Use this space to cheer the creator along, and talk to your fellow backers.
Have a question?
I'm one of the frustrated backers waiting for a product I expected almost 2 years ago. I believe this is the first time I've commented here and it seems to make no sense to add my complaint about the delay. I'm instead writing to request that given the dismal failure of Aption Labs to fulfill their commitment that they not add insult to injury by emailing me offers to buy more of a product I still don't have. While I want to remain on the distribution list of updates I do not want to be solicited. Please tell us that there is way to unsubscribe from future offers but not to updates. If that is not the case then please make it possible.
STILL NO MEATERS!
I TRULY HATE THIS!
Wow glad I got my product because this comment section is a disaster
I'm wondering when we're going to get the bankruptcy/class action notices for this project... where we can each recoup a couple dollars on our $200+ investment. Backed in 2015 for a distribution-ready product, and we're coming up on 2018... no product.
Chuck you dumb smuch.. no one gives a dam about your long winded repetitive rambling
FFS STFU and find a new hobby other than constantly commenting in here.. what a pity KS comments isn’t more like twitter with a max length dribble count
I have received my Meaters, thanks! However, I would like to know why Meater has distributed my contact details to 3rd parties. In particular I have received Spam Tim of Fusion Lens Technologies using contact details I have only ever provided to Meater and no-one else.
I think that what the majority of remaining unfulfilled backers want is successful completion of the project and delivery of their Block rewards.
I think that what the vast majority of all backers want is successful completion of the project; the App expanded, brought forward onto new platforms, and maintained; the cloud-based server available for years to come; integration with home automation platforms; and spare parts and service for our Meater systems available long-term.
That's what I think "winning" looks for the vast majority of Meater backers, not prying out some datum of information such that you can dance around with it on a pike like some conquering warrior.
I also suspect, by the way, that Apption's vision of what winning looks like is the same as mine. We're all in this together. It's not Apption vs. backers. We all want the same thing. It's not an adversarial relationship as you seem to want to make it. There is no need to -- no benefit from -- making this into a fight of us vs. Apption.
You think this is about "winning"?
Its about information. Its about less complaining. But we know you don't get it, so don't worry about it.
"So that had an effect I'd say. "
But what effect?
It make you feel better. It gave you cause to do a victory dance... victory that you got your question answered.
But did it get the project done any faster? I doubt it.
As I have said several times, it is possible that Apption did exaggerate a bit about the project's readiness. Or, it could just have been over enthusiasm. It could also be that they thought they were in a better position than they were. It could be that the crush of ending up over ten times oversubscribed changed the scope of the project. In light of all of these other possibilities, I see no reason to -- without one shard of evidence-- jump to the worst-case extreme conclusion that this is all some sort of deliberate con job.
But, as I have also said several times, how we got here is "water under the bridge." Whining and complaining about it does no good. The fact is that we are here and we should focus on moving forward. All indications are that Apption is doing that. The App, the Base/Probe rewards delivered are all powerful physical evidence that Apption is working on the project and making progress. And that -- not some accounting for perceived past transgressions -- is what the vast majority of backers really want most.
No effect? The majority of the comments here aren't directed at Apption as such. In fact the majority of the comments here are from you, directed at other backers..
The comment simply asking for the Nth time if they had ordered the compliance testing was provided with a response. So that had an effect I'd say. And while you'll probably go off an a tangent, more information will always be better..
You consistently fail to grasp the issue is they presented the project as production ready - unlike the majority of campaigns which are mostly a concept requiring considerable R&D by usually an relatively inexperienced team.
So while the terms are the same, some perceive it differently and its not your place to tell them they are wrong. They're not wrong, they just don't share your point of view.
Mr. Maclean says, "I build houses for a living and I can tell you if I took millions of dollars from a client and didn't provide them with an incredible amount of information as to why I'm 2 years overdue id be in an indescribable amount of trouble."
It is reasonable of your customer to expect that. There's probably some clauses in your contract regarding expected progress, reporting, and penalties for not meeting the schedule.
I design products for people for a living. If my executives gave me and my team millions of dollars -- which they do -- to develop a product for them, they would also reasonably expect to be kept apprised of the project and would expect explanations of delays. And if I don't do that, they can certainly fire me.
I, myself, am also an angel investor. And I expect the companies I invest i -- just one right now -- to keep me up to date on what's going on. I also expect them to make their coupon payments on time.
But we are not customers. We are not employers. We are not investors. We are a different species. We are Kickstarter Backers.
The agreement we operate under gives us no negative leverage at all. We can't withdraw our support. We can't fire anyone. We can't cancel the project. Nothing.
