A high end multi-material 3D liquid jet printer. Print circuit boards, flexible materials, and full color.
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Who would've expected that!
If anybody is still interested on news:
In the forum on the next-dynamics homepage some moderator posted a comment as answer to a question about news from the CEO (Because in response to an earlier question about the further proceedings moderator said they are waiting for a response from their CEO)
"Not really. The CEO owns this mess now and has been selling equipment on eBay other people had been working on. Apart from this forum admin account, we have no access or control over anything ND does. The former ND team have moved on to better and bigger things.
This account/forum will no longer be maintained."
So probably this all was too good to be true.
Any news from the NextDYnamics's Team ?
I said it before and I will say it again, if they really build it I will buy one, I would be stupid not to if it performs as they claimed.
But, I won't be laying down any cash before it is reviewed by an independent person or I get to see it in person.
I can see that the head would be €200, it is probably the most expensive part of the machine.
this is really dodgy. either they have a fantastic product or concept in which case even if they aren't quite as far along as they said they were it shouldn't be too hard to refute our allegations, or they need to be persecuted. i'd love for this printer to become a reality, but if it really was yet another fraudulent campaign that almost got away with half a million they, and ideally kickstarter as facilitators, should face the consequences so this trend doesn't tarnish crowdfunding entirely beyond repair.
all these fraudsters who put so much time and effort into intentionally deceiving people are absolute scum, robbing people and destroying a wonderful thing in the process.
KS should persecute them. they make endless amounts of money for virtually no active input, their integrity and reputation is at stake, and from what i understand the guilty party ends up paying legal fees anyway. we as backers sign over our rights through of their slimily constructed, self serving T&Cs, but KS should still be in a position to take legal action against obvious fraud schemes run through their platform. sadly, they're the biggest crooks of all, despite all the sentimental shit they spewed when they registered as a public benefit corporation. they have no interest in benefiting the public or providing any kind of security for backers or doing anything about situations like these, only in protecting themselves legally and raking in laundered protection money from lesser criminals.
Well, I'm not seeing it so dramatically. Maybe it's because I wasn't so extremely eager on this printer. What they claimed looked just very cool and I really thought that this could be a game changer. But...
Surely most of you have or had a grandmother telling the same stories all the time. One of the stories of my grandmother was about a relative of hers who appeared to be a "big inventor". Very often someone stopped by at his place telling that he had a great idea. He would then interrupt that guy: "Wait a minute. Look through this booklet. If you do not find a picture of your idea, go on." The other guy then looked into the booklet, and after a while he would return it saying sadly that he found a picture showing exactly what he meant. Then, the relative of my grandmother's would say: "Inventing things is easy. Making it a product is the difficult part."
So what was the invention here? The technology exists. You can buy a polyjet printer right now. And for some reason, the guys at ND thought that they could make it cheaper. Be honest to yourselves: When you read what they wrote about all the sensors, about their device preventing the nozzle from clogging by sensing the fluid's physical properties, and all that at a price of 200$ for a print head and 5000$ for the whole printer, you have to have thought to yourselves: "Well.... this sounds a bit strange to me." I did. And then I thought to myself: "Well, let's see if they can prove it." And they couldn't. It's that simple. They thought it would be that easy. It turned out it wasn't. If you read their claims and comments from the beginning, you can see that their own picture of it was not so very clear.
So I don't believe in that product. It's a pity. As much as it is a pity that you cannot build a 5-axis CNC milling machine capable of working with steel for 499$. It would be so nice, but sadly this is not realistic. And the guys at ND wore so very confident while apparently having absolutely nothing to justify this confidence that we just thought it might be true. If they showed us what they possibly had, most of us would just have said: "Yeah, well. You just proved that you can do what Stratasys has been doing for decades by now. Nothing more, nothing less". And that's what left after that whole campaign. They've shown us something that Stratasis has been doing for decades! It's as if I would present you a working prototype of a hand-wired electric motor and tell you that I can build electric cars much cheaper than Tesla Motors!
