of dishonesty.
      Thus we can know that they did not make an honest effort.

      Sure, you could argue that they actually DID intend to make a full game, and that the talk of the demo being all that they intended, is actually just their back-pedalling (and that is quite possible)
      ...but that would be an example of being utterly dishonest towards your backers too, now wouldn't it? That complete and utter lie would completely go against what the Kickstarter TOS describes as "making an honest effort" and would be a clear breach of contract.

      "A game that can pit player against player, that can emulate swordsmanship realistically"

      Simulate, not emulate. There is quite a significant difference.

      "I can't shake the feeling that another game designer could have made a game that was both fun and technically innovating with the same budget."

      Another game designer could have made a fun and innovating arena fighting game, with realistic swordfighting, using about a tenth of the budget.

      Especially if you only want to create a game that is a proof-of-concept, showing that realistic sword-fighting in games can be done (and be fun), and which can then be used to get more funds for more proper such games. (thus meaning that you don't bother with ambitious things like building an engine from scratch, using novel controls or anything like that. You can try doing that stuff, AFTER you've gotten things rolling)

    37. Andrew Shewmaker on September 22, 2014

      Neal,

      I must have missed the email(s) describing how to get the PDF of the illustrated Clang fighting manual that it sounds like at least some others did get. Could you send me a new email with it attached or instructions how to download it? I would really appreciate it.

      I did download the demo and thought it showed promise. It's too bad that you couldn't attract more funding. I'm looking forward to hearing about the new projects.

      Since you said the other projects will be starting from clean slates, it sounds like the Clang code won't be of much use to them, but it would be a great thing to give to those of us who backed the Clang project. I hope you open source the Clang code (as much as is possible).

      Thank you,

      Andrew

    38. Missing avatar

      Coylabe on September 22, 2014

      @Zarlan:

      Far be it from me to defend Subutai for this, but I think you're speaking with too much authority; feel free to prove me wrong. I think that the accusations against them are severe enough without having to embellish them.

      You're saying that "By their own admission, they didn't work on the game." That's actually the opposite of what they claimed: they claimed that they worked hard (or "hard") on the game whilst asking for financing. You said that the Kickstarter funds shouldn't have been used to seek further funding in the first place... and I suspect you're correct. However, that's not the same as "they didn't work on it at all". Part of me would get a visceral thrill if you could link me an implicit admission of theirs that validates what you say... but it would make me even sadder.

      Other people (a small minority) are saying that, seeing as they made an honest effort, re-funds aren't necessary for them. I can understand why they're saying that... however, not only isn't Kickstarter about "honest effort", but in this case (let me get the bighorn for that one)
      WE HAVE NO WAY TO BE SURE THAT THE EFFORT WAS HONEST IN THE FIRST PLACE.
      In fact, we have been given reason to suspect the opposite. If their effort was as honest as the information they have been giving us, then it's not honest at all.
      Let's recount, shall we?

      We were promised a game. A game that can pit player against player, that can emulate swordsmanship realistically, and that can be expanded upon to make more wonderful games based on it. The delivered product satisfies NONE of those requirements.
      We were also promised that the game would eventually be released as open-source; see NS's comment linked at the end. To date, not a lick of that has been released.
      Here's what we did get:
      1) A furious back-pedalling, and a desperate effort by mr Stephenson to convice us (and himself) that the "technical prototype" they delivered is the only thing that they owed us. (which is BS, as others have repeatedly pointed out)
      2) Several patronising explanations, that failed to apologise for anything except the most tangential and inconsequential "Teehee!" mistakes.
      3) Intense efforts at damage control, not of us the backers, but of mr Stephenson and Subutai corporation.
      4) Claims of miscommunication, which make me think "Oh, so he just doesn't know how to express himself properly. That's reasonable. It's not like he's, y'know, a best-selling novelist or something."
      None of those really counts as "honest", now, does it?

      Personally, I'm feeling as if the people who are writing the updates are trying to ensure a maximum benefit for themselves, instead of mutual benefit. That makes me want to reciprocate. If they're behaving as if I'm an opponent, then I'll fight them.

      In an ideal world, they would have already apologised sincerely (as opposed to insincerely), they would have released the source code, together with a spreadsheet that showed where each dollar was spent and what the mistakes they made were, and they would have already wracked their brains to think of ways to make it up to their backers. Stuff like, "Choose one of the following! Hard-back copy of a future NS novel? Refund? The full game if/when it's ever made? Limited tech support for the source code if you decide to develop it further?" 3 of those are things, *off the top of my head*, that could have placated backers without the need for a re-fund.

      Overall, the saddest thing is, I can't shake the feeling that another game designer could have made a game that was both fun and technically innovating with the same budget. A game about 3-D stick figures on hoverboards facing each other with light-sabers. Or a "How to learn swordsmanship" tutorial, that would merely evaluate the effectiveness of cuts against immobile targets. Or, hell, a more realistic version of Fruit Ninja!

      https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/260688528/clang/posts/604023…

    39. RandomTiger on September 22, 2014

      Please release source code and assets under an open license. That would make up for it in my mind and negate the need to consider asking for a refund.