The agreement we operate under does give us a right to expect updates. There's no specification of how often they should come or what format they should take or how details they should be. Apption has made fifty updates. Lately, they make about one per month which is certainly well within expectations.
The agreement we operate under also gives us an expectation that the creators will make a good effort to complete the project. So far, we have seen the App. Base/Probe backers have received their rewards and report that they are of good quality and functional. We have every reason to believe that Apption is making a good effort to complete the project.
The best thing for us as Kickstarter backers to do under these circumstances -- about the only thing we really can do -- is wait patiently.
We are neither investors nor customers. We are Kickstarter backers. And that is something entirely different from being either an investor or a customer. It's sort of the worst of both worlds. What we hope to get is to be the first to get a great new product and the right to say that we contributed to creating it.
We donated our money -- that's really the best word for it -- in the hope that if the project is eventually successful, we might eventually receive some promised reward. But we also agreed that the reward was by no means guaranteed. We agreed that the project has risks including the risk that it may be late... maybe very late... that there may be changes along the way, that the eventual product may not be exactly as promised, and that the project could fail and we would receive neither refund nor reward but would lose our money entirely. We also agreed to understand that estimated delivery dates are not deadlines but are just estimates subject to being wrong. We all agreed to those things.
We are neither investor nor customer.
And once we've freely given over our money, we really have no leverage in the matter. We've relinquished it all.
So, Can I prove whining and complaining and belittling and criticizing didn't get Meater blocks to our kitchens one day sooner? No, I suppose not. But, so far, it doesn't seem to have accelerated things very much. When you have no leverage to back up your bluster, it simply stands to reason that it will have no effect. It makes one seem like a viscous dog which growls and barks and bares its teeth and may seem frightening, until one realizes that it's ties up with a strong chain and has no chance of actually affecting you. And once you realize that, you may even begin to laugh at that dog for all of its impotent threatening. It can bark and growl all it wants to, but it can't actually affect me, so why should I pay it any attention?
I have been doing new-product development professionally for decades now. I'm a veteran of many projects including some that have encountered major unexpected problems and ended up way behind schedule. And I can tell you as one who has been there and done that and has a closet full of tee shirts -- literally -- I have never once seen criticism or belittling or complaining or whining or threatening or any negativity motivate any team to get done one second sooner. It doesn't work when the one threatening has the authority to fire those behind schedule. Why would you expect it to work when you have no no threat to make at all?
We are Kickstarter backers. As backers, we are supposed to support and encourage our creators.
Right now, the best thing we can do to help Apption -- and to help ourselves because helping Apption helps us -- is to just be patient.
yeah, I didn't really know what to call us, if I say we're customers I get told to go back to amazon. I'm just trying to illustrate how bad the communication is. I build houses for a living and I can tell you if I took millions of dollars from a client and didn't provide them with an incredible amount of information as to why I'm 2 years overdue id be in an indescribable amount of trouble. really I just want to know what's going on
I think everyone here was cheering them on back in 2015 when we were told we were backing a production ready product that just needed funding to reach production.
Almost two years later, and no realistic date for blocks to ship, and you still think we should all be on here cheering them on for the great progress they have made...
You can call it overly optimistic, or overly ambitious, or however you wish to spin it Chuck, I will call it as I see it...they flat out lied about where the product was at in the beginning, and they have continued to be less than truthful about the progress over the past two years. This product was still in design phase when we backed it.
Sorry, the cheering well has gone dry.
See what I mean? Here is a good example of a Person who doesn't even know what Kickstarter is or what being a Kickstarter backer is.
I'm sorry, the rest of us probably keep forgetting its a place to belittle your fellow backers to make oneself feel superior. Was it even necessary to correct the possible misssuse of the phrase investors more than once?
Did you stop to think if he could have meant an emotional investment, surely that would make him a investor, maybe not in the traditional sense, but surely enough for you not drag him out to the town square for a public flogging to satisfy your ego?
Since you seem to insist on playing pidgeon chess; I'll try my best: Can you prove it didn't get Meater blocks to our kitchens one day sooner?
Maybe it did. If the knowledge provided, along with the forecast provided (and backed up by even the Supreme Chuck-Un) it could be that backers that would otherwise turn to social medias, friends and family to share their dismay and adversely affecting Meater sales would simply accept the situation when they actually know a little bit more what the situation is. Maybe that results in fewer lost sales and in turns help expedite the production of the Block once its finished.
And if your definition of managing, is removal, then I think you just won this match.
"We as investors use this platform try find out what we need from the company we invested in."
See what I mean? Here is a good example of a Person who doesn't even know what Kickstarter is or what being a Kickstarter backer is.