"I think, everyone agrees that the evidence is so strong that one can consider as a fact that they presented fake prints all the time. Maybe not every one"
And therein lies the problem, IMO. They never fell on their swords, they never explained where exactly they were, what the problems were, what the real timeline was, and they continue to remain silent. All of this is damning.
While it is possible that they were pioneers in a new area, and had a raw capability or bits and pieces of the big puzzle, I think it's most likely we won't see anything from them, but rather a licensee, unless they are really stubborn and deaf. If that licensee is one of the big three or four, that means the world is screwed in having the technology as being accessible to the common wo/man for 20 years.
That leaves me in a position with where John is - hoping. Hopefully, they are well fed, not rushed, and can get it perfect before the next launch and to where they can print requested-model demos on demand - live or livestreamed and to where the tech is actually manufacturable, which is another huge leap from having one working prototype.
FDP --> FDM :-)
While I do believe that there was something like an early prototype, I just cannot believe that it ever performed even somehow nearly as advertised. If so, the way they acted would make no sense at all. I think, everyone agrees that the evidence is so strong that one can consider as a fact that they presented fake prints all the time. Maybe not every one. I am willing to believe that the Benchy actually was printed on their device. Well... I'd give it a 50% chance. Assumably they cheated before. With the Benchy there is no strong evidence that they cheated, but also no strong evidence that they didn't. 50/50 I'd say.
Here's what I believe: They have/had a prototype that could print something like showed with the Benchy. It still performs worse than a cheap SLA printer, but there is a proof of concept.
Now imagine yourselves back in a time when FDP wasn't invented. You've just had the idea that you could use molten plastic to print objects. It's quite easy to build a proof-of-concept machine for this. Then you start thinking that you could even work with dual extrusion. With mixing extrusion. That you could reduce the nozzle size down to 0.05mm. To prevent clogging, some self-cleaning mechanisms might be needed.
We all know the gap between a machine somehow extruding some plastic and a state-of-the-art FDM printer. And I think this gap is even much bigger for jetting technology. Remember what they said about sensing viscositiy, temperature, other sensors detecting particles that might clog the nozzles, self-cleaning procedures, remember the claimed life-time of a print head... I'd say, if the design of a mature product that performs as they advertised, is considered a marathon, the they did show us with the Benchy (assumed that this was real) was about the first three km. I can run three km. But I don't extrapolate this ability of mine to claim that I can perform a marathon.
I recently spoke to a supplier of Next Dynamics. He assured me that the project wasn't fake.
He believes that the guys just were rushed to present everything a bit too early.
I hope they still have enough capital to finish the developement of the printer successfully and bring it to market.
bad news for kickstarter backers.
To keep in touch
Facebook group called NDBackers, here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/917853555016347/
Wow - indeed H. Sholten - hilarious - but also, very sad. There really are people who will put thousands of dollars into something and not bother to check up on it ... just as we feared.
Obviously Michael on his own is not statistically significant, but he is evidence nonetheless - that jibes with the theory of ostrich backers.
So it is a VERY good thing that KS finally listened to reason and suspended the campaign, and that we worked so hard to make it happen.
I Believe(TM) in crowdfunding, and the media frenzy that results when a big campaign implodes after taking the money really depresses me.
Imagine the fun they'd have had picking apart all the obvious deceptions in the videos and pics - and again crowdfunding would be labelled a "bad idea" - and all the disgruntled backers saying "I'll never use KS again"....
@Michael Owen - may we respectfully suggest that in future you do some due diligence on your KS pledges? Monitor the comments section - especially for big ticket items, it only need be once a week. We'll all be better off if backers are more alert.
It's telltale that the creators have not reacted at all, by now we should not expect to hear anything from them anymore. They could have send an update to react on the suspension of the campaign. Now we must draw the final conclusion that it was a deliberate scam.
I'm interested to see whether Kickstarter starts a legal case against Next Dynamics or that suspending the campaign is enough for KS. Basically this campaign qualifies for prosecution, which is limited by the fact that the money was not taken yet.
@Michael. You made my day asking on this list "Anyone know why this was booted off." I think your post is genuinely funny. I hope you take no offence, but I think this and "I was really looking forward to getting it" shows clearly how scams can work. A great dream is always stronger than reality.
