by Richard Thomas
Could we possibly get a character creation possibility for ancient lost like the khara and okuma? I know they're super extinct but a pre-history game might be fun with direwolves, khara, and humans who are just becoming civilized. Also I agree with some others that the gifts seem highly unbalanced, some seem to get super powerful gifts at lower levels wheras some like the ceilican only get the riot incitement, while balam can rip hearts out of people's chests. at rank 5 shouldn't they get something a little more significant? Maybe add a few more gifts to the ranks to add a little variety too since many seem to only have 1-2 gifts above level 3.
While rather belated, I do find myself missing some really old Rokea components for W20, notably the beefier but less agile shark form from first edition. For, this reason, and because it doesn't seem like it fits to give tigers and pointers a small, quick stat line, since they're the two largest species that produce weresharks. On a similar note, if you're going to penalize the goblin sharks anything for their capacity to enter the Umbra, it should probably be Dexterity. They can get at least as large as most other sharks that Rokea come from, if not larger (3.6 to 4.2 m, possibly more). They just seem to be a bit lazy and not so quick as their better-lit counterparts.
Gladius and Glabrus probably don't need so extensive an adjustment, unless Rokea still end up frozen in a shape after spending too long out of Sea (I had no attachment to that bit of lore, incidentally).
On page 102, the last paragraph of the memory theft rite is talking about the bears. It seems to be in the wrong place.
They are at the end of the book
I have one question... I open my CB PDF and I didn´t see the list with the backers names. ¿did you see them?
Page 48, "Hermaphrodites and Hyenas" sidebar: in a strict sense, hyenas are not part of the same taxonomic Family as cats, Felidae, which is what the text implies. Feliform carnivores they are, but not so closely, occupying the Suborder Feliformia, with some dispute as to whether there should be a Superfamily Ailurodea instead.
• Withering Stare (Level Five) — This Gift lets a werecat kill with a glance, causing victims to die in agonized convulsions.
System: The player spends a Gnosis point and rolls Rage. The difficulty is the victim’s Willpower, and each success inflicts one level of aggravated damage.
• Feed the Gods (Level Five) — The Balam can rip out the heart of an enemy from a distance, pull it to his hand, and consume it in a burst of fire.
System: The player rolls Gnosis (difficulty 7) and spends two Gnosis points. If the werejaguar’s successes amount to at least twice the target’s dots in Stamina, the target dies. Supernatural toughness (such as a vampire’s Fortitude) subtracts two successes for every dot or level of protection.
Both are level 5 gifts but the first one is way more powerful than the second one (not only most people might have willpower lower than 7, you still get some level of success on scoring less hits while the second must spend way more gnosis points and you need TWICE the target's stamina to kill him. And if you score less sucess, you gain nothing.
Sure, I understand as one being more "gamble-ish" and the other one the safe route, but scoring twice the target's stamina is rather hard to pull off and withering stare can still be soaked, wich means that even a lot of success might not score any damage. So I was just wondering if this could be somehow changed?
Chuffed to bits you fine folks put the full requested name down for my backers reward, it was a long one so I wasn't 100% you would, but ole Nic kind of deserved it in my mind, a Khan Warder for the Sept of the Green.
He was one of the standout characters ever played in all of my games over the years. (I'm the ST 99% of the time, it was my gift to the player who ran him.)
So cheers for that. :)
This may not be the place for this but I was kind of hoping that this book would fix an issue that I have been having. In the Nuwisha breed book there is a rank 5 gift called Umbral Target. Gift basically says that the target of the gift can be thrown into any part of the umbra the nuwisha wishes. I have been told by many people that this gift is extremely overpowered.
I think more gifts should be added as well, alot of them seem to be as the ________ gift _______ which seems a little repetitive, are they really that ununique?
I would have asked about this earlier, but the Zhong Lung info was not on the Google Doc, so I did not realize that the Zhong Lung were getting their stream gifts reprinted.
I also forgot to mention the Gumgan also were given the ability to buy umbral related gifts at one less xp in the Mokole breed book. Just hoping the other two streams could get some much needed attention...
Any chance the Mokole-mbembe and the Makara could get some extra stream gifts? They had the shortest list in the breed book, and then in CB do not get any mention compared to the Zhong Lung's rather extensive list, and the Gumgan not only getting to side step for free, but also the Mokole breed book gave them most of the Bunyip gifts. I worry that the other two streams have been left out in the cold (a terrible place to be for a reptile!).
Form of the Land Titan : (Typo) "Aurouchs" is written in the last sentence.
Similar issue with Archid Characteristic Tall as I presented for Behemoth earlier.
Tall*:Body mass and height doubles, +1 Stamina. Can
reach/see over obstacles more easily. +2 to Perception
when Storyteller deems appropriate due to height.
