by Jasco Games
Actually three of them do but that's only my KS list (I was trying to compare apples to apples). Want me to dig into my gaming shelf? You're making a false point. First you claim the game has to be a "board" game then you try to justify the shuffle amount. Well, which is it? Just because a game is a board game that doesn't automatically indicate that there's little shuffling. If the whole point was shuffling then being a board game is moot as there are plenty of board games that require a high amount of shuffling.
Also, you keep passing over the other issue that I bought up. In fact you skipped over it twice now. 270 cards warp over time, ESPECIALLY IN HIGH HUMIDITY AREAS. Do you not care about the longevity of your game? The warping has nothing to do with shuffling the warping happens longways.
Clearly this company has fed you some sales pitch and you went for it. If you want to believe 270 is the bees knees then go ahead and wait for the backlash.
I'll trust your expertise Jasco. I thought we'd have to shuffle our player decks plenty though (or is that not the case?).
Thanks for the responses!
270 is what we were quoted by the printer, and this was based on what they normally print for board game cards. The printer we are using is the same printer for major popular board games, and we trust their industry standard quote. We are still looking at other options, and if it's feasible, we intend to upgrade. Even if we stick to 270, it is still good quality based on the core and coating. They are also treated for weather, such as humidity.
Only 2 of the "higher-quality" games you quoted have components other than dice and cards. Monsters & Maidens come with 5 cards total in the entire game, and is classified as a dice game. As mentioned, 300+ card stock is usually reserved for card games that require an extensive amount of shuffling, or for games like Monsters & Maidens, where you can afford to have a higher quality card because, outside of dice, that's the only other component in the game.
Upgrading is an option we're looking at, but if you are still dissatisfied with our decision, you can always sleeve your cards to prolong their longevity.
@Jasco, of course the core matters. I never said it didn't. The best cards I've ever played with are black core 300gsm with linen finish. However the black, blue, grey, etc core refers to how opaque the core of the card is. It has nothing to do with thickness. The thickness of the card is based off all three layers.
"We're using the standard-industry card stock for board game cards"
No you're not. I don't have a single quality board game that uses 270. They are all 300 or higher. The only 270 games I've gotten are cheap runs off kickstarter. Hunters of Arcfall, Incredibrawl (despite them lying about the 300 upgrade), Fairy Mischief and Villages (good games but low quality). All of these cards are horrible. They are all pretty warped now and no one in my house is rough with cards. Even the sample photos from some of these projects show cards that are already warped and can't lay flat any more.
Games that have used 300gsm or higher (here on KS), Dwarven Miner, Ancient Terrible Things, Pig Pen, Monsters & Maidens, Emu Ranchers, Pixel Lincoln, Flippin Fruit, Miskatonic School for Girls.
Granted some aren't "board" games.
btw, the company I work for does all their own printing. Documentation, product boxes, blister packs, ***cards***, various cardboard pieces...so on and so on. I have tools that measure stock thickness. We don't outsource anything.
The core inside the cards matter. Blue core is higher quality than white core. We're using the standard-industry card stock for board game cards, so if you have specific examples of what you're referring to, that would help us know what you were expecting.
Yeah... I was assuming it would be the same card stock used for UFS. Is there that large of a cost difference? I'm sure the 270 is cheaper... but if it's not a big difference, then I'd strongly suggest upgrading to the 305 before you send the files to the printer. Good quality is key to long term success with this product!
Ok as in the graphics I believe. Thanks @Jasco for the answer!
To whoever is commenting for Jasco,
The weak cards I mentioned below also have a core. Again, they warp over time, especially in high humidity areas.
This is very disappointing.
Limited edition dice have numbers, the game dice have symbols
270 is only flimsy if the cards have no core. Ours have a core, as well a UV coating which adds to the thickness. We don't need as high GSM in the board game cards because there is not as much shuffling required as in a trading card game or a poker game. UFS uses 305 GSM.
Hopefully the colors are approved (looks great in my opinion) and we can finally get the game finished and shipped. Yes it would be better to give time to players play this game before launching an expansion.
@Jasco How does the limited edition dice differ from the game dice?
Aww, those look adorable! Thanks for sharing!
Don't know card types but what type of game has 270 GSM ? Are they really that weak ?
I understand how as a company you want to promote your product and to be successful, but I would think it would be a better policy to keep things under the vest and let your product create the momentum. Don't want to be a killjoy and totally wish mega hits it out of the park, but I personally need the game sell it self before I open my wallet to expansions. Again the reason for me posting is that I don't even have the game and like others are waiting to receive it. Not trying to be negative but just letting you know how I feel about future releases before actually having the base game.
Just saw the rules Justin posted in the main comments. Seems like you are already looking into something closer to my thought than what the old video showed (which is awesome!). I still hope the two routes are based on the actual levels. That would be amazing!
@Jasco. Here is a link to my most recent comment on it which includes links to the files for it. This was for making tiles... But it could easily be done in card form instead! It would be a great way to make it feel like you are progressing through the levels and has good expansion possibilities.
We follow the basic business plan of any successful company, which is to plan ahead. If game companies sat around and twiddled their thumbs until 1 game was released before they started working on future games, the companies would not survive. The momentum has to be there, and we built the base game with MM2 in mind. That is why the board game is modular to allow you to add the expansions to it.
270? That's horrible. Those will warp over time. Especially for people in high humidity areas.
For those unfamiliar with stock thickness. Normal poker playing cards are 300-320. MTG uses 300. These are going to be 270. Those are pretty flimsy. Anything less than 280 is usually matched with very unhappy folks. I can point people in the direction of unhappy kickstarter comment sections for project creators who choose 280 and below.
Is that what you use for UFS? I've never seen those cards of yours.
