Use this space to cheer the creator along, and talk to your fellow backers.
Have a question?
thanks for clarifying these points on data storage and offline capability.
I suppose (that is just a feeling!) that without the discussion here during the last weeks your data handling would be quit different - so thanks to all people committed to aim for better product.
(Nitpicking: you mentioned that one would need to create an acount to transfer / export the local data. That's fine for me, but Article 20 GDPR (data portability) gives the right to receive / transfer all of your data without hindrance - so a need to create an account would actually be outside the pale.)
@Tim, please send a set or two to head-fi for sound impression
@Tim - I am moving at the end of May. Please advise on how to provide a revised address.
@tim I will make my call when I have more information until then I am with you all the way.
While it may suit you to single me out for a refund and leave you alone, I am a backer and will stay as it interests me beyond the product as I have not seen the like of this dynamic before.
I also don’t mind the heat I and others take for the transparency we seek for myself and other backers.
I am sure it is uncomfortable having people holding you accountable and asking the difficult questions. I am sure it is equally uncomfortable reading the facts of our annoyance in how that is taken.
Look at this way, you would have had a nightmare if myself and other had not forced you to disclose and then change your choice to allow people to opt in.
So I am uncomfortable but like others here, keep you accountable and that will help in the long term.
I still don’t understand your communication and project timeline strategy, so simple but seemingly quite a blind spot.
I give you great credit for going out there and creating a product that we all bought into, it’s the way he project is run and how we are treated that has let you down.
Whomever is making these call that have made so many leave needs to reflect a bit.
I wish you success and will keep you accountable like we all should.
Make the product worth the wait.
@tim, looks clear to me👍🏼😏
Thank you all for your recent comments.
@klaus There will be a local copy of your sleep summaries and scores stored on your phone, as well as in the cloud.
@Harold @Lee Thank you! We’re hoping more backers will also chose to share their anonymised data, as it will help us to improve our algorithms over time.
@Lee We’d like to thank our backers for their support throughout our journey and we’re considering how best to do this at the moment.
@Ng The local sleep data will only take up a very small amount of storage space (i.e. not take up more than 1MB in total - over a period of years). Your full EEG from the previous night’s sleep will be uploaded to the cloud anonymously, however if you opt out of sending this data, it will be deleted from your device once the summaries and sleep score are generated. Local storage is the storage on your phone. You are able to change devices (including between iOS and Android) and keep a copy of your data if you choose to create an account on the app. If you have chosen not to create an account, you will not be able to transfer your data to a new device. You are not able to export any data from the app. Data will only be available to export via the API/SDK. We still plan to have integrations with Apple Health and Google Fit, and we will look to release these after launch.
@T Kuipers We’re very sorry to hear you feel this way. We have contacted you via private message to arrange.
@Mark @Ben We’re working to the schedule we published in our last update. We’re due ship the first few units in May, and increasing our shipping through June.
@Cake Our shipping schedule is unaffected by the GDPR. As we are already a trading business, with a website and apps released, our terms and conditions must all be compliant before the deadline. The hardware shipment is unaffected by the GDPR. We hoped our campaign made clear that Kokoon is an intelligent, learning platform, which uses anonymised data to determine what works best to help our users. The more customers that share their anonymised data with us the better as it allows us to improve our algorithms, content, and the experience for everyone.
We have noticed your discontent for some time and we’re sorry we’ve not been able to restore your support in our project. You are of course welcome to a full refund, please let us know if we should arrange one.
@Eyal The headphones will work offline, no functionality is lost while the user’s phone is offline. Data will be collected by user's consent, for improving algorithms only and anonymised. Not opting in will not be punished; it would not be our intention to do so and, in any event, is prohibited under the GDPR.
@Eric @Deepak We have contacted you via private message.
Only two yrs late. Not only do I not even want this thing any longer, in the highly unlikely event this thing ever sees the light of day, the tech will be outdated.
How can I proceed for refund!
I am coming close to pulling the pin. Simple transparency for the backers cost nothing.
What we have learned how this crew operate is in my opinion shady. There was a bigger plan here, shown now by the data collection. All the underhand tactics of larger companies seem to be on display. Say one thing, do another and deal with any negative exposure as we have to. Mine the user, remove functionality, change without notification.
