by Cliffhanger Productions
I suppose Arena's engine looks nice (Apart from the fact it doesn't lie my hardware) but the game itself is deeply unimpressive. Expect a lot more from SRO.
Thumbs up! :-)
Thank you all for your comments and encouragement - we understand the frustration of SRO taking longer and the periods of silence on our end. The simple truth is we seem to always have more than our hands full and although we tried to establish a regular update rhythm, something always gets in the way (such as our lead designers going on a two week trip to Africa and coming back with an exciting new virus that knocked out half our team with a fever...well actually that may not be true, but we still like to blame him for taking down half the team).
Regarding AERENA keys - yes, you can gift them. They are yours to use as you wish.
Regarding Combat vs Non-Combat skills: I think the initial parts will more heavily tilt towards combat and stealth. Any application of social skills will always lead towards scripting, as it presumes a certain amount of "if...then" trees in the level. This is difficult to do and makes the whole level design exponentially more difficult to test and create. We thought about abilities like "talking down" guards or "tricking" them, but that would not be social skill gameplay, but basically just a "charisma based magic skill" you apply (and it would feel weird to "fast talk" a guard out of attacking you during a fight. That means we need to create specific missions - legwork - which use special settings (such as not seeing you as an enemy) and limited scripts. We fully intend to do them, but seeing as we are late already I think those will come more after launch and be limited inside the first release. Kinda like the Matrix maps in SRR, which are used in specific circumstances.
The good thing about using the skill-tree system for stats as well is, that there are no dependencies. So once we come out with say the "legwork update pack", we just add the skill tree for it and people can choose to transfer points from other trees.
Also, if at some point we feel we need to go beyond the initial number of skills in a tree we can add those, giving you more skill options but not automatically making you better - if we extended the number range from 12 to say 20, the whole balancing would be threatened.
Lastly handling AERENA vs SRO - AERENA, as some of you have noticed, is more a sort of battle chess meets steampunk meets LOL. So it is more schematic in its movements and controls. SRO will use actual Line of Sight, smoothing movement (so it does not feel like moving on a hex- or tile-based grid), less "tile counting" and much more "run and gun" gameplay (similar to XCom). It will have more environments of course as well :)
No need to apologize, I appreciate the gesture. I think people get very confused about the difference between a 'backer' and an 'owner' or 'developer'. Then they put on their ambiguous internet face and start slashing. I understand that people a passionate about Shadow Run, I am as well. Sure more updates would be great, but at the same time I want a certain level of mystique. Example: I no longer go to see most movies because you can see the good parts of the film in the previews. I am a substantial backer myself, enough to buy many paper and dice source books. But when we BACKED you, we handed YOU the GM keys, and on the creative license. I am still just glad for the effort and will continue to be on the edge of my seat in anticipation if the day I can run the shadows with more than my closest friends. On a completely side note one thing that I have always used to custom used my character was a custom made saber instead of the traditional katana, mor sword types would be GREAT!
Thanks for sending us the key to get a look and feel of the graphic engine, chummers! As soon as I have the key, I'll check it out :-).
Good work takes time and money, so reinvesting money and tech from aerena makes sense, to my eyes.
Thanks for your insight in your thoughts on skills and plots, too.
Will this "all-skills" system be flexible for future features?
The adequates "skill" system definately depends on what missions and plots will be presented. If it's 90% combat, there is no need for charisma (except maybe conjuring, or pre-legwork). But if you chose to vary on mission aspects, social skills could be essential sooner or later.
I'm playing The Secret World now since a while now. Don't be afraid, I don't expect such a game (!!!), but what I really like are the 3 mission categories. You have combat related missions (category red), stealth related (yellow) AND as a very good alternation investigative missions (green), where you don't need (or at a very low percentage) combat skills. In this green missions, you need your own brain or google for success.
In Shadowrun Online, there could be a category where you are high dependant on legwork. "Detective"-Quests for example ("Find the missing son of the Oyabun"). That's a fancy variation, where social skills or attributes may have a focus.
I don't say it's a must for the start, but it would be cool, if your skill and plot system may have a room for the future...
