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Contribute to help create Beast: The Primordial, our newest New World of Darkness RPG, as a prestige, traditionally printed edition.
Contribute to help create Beast: The Primordial, our newest New World of Darkness RPG, as a prestige, traditionally printed edition.
1,623 backers pledged $116,383 to help bring this project to life.

Revised Introduction

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Hi, Rose here. ^_^

As the first part of our revision and expansion of Beast, here's the new introduction:

<Click here>

Points to note include more of a purpose to the Beast condition, Heroes being given a place in the Primordial Dream, and the revelation of what the Dream itself is.

Hope you enjoy!

Firanai, Marc Collins, and 17 more people like this update.

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    1. Missing avatar

      Sean Michael Tubridy
      Superbacker
      on June 18, 2015

      I would like to echo and reinforce the other sentiments seen here that while I've enjoyed a lot of the changes made thus far, I am not a fan of the change from the Homecoming to the Devouring. I liked the idea of the Homecoming, and the Devouring removing one's soul is... less than stellar, at least in my imagination. The work being done here is awesome, and I'm extremely excited for this game line, but that's my two cents. The Homecoming was much tastier to my palate than the Devouring is.

    2. Rose Bailey on June 17, 2015

      It's not a body-snatcher thing. In nWoD metaphysics, the soul isn't purely the seat of the self -- if you look at things like the Soulless Condition, people stay themselves without any soul at all, although they eventually run out of psychological juice. Vampires, whose sense of self is continually jeopardized by the strains on their Humanity, suffer those strains without any harm to their literal souls.*

      Beasts are still themselves once they've been Devoured. And a lot of things make more sense once they've made that choice. It's more like swapping batteries than swapping brains.

      I'll discuss the exact language with Matt, but a Beast after the Devouring is potentially on a path to self-actualization -- very much the opposite of self-loss.

      * Vampires often _talk_ about this differently. But in terms of behind-the-scenes how-it-works, they've got souls like you or me.

    3. Missing avatar

      Tab on June 17, 2015

      It needs some work, but I overall like the direction of the rewrite. It seems to be casting the Beasts as humanity's Shadow in the Jungian sense, and I like that. The change to Heroes is good too, though I really didn't have a problem with them before.

      But I hate the Devouring. Really. Hate it. If the soul of the devoured were said to merge with the monster's, that would be fine, but the text suggests the human soul is destroyed. I don't want to play Invasion of the Body Snatchers: the Game. If I'm reading it right, the change from Homecoming to Devouring has changed the story from self-understanding to destruction of the self. If that is the direction this game is going, I'm going to revoke my pledge. I do dislike it that much.

    4. Missing avatar

      Belltrap on June 15, 2015

      I really wish I could say that this revision leaves me more excited for Beast: The Primordial than before, but if I'm honest, it doesn't.
      I feel like Homecoming had significantly more emotional heft to it than Devouring does. I much prefer Homecoming to Devouring.
      Furthermore, the opening fiction preceding the Introduction makes far less sense, if the Devouring was something accepted later in life, rather than Ben having been a Beast all along.
      Thinking about it, I think that what you're experimenting with in Beast may be the root of some of the difficulties.
      Personally, I don't think a Beast's Hungers are any worse than, say, a Vampire's need to feed on blood. I'm not sure why people find Hungers so objectionable but not feeding on blood. I, personally, have no objection to the lack of an Integrity/Humanity analogue, but I feel like without it, the people who find Hungers objectionable see a vampire with the brakes torn out.
      I can't say I'm all that excited for the new angle in a Beast's purpose. I realize Beast is supposed to be a game without social splats/a social splat axis (forgive me if I'm not using the right terminology here), but its introduction leaves me feeling a little like in lieu of that, we've been given just one social splat for the whole gameline, leaving out even the choice Masquerade Vampires had between Camarilla, Sabbat, and the Anarchs.
      If I have more specific thoughts about Heroes and the Primordial Dream as I digest the Introduction, I'll add my thoughts.

    5. Xavier Aubuchon-Mendoza
      Superbacker
      on June 15, 2015

      I'm liking what I'm seeing here, it's really giving me some ideas to work with.

      One thing I'm curious about is what kinds of lessons the Primordial Dream might be trying to teach. Sure, it could be "be scared of the dark," but that seems... a bit self fulfilling.