Wow... There really WERE backers who didn't have a clue! @Michael Owen: This is not meant as an offense, we were asking ourselves if there are some.
Short answer: Because there is strong evidence that this printer doesn't exist at all. Or, at least, only in a very very very early prototype with no proof that it could ever become a product.
Long answer: https://justpaste.it/12pu0
Anyone know why this was booted off. I was really looking forward to getting it.
Someone else also now claims to have what was promised here: http://www.3ders.org/articles/20170130-nano-dimensions-new-pcb-3d-printing-method-improves-reliability-eliminates-soldering.html
@Ante - no doubts, thanks.
I am curious about the XYZ Nobel's beam-steering mechanism
@Andy T - if you still doubt that's xyz resin, look here:
Does that mean i don't get my t-shirt?
@Lukas - maybe it can, but then you likely wouldn't go out of your way to buy XYZ resin, if that's what the bottles really are..
Does anyone have an XYZ Nobel to where they can pull the cover and take a pic of its laser and galvanometer? Does the scanner in that machine move on a gantry or are there two spinning mirrors to do X and Y?
None of this really matters anymore, just that I am still quite curious about the tech.
@Andy T as I wrote earlyer b9Creations slicer can do that also+ you can export the model incluting the raft to a stl, so you could propably print it on anything. it would be posible to even model the brim in meshmixer if needed.
1 day ago...
red331: "Because XYZ Nobel SLA is the only SLA I know of that has the brim function. There could be others but that do but I don't know of one. Formlabs does not have a brim function. The part they showed looks like SLA made and not DLP, DLP would have sharper edges and some pixelation."
@Andy T You've asked which resin that is. It appears to be XYZprinting resin:
... for their Nobel SLA printer:
@Simon - I'm ahead of my time and don't have Facebook ;-) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-3039624/Social-media-exodus-young.html
Some pics of the machine on twitter that I haven't seen in the update or Google set (maybe they're here, haven't looked). They appear to have made an effort to hide the left side and back of the machine from the looks of it. (the following pic disappeared from their twitter feed just now for some reason - no idea why): https://s24.postimg.org/snjx2l7rp/C3_FQPZt_W8_AAQf_C.jpg
Notable are the twin Z-axis stepper motors (the "linear magnetic motors" for accuracy needed) positioned to indicate to me that Z is on a belt drive, just as the X-axis is. https://s24.postimg.org/v8xw7fivp/C3_FOq1_UWIAALr_Zh.jpg (and it looks like the y-axis belt is visible in the slot of that pic, to the left of the linear rail - another "linear magnetic motor". I think you can see a stepper on each side on the bottom of the machine in the other pics), the LCD touch screen to command the machine and the cartridge wells in the top of the machine are missing in action, and the machine is tethered to a USB cable (which could be used to load the models, but they have Wifi to do that, or it could be used to command motion with something like Repetier Host). The covers are missing suggesting either a laser is not in use, or everyone has to wear protective glasses when the machine is running.
According to their Twitter feed, the machine is being shipped somewhere:
I'm guessing off to do damage control with their linear magnetic motor, no cartridges visible, machine - without the covers on it. It'll be interesting to see/hear what comes of it, so please keep your eyes open for further coverage in coming weeks. They actually might be able to do some kind of demo at this point, though it appears to not be with a machine as was described and on offer in the campaign. The big question, also, is if they are using a commercial printhead. You can also see the camera rig off to the right.
Three bottles of resin beside the machine in that pic, not five. The hoses in the back of the machine appear to not have enough of them in the bundle to do six cartridges, which seems to point to a commercial printhead being used. Not sure if anyone can ID the resin source from these pics - who uses that kind of bottle to ship resin? More curious than anything else.
With the avoidance, possibly inadvertent, of showing the left side of the machine guts, the question I have is whether an older Polyjet uses belt drives.
(pics courtesy Twitter)
Did you see that Cindy is in the Facebook group?