Blatant statements that are not true (beyond delivery dates). Tester said they could not feel the headphones, really? I can feel wind in my face and that is just air. These headphones have weight and are bulky, so not knowing they are there is rubbish.
Shocking they don’t have a mic. Raising the bar indeed.
Well said sir. Who knows what will transpire.
by my last point, I meant that users who don't/can't afford to share their data should still be able to enjoy the improved algorithm made available by users who did share their data, if that makes more sense...
1. Kokoon should work offline (full functionality including learning from user's own data history), for as long as the user chooses to be offline (days, weeks, months, years).
2. Backing up should be to the user's own cloud service provider (google drive, dropbox, etc.) and encrypted.
3. Only by user's consent, for improving algorithms by machine learning and nothing else, data may be sent by the user to kokoon's cloud servers after being anonymized and encrypted.
4. Not opting in to share self data should not be punished by not allowing access to improved algorithmics from data of users who did opt in.
All these delays and promises are never ending. I would also like to request a refund for my part.
@Cake (and @Kokoon team) : The comment of Cake is exactly why I do not want the headphones anymore, exactly the reason I should not have backed Kokoon and exactly the reason I want my money back. Kokoon did not respond to my message or comment yet.
@kokoon team: Please respond to my commend and/or message and please refund me.
No way the first set will be delivered before June.
The scrabbling to recode the software to align to GDPR and getting the T&Cs updated (because they know they will be heavily scrutinised) is another pickle this band are facing.
If like me you are thousands behind others, set you sights for thanksgiving or Christmas.
Ironically I wrote the same in 2016 and 2017 I think. Awkward!
The one thing we can trust in is a finger in the air date that will can add to the others.
We all wish it was not this way but it’s how they role.
Personally, I hope we get further detail on data collection and modes before delivery as I don’t trust them not to have another TADA moment of where did they come from or get dropped?
We have forced a sneaky collection of data out into the open and changed it. It’s this lack of transparency and the ugly discoveries that I struggle with, I expect the lies on delivery dates to continue for s while.
After 3 years waiting for delivery i think it is time to receive a final schedule till end of production and with a definitie date on which i will receive the headphone. So no more updates etc. Just a definite schedule!!!!!
Can we have a delivery update ???
Dear Kokoon team. I would like to request a refund.
I do not feel comfortable how you handled the storing of the data, especially because a few years back you have promised not to do so. Several times Kokoon showed not to be a company who can be trusted with issues like this. You turned to be the kind of company I do not want to back.
Thanks Tim for clarifying. I am fine with an opt-in cloud storage and providing data for improvements, i was mainly concerned with the functionality while offline and it seems to remain intact. As long as these headphones will function in their primary capacity with no internet or servers I am happy.
Is there any chance you could provide a spare battery along with each Kokoon? The shipping cost of a replacement would likely dwarf the battery costs and it would be a nice gesture for your backers.
Been a disappointed investor here since launch. I was already deeply annoyed by the huge delays, the lack of information (both here and when contacted directly) and the fact that there was a riskless pre-sale offering the headphones for the same price I paid as investor.
The data in the cloud stuff is enough for me though. Please can you let me know how I can get a refund
I think the team don’t recognise how badly they look in the industry due to the delays and here to many backers.
I see this demonstrated in how they engage us, drip fed facts, provided unrealistic dates, hidden functionality, removed functionality.
While some people have no concern or limited concern over these matters, many do, it’s just not how companies operate. Purposeful intent to shield functionality for so long is a decision, one of many arguably exceptionally poor ones.
I don’t see these shipping soon, and I am increasingly coming to a position I don’t want what I think the product is now as I don’t trust them.
In the grand scheme, we have stumped up the cash, we are expendable, the product will ship, they will tow the line with regulations and our journey will end.
The product may be well met and they can talk about raising the bar but we know and they will not care.
Early April 2018 no clearing to shipping.
@ Chris Weber
One of my problems is that Kokoon will change their terms of (not)storing data just as quickly as with other things they promised the last few years.
Although I still think the headphones (hardware) will be great, I simply lost my trust in kokoon as a company. I think it is great they have not given up and came this far, but they also have lied to us several times, changed their opinion and device itself. Simply put, if I knew this on forehand I would not have backed a company like this, how awesome the device.
