Funded! This project was successfully funded on November 29, 2012.

Update #4

Sui Generic?

61 comments
1 like

Here's a quick update in response to some of the opinions that seem to have formed regarding our game. We are simply expressing some of our thoughts here.

Yes, you start the game as an anonymous villager. The whole point here is that you create your own character and write your own story. If you want to play a named hero with a rich background, predefined personality and a clear mission ahead, then you're looking at the wrong game. Personally, we feel completely alienated from such characters.

Yes, your character does turn out to be special. If you weren't special you wouldn't stand a chance. And here comes a spoiler. Rather than providing you with this astounding power to record moments in time and return to them whenever you please (read save/load) so that you may win every battle, eventually, even by pure chance; we thought it better for it to be an element of the story. We don't just brush over this as an every day "respawn" or other mechanic. Also, to quote our project page, "not as vague mythology but actual chains of events leading to the current situation".

Yes, our world is under duress, you won't be picking daisies. As for a looming threat, you may have no idea what it is until it's too late. Nothing is as it seems. There is no evil in our world. There may be lack of scruples, ruthlessness or just genuine oversight, but motives are often complex and valid to those who hold them.

What you should be paying attention to when reading our brief summary of the premise are the "ifs" and "buts". We dislike linear story, we hate linear story, no, we truly despise linear story. If you asked us what is as pleasant as being poked in the eye, we'd have to answer "linear story".

We have not given you a story. We have intentionally lured you into thinking of this as a fairly typical fantasy RPG. Guess what? We don't like those either. We are of a skeptical nature and when faced with the usual fantasy claptrap, much like an inquisitive child, our answer is simply "but why?". There is lots of because in our world. We have taken what appears to be generic fantasy and given it a whole new twist. A lot of effort has gone into this and to reveal it would be to throw it all away. We hold it more dear than the funds we are trying to raise. If by not revealing it we fail in securing your support, then so be it.

We have been asked about character interactions and such. Well, sometimes we want to chat and sometimes we just want to kill stuff. Must be those hormones. Thing is, when the latter mood takes us, and some whining NPC decides to illustrate their sensitive nature to us, the solution is clear: smack 'em in the gob, throw 'em in the river, then perhaps evaluate whether their home looks to be a suitable place to store our booty. If this errant behaviour should upset someone, well, let them come. That, to us, is role playing. What we tend to be presented with in "games with choices" is something like this:

  1) Help the distressed peasant now
  2) Help the distressed peasant later
  3) Help the distressed peasant reluctantly

That is not role playing. We don't know what it is, but we don't like it.

You may encounter characters with sunny dispositions that are not always genuine and heartfelt. You may find yourself trying to divine your interlocutor's true intent, hopefully you are well versed in the arts of subtlety and sarcasm. You may also encounter characters with good or even noble intentions, and yet these intentions may not be in your best interests. Our game will certainly feature moral dilemmas and ambiguities.


Undoubtedly much of what we say sounds familiar and doesn't strike you as original, but perhaps it has at least conveyed something of our ethos. Take home what you will.


Big thanks to everyone who is supporting us.

Much love,

The Bare Mettle team

Fawzi Menkhour likes this update.

Comments

    1. Missing_small

      Creator Sean on November 28, 2012

      Sounds great, I wish I could write for something such as this :)

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      Creator Grommy on November 26, 2012

      Wow I love your attitude, would be a real shame if we didn't give you the chance to act on it and create an amazing game out of it :) Keep it up and good luck!

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      Creator Sangster on November 23, 2012

      The more I read the more I love what I'm reading. Every update makes me want to up my pledge further, but I'm really not in a position to do it. If I were rich I'd damn well fund this thing myself twice over then stay the hell out of your way so you could make the game you envisage exactly as you see it.

      Thank you for your admirable ethos. Good luck!

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      Creator Nubcheese on November 14, 2012

      Love what I'm seeing and reading, keep it up!

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      Creator Danny Angelo Carminati Grein on November 9, 2012

      Dont change your view of the game, it is what is missing in the middle of a bunch of copycat games.

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      Creator jon on November 8, 2012

      Well i for one like everything I've seen so far and I'm glad you're not giving away spoilers, I've seen enough to know that the game will be well worth my money as long as you stick to the plan you have outlined and the engine is as good as it looks in the videos
      best of luck, hope it gets funded

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      Creator Thinkpadius on November 8, 2012

      @Bare Mettle Team

      I invested in this game and I love where it's going and what you want to do with it. You've created an interesting and fluid game creation engine, your physics system looks great and it seems like we're going to see a cool medieval fantasy RPG.