      What if the Primordial Dream, representing the combined wisdom of humanity... represented those things which humanity hadn't become consciously aware of, yet? And it was trying to wake them up to it.

      That way you could tie Beasts in to whatever oncoming threat which the ST wanted to foreshadow and get the PCs prepared to confront. As the Beasts delved deeper into the dream, they might see it more clearly, helping to wake up the complacent herd.

      Perhaps other Beasts might hear the whispers of what is to come and decide to serve as its vanguard - tearing away the old structure to make way for something glorious (and bloody) and new.

      Other Beasts might decide to carve out their own niche in the world to be - still with their own "lessons" to teach, which they define for themselves. As they build their lairs and affect more people, that resonance bubbles through the collective subconsciousness of the world around them and starts to change things in its own manner.

      Each paradigm appeals to a different type of game, or play style.

      I'd really love to know more about what you see as the "lessons" of the Primordial Dream to be, and how successfully imparting those changes the world around the Beast (and, in a feedback loop, perhaps even affects the dream itself).

    6. Adam Krump on June 15, 2015

      @Ryan P Lowry
      That's where I'm coming from, you "just" put it more eloquently than I. Good on ya!

    7. Missing avatar

      Ryan P Lowry on June 15, 2015

      Personally I prefered the first edition in terms of Homecomings and Souls. The Devouring simply makes the Beasts seem like dream vampires, where as the Homecoming was the Beast-to-be facing their own fears and nightmares, and by facing them, becoming something far greater than they were before. Furthermore it was far more impactful to have the Beast's primordial form be their true Soul rather than a Horror. Sure the term horror sounds scary on a superficial level, but the idea that your Soul is an ancient nightmare of humanity incarnate was far more intriguing to me.

      I still love the first version though and am excited to see how this iterates as it moves forward.

    8. Missing avatar

      Robert Ogzewalla on June 15, 2015

      Lowered my pledge by. While I appreciate that Beasts were not intended to represent marginalized groups in the first place, the idea that they were was one of the driving points of my interest in the game. I am glad that has been clarified, it's simply that my desire for the game is less.

      It still looks potentially very good!

    9. Adam Krump on June 15, 2015

      Ok, so the losing of one's soul was always intended to be included? That's my only real sticking point at the moment. I'm pretty sure I love the rest. It's just.. I dunno. Losing one's soul has always been a major problem. It's why the Tremere Liches are so awful, imho. Hell, most of the other Nwod games have mechanics to keep you from losing your soul or gaining one (Vampire's Humanity, Promethean's, er, Humanity.)

    10. Jake Waltier
      Superbacker
      on June 15, 2015

      I really appreciate you responding to your fans and what they want from this project. However, I find the more defined WOD monsters are, the less scary they are and the less monstrous they seem. Giving everything an explanation and a society to be a part of makes a setting feel more like superheroes by night than horror. I'm not faced with the decision to back the game and ignore large parts of the setting, or just use the preliminary document as my source material.

    11. Richard Thomas 22-time creator on June 14, 2015

      @MidnightBlue Thanks, I appreciate where you're coming from. As Matt mentioned, he is working all this week to get the revised draft ready so everyone has plenty of time to reread and decide.

    12. MidnightBlue
      Superbacker
      on June 14, 2015

      Ummm...I think my comments were taken with an incorrect tone.

      I also don't think I've "slung accusations" or "ascribed motivations." Though if that's how it is read, I can only apologize for not being more clear.

      I was simply stating that for those of us that would like to voice a counter opinion/concern, our time is short and we might not have the luxury of waiting for a full second draft to make those opinions/concerns known.

      There was no malice in that post, but again, I don't mind apologizing for lack of tone in electronic communication. (But for the record...there's a smiley face at the end of the post.)

    13. Richard Thomas 22-time creator on June 14, 2015

      @MidnightBlue Can you please go ahead and read up on our statements on this before slinging around accusations? We have already made it clear that the changes were made specifically to bring the original vision for the project forward because it was obvious that many folks were reading something into it we never intended. Even some of you who loved parts of it were writing us with other issues that for us demonstrated that somewhere in pulling together the material, the game Matt had conceived had gotten lost.