Please kindly answer the following questions:
* How much space does "local Sleep data" require?
* If my phone change, can I transfer the "local sleep data" between them (and how about from ios to android or vice versa)
* Kokoon App integration (what is included) with (Apple Health or Google fit)
* Different between "local storage" and "cloud storage"?
* Can I export (local or clould) data to my computer?
I can easily live with this latest explanation from Tim.
Bring on the Devices !!!!!
@tim Thank you for the update. Not shure what to think of it though. I am sure what to think of the road towards your comment..
In your comment you explain that saving data on the servers is optional and anonimous. Have I understood this correctly?
however, you also state that: "Storing this data in the cloud will enable the user to view sleep history data, score audio for its effectiveness and enhance our recommendation algorithms for audio content."
How can the stored data be anonimous and be used by a user separately, for example his history sleep data?
Interesting watching Mark Zuckerberg agree the principles of GDPR need to be adopted in the US in an opt in model.
Rough day at the office for him, great day for transparency and individuals privacy and rights.
So glad the community here rallied to make this company rethink and give us the choice to optional. Required to be in, opt out is over, opt in is ethically right, and if we have to push and take heat for that, I am up for that.
@Tim, thanks for the clarity. I've got no problem passing the data on. Hopefully it helps develop the product more over time. Great to know it will function offline. That always helps.
@tim echo Klaus, thank you for the update this is much clearer.
I look forward to the detail before GDPR go live.
thanks for the follow up.
Could you explain while you'll store sleep history (summaries and scores) only in the cloud instead of storing it local? It shouldn't be a large amout of data, or?
Thank you for your patience while we put together a response to your questions.
The headphones do not need an active internet connection in order to use the EEG sleep sensing capabilities and listen to audio (as long as the audio is stored locally on your mobile device). Your mobile device will store a local copy of your sleep data, until it is able to establish a web connection.
We still have some work to do, however we will be compliant in time for the deadline.
While we were originally going to store all customer’s anonymised sleep data (which does not fall under the remit of GDPR, as anonymised data is not considered personal data), after reviewing your comments and concerns, we have opted instead to make sending this anonymised sleep data optional. Sleep summaries and scores will be generated locally (after a sleep session) and will be stored in the cloud, but only if the user gives consent to do so.
Storing this data in the cloud will enable the user to view sleep history data, score audio for its effectiveness and enhance our recommendation algorithms for audio content. Any data stored will only be used for the functions/features of the app.
Storing of your data will not be monetised by either forcing premium subscriptions for access or by selling this data to third parties.
We may ask a user for permission for other data to be collected if it can be used to improve performance of the app and its features. This may vary over time.
It’s all just so unclear as to what the device does by design against how it was portrayed.
While I understand the frustration of backers who feel other backers bringing up questions about data collection and use to the creator can be sen as can contributing to addition delays, no backer who raises these points wants to have to spend there time pushing for this in formation at this stage.
The responsibility for all delays is with the creators who know about the operational modes, data collection requirements and regulations.
The fact the creators are not being straight with delivery dates, functionality and data collection, simply being high level, selective and slow again is not on any backer.
At this point, if you got the headphones, we still don’t know if they will work without data collection, regardless of what it collects.
I share the frustrations and don’t blame backers who seek transparency.
Accountability is with the creators so the frustration needs to be positioned to them in my opinions, going after backers who ask questions that should have been answered by the creators is misdirected. I do respect your view, I am one of those backers and I will protect myself and other by asking questions. I see it is reasonable to do so as the expected way of the creator providing the information is need to know and we don’t in their eye it seems unless we force it out.
I agree with Mark Gray on this.
Monitoring for the sleep pattern is important yet sending of information at a constant flow is not acceptable. It should be an optional upload at the end user’s discretion.
It was shown as a bluetooth link to the phone and not beyond.
Of course, if the hardware doesn't work at all without data collection, then I'll be joining the throngs demanding a refund, but I suspect it's only the EEG portion that needs data collection, and there's a good chance I won't be using that anyway.
The headband on my Bose headphones just fell apart, so I'm now without decent headphones until these ship. :(
My personal viewpoint - right now, backers shouldn't be giving Kokoon any excuses to introduce further delays. That includes GDPR. The simple solution to this problem is to concentrate only upon completing and shipping the hardware. Providing the hardware works, features that require the app and data collection can be enabled later.