All I say is, Chuck you provide excellent feedback on our concerns, questions and troubleshooting on the product that we invested in (bent over, and wondering what happens next.). You are not affiliated with this product. We as investors use this platform try find out what we need from the company we invested in. since the last time apption labs responded you have responded 18 times. umm "refute", had to look up the true definition. you are in no place to so.
I don't think I "attempt;" I succeed.
And, in doing so, I stand up for the Kickstarter platform which I happen to like and which is, unfortunately, often criticized because it is not what some people assume it to be.
Then WHY attempt to refute anything Chuck ?
Did it get Meater Block to our kitchens one day sooner?
Is it really Apption's responsibility to manage your expectations? Maybe the best way to manage your expectations is just to be patient?
Doesn't do any good? They stepped up and admitted to not having ordered the certifications; the only way to get information they don't volunteer is to ask for it. More information = better expectation management = less whining.
Investors? Sorry but thats not the correct term. We're more in the "bent over and wondering what happens next" category..
Yup. And all I've done in those posts is repeat stuff I've said several times before. Why? Because all I've been doing is refuting tired arguments and whines and complaints that the same people have made many times before. It's just the same few downers making the same tired -- and refuted -- arguments, and the same tired whines and complaints. And, as I say, none of it accomplishes anything or does any good. None of it is going to get Meater Block into our kitchens even one day sooner.
The best thing we backers can do is just be patient.
All I say is, Chuck you provide excellent feedback on our concerns, questions and troubleshooting on the product that we invested in. You are not affiliated with this product. We as investors use this platform try find out what we need from the company we invested in. since the last time apption labs responded you have responded 15 times
" If any of my employees miss the mark as they did I would double fire them..."
As an employer, that is your prerogative; you have that negative leverage.
As Kickstarter backers, we really have no negative leverage. We can't fire 'me. We can't fine 'me. We can't demote them. We really have no stick. This is our lot as Kickstarter backers.
chastised for missing a deadline, what did you expect a rally of support love and enthusiasm? If any of my employees miss the mark as they did I would double fire them...
I can accept a well-explained delay even maybe two because you know shit happens, but anything more it has to be very well sustained for me not to complain about it.
I'm a backer of revols another project that has been delayed to the point of being the same joke as meater, yet they have provided very detailed explanation of what they are doing, what went bad so at least you know your footing in that project, people is pissed yes a lot, but I feel communication is clearer and more honest
What I gave -- had you actually read it you would know -- is and was clearly and explicitly presented as "my guestimate." Am I not entitled to give that, especially when I so clearly present it as such?
And as for all being on the same team, I whole-heartedly agree; we should all be on Apption's team cheering for them and supporting them with our encouragement and patience. It's not Apption vs. Backers in my mind.
@chuck know I've seen it all, you claim not to be affiliated with apption.. maybe I believe that?? but now your giving out timeline for production hahahaha if there not paying you already they should be. Where did you come out with that guesstimate??? Cause from the last three updates I see no signs of that happening. Also if you really contributed to that meater scam that was obviously a joke, You deserve it. @bjorns filter was funny at first but I might actually implement it now
The project is a device.
Chuck , Respectively the only role as a backer is to comment on the product production, progress or performance of it.
The device when it is delivered, open game.
Dial back your stupid comments about people complaining- it’s their right and you have no right to judge-
I feel sorry for you if you comment here
to try and feel superior. Technically.
Backers should be on the same
Apption has said why they are hesitant to give an estimated date: they have been chastised for missing estimated dates in the past and this time they want to get it right which necessarily means waiting until it's very certain.
My personal best guesstimate is Q2 2018. We'll see.
In the meantime, all of the negativity and whining and belittling and complaining and stomping up and down and impotent demanding does no good. None of it will bring Block to our Kitchens one day faster.
The best thing we as Kickstarter Backers can do is be patient.
@Clayton; yeah, I'm going back on the wagon myself. Gonna try out the version that removes other peoples posts if it contains "a certain keyword" as well :))
Ask, why? To manage expectations. If we have enough information to make an informed decision on what to expect when they don't need to tell us when they are ready to ship.
That both you and Apption fail to see that the only thing thats gonna prevent people from asking questions, is answers - that's kinda amusing; and most of the "whiners" will also stop whining when they get realistic idea of when to expect their block.
They can always continue to work on software and firmware after shipping; the fact that they're saying they are working on bugs; and still not got a production line set up, or built the samples to send for certification tells us there is more to it.
It could be they haven't even finished the hardware development, or it could be they don't have money to spend on manufacturing and certificates, it could be gremlings - who knows.