      Who backed when and why does not change that the first version didn't read as we intended and in order to be the game we intended, it needed a further developer pass. This is, as Rose as pointed out repeatedly, not uncommon in RPG design. I would be very disappointed in us if we had said it was "good enough" because we funded the KS (which is for the Prestige version and not the creation of the game) and hell, let's just sell them something that isn't what we intended, but we got their money.

      Very sorry that some of you already fell in love with parts of the game that we may need to change to be true to what we planned for it. Some of those things may get reworked as Matt deals with them in their proper chapters and not just in an Introduction, and some won't. We can't control which parts relate best to which people, but we can at least write it clearly enough that folks have a reasonable chance of getting what we are trying to get across. So we are working to do what we always do, which is to try and create the finest version of a project as we can.

      You can disagree in the end, but there's no need for ascribing motives to what we are doing when we have been telling you what we're doing, and why, all along.

    14. MidnightBlue
      Superbacker
      on June 14, 2015

      I'd agree that it is too soon to be judging the revisions except for one thing...we're almost halfway through the KS and what was pledged for is being changed based on social media comments...after the original draft had already been funded and was successful. If there are things that many of us who'd already pledged don't like about the revisions, our time is short to campaign for a reversal of said revisions.

      Eh...it's as I said. You can't please everyone. Some people, many of them not backers or I'd imagine they'd have been posting here, wanted something different...and it looks like we are getting something different.

      I'm not judging, but I am lamenting a tad that what I, someone who pledged for the project at face value, was enjoying felt the need to be changed.

      We had already reached funding based on the product that was previewed so I didn't feel that the KS was in any danger. Perhaps OP did?

      In the end, it doesn't really matter on my end I guess. As always, I'll take what I want from an RPG product/idea and use it as I see fit. I've still got the "original" draft text in case after any additional revisions I still prefer those initial concepts...and I'll have the revisions if there is anything I want to poach out of there.

      It's all good.

      =)

    15. Rose Bailey on June 14, 2015

      As I said in the main comments thread, I think it'd help to wait on judging the Devouring/Homecoming issue until we've got some more text in your hands -- specifically, some parts of chapter one and a significant chunk of chapter two. Because the idea that you can both be different and make a choice figures into those chapters.

    16. MidnightBlue
      Superbacker
      on June 14, 2015

      Up front qualifier - I have not yet had a chance to read the revised introduction and I'm only responding to what I'm reading in the comments right now.

      I really liked the Homecoming concept...the idea that I was always the monster, but now I've decided to stop running and turn to face the nightmare...myself. There is a lot of great, dramatic roleplay in that concept.

      It's the scorpion getting a ride on the frogs back...and then poisoning the frog on the way. The scorpion can have regrets, but it is what it is.

      As I've said before, I enjoy playing tragic heroes as my default WoD character archetype. Having a choice to become the Beast makes the character a willing participant of the horror it causes. I much prefer a character that has no choice in the monster it is and must instead try to bite and claw any measure of "good" and redemption out of its existence.

      So in that regard, I will be saddened if what I'm reading below is true...that the Homecoming has been replaced with a Faustian bargain.

      But I'll find out soon enough.

    17. Missing avatar

      Alex Robertson on June 14, 2015

      I like the changes to Heroes. I like that they were intended to be part of the cycle and a counterpart to Beasts in teaching humans how to manage and learn from the fear and nightmares Beasts created. There was a symbiosis between Beast and Hero and they acted in concert.

      Now the Heroes jut seek to destroy Beasts without any intention of benefiting others, simply themselves and a need for glory. The story's been broken.

      Beasts therefore, try to fill both their role and the role of teaching, but it desn't rally work.

      That part, I very much like, however, I'm one of those who much prefers the theme of Homecoming to that of Devouring. Devouring is losing who you are to something else, Homecoming is embracing it.

      I'm aware though, that a lot of people will prefer the Devouring theme, and the end fact is, you'll never settle on a theme that everyone will be completely happy with.

    18. DennisP on June 14, 2015

      The new changes have put to the flames the things that I liked about the previous Intro. I'll be honest if it keeps heading in this direction I will probably cancel my pledge. But with the amount this Kickstarter is set to get I'm sure my money won't be missed.

    19. Missing avatar

      John TK Veltman on June 13, 2015

      Well, I uncancelled my pledge.

      I fully expect and hope this will be further revised, but I like the new material a lot more.