      But one thing that comes across from this update and from some of your comments below is that you *resent* having to share information with us *on* kickstarter.com, that we on kickstarter are an after thought, and that we should do all the background research work ourselves.

      Maybe it's a language barrier, but it comes across as a defensive and unprofessional posture to take. If you're not ready to put 100% into your kickstarter pitch then don't do it. Wait until you are ready.

      I don't think I'm the only person who thinks this way either. Commenters below also believe they shouldn't have to go to a wiki or a forum somewhere else to get answers to FAQs that you've answered before. If you feel you've answered all these questions before then post the answers in the FAQ on the kickstarter page!

      Likewise, kickstarters are interested in what you've done and what you want to the game to become. We know you can't keep all your promises but we expect you to have a good idea about what you can reasonably achieve. If you don't know that enough to make certain commitments then you're going to have to answer a lot more questions.

      In your post you wrote:

      /
      We have taken what appears to be generic fantasy and given it a whole new twist. A lot of effort has gone into this and to reveal it would be to throw it all away. We hold it more dear than the funds we are trying to raise. If by not revealing it we fail in securing your support, then so be it.
      /

      To a lot of people who are giving their money, that is a hard pill to swallow. But there are a lot of us willing to give money in good faith *if you mention this from the beginning.* Investors need to know that there are things you're not saying, and why you're not saying it.

      I hope these comments give you a good idea about how I and some others are perceiving your kickstarter campaign.

      best.

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      Creator crpgnut on November 8, 2012

      Over at RPGWatch, people are starting to compare what's being said about this game with Mount and Blade, which is a glorified medieval, tactical combat simulator, at least in my opinion. I don't get that vibe when reading about Sui Generis. It sounds like you're going to have a fairly robust magic system, for one thing. Could you give rough percentages of how much time is spent in exploration, conversations, training, etc, along with combat. I hate combat-heavy games, so I really need to know.

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      Creator Atarun on November 8, 2012

      @Lami: +42! :)

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      Creator Lami on November 8, 2012

      I think I begin to understand how this game would work and I like what it looks like. From various hints it seems there is no story the way it is understood. There is a world with its events, which reacts to your actions. Therefore, story is driven by your actions. Many games claim this, but in reality, you are following story written by devs. I don't mind predefined stories, if they are well written - I often say I play the games instead of reading books. If they manage to implement this, well, wow. It is not easy task, it is damn hard one. But I saw the engine - it was not easy either and the results are there.

      On the other hand, I agree the informations are hidden well. Do update main page with key points from updates and other replies. People may have other things to do than look for scattered info. And for the best, put it into first 2 paragraphs. You can't go wrong with making info about your game easier to find. And you will see us stop complaining. Um, scratch it. You will see us complaining about other things ;)

    11. Avatar200200.small

      Creator Atarun on November 8, 2012

      @BME: I'm sorry you feel barraged by negativity and even more that I involuntarily took part in it.
      Let me tell you that the team behind Malevolence (especially the main author) faced very harsh criticism as well. You are not alone in that respect, unfortunately. Pretty much anyone who ever puts anything online has to put up with harsh criticism, hate and trolling.
      That said, my experience on Kickstarter leads me to believe that directing people to a forum for more details is an awful idea. People who aren't yet sure whether to back your project or not will most likely not go out of their way to find information about it (often they will not read all the updates, sometimes not even the entire home page, surely not most of the comments, forget about external websites). You need to convey your vision in the pitch video and on the home page, because most people will stop at that and will never back if they do not like what they find there, no matter how awesome your wiki or forum (that they'll never see) is.

      Also, you said "Consider also that everything we say here is set in stone, we have to be very careful about what we promise and what we reveal." I happen to believe that if you tell people "We are considering option A, B and C," very few people will get upset if you end up with any of them or even with D after careful consideration. And let's face it: those few people will get upset anyway, no matter what you do. ;)

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      Creator Chris on November 8, 2012

      Screw being professional. Professional is for the baby boomers. New age of people like to see that developers are human, and enjoying what they are doing.