Take a look at the layers inside of the support, upper center left cavity. That same pattern should appear on the outer surface of the finished egg, shouldn't it? Can the layers look like that in a Polyjet process - looks to me like an FDM made it and the egg was pushed into it, then the outer surface was sanded to get rid of the layering (I think the layering HAS to be on the outside if it's on the inside). Maybe not, but I am scratching my head to correlate that inner layering with the outside of both the egg and the support.
@ Ante Vukorepa
Agreed that the infill is white (to avoid printing everything in colour as with the other commercial suppliers). However, the colour of the support material at the bottom of the egg is broadly speaking the same colour as the suspicious bits at the edge of the egg on the inside face.
... If that make sense...
@RocketRobot The support on that particular model does not work that way. The white core is the infill, not the support.
@KRS re cut egg.
Playing devil's advocate here for a second: As the egg is built, the surface is just about to curve back on itself, so support material would be required. In the pic, the whitish support is similar to the white core, so what we are seeing could be just that support material laid to support upcoming layers.
Honestly, I just want them to regroup, get some unambiguous, documented and externally checked facts and start their KS again. Get some knowledgeable people to do the PR, but leave the main tech people do what they do best.
The whole campaign feels as if they have been pushed out to KS just too soon... Rabbits caught in the headlights...
And who does a campaign just before Xmas with nobody available over that period... Seriously...
Anyway, once that is in place, THEN, I will reconsider putting money in, probably like a lot of people... But as mentioned below, trust must be restored.
All the best to them if they have a working prototype that can be developed into a product, shame on them if they have tried to fake it until they made it and tried to pull a fast one on us.
To keep in touch
Facebook group called NDBackers, here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/917853555016347/
@Andy T: totally agree with you
@Etienne: We will give our money not for "free", we will be severe, some of us will go there and touch the printer, we will open it and see if it really can do a working machine.
And yes, young engineers loose a lot of reputation here .... and reputation it is something it is hard to regain!!!
@Etienne Everyone has their own interpretation of the facts here and, yes, if these guys truly are talented and hard working engineers, they will get there if it's at all possible and their past acts and omissions do not impede them.
That said, the integrity and trust in the company has been pretty much destroyed, IMO, with Kickstarter's message driving the final nail in their coffin (ND stubbornly refused to do damage control throughout this, including avoiding the suspension by withdrawing the campaign, as many of us begged them to do) - that means ND has to be re-organized and the talented people need to be reassigned so that they can focus on strictly technical matters and not distracted by road tours, press engagements, or any other representative or interactive position on behalf of the company. I also would not want to be them if they seek to move up in any organization - they limited their potential severely in that area, IMO. If the investors force a reorg, yes, everything we wrote is legitimate - the company and its product would be welcomed and trusted, but somebody else needs to be put in that can stand behind everything with integrity and who can communicate effectively and as needed without bullshitting or making grandiose claims that they cannot demonstrate or stand behind.
That said, this was on German television - this was painted as a local poster child of technology and innovation that was a source of pride of the region/city. Now it got suspended for reasons of trust and integrity. "German company" was noted everywhere, as was "from Berlin", as was Fablab, as was Fraunhofer (a premier, world-renowned, R&D organization with impeccable integrity). All of these places and entities were associated with this debacle.
I suspect, because of ND's own egotistical mistakes with reaching into the popular and tech media, worldwide, that the tolerance for such acts, as have been alleged here, by local authorities can't be good due to being in the public eye and that those authorities may feel that their hands are tied in needing their intolerance to be demonstrated to the world - to let it go erodes the integrity and trust of a city, a country and of highly visible organizations - even the integrity of the media that covered the event will be called into question which is a complete disaster for getting any future coverage.
I would not want to be them in the coming weeks or months. Because of the probable scenario I just described, and the magnitude of money involved, the people involved in the issues alleged here may not be able to work on a printer from where they might wind up.
And, to make things even worse, if Straub was duped with the same kind of cartoon progress reports, we saw here, from a continent away and he was merely exercising his exuberance here for what he honestly thought he was bringing to the world, do you think he'll keep feeding them his money? Or would he shut them down, take the IP, and start up a new team to do the job? He went completely silent after flying to the UK.