But whatever; given the work we know remains to be done this thing isn't gonna hit any mailboxes before early summer at best. If its summer 2018 or summer 2019 I guess we'll have to wait and see..
If they miss summer 2018 they might as well not bother; pretty much everyone will have a outdated mobile device to do the job by then.
It's awesome to have blocked out Chuck, but I'm still seeing what people are writing back to him in response... way more entertaining!
As I said before, really don’t need a person who is not affiliated with the company giving advice to other backers. It’s kinda silly any backer would defend a company they are not affiliated and everyone has a right to complain when they deem necessary.
Frankly, I don’t complain, I want to see how this plays out but I sure as hell think everyone who has concerns has the right to say WHATEVER is on their minds and this is the forum- ya paid money here——— ya sure as hell can complain here!
Cheers to the block in 2019
I'm not in any position -- none of us are -- to do anything else effective. Welcome to being a Kickstarter backer... remember, you signed up to be in this position.
But, in general, criticizing and condemning and whining and complaining do no good. None of that -- nor conducting some sort of inquisition -- is going to get Block into our kitchens one day sooner. But positivity and encouragement might. And I'll take might over won't any day.
The best thing we Kickstarter backers can do at this point is just be patient.
I would love to have all customers like Chuck, a 2-year delay and still defending my position ROFL
"But if you wanna go on and on about weather or not they did what they said they would...."
I'm not the one who wants to go on and on about nit-picking and Monday-quarterbacking and cross-checking and psycho-analyzing every statement Apption has ever made. I don't think I'm the one that wants to engage in that at all.
"...instead of focusing on asking the correct questions to help them provide the information the backers are asking for and addressing the issue..."
Let me again -- and again and again and again -- ask why?
Please, tell me -- and everyone else -- what good are you trying to accomplish here?
All of this negativity and complaining and demanding and gotcha-gaming does no good. It's not going to help the project go faster. I guess that it just feels go to you to parade around and stomp your feet and make demands and feel like you're doing something. But it does the project no good.
Maybe you envision some victory dance for yourself if you can finally be the one that got Apption Labs to admit that they're behind schedule. Woo Hoo! But it's not going to help the project get done.
While it may feel good to you personally, all of this ranting and raging and demanding and complaining just isn't helpful to the project. It's not going to being Block to our kitchens one day faster.
Maybe -- I say "maybe" because I don't know the truth of the situation -- maybe Apption did exaggerate their position going into the project. Or maybe, in their irrational enthusiasm, they just over-estimated it. But, at this point, that is, as they say, water under the bridge. Right now, how we got here really isn't important because we are here. As I'm fond of saying, "Engineers fix the problem; managers fix the blame." As an engineer, I have very little interest in blame fixing. And I trust that the engineers at Apption are working on the problem.
Right now, the best thing we as Kickstarter backers can do is be patient. There is plenty of hard evidence to believe that Apption is hard at work on the project and making progress. Grandstanding here, stomping up and down, making demands, just simply isn't helpful.
I second that Ken. I would not have funded this if I knew they didn’t have a product. The original “pitch” is way different than the reality.
Freedom of speech is a thing so I would expect folks to feel free to complain here. If someone told me to vent in another forum.... well, ��
You want proof Chuck.....in their own campaign pitch: "They will use the funds raised to pay for tooling, certifications, and actual production costs"........Are production costs the same as development ?? no......they pitched this as a ready to go product. There....no discussion, that is a lie. Period. You can't spin this in any direction. At no time in their pitch, did they say " development"..." design"...."engineering"......Also from their pitch: We are now in the late stages of the project and ready to move forward with finalizing the product and get to mass production.........well, we can CLEARLY see this is complete and utter BS. The BLOCK isn't even ready yet, 2 years later. Now, I know what you're going to say Chuckster...." things come up when creating a new product, things change"....yup, I get it. We ALL get it.......WHAT HAS GONE WRONG ?? That's what they aren't saying. They don't tell us the issues, they don't tell us what's going on. Just fluff and BS. Good grief Chuck....get your head out of your dupa.....for the 15th time.....not telling us what's going on is what's pissing us all off !!!!!
But if you wanna go on and on about weather or not they did what they said they would, instead of focusing on asking the correct questions to help them provide the information the backers are asking for and addressing the issues that could hurt their sales then sure, lets do that.
And if the internet picks up on this thing only having a few feet line-of-sight range then I don't think thats gonna help their sales and they for some reason seem to be "its all on track" as per usual. Not good, and if they don't sell a but load of these things I doubt we'll ever see the block.
If they were straight up with is and everything was "on track" for who years, we'd have the products 18 months ago. I.e. they have not been straight up with us; and looking at the timeline they have estimated shipping within 1 monthin time and time again - while they knew they didn't even have the certificates ordered.