    13. Avatar.small

      Creator Christian Syska on November 8, 2012

      @Bare Mettle:
      "Our intention is for our game to be all about discovery and learning that things are not what they seem or what you expect."
      That is great. That is awesome, if it's done well. But it's something you must communicate to the people. I understand that you don't want to spoil their discovery and surprise, and nobody wants you to. But acting like your game is typical RPG number 10000 until the player learns that it's not when he finally plays is not going to work, because then people will not even be interested in your game and won't discover the "things are not what they seem". That has nothing to do with Kickstarter, it would be the same if you sold the finished game from your website, on Amazon or elsewhere.

      Also, I think when you expect people to back your tech and ideas with money, it would be nice to provide them with important information about your game without them having to dig through your forum, at least the big stuff like Blackstaff has shown examples of.

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      Creator GhanBuriGhan - WOOS Wose on November 8, 2012

      @Madoc - Just two things: Many of the questions you have answered are answered somewhere in the comments - people will not see those. Also I think many questions both on the comments and in your forum do remain unanswered. It's a lot but being ther to answer (and answer again) is very important. You may not have expected this but that IS a central part of the KS process. Secondly: If you think you have received harsh questions and criticism - no you haven't. I can only assume you have not been on the internet much or not on the CRPG sites. RPG fans are grumpy old men. Welcome to our world :-D
      So, overall I would say things are going well for you.

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      Creator Wally on November 8, 2012

      Thank you for your thoughtful response. Currently less than 10% of your backers are registered for the forums when 100% are here on kickstarter. I fear your chosen form of conveying your vision to your backers and answering their questions may fail. Many backers don't want to register for the 30 or so forums that kickstarting devs tell them to go to. Many backers even unsubscribe to the updates.

      I've read your FAQs and redirected many peoples questions to them. I visited your forum and website before even pledging. I chose to pledge because I believe you are able to create something awesome with what you've presented. It is not the same for many other backers. I'm looking forward to following this project whether is succeeds or not (which I believe it will).

      Normally I don't make comments like this, as I believe it is counter-productive to a successful kickstarter. A comments section should be full of praise and questions to help a project succeed. Thanks again for the response. :)

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      Creator Blackstaff The Unknown Obsidian Order on November 8, 2012

      "And we are eagerly waiting for these new features" Shall I say before the next wave of skepticism come in :)

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      Creator Bare Mettle Entertainment on November 8, 2012

      Christian Syska: "How you can intentionally make people think your game is unoriginal and generic when it is supposedly not is beyond me"

      We're only reiterating and stressing the point here, we've already said this. We never wanted this to be so explicit. We certainly didn't design our game with Kickstarter in mind, we designed it with the player in mind; long before we ever knew about Kickstarter, largerly before it even existed. You need to put our intentions into context. It's unfortunate in this context, that much is obvious. Our intention is for our game to be all about discovery and learning that things are not what they seem or what you expect.

      Malevolence is a great game with original features, clearly the developer has done a fantastic job in interacting with the community. However it is narrower in scope than what we are doing here and isn't trying to do as many things differently as we are. Most people don't see precedents in much of what we're proposing. What I have not seen in Malevolence is the volume of harsh criticism and complaints we have been receiving and frankly it can be very demotivating.

      We have received hundreds of complex questions regarding many, many aspects of the game. We have answered many of these questions in depth and then been confronted with the next wave of skeptics asking them all over again. We are doing what we can to provide more information and to do so in a compelling way. Communities build wikis that still fail to satisfy everyones' questions. If you had read our FAQ or previous updates you would know that we asked people to use our forums so that we can indeed build a larger body of information that may answer many peoples' specific questions. You would have found what Blackstaff quoted there too. As said before, even if it was possible, we don't believe gigantic walls of text that carefully explain every detail of our game would be very enticing to the average Kickstarter.

      Typically games are given with brief presentations to a trusting consumer. We can't get away with that. We are trying convey our vision, it's not a simple one to convey. This for us is a challenging task. We're clearly not very marketing savvy. If we used buzzwords then we're honestly not aware of it. It saddens us that people are still unable to capture the essence of our vision.

      Consider also that everything we say here is set in stone, we have to be very careful about what we promise and what we reveal. This game is still in the infancy of development after all, we would like to reserve the right to make changes based on what evolves out of the actual development process. This will inevitably result in the occasional use of vagueness. With some understanding of this you can hopefully still at least glean what our intentions for this game are and whether it is something you will enjoy.