    20. Benjamin Quintana on June 13, 2015

      As one of those firmly lukewarm to the need for the revisions, with the exception of giving further exploration of the Primordial Dream, I LOVE these new revisions! Transforming the Soul into the Horror and replacing Homecoming with the Devouring gives the Beast a much tighter focus on what they were always about: Nightmares, horrible bloody lizard-brain nightmares that have plagued humanity from the earliest days of human history. I even love the new explanation for Heroes, and that was the part I was most concerned about with the new revisons.

      This is far more than just a revision, this is a refinement of what made Beast such a unique game. I cannot begin to say how excited I am for the future matterial to be released. :D

    21. Tyler Schuster on June 13, 2015

      Loving the changes. i like the idea that they get a choice to become a monster, or stay a passive dreamer. That really makes them stand out from all the other supernaturals. It also provides an immediate tie to the beast society.

      It'd be neat if we got rules for those who stay dreamers in an appendix like ghouls for vampires, and kinfolk for werewolves.

      More examples of the lessons taught beasts would be nice.

      Also loving the idea that heroes have a role as well and that there might be a conclusion concerning them that isn't just blood and death. well... might... :)

      Feels a bit scattered, but loving the direction it's going :)

    22. Missing avatar

      John
      Superbacker
      on June 13, 2015

      All in all, I feel that the revisions are pretty much a mixed bag in my opinion.

      I do like the revelation of what the Dream itself is, and feel that it has some cool potential.

      The teaching piece I could really either leave or take... but if its kept, I would really like to see it handled in some more depth, and with more flexibility than it reads here.
      A handful of ideas for thought:
      * Examples of different teaching methods - fear, pain, control, etc... perhaps tie these to various hungers
      * Examples of what individual beasts might be trying to teach.... and as importantly, why.
      * Examples and descriptions of the impact on their students (maybe with some mechanics to go along with this)

      I also agree with another commenter that teaching the masses to be afraid of the dark resonates more strongly with me than a general desire to teach wisdom... though the question of why would still need to be answered

      I do really, really dislike the idea that the potential beast has to agree to be changed.... the primeval monster pursuing them through their dreams and then stopping to ask permission seems like a major disconnect.

      Finally, if the introduction is mentioning new beasts having a vision of the dark mother, I would like to see some examples of how she may be perceived (obviously these could be massively varied)

    23. Adam Krump on June 13, 2015

      Like others have said, I'm not a fan of having one's SOUL devoured to join-up necessary. Maybe one can have devoured servants instead, but the idea of the Homecoming was an infinitely better way of doing things. Before you finally stopped fighting and accepted you were a (forgive any semantics) Beast reborn. An ancient soul in a new, and possibly less than ideal, body. Now you have to give up the thing that makes you YOU to join the "we'll scare them into Enlightenment" camp.

      I mean there's gotta be some middle ground of a sort where one doesn't need to make a Faustian bargain for power, right?

    24. Christopher Shaffer
      Superbacker
      on June 13, 2015

      Addendum to my previous comment -- I do like the idea that Beasts' Lairs can be influenced by the toughest thing in the area, that's an interesting thematic touch.

    25. Jason
      Superbacker
      on June 13, 2015

      So it's gone from being a Homecoming to being Devoured?

      That is quite a shift in tone. Was that change necessary? It doesn't appear to effect the purpose angle at all.

    26. Missing avatar

      The Darium on June 13, 2015

      I have to say, I'm also slightly worried by the directional changes. I liked the original draft, and didn't see the need for major change.

      I like the idea of a Beast trying to justify that what they do is good for humanity, that they try to teach people that going down that dark ally is a bad idea. But only as a singular character. Not what the entire point of a beast is supposed to be. It just seems really... bright, for a World of Darkness.

      Honestly, I'm not sure Beasts NEED a purpose. Vampires don't, Changlings don't. In fact, it could be argued that only Werewolves, Hunters, Mummies and maybe Sin-eaters and Mages, have a purpose for being. They have jobs they are meant to do, whereas the other monsters just exist. They do things, set goals for themselves, but have no underlying need to do anything but feed and continue existing. I don't see why Beasts, as the embodiment of monsters, need anything more. They may make more meaning for themselves, or attach themselves to the meaning of other monsters, but they don't need an inherent meaning to themselves.

