Use this space to cheer the creator along, ask questions, and talk to your fellow backers. Please remember to be respectful and considerate. Thanks!
This comment has been removed by Kickstarter.
I actually don't want 22cans to abandon this or expect a refund, I do however as a backer expect a finished PC game (as 22cans are still in business), and at this stage I'd settle for a decent single player finished game (let alone multi-player).
As it stands, without the game being finished this must stand as one of the most disastrous video game kickstarters (especially considering the amount of money raised from backers!).
Fortunately it hasn't dented my enthusiasm for kickstarter, and at the moment (May 2015) there as some great video game kickstarter campaigns being done :)
Just a quick note on my quest for a refund. As Avalanche says, 22cans are completely ignoring these comments, so I ended up raising a ticket on their support system, though that hasn't got me much further. I've had two replies stating that a refund isn't possibly because the game is still in "Early Access" and is still being worked on, and wow, hold on to yer knickers, we have all these great new features "coming soon". It's been about month since the last reply.
@ Allan MacKenzie-Graham
Yes. With the fallout from Backers, Peter's view that Kickstarter is at least partly to blame ( http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/molyneux-kickstarter-is-a-destructive-force-that-damaged-godus-1275205 ) and his entire way of working being completely incompatible, then any return might have to be a finished game.
Which seems to largely defeat the purpose of Kickstarter :o) And even then, I'm not sure how many would back.
I find it funny that PM even considers the POSSIBILITY of using kickstarter again.
I went through a similar situation with Frontier Developments posting on the Elite: Dangerous Kickstarter and was very unhappy about it. Nice person, but toeing the company line as you said of George. In no way engaging, or answering questions outside of acceptable statements. I went on and on about it here https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous/comments… , but you're right, it's the company that sets the person up and it's the company that deserves the anger. It really does bug me though, as the company is setting up angry Backers to be angry at the nice person. And Backers can't win. Backers can be nice back and get *nowhere* or be angry and risk the company sending out higher level press releases saying how staff who are trying to help are being abused or some such. At least gaining sympathy for the company and opening up Backers to accusations of 'entitlement' and the like.
That aside :o) , yes, Kickstarter was just completely wrong for Peter Molyneux, but even then in this article: http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/molyneux-kickstarter-is-a-destructive-force-that-damaged-godus-1275205 , Peter tried to make out that it was somehow Kickstarter's fault.
Populous seemed to get very lost in all of this. Somehow I feel it should have been a lot simpler, but then, I'm not sure how much any of us figured the effect 'mobile' would have. A shame indeed.
As for you possible refund, I'm not sure if you've already realised that 22cans aren't replying here:
No progress at all. Frankly, I kinda liked George. I realize he had to toe the company line. I'm still angry at 22cans, though.
After reading the article at Rock, Paper, Shotgun I feel like I understand what happened better. Peter Molyneux had no business going to Kickstarter. He should have just gone with a publisher and be done with it. Instead he went with thousands of backers and now no one is happy. Damn shame. This could have been a great game. If I had known that this would be a pay-to-win game (or bad port of one) I never would have given a dime (or 10p :).
@ Dead Cat
I did wonder why Jack wasn't mentioned in the list of people working on Godus. Very interesting article.
Thanks for the link.
another one gone. Claims it was "just time". More suspicion of game being spaced.
No actual evidence of PC game ever having been worked on, much less this "PC sprint" that keeps being trotted out only to be filled with mobile content and mobile bug fixes with an occasional port to PC.
What you said seems fair and reasonable to me. Although personally I was very unhappy, I have no problem at all with people enjoying Godus or those who see a lot of potential and are happy to see where development goes.
I think Peter deserves a lot of the criticisms, but if you're referring to the Rock, Paper, Shotgun article in particular, then I thought it was a bad article. Not because of the intent to hold people accountable (which I am very much in favour of), but because of poor execution. That article, then became a bit of a focus of attention and reference. But you may be referring to other things. I do agree that some like to be angry and some tend to rage out of all proportion, but I've not been following things on Steam or Godus' forum to know if that's been happening there. Generally I've found comments section of articles and the Comments here to have been mostly reasonable, but having said that, there have been some angry Comments. Like you said though, I think that's understandable.