I really don't like how the creators are already pushing for expansions when , we don't have the base game and second how this game is going to be. This stuff turns me off and is starting to make me k s burnt out.
The card stock is 270 GSM bluecore, 63 X 88 mm, semi-gloss coating, rounded corners
@Jacso. I meant to ask this ages ages. What's the card stock/finish?
The bases are quite sturdy and shouldn't loosen, but if they do over time, you can use Sticky Tack to make them more secure. We will try to make them fit inside the box without having to disassemble them every time, but we won't know for sure how much space is available until after the white sample.
Please link to the challenge tile idea you had.
Unlike the rough prototypes, the action cards look very nice and they DO have artwork :)
@Snycher---Stands will be included for each miniature.
As long as you finish the game and ship it before you ask for more money in another Kickstarter, yous should be good. After Mighty No. 9 had a second funding campaign, people were not happy.
Also, please answer questions on the main comments tab.
I second Brets question. Did you mean to imply that we have to disassemble every base every time we put the game away?
Are there going to stands for each mini in the box?
Thanks for the response Jasco!
So if the minis just snap into the bases is there any concern of them loosening over time? Are they pretty solid once attached? Also... when you say consolidating space in the box... does that mean we will need to dissemble them after each play to fit in the box? That would be a pain and would make me even more worried about loosening over time. (the minis do look great though so good work there!)
So I guess that rules out the challenge tile idea I proposed way back when... but did you use that type of idea when making the new cards? Because that would be awesome! I can link the idea again if you can't find it.
For adding the middle section on the action cards... Are you worried they are going to get too cluttered now? As is... the few proto type cards I've seen posted have been text heavy with little artwork. I'm hoping that is just because they are prototypes for layout etc and will have cool artwork to go along with them. I understand showing us DOES rely on approvals for this one (artwork etc) but it'd be cool to know your thoughts/design intent in the meantime
Using the white sample, we are going to do our best to make sure all the components fit comfortably back into the box after being played and sleeved.
Thank you for the suggestion! That is something we have considered and it may be a likely option in the future.
The miniatures are encased in individual plastic bags to preserve the paint job. For consolidating space inside the box, they are not attached to the stands, but they are very easy to attach. No glue or adhesive is required, they just pop right in.
We do not plan on releasing the MM2 KS until after this one has been completely fulfilled.
To address the general inquiry on rules, the core mechanics have not changed, but we've made some adjustments. For example, the dice have symbols on every side now, no numbers. We've changed Challenges to be on a card rather than a token to fit more information. We added a middle section to the action cards that are specifically for boss battles.
If you have specific rules questions, please ask away and we'll be more than happy to address them!
"...make sure all the components fit comfortably..."
Fit comfortably is a very relative term, do you mean when vacuum sealed from the factory or after it's been opened, put together, and played with? I would love it if there was extra room for the cards after being sleeved.
You'd be one of the best ever if after I opened it, opened the add ons, sleeved all the cards, played it, etc... then it fit neatly back all in the original box, no extra storage needed.
Very nice! These colors look great!
re: expansion, I think doing each game separate might be a bit ambitious? Have you considered doing them in chunks, like a single expansion covering both 2 and 3, and one covering 4-6, etc, not necessarily containing all the RMs from each game?
Other than Elect Man looking a little bug eyed...they look good.
The million dollar question still remains. What's going on with game play? As Brett has mentioned many times, there's no reason you can't discuss game play or mechanics. You guys are just shoveling excuses.
I agree with you Brett that they could discuss the mechanics and what changes they made. It sounds like it will be about 2 weeks before we get the rules now. With these changes to clear up some confusion on the cards. Better now than after the game comes out.
I think we are looking at about 3 months before we get the game in out hands.
Overall a nice update and I'm very happy about the portion on the MM2 expansion (especially lessons learned part). This still seems a little lacking in information or a real time table for this MM1 game though. A few questions about it.
1) So are the minis not going to come attached to their bases? I'd much prefer they come attached
2) Any reason you can't discuss the rules even without a fully approved rulebook? Surely you could discuss mechanics... or any ideas/changes you have made since the video way back when.
3) Can we get a detailed estimated timeline for delivery? For example...
X weeks for final approvals
X weeks for production
X weeks to be shipped to distribution centers
1 week to get from centers to us
X weeks of fluff/contingency
For a delivery date of....
and lastly... please please please don't launch the MM2 KS until this one is delivered. That can be a kiss of death for it.
Lemme stop you at the beginning first;
No one gives two large poos about your other game right now UFS. Even if they think they do; you have MANY channels to give that information out. Wonderful, stupendous, we are glad you have another way to make money. That isn't what we care about on the page about the board game. If I wanted to know UFS information.. I would check out the UFS page.
The board game information page should be primarily about... the board game. You and your PR team who don't understand that have dropped the ball continuously.
A week after promising an update we get an update. Fine. I guess you guys gotta push your word to the limit. Please feel free. You have the entire rest of the time with this game, so why not now?
Am I frustrated? A bit. This update buys again.. a small amount of wiggle room for you to impress me. Sadly, the figures look small, fragile, and the stands I hope do not break. These are inconsequential, however, since we do not have a date in which it will be in our hands. Right now if you were to ask me when it will be here.. I could only guess September/ October as you have still got at least a few approvals (even though you are rushing production.. which might blow up in your face but that is your choice.. again I don't care as long as you get me the game more on the sooner than later), and don't even have your box confirmed ready to go.
Please take your last paragraph to heart. Learn how Tiny Epic Galaxies/Kingdoms/ many many other KSes have and HAVE YOUR WORK MOSTLY DONE before making promises you cannot keep.
Otherwise, even if you do do another KS.. I won't be there for it. Many others will, who have been burned in this process, will not either.