      I'd almost rather see Beasts as the prime example of freedom. Something that chooses it's own purpose, rather then have one assigned. Which is why Heroes are their enemies. Heroes assign a purpose to the beast, a story that must be followed. It could also be why they are so foreign to the God Machine, which wants everything to fall into it's pre-determined place.

      I'm also one of the ones that preferred the idea that one is born a Beast. That their souls resonated with the horrors of the Primordial Dream, and no other Beast is needed to spark the soul to recognition. But that's a lesser gripe.

      All that said, I'm still going to back the book. The original draft placed the final Keystone Idea needed to make a Crossover campaign I've had in mind since 2006 work. For that alone it's worth supporting the project.

    27. Missing avatar

      Brian Griffith on June 13, 2015

      Mentioning the Temenos here with no preamble or explanation of what it is seems like it would be confusing to a reader. As a Mage player I know what the Temenos is, but Beast needs to be able to stand on its own. Defining the Primordial Dream in terms of the Temenos doesn't help much unless you define it as well.

      Unless I'm mistaken, Beasts call the Temenos the Bright Dream, right? Perhaps put a lexicon entry for that in, and mention that it's what magi call the Temenos.

    28. Christopher Shaffer
      Superbacker
      on June 13, 2015

      I like the idea that Beasts have a purpose now, and part of what defines Heroes is that when shown that purpose they subconsciously reject it and try to 'prove' something in the process.

      And while I get the idea of Beasts and the Primordial Dream having something to teach humanity, I'm having trouble wrapping my head about Beasts teaching specific lessons, like they're giving someone life lessons that they can ruminate over in a voiceover monologue before the credits roll. I understand this is just the introduction and certainly there'd be more in the book to flesh this out, but I'd kind of like to see how this will pan out in the actual game. Or at least a blog post/update going a bit more into how it's going to work.

      Also, I'm not sure what to think about Beasts now initiating each other. Sure, on the one hand it adds a bit more of community to Beasts as a whole to have that early contact, but it makes Beasts feel less 'natural' to me (that's the best word I can think of). Why should the Primordial Dream be harder for someone naturally aligned to it to connect with than, say, the Supernal Realms? Maybe Beasts could still undergo the Homecoming like they did before, perhaps with an emphasis on the nascent Beast voluntarily (even if subconsciously so) becoming their nightmares, but the process compels another Beast to seek them out right away and tell them what's what.

    29. Markus Lange on June 13, 2015

      You said it much better than i did Shoegaze, i completely agree! We dont want handholding, and this is not a game for everyone, dont take away what made it special, if you try to please everyone you please no one.

    30. Sheebers on June 13, 2015

      I have to agree with Markus's first post. I haven't finished reading the entirety of the revised intro, but I really have to say that, so far, the original was better. I take issue with the way in which the Beast is now "created." I preferred how they were always linked intrinsically with their Soul, how they always knew they weren't quite human, but were not aware of this until an awakening of sorts occurred. I only like the idea of choice insofar as the Beast finally acknowledges and accepts what they already are, but not going so far as to make it a choice to be devoured by something completely external to them. Like Markus said, this takes a lot away from the aspect of coming to terms with one's nature, as it was previously something one was simply born as, as opposed to something created by an external force.

      Also, as Storyteller, I like some things being kept vague, as it gives me wiggle room to create my own answers to some of these cosmic questions. I don't want to be told -exactly- what Beasts are, or why they exist, as I want to decide these things on my own, perhaps on a game-by-game basis. I remember reading that this was the intent behind the new World of Darkness, to keep things mysterious, therefore frightening, as opposed to laying out completely, in direct terms, the answer to every single question.

      Now, I've been out of the loop for a little while, and I'm behind on some of the books. I read that the God-Machine Chronicles does give answers to certain mysteries. I still have to read through it. However, in terms of Beast, I'd prefer not to have my hand held through the entire process, preferring, instead, to be left to use my own sense of reason and imagination to decide the whys and hows of these mysterious creatures.

    31. Marc Collins on June 13, 2015

      I really wish I could like comments here. You'd get two thumbs up, Ken

    32. Ken Smith on June 13, 2015

      I loved the game from the time it was first announced, and I really do like the revisions. It makes the game *much* easier to sell to my friends, for one. I can still be as monstrous as I want, and I appreciate having a default overarching motive besides "Be the Assholiest Asshole who ever Assholed!"