It may not have been the focus of your Comment, but as an aside, I think the Rock, Paper, Shotgun article split opinions and ended up doing more harm than good.
I've just been reading your exchanges with George from way back in June/July of last year and was shaking my head at 22cans' replies/attitude. A belated thanks from me for going to the trouble of posting the exchanges.
So after more than nine months, have you made any progress with a refund?
Cheers, Warehare. I can see where you are coming from. Godus had a lot of promise, heck, the art direction is beautiful and inspired, but by structuring the game around microtransactions it was ruined. As such, I feel that it was misrepresented in the kickstarter. Try Populous on gog.com and see how much better this game could have been without having to click on every damn abode every few minutes.
It's not going to be a popular comment because the internet does like to be angry (I was kind of disgusted by how badly Peter was treated recently), but from a purely personal point of view I am more than happy with this project. I have spent more time messing about with the alpha versions and the ios app (without paying any extra money) than I have with many finished games I have played and got a look at what happens behind the scenes (misteps and all) as well. I feel like I have had more than my money's worth from this project. Anything more is a bonus. Personally I have no interest in multiplayer so the new direction isn't too interesting to me but we shall see.
Just to be clear. I'm not saying other people shouldn't be angry. I get why people would be and I won't try and stop anyone, but I just wanted to say that there are backers out there who don't feel cheated. It can't hurt to put a positive comment out there every now and again. I'm still interested in what comes out of 22cans next.
I'm not sure if people are doing anything more, but I thought I should say that commenting here asking for a refund isn't going to get anywhere. 22cans haven't replied here in over four months ( https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/22cans/comments ). Even direct contact with 22cans hasn't yielded anything as far as I am aware.
I can understand people voicing their unhappiness here, I just thought I'd say that if you are serious about getting a refund, then asking here for a refund wont be enough.
Guys just admit GODUS is a total flop and we as your investors/backers should be heard & acknowledged not brushed aside like common consumers without all of us this game WOULDN'T have happened!
@ Johan Munkestam
While I am in no way for it, "To force it via your credit card company is tantamount to fraud." to some one fraud to refund from another is called justice.
@ Johan Munkestam
It seems very much that Consumer Laws support it. And personally, I didn't force it, I put in a request with my arguments and they made the decision.
My previous post ( https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/22cans/project-godus/comments… ) went into some more of my reasoning, Including specifically the issue of class actions suits.
As for the use of the word 'fraud', how is talking about 'class action suits' silly, but saying 'fraud' is okay? How is it even fraudulent?
Be dis appointed, be upset, be angry, pledge to never buy a game again or support another Kickstarter - but talking about class action suits and refunds in this case is silly. There is no support for it. To force it via your credit card company is tantamount to fraud.
I think 'class action suit' is a misunderstanding of how a refund would likely be obtained. Ideally, 22cans would have engaged to resolve the issue, but since that hasn't happened, some people are talking about taking matters to the next level, which I think is generally the next option when a company refuses to discuss it. But I think it would be very unlikely to manifest as a 'class action suit'. I think that's more of a general term that people seem to use. Also, I'm not sure how many people will actually go ahead with anything more, but I see no harm in talking about it.
I think at least some people have a different view of Kickstarter Projects than you do. That's not meant to be snarky or anything, it's just that the Comments here have talked a fair amount about what successfully funded Projects are required to do and it seems that the situation is rather in Backer's favour (here in the U.K. at least). I get that quite a few people have a more relaxed attitude to Backing, but in the case of Godus, I think the Comments here highlight a lot of the issues, which tipped the balance to wanting a refund. So I don't think it's ridiculous.
Slightly more specifically though, personally, it wasn't that I dreamed up a game: 22cans came here and described something that is now very different. On top of that, it seems that it was known that the game would be very different from that described, as that's the way Peter Molyneux works. But this, and many other issues, weren't talked about during the Campaign.