      We are trying to answer all your concerns and we will continue to do so. We are also trying to get our project greater exposure and provide you with some interesting updates, these actually have us back at the helm trying to complete some features so that we can actually show you something new!

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      Creator Wally on November 8, 2012

      Tomato/potato :-p My point is, you really need to have open communication that resonates with every backer... no matter what the backer's motivation is. After the kickstart, it would be great if that communication kept going, but often times it's wham bam thank you ma'am.

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      Creator Atarun on November 8, 2012

      @Wally: I agree but wouldn't personally caracterize it as "pandering" ^^'
      I'd say project creators have to "cater to" backers, in much the same way they would a potential investor, because in the end, that is what we are.
      The difference is: we're not in it for the money, we're in it for the product. So it doesn't matter (as much) to us if the product can be sold to the mass market, but it matters a whole deal more whether we are going to love it or not once it's released.
      At least that's how I see it.

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      Creator Wally on November 8, 2012

      I have to agree with @Atarun. After all of the media coverage yesterday, it's surprising you have not reached at least 75% of your goal. On kickstarter the devs or representatives of the devs really needed to pander to their backers. To use Malevolence as an example (as Atarun has), the dev has gathered a loyal fanbase because of his openness and dedication to his fans/backers. He answers every single comment and question posed to him on MULTIPLE outlets. When his project was featured on Aus Kotaku, every comment and question posed was answered by him. He has a full time job, but his dedication to becoming a full time game dev drives him to succeed.

      If a backer asks a question and it isn't answered by the dev (on the kickstarter, not the forum), that backer is much less likely to tell his friends/family/contacts/media outlets about this awesome new project he's found.

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      Creator Màrius Mora Bosch on November 8, 2012

      Hi, first of all, i love the concept and what has been shown of the engine-game at the moment!

      Second, after reading all those comments, it seems that people are just complaining about your "marketing" abilities.

      If you read the updates and your comments on the matter, it is obvious the compromise, passion and clear view of what kind of game you plan to craft. And it seems bloody unique and promising. You just have to make it more clear in the pitch vieo/ front page of the kickstarter :)

      So i think there's really nothing else to discuss about this. Great update! I'm now exponentially more interested!

    22. Avatar200200.small

      Creator Atarun on November 8, 2012

      "We are not presenting a game here, we still have to make one. We're just trying to show you that we are capable of actually making it, that as a small team we have more than just a vision and our enthusiasm."
      That's just the thing, right there. I want you to show me your vision. I've seen your enthusiasm, for sure, but not your vision just yet. I cannot for one second believe that you have not more to tell about that vision. In fact, @Blackstaff showed that you have already published more in other venues. Why not here?

    23. Avatar200200.small

      Creator Atarun on November 8, 2012

      "There are also many complaints about us not showing or explaining enough. What Kickstarter project for a game that hasn't really begun development is able to demonstrate more?"
      Pretty much any Kickstarter project whose creators care about their backers and have spent time thinking about the game they want to make.
      Let me be clear: you do not have to show anything done to convince that you are on the right track. You need, however, to tell how you aim to achieve your goals. What ideas you have, what options you're still considering, what features you've rejected.
      If I told someone I want to make a game where actions have real consequences, I would expect them to think I'm using buzzwords and not take me seriously. But if I told them I want to make a game where actions are directly witnessed by NPCs and then those NPCs (if time and space allow) can exchange that information so that, after a while, what you have done, as the PC(s), is more or less known around the affected area... that means something. They would be free to decide for themselves whether I have a chance of achieving my goal and whether it sounds like a game they would want to play, but they would have some basis for those decisions.
      With all the time and passion you invested in your project already, surely you have plenty of ideas and plans you can share with us, right?

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      Creator Christian Syska on November 8, 2012

      @Bare Mettle:
      It's good to see you react to this. I obviously can't speak for all people, but what bothers me the most and gives me the impression of a rage post the most is this line:

      "We have intentionally lured you into thinking of this as a fairly typical fantasy RPG."

      With the context surrounding it, it reads to me more or less like this: "We have tricked you, and you are stupid for believing this! We are so much more intelligent and awesome than you and everyone else that we are the only developers in existence who know how to make good games." And people don't like to be tricked, especially not if there's money involved. In addition to that, this "all games out there are shit, we are the only true masters and no one else could do anything worthwhile even if they used the same tech" attitude can come across less like confidence and more like arrogance, or in worst case like that of a hurt teenager who got negative feedback for some piece of fanfic he wrote.