      I understand that is not as simple as it sounds and any thing not owned by Subutai Corporation cannot be included but I still think its a fair settlement with backers and may help other developers understand and contribute to the area you have been studying especially if you can provide additional reports into what you did and why.

    40. Missing avatar

      Roger Macdonald on September 22, 2014

      Appreciated your efforts. Wish I had gotten my promised T-shirt for my $100 donation. Feels a little troubling CLANG couldn't follow though on that.

    41. Missing avatar

      Andrew Kasurak on September 22, 2014

      I'm glad you guys tried. The fail is sad, but dev is hard and never guaranteed. However, I agree with Bogus, release the source code, let us judge what is fun, and what can be done.

    42. Missing avatar

      Bogus on September 21, 2014

      Release the source code. Failures happen, I can accept not getting my backer rewards (and no, a simplistic demo is not the same thing as "two copies of the game, concept art and a fighting manual") but you need to do what you can to make things right.

      I backed CLANG because fighting games are boring and I'd like a better one. The Subotai team tried, and was obviously unable to make it happen. By your own admission there aren't any for-profit companies interested in picking this up; it's over, and this very public failure is going to hamper any team members' attempts to fund a successor project. CLANG is as dead as a decapitated 12th century knight. Again, I understand all that and I'm not demanding a refund. But maybe someone else out there will be able to do a better job with it, and that should be the true legacy of this project. The framework that launches a thousand fighting games that Stephenson talked about in the videos, not a forgotten prototype and a bunch of angry backers.

    43. Missing avatar

      Zarlan on September 21, 2014

      @clumsyandshy
      Kickstarter doesn't do donations.
      When you make a project on Kickstarter, you are making a legally binding contract with all of your backers (NOT donators), that you will make an honest effort to create the product that your project is about and that you will deliver the pledge rewards that you offer.

      Subutai have not created the product that they were supposed to make and they have clearly stated that they never even intended to ...and, aside from the T-shirts and maybe a few PDFs, they have not delivered ANY of the pledge rewards. Not even the 10$ level one.

      If you think I am talking bullshit, please read the Kickstarter Terms of Service. (or the Kickstarter FAQ, even)

      We gave money in accordance with a legal contract.
      Subutai have not honoured their part of said contract.
      Subutai claimed, in said contract, that they would do certain things ...things they have admitted to never having even intended to.
      As such, they are not only in breach of contract, but also guilty of fraud.

    44. Missing avatar

      Zarlan on September 21, 2014

      @B.J. West
      They tried? They have clearly stated, in previous updates, that they never did.

      @patterns
      "For those that cite 50K on smaller teams with more ambitious outcomes, ask yourself if these might be the exception rather than the norm."

      It is the norm.
      At least for any project, where the creators have asked experienced people what they can expect (or where they are experienced), which is the least you could have expected from a project that has Neal Stephenson at the head.

    45. Missing avatar

      Zarlan on September 21, 2014

      @Barry Guertin
      "Not only do I not want a refund. I would be happy to help absorb some of the losses suffered by individuals."

      Oh really?
      Well then YOU refund every backer that wants a refund!

      "I am good thanks for the honesty update."

      They claimed that they delivered the promised pledge rewards.
      AS YOU CONFIRM, that is a blatant, flat out lie!
      T-shirts have been delivered, but aside from that... pretty much nothing.
      ...and while Subutai promised to make a game, they not only haven't made it, but they have admitted to never even having TRIED OR INTENDED to actually make it!
      How you can sit there and claim that they made a good job, and that they have been honest, is beyond me.

    46. clumsyandshy on September 21, 2014

      Wow, actually allowing some backers to have refunds must be a baaad idea! Seems there are a lot of shameless people now wanting to get back what they DONATED! People just never cease to amaze.

    47. Missing avatar

      Diaboros on September 21, 2014

      Requesting a refund.

    48. Missing avatar

      Patrick Dugan
      Superbacker
      on September 21, 2014

      I would like a refund if possible, especially since I bought a controller that is good for nothing now.

    49. vladtempest on September 21, 2014

      Another refund request. I was waiting for information on what's going on with this kickstarter. Now that it's definitely confirmed nothing more is happening I'd like a refund as well.

    50. Missing avatar

      興怡 on September 20, 2014

      The chief enemy of creativity is good sense -Picasso
      For something genuinely new to be realized, what does it take? 500K? 1 yr? what? I don't know, and that's why it was a risk when I pledged support. For those that cite 50K on smaller teams with more ambitious outcomes, ask yourself if these might be the exception rather than the norm. A team with dev, QA, BA, and artist will not survive on 50K unless there is a lot of donated time taking place.
      So, thank you Neal and team and your collaborators who put their careers on hiatus to work on Clang. Thank you for trying to create something new.