Best regards and thanks again fopr your update!
&Cliffhanger: I understand this point. I need to clarify my question, asking about the same thing as @J.R.Riedel does before...what would be he portion of Non-combat situations in the game...talking about legwork, negotiations with johnson, preparing disguise for infiltration etc? Would it be 50%:50%, or would it be 90% combat : 10% of anything else...can you try to guess this ballance? I know this heavily depends on character build, well would there be enought food also for "Social adepts" or the game would be primnary combat oriented?
This was a shot in your own feet... :(
I`m not impressed by aerena and feat a little bit of the quality what I expected from SRO :(
In general it shows again most kickstarters not know how to handle their backers.
Thank you for the clarification,
I was one of the silent ones that didn't comment or say anything, but still had concerns regarding the things that you talked about... (mainly that it seemed kind of 'banner saga' like to have a company that I previously thought was dedicated to making the game that I donated a bit towards, come out with something that was 'not' the game I donated towards... something just feels off about that.)
I appreciate you posting about that, though It would be nice if reality was more like my fantasy, and the 'whole team' was dedicated to getting ShadowRun Online out the door. G'luck, with your new financial overlords!
Thanks again for the SRO updates.
Thanks for the update.
Great update- thanks guys! I'm really excited about your game and I'm glad it sounds like you're doing it right. :)
ok, i'm not impressed by aerena... I desperately hope that the movement/combat will be more nuanced in shadowrun. Moving and attacking in squares (would hexes be too much to ask) feels incredibly clunky. But I'm glad you finally got around to giving us some news!
Yeah, don't let the negative comments get to you. Kickstarter has become a place where people can spend a few bucks to buy themselves the right to judge, insult and feel entitled.
@Laurent Maire: Apologies, I should be more specific than "Windows-only" (though Steam does list the game that way). Since it's a Unity3D web-player game and I'm a Linux gamer, I would only play on my Android mobile because Unity Technologies has stated that while they support exporting standalone PC games for Linux, but that they will not port the browser plugin. Even if my Android mobile was big enough to enjoy playing games (it's not, at least not for my tastes in gaming), that still would not make the Steam key useful to me no matter how cool the game is. I could walk the path of pain and mess with Wine, but it always fails me eventually. Instead of trashing the team for a generous offering, as some have done, I thought, why not go help them grow their community by gifting the Steam key to someone who could actually use it?
Apparently I accepted the key in the good spirit it was given - my first thought was "I will check this out and see how SRO may play and look in the future." While it crashed a fair bit on my system, I could see the elements making up the game and the level of polish introduced.
It's a shame that some people could not understand this. Even if you had used SRO money to make another game that developed the engine to run the game in question, that would have been a worthwhile investment - but it seems that this was made with other monies anyway and SRO benefits as well. I do believe that you and the SRR team at Harebrained also shared assets? If so, everyone is coming together to bring the glory that is Shadowrun to the masses!
@S.D. If it helps the game isn't windows-exclusive at all but also runs just fine on my mac. There's also an Android version you could try out if you felt like it? I like it. It's a fun little turned-based snack between other things. Think Banner Saga mechanics by way of the Running Man meets the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
Well I was personally really happy about receiving a free key to your new game. It's not a MOBA/Dota clone at all but a fun little turned-based match game, like chess but with colorful and eccentric character designs. I guess the realities of the industry and the way development business actually works bears some explanation though.
Classy update guys, keep it up and thanks a bunch!
Hm.... the expected skill Balancing problem..
Well, I hope having non-combat related skills will be useful...
Indeed Shadowrunner should be able to defend themselfs so combat and avoiding damage always helps and is important - the most important eventually.... but I always think there are two main skill based distinction how Runners Keep their individuality.
1.: how they fight and avoid getting killed (weapon of choice, armor +high Body vs dodge, etc.)
2.: what they can do else.... ergo non-combat-skills
So yes perhaps u can´t use them in combat but I hope there will be lead-free moments too
Just my 2 cents
My 20-20 hindsight realizes that if the order of these two updates had been inverted (basically) than most of the trouble would have been avoided. I think most people are not ungrateful (many do seem so, of course) but that we, as a group want Shadowrun first, all else second.