      There are more points which could be read into the post if you read it with a mindset of "this is a rage post", but I think those are the main reasons people think that.

      Also, with regard to telling people about your game, Atarun has made a couple of good suggestions about it. You don't need to spoil your story, but you could tell us how it works, what systems make your game stand out, how do you interact with NPCs, is there more choice than Help the distressed peasant now, help him later or kill him and move into his house? That kind of stuff. I understand that your game does not exist yet, but surely you have concrete plans and concepts? If not, I can't see how development is supposed to work out.

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      Creator Martijn Tolsma on November 8, 2012

      I agree with Christian.

      I honestly am convinced of the hard work and love the devs have put and are putting in this game and this campaign. I hope that we can agree that the communication is unfortunate. If you haven't meant to rage but many people are reading it as rage, than the only conclusion must be that somewhere the intention wasn't made clear.
      And hey, we're not all Brits :)

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      Creator Christian Syska on November 8, 2012

      I understand that the devs have to put up with quite a lot, and I can fully understand the odd outbreak when having to put up with a lot of (often impolite) criticism of something you put a lot of tears, sweat and blood into. But my point is that in this case, a large part of it is their own fault.

      How you can intentionally make people think your game is unoriginal and generic when it is supposedly not is beyond me - it doesn't really make people interested, and in a lot of cases it puts people off who might be interested in the actual game, thus resulting in less funding, less coverage less word of mouth and a worse public opinion. I almost skipped over this project myself until I read a couple of comments about how good the video looks.

      So, this is a problem in and of itself. But then going on and raging at backers, potential and existing, because it's being depicted as the generic game the devs, for whatever mysterious reason, wanted people to believe it is? That is either stupid or trolling, and both are not very endearing in my opinion.

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      Creator Bare Mettle Entertainment on November 8, 2012

      Hi,

      We're a little surprised that this was interpreted as "rage". We're Brits who enjoy their irony and we're getting a bit tired of the highly diplomatic professional tone that we have been adopting so far. That's not who we are, we like to joke and we like to speak directly. We thought that we might try a more direct approach with you and just be ourselves. There is certainly plenty of dry humour involved in who we are.

      We are extremely critical of games and we let that show here. If there was an element of rage it would be that we're a little miffed that people are suggesting that someone else could make a better game with our tech because we feel strongly that game studios are making absolutely awful games. We are being criticised for things that in our opinion currently hold extremely low standards in the games industry. We remember a time when games were made by small teams of passionate people and they were mindblowingly awesome. To us this is a time of mass market products with no personality.

      There are also many complaints about us not showing or explaining enough. What Kickstarter project for a game that hasn't really begun development is able to demonstrate more? We are not presenting a game here, we still have to make one. We're just trying to show you that we are capable of actually making it, that as a small team we have more than just a vision and our enthusiasm. We are dedicated and hard working, because we are passionate about our game!

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      Creator Blackstaff The Unknown Obsidian Order on November 8, 2012

      Yeah there are some bits and pieces everywhere and they doesn't show any sign of wanting to glue them together :)
      I also recognise that the devs are a little rough around the edge, but some of the things that has flied in their faces were quite gruesome.
      Most of the people around here just want this thing to be kickstarted already. :)

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      Creator yuRiNo on November 8, 2012

      "We have not given you a story. We have intentionally lured you into thinking of this as a fairly typical fantasy RPG. Guess what? We don't like those either."

      I think that if there are people complaining about a story not being delivered straight to their faces, or about having to find out how to fend for themselves in an dangerous world, they sure haven't played two of the great RPGs of this generation: Demons and Dark Souls.

      It's sure possible to deliver a engaging and challenging experience in RPGs nowadays. and I think that any game that takes this in consideration is bound to do at least this right.

      I really liked the hint at a different save system. The old save/reload thing has it's merits, but there are games doing great without needing such mechanic.

      Good job guys!

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      Creator Atarun on November 8, 2012

      @Blackstaff: Thanks a lot! :D
      This and much more of this should be put on the Home Page and/or in an update. If so, I will not have any further complaint. ;)

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      Creator Blackstaff The Unknown Obsidian Order on November 8, 2012

      @ Atarun Désolé si c'était pas clair :)

      That's coming right from the horse's mouse in the forum :

      We are not doing a typical quest with reward system but being hired to perform tasks will certainly be there. I will give an example of what might transpire in the game.