    33. Marc Collins on June 13, 2015

      And wow, that was drastic.

    34. Marc Collins on June 13, 2015

      Ultimately I think that, until we see more, this is a very interesting new direction and it has given a lot of people hope and rekindled interest. The concerns that others seem to have seem to be things that could very easily be accomodated.

    35. shawn hanson on June 13, 2015

      Ok....I know most won't care. I've pondered my thoughts and opinion of beast with revisions.

      The changes vs the Internet fits I've since looked into....and the bowing to the vocal minority. My impression on the situation falls into my view on most of the nwod, a fear of being offensive.

      Was owod offensive to the masses? Fuck yes!!! Was owod great? Fuck yes!!!
      Was Beast offensive? See above
      is beast lite great? .....no. it's watered down like lite beer to be socially acceptable to an overly pc mainstream.

      My interest in the nwod was non exist outside of Geist (which was a short lived love affair as it was a pail "spiritual successor" to wraith). Beast got my fire up. A ballsy game that didn't pull punches. It was what it was without apology. Then it appologised for existing.

      Bye OP. I'll back your owod 20s but nwod is back to being a pale facade to me and this time it will remain so...burned twice and all.

      I know my $100 won't be missed, one less gamer funding for his gaming group. 6 less guys playing won't dent your producing. I just hope one day a company drawn from the ashes of greatness can rise to what it could do again. Peace out.

    36. Marc Collins on June 13, 2015

      @markus Well, to be fair this is just the introduction. It's establishing some ground rules and setting the scene. I'm sure that context will bring clarity.

      And yeah, the Primordial Dream is mostly sealed off but it makes it clear that it was available to early man and then got swamped and lost in the static. So there's still the undercurrent of influence and involvement- especially since Nightmares helped to form the Beasts, and the previous exposition about new Beasts forming/being shaped by evolving fears over time.

    37. Markus Lange on June 13, 2015

      -Marc Collins
      That idea as well is an interesting idea, i just feel the document does not really explain itself well when it comes to the teaching. And mainly makes it look, not good.

      But also remember that the Primordial Dream is a closed of nook&cranny of the dream, not readily available to man, mainly open to beast and hero. Man has his own Dreamscapes, so does the beasts

    38. Marc Collins on June 13, 2015

      But then the Dream is also a reflection of sentient thought- it's governed by the tides and eddies of so many billion minds. There are, of course, dark and terrible lessons within it and ancient secrets as well. I don't think we can whittle the Dream down to one thing when it is literally -everything-.

      It kind of reminds me of the book that got referenced in Slashers; the one where the earliest apes became brain-hunting cannibals which eventually squeezed their brains in their skulls and drove them mad and cut them off from nature.

      Man has lost touch with his Primal side, and become ensnared in the wheels of the Machine. Beasts remind them that there are more things in heaven and earth, and they should be avoided. In flesh, in thought, in deed.

    39. Markus Lange on June 13, 2015

      My main issue with them being teachers is that you cant teach through fear. Fear is not an effective medium through which to impart teachings, pain is a much more effective tool than fear.

      Again, i personally feel that most these changes were detrimental to the ideas crafted in the original draft, as it does change the beasts on a very basic level, and these changes will change how one plays this game.

      Which saddens me for i though the original ideas to be exactly what i wanted Beast to be.

    40. Markus Lange on June 13, 2015

      Indeed, and if the Primordial Dream will remain as wisdom and knowledge, it should not be the wisdom to not touch a hot place or do dumb human things. The knowledge should be ancient! Forgotten, forbidden and impossible, knowledge that tempts, knowledge that contains power, knowledge that must be guarded

    41. Marc Collins on June 13, 2015

      As I've said elsewhere, I don't see how adding an overall thematic aspiration will stop you from being that monstrous thing. The idea of being the teachers through fear helps to give Beasts a kernel of restraint and stops you from being primarily unpalatable. There is, however, nothing to stop you from being that sort of Beast personally. I also like the nuance of having Beasts who lose themselves to other Supernatural ways of life.

      I think that what really needs to be factored in is unaided Devourings; because really, it doesn't seem like its that hard a realisation to come to.

      As to Markus; surely using fear to prevent profane knowledge from leaking out is exactly the sort of thing that Beasts would do? Especially Makara, who are obsessed with the knowledge of the past and echoes of the Dark Mother.