Any of this.
But, yes, we can still be nice about it. Fortunately nobody lost any money, just time, and, as someone said, chalk it up to an entertainment expense as far as the time spent goes. Nobody "did anything to me" or anyone else, so water under the bridge, lesson learned - do not go on autopilot after funding a campaign, relying only on updates.
I truly do wish them the best of luck. They will likely go through a living hell in the near future. I hope not, but I don't see how they won't.
And in that half cut egg photo linked below by @KRS it seems very stange that the egg isn't centrally placed in the support material cylinder.
The right result - I'm not at all sad, quite the opposite.
Campaigns like this can be extremely corrosive to crowdfunding as a whole, because when they take significant amounts of money, they erode Trust, and even though you can't measure it, Trust is still finite resource.
When they take significant amounts of money - and then fail or just abscond with the funds - the press piles in and and there are headlines about another failed crowd sourced campaign, and plenty of pontificators denouncing crowd-funding as a bad idea --- which reduces the pool of backers, and then all other campaigns suffer.
On the other hand, when a campaign like this is suspended by KS, it restores Trust - which is good for all other campaigns.
So well done everyone - it was hard work, but we did it. Obviously KRS was the catalyst, - thanks again Kristof !
I think the key lesson to learn from this though, is that after whatever triggers events have occurred, that cause closer examination of the campaign by critical backers, at a certain point - a Summary Package is needed, and exactly as we did, critics need to unite behind that summary package.
It seems likely to me that https://justpaste.it/12pu0 was crucial in getting the media to pick up the story, and then once the media picked it up, and the different stories were all over the front page of kicktraq, that may have finally forced Kickstarter into suspending the campaign. So thanks to our mysterious benefactor - I hope you were able to pass on our appreciation @Synvox.
You guys are all soo nice. Every company could be so happy having you as a customer. You are so understanding, so forgiving, so straightforward.
I can't really believe. You wish them luck, you would even still give them your money.
Don't you get it? They f*cked every one of us, lied, have been dishonest, untruthful until the end. To me, Ludwig, Ismail, Alexander and whoever is/was part of the team is on my red list, I will not put one cent of trust into them ever again.
Looking at the half cut egg one can clearly see the white core remains of the cut on the edges. Also the direction of cutting is visible here. Good to have something so obvious in the end. So there is no other explanation for this.
One of the animation tools must have been a buzz saw...
@David Allegedly fake. We don't have facts, just undefended allegations. Only they have your answer.
On the other hand: There was this FDM frog at the very beginning (or even before) the campaign...
@David: This is the 550'000€ question. To be honest, neither way really makes sense to me. There is way too much personal transparency and evidence for them being hard working for it to be a bogus from the beginning. On the other hand, I just don't get it why one should work so hard for something and then throw it away as they did.
What seems most probable to me is that it all started small. With "little white lies". And then it all got out of hands somehow. But still, it is very strange.
@Thorstem You are not the "lonely backer".
We all wanted a machine and I would have gotten a beta machine if they were available. When the beta slot did open up, the risk/reward at that juncture was way too high to pull the trigger.
We are all in the same uncomfortable situation - all in the same boat. We all wanted a machine.
They should have straightened up and withdrawn with their own explanation instead of Kickstarter with theirs. Some of us even begged them to stop and come back when they were ready.
We all wanted them to succeed. You're no different than anyone else here in thinking you are the only one who wanted a different outcome. I still want a printer that does this, even if it means developing an open source one as was suggested here.
@Thorsten you're not alone in that regard.
Thanks to those who answered my question. What I don't understand is, did they only fake the videos, or was the entire concept completely bogus to begin with?
So the platform Kickstarter showed that it is paying attention and is capable to take decision. Good work (even if I am one of the lonly backer who would have preffered another solution)
Im looking forward to see how this story continues... maybe again at Kickstarter... after some more development work. Good luck to Next-Dynamics
@David: No worries, no one has been charged
@Andy T: As I heard, Germany is quite strict in this topic, also.
It was shut down before your card was charged.