The complaining and talk about class action suits is ridiculous. The game was not what you dreamed up but you really cannot with any legitimacy say that the creators did not make a bona-fide attempt to fulfill the original promise.
I am not a fan of the game and also expected something else, but I did not pre-order a almost finished game which was then maliciously changed at the last second, I funded the developement of a game which sounded promising. And I got to play that game, even if it did not live up to my interpretation of the promises.
I've just heard back: The Chargeback was sucessful.
@ Larry Barriere
What you say are a *few* things that have been happening very recently. I can't speak for everyone, but there are the many, many other issues over the past 26 months that people are very unhappy with. And I think they are the reasons why people are asking for a refund. Since those requests have been refused or denied or ignored, then people are talking about other options to try and still get their money back.
class action? Refund?
They've been posting daily updates (if you join the opt in updates). The next main line update is this week if i recall. They're adding story lines to the game as well as the combat, currently.
I want a refund. That lacking, I would be happy to join a class-action.
< curses> Correction...
@ John A
"The Estimated Delivery Date listed on each reward is not a promise to fulfill by that date, but is merely an estimate of when the Project Creator hopes to fulfill by."
No problem. I've become pretty interested in the inner workings of Kickstarter and trying to figure out exactly what it is. As in, is it a still essentially a sale of goods or service, the same as anything else, albeit with a later delivery date. I found the link from Toby Heagerty very interesting.
Aside from that, yes, it does seem as though a lot has been withheld/exaggerated. if some of the things known now had come out during the Campaign, then I think it would have turned out very differently.
For my part, I've still not heard anything back from 22cans. The Chargeback plan has a wrinkle, in that I'm not sure if the concept of '120 days after finding out there is a problem', is seen as starting from the failed delivery date, which was 17 months ago. It's not exactly clear. But then again, the delivery date is *very* much understood to be an estimate, not a guarantee ( https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use… ). So I don't know if that falls into a loophole, or inconsistent advice, or... I have no idea. I'm awaiting some more information, but I may submit the claim and let someone who makes the *actual* decision just decide.
@ Toby Heagerty
Really interesting link. Thanks for that. And thanks to Mindless as well.
Courtesy of Mindless from the Godus ProBoards! The only impartial Godus forum which allows free speech.
Gamasutra: Understanding Your Kickstarter Liabilities
Here is something interesting that's just popped up. Taking a look directly at the difficulties in legal interpretation of kickstarter rules, the law as it stands, with everything framed around the peter molyneux and godus situation as a case in point.
The article author (Dan Rogers, who is licenced to practice law in the state of california, and the eastern federal district court) looks at the following topics of interest:
DETERMINING GIFTS AND PURCHASES
BACKERS ARE NOT INVESTORS
MISSING THE TARGET
CONSUMERS AND INDUSTRY PROFESSIONALS
NO SHELTER IN A STORM
Most of his topics lead onto other linked articles (refer to the citations at the bottom of the page)
As a backer of a game in Peter Molyneuxs' experience I love seeing a new update with a team of unknown working to scramble in Peter's wake. Given that refunds are not allowed, and given that i supported the project in hopes if really having a working game, I hope this team has the dedication to push forward and design exactly what we want on the PC.
Still looking forward to it ! Keep up the good work, don't give up !
And yes, I'd rather you guys take your time and deliver a finished, polished and fun to play product rather than rush it and call it a day just to meet some deadlines.
@Avalanche that makes for interesting reading, appreciate the info.... There are certainly points where 22cans have not been entirely honest ( licenses for mobile versions, for example ), it's just a shame the backers forum is no longer there, though the cynical part of me thinks that's deliberate.
FWIW, I've replied back pointing out that their ability to offer a refund isn't dependant on the state of the game, and that the recent interviews would indicate that they haven't done right by any of us.... Back to waiting for a reply....
@ John A (and All really)
In my humble opinion, a summary of the Misrepresentation Act 1967 seems to very much apply:
It includes "entering into a contract", which a Kickstarter very much is (first paragraph of https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012#fundraising_and_commerce ).