So yeah, I call that deliberate deceit. If in the remote chance they actually believed it to be true, then they surely don't have the experience they claim to have. Again, deliberate deceit.
Mr. Maclean expresses frustration saying, "every time you [that would be me] get involved you hinder this process, we get infuriated..."
Oh, I am so sorry that I am frustrating you. Pray tell, what "process" am I hindering? Tell me, please, how this "process" will help or do any good, nothing that will make this project go any faster. I'd really love to know how became, as a professional new-product developer, I have been in projects that have been behind schedule and run into unforeseen problems and I'd love to learn a cure for that. But I have never seen berating or complaining or threatening work at all. Quite the opposite, in fact, in my experience. But maybe I just haven't seen it done correctly, so please tell me how?
The "process" I am hindering is you having a commiseration party, of you enjoying being miserable together and trying to make other people miserable too. Well, if that's what you want to do, then fine. But take it somewhere else. I'm told that there's a big commiseration going on over on Reddit. I'm not a member there, so you can escape from my horrible, cheery, upbeat, positive, party-pooping, glass-half-full sort of ways over there. There you can have your pitty party, there you can enjoy your anger without me causing you any frustration.
I don't speak for Apption; I never have claimed to. But I also do not jump to maximal-negative and totally unsubstantiated extreme conclusions about the slightest disclarity. Apption says that they will be testing for compliance. Their next update doesn't mention the result. Therefore, we naturally conclude that Apption is lying to us? No. I, myself, have arrived at a compliance lab bright and early on a scheduled lab day only to be told, "ah... just a few minutes... we're having trouble with the antenna tower.... Just a few more minutes.... we'll be testing soon... really... just a few more minutes... Sorry. Go home. It's broken. We can't fix it. The part will take three days to get here and then we'll have to recalibrate which will take another day. We'll give you a call when we get the resulting schedule disaster sorted out. So sorry." And that was at one of the most prestigious EMC labs in the world where I personally visit often enough to keep a parking lot permit tag in my glove box. Stuff happens.
There is just no reason -- much less excuse -- to rush head-long to the unsubstantiated and utterly-pejorative conclusion that some sort of lying or deception or fraud going on.
The evidence in the physical form of the Base/Probe product is that these people are doing the work and we can expect Block to be a good product.
Just be patient and let them work.
And with that said, again, I will once again ask what good does all of the whining and complaining and threatening and accusing and negativity do? It does no good at all. It's certainly not going to make the project go any faster. Everyone -- including Apption -- knows that the project is running late. Everyone -- including Apption -- knows that people are not happy about that. I'm sure that Apption is not happy about it. It's all been said. What is left for us backers is be patient and let Apption finish the project.
I don't know Apption's specific situation, chuck your words, stop answering for them. we are not a small few whiners, we are simply seeking answers. every time you get involved you hinder this process, we get infuriated every time you do, and it is every time. its idiotic.
You have accused Apption of, and I do quote, "deliberate deceit. "
You have shown no hard evidence to support that serious accusation.
You keep asking for proof they lied - I'm saying they're not being straight up with us. Similar but not the same. Kinda like being production ready and still in development 2 years down the road.. In their communication they're leaving out details to aid in pretending everything is on track, and have done so for two years.
I'm not saying the block is a freaud; thats you putting words in my mouth. I've questioned weather or not the delay is purely development or financial, sure. Two years of additional R&D will put a tax on any budget so its not an unreasonable concern.
The hoops-and-hurdles for regulatory and agency compliance are well-defined. But failure is always possible and not necessarily a result of incompetence. EMC on intentional emitters is notoriously difficult. Many great engineers need multiple attempts to pass. Keep in mind that making the full suite of measurements requires literally a million dollars worth of facilities and equipment. Maintaining those calibrated and precision facilities and equipment costs a good fraction of a million dollars more per-year. As a result -- while I don't know Apption's specific situation -- most small companies do not own these facilities and equipment; we rent them. And that means that if you fail, it could be weeks or months before you're able to get time in the lab again.
Unless and until you can show hard evidence that Apption has deliberately lied to us, I will not jump to the maximally-negative extreme conclusion that there is any intentional fraud here. Where is your hard evidence? Not just assumptions or jumped-to conclusions, not just opinions or beliefs or speculations or suspicions, but hard evidence?
Base/Probe has been delivered and it works and it is a high-quality product. That is strong hard evidence that strongly supports the conclusions that Block is not, in fact a giant fraud, and, furthermore, that Block will also be a fully-functional and high-quality product.