For the Mokolé.
Behemoth*: Body mass doubles, height remains same.
Stamina +1, +2 damage to Body Slam or Tackle
You may want to consider simply having it increase strength, stamina, and health, and get rid of the plus damage to Body Slam or Tackle. It just makes more sense if your mass is doubling. If you think it is too much, then give it an additional -1 to dex while in Archid.
Wings: Can fly at 20mph for 1 hour per point of Stamina,
then must rest for 8 hours. Can be combined with
Hollow Bones for longer flight.
I suggest getting rid of the rest for 8 hours. Also it doesn't differentiate if you have to rest for 8 hours if you fly for the maximum number of hours, or just part of it.
What is the normal lifespan of a Kitsune before being doubled the first time? Also does each new tail beyond the first double their normal lifespan, or do you double their modified lifespan?
You really kept the poor eyesight for the Gurahl? Bears having poor eyesight is a myth. Most bears have eyesight at least as good as humans, and some have much better.
As for their sense of smell, a bear’s sense of smell is 7 times better than a blood hound’s or 2,100 times better than a human. You might want to throw in something that doesn't reduce their difficult for scent based rolls any further than it already does, but rather that they can sort out and follow smells from a source that is hundreds of miles away.
Upon further inspection of the Mokole and Zhong Lung Gifts, I would like to better articulate and collect the following anomalies.
- The Zhong Lung have Serenity mentioned as a ZL-specific Mokole Gift under the name Harmony of the Soul, but it also seems to be a General Mokole Gift.
- The ZL Gift, The Dragon's Tongue, is an older version of the now-revised W20 version Dragon's Tongue (which needs a note about how it treats its renown-dependent variable, since Mokole don't have Cunning Renown)
- Anger of the Wani is present under both Striking and ZL lists. It only mentions its sleep drawback in the ZL version. I'm not sure that the Striking list is necessarily the best place for it.
- In the Breed Book, Thousand Secret Faces was moved to being a Shining Gift, and it seems to fit their temperament a bit better than the ZL in general.
- Shou might do well to specify that it treats Mnesis as Ancestors for the purposes of its system.
A little more for the Nuwisha gifts.
p171 - Finders Keepers - No mention of duration whatsoever. Does this last for a limited time, until a suitable lesson is taught, or the target is abandoned? I can see the fact that it interferes with spirits being able to communicate with the victim as a problem if you can tag a target and leave em marked for excessively long times. Maybe a limit to the number of targets and a season to work up a good lesson? Or a number of targets and months/moons dependent on the marker's rank?
p173 - Gift of Rage - A small issue, but one that reared its head often in previous incarnations. It might help to clarify if said rage points constitute a temporary rage rating (most likely of 5 to match the pool provided) or just the points themselves. If it gives a rating for as long as you have the points, then does that rating diminish as points are spent or is it nailed to 5 until it disappears? Can said rating be used if you somehow learn/steal a gift that rolls rage for activation or bases range of success/duration off rage?
As far as my earlier comment for a day ago goes, I have to strike my assessment of this list as being gnosis expense heavy. In retrospect (and after the effects of much sleep and proper caffeine levels) I'd say the list is pretty gnosis balanced given that Nuwisha a few levels in are probably going to have decent gnosis scores. A gift or rite to jack gnosis from other sources would still be nice (and fitting with their general disregard for the property of others).
I'll chime back in as I see more to mention, both in the Nuwisha and other sections. Kudos to both the production team and my fellow fans/proofreaders.
Just wanted to say that I am ridiculously super happy to have this! Thanks for making it. Really loving the new details on Black Tooth's rise.
For the helping out side of things, here's a few things I saw:
P. 230 (PDF 224) last paragraph on the bottom right: "A Lunar Apis might take of grim satisfaction" the word "take" was likely intended to be "talk".
P.233 (PDF 226) It was mentioned in the description of the Apis that they were very good at avoiding frenzy in ways that would shame the StarGazers. Conversely, in the "traits" section there is nothing system-wise to support this universally racial claim. In fact, it mentions that they can frenzy like the Garou. May I suggest adding a little system change there? Maybe alter the difficulty of frenzy rolls by one?
P.233 (PDF 226) - Auspices: This one is just me being picky, so I apologize for bringing this one up. "[Auspice] Apis could learn [Auspice] Garou auspice gifts implies that the Apis just happen to be included in every auspice gift deals made with spirits by the Garou for the Ahroun, Theurge and Philodoxe gifts. I understand it's a way to simplify and save space, but the wording implies background historical implications that do not seem unlikely. May be reword in ways such as to suggest taking inspiration from the auspice gifts to emulate the WereAuroch's actual gift?