I cannot say what 22cans have *actually* done, but there are provisions in the Act that include:
"A fraudulent misrepresentation occurs when someone makes a statement that -
- they know is untrue, or,
- they make without believing it is true, or,
- they make recklessly"
Ultimately, I would encourage everyone to read and make up their own minds, but *I* think there is a very good case to be made against 22cans. I commented on some things earlier, with respect to the Risks and Challenges section:
But I feel that even just saying the game would be done in 9 months, but now reiterating in the reply you received, that "the average development for video games can last for up to 4 years" ties in with what Peter Molyneux has said he's known for *years*: that the game had no chance at being made in 9 months.
I would also add, that it's not that they *can't* offer a refund, it's that they don't *want* to. It's not as if their hands are tied or anything, They just don't want to give the money back. My view is, that whatever 22cans *intend* to do is immaterial, as what they have *already* done is there for all to see and decide.
Anyway, thanks for keeping us updated. I've still heard nothing back, so I'm putting together the details to claim a Chargeback. Ultimately the Card Issuer decides all of this. I'll keep people updated.
(U.K. advice for getting a Chargeback: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/problem/how-do-i-use-chargeback I did it once for Elite Dangerous and succeeded. Chargeback also applies to Debit Cards and is available in the U.S, but things can vary. I think it's worth looking at local laws, one's card issuer and the like, to see if the money can be claimed back. If one wishes to do so, obviously.)
No one will be surprised, but my request for a refund has been denied:
Unfortunately, we can't offer a refund as Godus is very much still in development. We understand that you're unhappy with Godus how it currently stands, but we're aiming to improve on this over the next coming months by implementing Combat and Multiplayer, as well as meeting our Kickstarter rewards.
We also understand that Godus has been in development for over 2 years which may seem like a very long time, but the average development for video games can last for up to 4 years. We must ask for your continued patience and support during this lengthy development.
The 22cans Team
Looks like we must wait for another couple of years before they call it day and admit it's a failure....
@Jared - Nope, nothing. I'm sure the excuse is that all will be provided once the game is officially released, but considering how long it's been in development, and there doesn't appear to be an end in sight, the chances of that happening are fairly remote.
FWIW, I've had no response from 22cans via their ticketing system after two weeks and mulitple updates, nor Twitter. They're either ignoring me because I've quite plainly asked for a refund, or their support mechanism really does suck.
So no one received any codes for any of those 4 dlc yet? Im not the only one? No one has their unlock codes for any of these?
2. unlock code for an exclusive GODUS god power.
3.exclusive Godus Wishing Well
@ John A [ https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/22cans/project-godus/comments… ]
Ah, yes, that explains some things. I looked at their support pages a little while ago, but didn't notice that it had jumped domains to Zendesk. I would say a good idea to screen shot everything. Often the way with these things is that leaving a company to get around to dealing with a request/complaint, just leads to some tickets getting closed and then being 'pruned', or 'tidied', or some removals due to 'transferring support requests to a different format' or some such. Whereas they are in reality inconvenient and just deleted.
@ Sam Van Tilburgh (and John A)
I've still not heard anything from my second request. The first was the Copy and Paste ( https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/22cans/project-godus/comments… ), but since that in no way answered my question, they've now gone silent. Like you said John A, they're hoping they can just ignore it. They may well claim lack of communication resources, but I'm going with them just hoping it will go away.
I think I'll go the route of a Chargeback ( http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/problem/how-do-i-use-chargeback ). My credit card people dealt with it regarding Elite Dangerous in about a week, with no problems. And that was over Christmas, but that's not an option for everyone, Then I'll still contact Trading Standards if successful.
Rewards are completely up in the air as far as I'm concerned. I tried to find the interview where Peter Molyneux is asked if all rewards will be fufilled and he replies by saying they'll certainly try, but I can't find it. He was pushed, but still didn't commit. It could be many months before each specific Reward is officially cancelled, but my guess is, as more time passes the Rewards will just be left to fade, with nothing more said. Of course, each Reward could be met, one by one, but I doubt that will happen.