      On the whole I'm very pleased with these changes; they add a bit more direction and nuance to the Beasts while utterly elevating the concept of Heroes.

    42. shawn hanson on June 13, 2015

      While I do like the teaching humanity aspect I'd prefer the cull the herd and keep them from prying into the dark MUCH more. But on top of that I don't see why the begotten (still a term??) NEED a reason. Yes, they feed in monstrous ways. So do uratha tearing spirits to ribbons. So do vampires. Changeling rape dreams. Why not just leave the beasts as individuals...representatives of ancient bygones hungering for the fear they once caused. Individuals making their rep for good or I'll despite what they are in their primal core.

      Seriously considering my pledge over this sadly

    43. Markus Lange on June 13, 2015

      And if the Beasts, the ancient souls truly were guarding this knowledge, imagine what terrible foes men, hunters or heroes that got hold of this forgotten and forbidden knowledge could be? They could pose a terrible threat to the Beasts

    44. Markus Lange on June 13, 2015

      Apologize about the few typo´s in my text, but as you see, i do feel very passionately about the ideas of the first document, and sincerely hopes that those ideas are kept rather than the revisions.

      Tho the Primordial Dream did need some explanation, i think wisdom and knowledge might not be the right way of doing it. Instead of being bearers of information the beasts could guard it, for there are things men are never supposed to know, things they could find in their dreams, turning the Beasts with their ancient souls as guardians, where the nightmares serve as a way to distract and mislead those who'd seek this knowledge.

      And please, bring back the ancient soul explanation… I mean, the idea of the devouring is not bad, it is actually pretty cool… but the ancient souls one is cooler. Perhaps those who have their souls devoured and merged could serve as ghouls do to vampires? Men or women who have taken a choice to guard the primordial knowledges, or to cull mankind to keep them from reaching too far into the dark.

    45. Markus Lange on June 13, 2015

      I must sadly say that these revisions do greatly disappoint me, i fel that it removes a lot of the Joy of tackelig having become a beast, it removes a lot of challenge and dedicated horror and fear. It also feels a lot less cool to play this horror rather than the ancient soul, even though there is a lot of semantics at work here. It also removes the player from themselves and turns the horror into an adversary rather than us BEING the monster

      Sadly, i find that most of these revisions are really damaging to the basic idea of the original work of Beast: the Primordial.
      You are supposed to be an ancient soul, a beast, you life was taken from you, you did not know who you were, but once it happened it all made sense. If my character CHOSE to become a beast it will evaporate a lot of potential roleplaying whereby one wrestles with what one is, even thought one might regret ones desiccation afterwards, one still took the choice to become this horror.

      It also seems that the new way of the beast’s soul being its own entity or «horror» feels, wrong, it forges an adversary you have to please, it could have been explained in a much different way by still keeping the semantics of the Ancient Soul ( and keeping that you were always this until your awakening) That you can give in to your own hungers, and become wild, or stand against them and keep your sanity and composure.

      The addition of primordial wisdom also feels, sadly, tacked on. Never in my life have i truly learned anything from a nightmare, nor fear. It is very basic. Tho i do enjoy the idea i feel that i has not been carried through well enough. Beast is about feeding your hunger, keeping the beast (yourself) in check as to not attract too much information.
      I think it could have been done better by thinking of the beasts not as teachers, but cullers of mankind and other kindred.

      «We are here to keep you in check, to keep you reeling in fear, to keep you small and insignificant, to keep you away from realizing the horrors of this world, we are what hunts in the dark, we teach you fear, we show you that you are truly weak and powerless»

      Then you can have Heroes who go against this, who are obviously monster hunters driven to near madness, who will not let anything stand in their way of glorious victory, of proving to this beast, that this tiny human, fights back, this tiny human is not afraid, this insignificant human, rebels.

      Beast: The Primordial is a very special game, and demands certain things of the players and the storyteller, it is not for everyone. I would rather have the original Beast rather than any of these revisions, as i feel they are undermining the great ideas presented in the original document. I wish to play a Beast, an Ancient Soul born a human that brings fear in its wake, to sate my hunger, to keep mankind afraid, to keep mankind meek.

      «It was not my choice to become this, but when it first revealed itself to me, i knew, it felt so right, and i knew, who… or what i was, for the first time in my life, i knew my place."