Almost 3 years and I'm still alive to wait the product. If I knew that before I contribute this campaign, I don't think I post this comment now.
Thank you Dirk.
FWIW, I just installed the Kokoon app for iOS. It doesn't display any terms of service but only gives you two options: "Discover more" (a link to the website) and "Connection Help". The latter displays a 3-step set of instructions which you can't follow without having the actual device. So not much to see there yet.
For all those not under GDPR, think long and hard about what you are surrendering.
Thanks @Klaus. Very helpful.
My thought is that as the GDPR deadline is imminent end of May and has enforceable fines, we will see clarity ahead of GDPR enforcement.
As the delivery dates offered in the past such as the 208 Chinese New Year make zero sense of ever being able to ship as the last update says they are working on privacy, distrust in the latest shipping dates are in tatters. How can any one trust them?
I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that I am the product, the headphones the conduit and the data is the prize.
If there are not options to opt out of data collection I will not be able to use these in certain circumstances and actually would not have signed up to back in the first place.
After three years, I may have to pull the pin due to these hidden functionalities and possible dependencies.
BTW - since a few days there is a Kokoon app, at least at Google Play.
According to the app screen shots, it demands a login, which requires accepting terms and privacy settings. Actually I never came (back) to this page to try a login, but the terms in the app link to standard shopping terms and the privacy notice is a standard privacy notice used for web sites. Nothing is really related to Kokoon's specific functions nor it's use of data.
The app (which will give you numbers for body and mind recharge ... yepp, that's sleep science) has - according to the screen shots - no mentions of data use or any function which would need a data connection IMHO (but maybe the white noise will be specially produced for every user on a dedicated server). The app author is a London based Limited, so it will fall into the scope of the GDPR in any case. Until now, the requested terms are not in compliance with GDPR, but of course this is still 5 weeks ahead.
I would not be surprised if there are more and more delays. I think they should just bite the bullet and guarantee that they will start shipping by June 2020.
A far more realistic timeline for these people. At least, we would be pleasantly surprised should they manage a miracle and start shipping in 2019. On the other hand, a failure to ship by the end of 2020 is a deal breaker for me.
Please show us the headphones! Do they exist? I simply can't believe this debate on the collection of data and privacy is a new issue to you. Is this another try to an ultimate delay? I still hope backers will recieve their kokoons within a few weeks, but I wonder if there is any room for optimism left...
(@Cake - my thoughts)
@Tim, being able to use these without a data connection is an absolute must.
Waring is auto corrected to eating, who knew!
@tim as I backed this project in good faith with not disclosure of any data collection, my use is for a boat, away for weeks at a time with no coverage of Wi-fi or ability to speak to any other device to download data too. The modes of use have to be clearly explained.
As promised dates of delivery have passed, it is reasonable to conclude you must have already have all the data use and user explanations prepared yet you state this is being done now.
It does not correlate, only confirms you were never ready with either the device or the data collection information. When were you going to tell us?
Please correct me if I am wrong, how could you have released the devices to us without the materials you are currently working on at this point less that one month before GDPR goes live? Hi
What we backed and what we are getting is different in timeline, less functionality and different functionality.
Please advise what else we are going to find, it is so eating having to eek this out and be drip fed information.
Be straight and transparent.
If there is no mode that works for me, like how it is explained in the original pitch, I may be forced to request a refund.
@ Tim +1 on the device working offline, as it should.
@Tim. Please include if and how the device works offline. Thank you.
Hi all. Thanks for your recent posts.
We understand data protection and privacy is an important and sensitive topic. To make sure everyone is properly informed, we're putting together more information on our data processes now and we'll post it shortly. Sorry for the delay in responding, we're taking the time to make sure we address this properly, and our response accurately reflects the work we've been doing recently in relation to the GDPR. As part of our GDPR compliance, we will also be contacting our backers and customer base with information on the impact of the GDPR and how we'll be handling customer data in the near future.
I find it unbelievable that anyone is still surprised by “new developments” on this project.
Lack of integrity has been the earmark of this project from the first promotional video. Why would anyone think that would change?