(Kickstarter is playing up at the moment, so I've no idea if this will post.)
@Sam wouldn't hold your breath, I opened a support ticket two weeks ago today, and it's still sat there, untouched. Think they're hoping if they ignore such requests long enough, they'll go away.
Still waiting for a reply on my email to support regarding a refund.
The whole point of the acorn was a DLC that Peter promised because he previously broke promises about acorns. If he breaks a promise about this one... He lied about the Fable acorn!
Good luck with that Jared.
Most likely you'll never get those rewards. This is a scam and I don't think 22cans staff even reads these comments anymore. Just read comments at any point in the time and check it out for yourself.
Hello, what is the status of these rewards I am missing?
3.exclusive Godus Wishing Well
4.unlock code for an exclusive GODUS god power.
@Avalanche - Indeed, they're using Zendesk, a web based help desk system. I suppose the only advantage, is that everything is recorded, and they can't claim something has gone astray ( though it wouldn't prevent them deleting tickets; a reason why I've been screen shooting everything.... ). I've given them until Wednesday to respond, which is two weeks after I opened the ticket. After that, I'll be progressing things via CAB / Trading Standards....
@ Shawn Jones [ from https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/22cans/project-godus/comments… ]
Yeah, no apologies necessary. The domain thing was just a bit weird for me and I didn't want people going to the wrong place :o)
@ OJ Stone [ from https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/22cans/project-godus/comments… ]
I think I get that people see Kickstarter differently to others, but I do wish there was a shift away from seeing Projects in such a manner as yourself. That's not meant to be rude, it's just that in the depths of Kickstarter is a contract and I really don't think that it involves, in *any* way; 'giving money away'; being a 'venture' or another word that often crops up; 'investment'. That isn't what Kickstarter is. It *is* a commonly held view though and kind of the promoted atmosphere. I wish the reality of what happens underneath was more apparent. A contract is formed and seems very much to be enforceable, but is hidden until things go wrong. Sometimes it remains hidden even *after* things go wrong.
That aside, in *no* way am I saying you must therefore be upset or annoyed :o) Just that, if a game hypes itself, but doesn't deliver what it said it would, then the contract is broken. Again, though, a fair number (a huge number?) of people don't see it that way.
So no word back to you from 22cans direct.
I replied to the Copy and Paste I included below [ https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/22cans/project-godus/comments… ], but so far have had nothing further back. Next I'll try firstname.lastname@example.org and email@example.com and see where that gets me.
Just curious: is opening a ticket different to emailing 22cans? Like a web based thing or...?
Yeah... that *is* hopeful ;oP
Seriously, I'd like it to be so, but the problem I have is *everything* else.
@ Anyone who may be interested :o)
Some very useful information can be found here: http://pastebin.com/UHsBKjgY
they've been posting live streams on twitch of development on Godus. Sounds like there was a huge shift and it's getting back on track for the PC version. here's hoping!
@Avalanche / Sydena - Interesting that you received a reply via KS, the support ticket I opened on 22cans is still sat there without a response. I've just updated it, again re-iterating my request for a full refund.
FWIW, I find it quite insulting that "Peter" seems to be quite proud of the mobile he's inflicted on everyone, bearing in mind that it's as far from the promised version as it's possible to get....
Yeah Peter has really shifted the paradigm with such classics as the entirely mediocre Fable, the over hyped Black & White, who can forget the ground breaking The Movies? He made 3 decent games along time ago and since then has done nothing but have overblown ideas and make promises that he doesn't bother to fulfil. This time, instead of disappointing a publisher with his failure to do the job he said he'd do, he's done it with our money.
If there hadn't been a back lash the last few weeks, Godus would have been wound down. I'm still skeptical that any of the promised progress will actually happen.
@OJ - if by "paradigm shifting games" you mean using the money supplied by Kickstarter backers to fund the development of free-to-play mobile games, that's a shift in paradigm I can live without.