I'll re-iterate a question I asked on the last thread (which may show my ignorance of Steam, pardon that): Aerena is a Windows-only game, so I have no use for it. May I gift my Early Access Key?
Thanks a lot.
I was never confused, as you explained it in some earlier update and I was just happily surprised to get a free key.
Just continue and keep us up to date.
Charisma being useless referred to the amount of times it can be used versus the amount of times you get combat. Even in SRR, charisma could pretty much be replaced by just walking through dialogue options, whereas combat could rarely be resolved by talking to people.
As a quick reassurance - my only concern about the last update is that it didn't include this text! I'm interested to try out AERENA, both in its own right and to see how the engine and interface are working out. It's not that the last post didn't belong here, and your generosity is appreciated, not resented. You just forgot to include an SRO update with it! (You might be surprised... I don't think I'm alone in saying that a paragraph or two would have been enough to reassure me that SRO was still progressing.)
finaly the comment I can "Like" :)
One thing that strikes me in your update...
You say Charisma would be useless. That would be true in realy straight combat oriented game, as Charisma linked skills are pretty important in tabletop Shadowrun game. As for combat oriented shadowrun...we already had one, IIRC Microsoft total failure. So I wanted to ask about the nature of the game...as I understand there will be turn based combat situations, well what about the outside of combat world? Would it be possible to avoid combat by using negotiation or etiquete skills etc? Would some tools of trade be available on market only for characters with enought repuation and negotiation/trade skill??? Some info available through interrogation etc?
@binaryravenx - I don't think no one was expecting an "immediate result" as you put it, but what people were expecting was an update on the game much like the one that was just given. I don't think it is asking too much for some information related to this game every few months or so, even if it is just minor stuff.
@Adam Truncale - First of all, please learn what a definition of a "troll" is. Second of all, everyone who have posted any kind of complaint/comment on this have backed up the project, meaning they felt strongly enough about said project to put money into it and invest. Don't disrespect people by name-calling them over a subject that they most certainly have the right to gripe about.
Cliffhanger, thank you very much for the update. I think there was a lot of confusion on this issue and I am happy you cleared it up for us all. I think if this was written in the previously one, we would not even be having this discussion, but I understand that the explanation wasn't added like was intended for some reason. Either way, if I get the key I'll check out the game and see what we may be expecting for SRO.
Never once thought it was spam, in fact I was interested in what it was all about :) But still, SR is what I'm here for after all.
I liked the Key, but the explanation in the email was radically different from the previous update.
Thanks for the rapid fire second update.
I really appreciated the AErena key, especially once I fired it up and got an idea of the quality we'd be seeing from SRO. It's sad that your generosity backfired on you.
nolite te trolls carborundorum.
There are too many people in this world who demand IMMEDIATE results. Thanks for working on this guys. Don't let their impatience shape your opinion of the project. We want what is best for the game. The only time I'll complain is if you announce you've cancelled Shadowrun Online, which with this update, seems like you're still working hard on it. Thanks for the update!
Thank you for the update. I certainly appreciate it and hopefully it will sooth some of the fears others have expressed.
I look forward to receiving my Aerena key so I can see what the interface looks like (first hand) on my computer and on my tablet. Visuals are controls are important parts of the game after all, so any hint to SRO is appreciated.
I am curious about the "skill" approach. In theory it sounds reasonable, but I would very much like to see this explanation expanded on in a future update.
As for missions, how obvious will it be who you are working for? Will there be a legwork phase to find the jobs and to find out whose hiring? Or will be it "Complete mission X for corp"?
I support NeoNet!
And now that you told us the major players, it would be fun if you could release some simple backer images for us to show who we support. It would be nice to look at the forums and visually see who sold their souls to which corp :P
Don't let the trolls ruin your day
I can see why people would think this to be spam but at the same time it's unfortunate that your good will got so much negative feedback. I for one appreciate the free key take no offense to your offer. Please keep up the good work, the honesty, and dedication to your product.