More later when I have time to keep reading.
I don't think anyone mentioned it here, and I'm not sure it got seen in the main comments thread, but there's a little mix-up on the top end of the Nuwisha gift list. Either the 5th level gifts crept into the section where the 4th level gifts are or a bunch of the gifts in the 4th-5th level range got rebalanced to higher/lower levels but not actually relocated. Or, like good little Nuwisha gifts, they just reformatted the document and rearranged their order while the editor was looking to see which 1st level gift was telling fart jokes.
If space permits, I'd like to suggest Heave Ho for inclusion, as it is a particularly Nuwisha-flavored combat gift that can create a great window for escape from combat or totally befuddle an opponent who thinks they've got this one in the bag.
Another suggestion might be another persistent gift to mitigate the difficulty that having zero rage can give a shapeshifter breed when shifting forms quickly. Maybe a rank 3 or so either multiplying successes on shifting rolls or even letting one success count for the entire range of forms (one success covering Latranis to Homid shifts or vice versa).
Lastly, maybe some kind of gift, background, or rite providing a little more chance for gnosis regain to help when dealing with RAW storytellers? Not vital, but could be helpful when some campaigns have all caerns locked down and other means are really tight. For added fun it could be siphoning power from other possible problematic groups like Fae or Mages... or a chance to steal directly from opponents in combat rather than dealing damage. Risk vs Reward could be a good balance... With a list as heavy on gnosis expenditure and the apparent loss of Coyote's Favor (I think that's the name. The 6 pointer that waives gnosis expense for gift use directly involved with a prank) it can get mightly costly to engage in your one changer war for comedy and re-education.
@Elijah: Try it. You might be pleasantly surprised.
Can you please, please, PLEASE add 'Fiddle Fish' for the Gurahl. Thanks.
Why is the download link charging me for Blood-Dimmed Tides and Rage Across the Amazon? I know the message said to email the download site, but I can't imagine emailing them "Hi, I don't think I should have to pay for this" would go over well.
Another vital issue: the timeline of the Okuma entry is rather sketchy. It stated that the Okuma had a rivalry with the Gui Ren before the Wan Xian had become cursed and became the Gui Ren, which only happened after the Okuma had died in the War of Shame.
Firstly, thanks for the files. They made a great addition to my digital WoD collections.
Second, I realize now that I probably should have jacked up my pledge significantly. If I had it to do all over again, I'd shoot for "Feral Lore Master". It would have been very cool to add the other Changing Breeds PDF's to my collections.
BTW, it lists nine Changing Breeds - but weren't there eleven total?
I know it's been addressed by others, but the art in the Apis section is very questionable. A WereBison might be an interesting variation on the Apis, and perhaps a way of bringing Apis to the present, but the art is not representative of the Aurochs that the breed derives from.
Page 25 second column, fifth paragraph: it says 'Spanish Conquistadors' should be 'Spanish Conquistadores', the correct plural for it in spanish (and portuguese)
Page 102, at the end of the description of the Corax's "Rite of Memory Theft" is this paragraph:
Of all Gaia’s children, none are more attuned to the
cycle of life, death, and rebirth than her ursine brood,
and they alone were trusted with Her greatest gift — the
power over life and death itself.
Suggested Fixes: Either remove paragraph, or explain why it relates to the Corax erasing the memory of another Corax.
For the Lost Breeds sections I was wondering if they could be beefed up a bit. I mean there's talk about blood rituals in the Camazotz section then the only thing we have is the silencing doll. For the khara could we get some stats as well in case someone does a full revival plot or a prehistory game. I'd like some more fetishes and stuff to if possible especially from the Lost if possible. Or an addon book later dealing with each as a whole such as Lost Tribes Breed Book kinda like the other breed books printed in the original.
Okay one thing...there are no Jaguar in Africa. So for "Ambush" p.54 you should probably change it to a Leopard spirit teaching the Ajaba that gift :)
Hugely Important: The book still doesn't lay out how the Fera regain Rage, for those who have it.
Some typos to note.
page 64 (57 in the pdf reader): Viskr Faction spelled Viskir.
page 140: Piasa Varna spelled Paisa.
page 142: Astral Umbra referred to as High Umbra, a term that does not exist in Werewolf cosmology.
page 145: Nam Hsia Auspice misspelled as Nam Hsai.
page 272: Boli Zousizhe misspelled as Boli Zouhisze.
page 232: wereaurochs misspelled as wereauroch. Seems to be a confusion between singular and plural (aurochs is both singular and plural).
A word on transliteration of Chinese languages:
Chi'ih, as in the Gift Chi'ih Ming, is not proper use of Wade-Giles. Aspiration marks used in that transliteration style are always placed between the initial consonant and the final (vowel), for instance marking the difference between chi (pinyin ji) and ch'i (qi in pinyin), or chong (zhong in pinyin) and ch'ong (chong in pinyin). The practice of putting a similar-looking mark between syllables is used in Hanyu Pinyin to prevent mistaken reading of ambiguous pronunciation, with the classic case being the distinction between the two-character Xi'an and the single-character reading of Xian.
On the subject of k'iu-lung, use of k' in Wade-Giles is extremely archaic. That sound shifted to ch' (pinyin q) some time around the nineteenth century. While I can appreciate that the Middle Dragons have some old memories, I think that the text ought to be written for clarity of reading, which means using more contemporary transliteration methods, to the extent that Wade-Giles could be considered as such.
@Chris: Hopefully you mean "When is the M20 KickStarter going to get started?" as it's been well into development for months. The Schedule still says it's coming, but with the NWoD Demon KS taking up the November slot and KS rules saying they can't do more than one at a time, I'd have to say that the KS won't be soon, but PERHAPS this is a time when they'll release the book first and then do the KS later? (Unlikely, but you never know.) It's probably just getting pushed back. Keep an eye on the weekly meeting notes at http://theonyxpath.com/ and for updates as well as the Facebook group at https://www.facebook.com/mage20 too, if you're not there already. :)
LOVE the interactive sheet in the background. Can't wait till it's finished.
When is the Mage 20th going to be started? Both the Changing Breeds and Werewolf 20 look great, I can't wait to get the actual books.
Slight Tweaks to the Camazotz artwork might look cooler. And yeah Bisons are not Aurochs. and the Minotaur artwork looks kinda...lackluster.
Page 243 mistype. 7th line down, first column change hen to When
Uh yeah, that Apis art is not right at all. Most of the artwork in this book is wonderful but the Apis art depicts bison, not aurochs.
The Camazotz art is also not the best, what with the wings that are nothing like bat wings (fingers growing out of elbows!) but still resembles a bat instead of some other animal.
Just a little lay-out quirk, but p.167 has a break in the middle of "Coyote" in the same line due to the word-wrapping that doesn't need to be there.
"Coy- ote teaches through trickery" Unless that's supposed to be there?
On the one hand, I understand that this book can't possibly commission new art in time for the Nov.14 deadline.
On the other hand, the Apis art is seriously depicting the wrong animal entirely.
It's not my only problem with the art (the Jim Balent Nuwisha, the Animorphs Camazotz, the Ao with bits of the pencil sketch peeking through), but it's a problem that I'm comfortable saying is more than just a subjective difference in taste. It's factually wrong.
As Michael Roberts said, Apis don't look like Aurochs.
Also, one of the reasons for art illlustrating the forms is to give an idea of relative heights. Apparently Apis would be the same height in all forms (or maybe smaller in Minotaur ^^ )
Page 242 (Grondr History): ...warp their minds. hen a spirit attempted to posses one of their Kinfolk, the wereboar would not only repel the invader, but tear it apart in the process.
Missed the W in when.
I can usually overlook things like this, but the Apis art depicting them as bison rather than aurochs is really weird. Is that the intent? And if not, is it too late to get replacement art?
Typo "Chnging" on page 231, right column: "By far the most controversial, however, were those wereaurochs who believed that Gaia had given them responsibility for breeding, advising, and educating their fellow Chnging Breeds."
@Andreas: You can stack Behemoth, so I'd just expect someone who wanted proportionate growth as height increases to take Behemoth twice. Otherwise, the Archid form would be leaner as it grew taller. I'd prefer it this way, to prevent some of the wacky Godzilla forms that I've seen in the past.
Really appreciate it. Thanks so much!
Two alteration requests:
Firstly, it makes little sense for the often solitary Bastet to have Lick Wounds, a gift that is exactly equivalent to Mother's Touch - a Bastet without a pride needs to be able to heal itself far more than some hypothetical best buddy. If the gift isn't changed back to its old form of healing both oneself and others, at least let it heal only the Bastet itself rather than others, reserving the traditional Mother's Touch for Simba and perhaps the Ahadi gift list.
Secondly, it's rather hard to create a properly-proportioned Mokole. The Tall trait doubles height and weight while the Behemoth trait doubles weight only. Physics teaches that when an object doubles in dimensions, it octuples in weight if the composition stays the same (aka Square/Cube Law). A Mokole who expects to double in dimensions by taking Tall and Behemoth once is too light by half.
Got mine. Thanks!
Could I have my name, "Romi Ten-Zeniths", changed to "Romi 'Ten-Zeniths' Golan" ? My last name must have slipped by.