      You are offered a valuable object to complete some task. This could be a lie, it could be a way to lure you into a trap and rob you, for example. If the reward does exist, you might decide to find out where the person offering it lives and look for it in their house rather than completing the task. You may get caught doing this, or you may even be hired by the same person to retrieve the stolen item. And so on and so forth.

      http://www.baremettle.com/sg/forums/index.php…

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      Creator Atarun on November 8, 2012

      @Christian: I definitely agree that each backer should make up his or her own mind. :)
      That said, between good intentions and a playable demo, there are tons of things they could give to convince they are indeed making a unique game. ;)
      Look at the latest (as of this writing) comment of @Blackstaff. It's not clear to me which parts of it come from intuition and which come from actual dev information (I've never been to the mentioned forum) but something along those lines coming from the devs would be worth gold to me. :)

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      Creator Gazz on November 8, 2012

      > There are also no health points but
      > simply resistance to various forms of damage

      So every hit has a chance to kill your character outright?
      A single bee's sting, that you have a 99.9% resistance against, has a 0.1% chance to kill you instantly?
      Without health points you cannot have gradual damage, only simple states like alive or dead.

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      Creator Christian Syska on November 8, 2012

      @Atarun Well, I have to agree that it sounds a bit vague and buzzwordy, but at least here they _say_ that it won't be a generic fantasy RPG, which is already a big step ahead of what has been said before. But the ideas, concepts and general direction that's written down here (ignoring the pissed-off tone of the post) sound good - if you choose to believe that they will actually do this is a thing that each potential backer must decide for himself. It's something that I think is hard to prove without making a substantial chunk of the game available.
      Personally, I like the tech I'm seeing and for the rest I give them the benefit of the doubt, knowing full well that I might be wrong and that they might end up not keeping those promises, so I'm backing the game. Although I find the tone of this update (or that of a comment made by the developer on RPS the other day) worrying and offputting, to be honest.

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      Creator Blackstaff The Unknown Obsidian Order on November 8, 2012

      Oh, I mean that it doesn't seem like there will be a big pannel with all the quest availiable and that kind of things. Or some guilds that will give you three rats to kill or a convoy to protect. More like you wander around and some people can ask you something, but you are free to turn it around the way you want it : say yes to the poor peasant for killing the ogre that rampages around in exchange of his big ancestrial sword, but go in his house and steal it.
      You could say that the quest system will be very dynamic and dependent of what you do and where you go in a sense.
      There is a post of madoc on that in the forum.

      We are not doing a typical quest with reward system but being hired to perform tasks will certainly be there. I will give an example of what might transpire in the game.

      "You are offered a valuable object to complete some task. This could be a lie, it could be a way to lure you into a trap and rob you, for example. If the reward does exist, you might decide to find out where the person offering it lives and look for it in their house rather than completing the task. You may get caught doing this, or you may even be hired by the same person to retrieve the stolen item. And so on and so forth."

      But an update could sure clear that up :) I don't want to make it feel like I don't want plenty of updates too.

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      Creator Martijn Tolsma on November 8, 2012

      +1 to Atarun.
      I'll stick to this project, for I'm really interested but hoping to learn more from it.
      My advice to the project manager: don't make rage updates. And if it wasn't your intention to make a rage update, just ask someone else to write down what you would like to say. The tone distracts from the message you want to convey.
      You already have such cool tech, that alone will be so good to play with.
      I want to invest in an idea, not preoder a product. So if you say that you have a truly innovative story, and can show some writing for a unimportant dialog, that would be great. I give you my money. Just don't rage about it.
      Another way to have said it is: "we have an idea which is awesome. AWESOME! OK? It will blow your freaking mind out through the back of your head and your mind will go flying into a wall. And that wall will explode and the explosion of the wall will rain down glitter on everybody on the street. And they will look up in the sky with tears in their eyes and they will say "What's happening?" And someone will shout: "It's Sui Generis"
      Trust us :)"
      (c) topolsky btw :)

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      Creator Atarun on November 8, 2012

      @Blackstaff: well, that's kind of my point. ;)
      I want nothing more than an update explaining how they will implement the story. Not what the story will be, but how they will implement it. Especially in the ways it'll set Sui Generis apart from the crowd.
      You say "No quest system is a sure thing", I can't agree. Nothing they've said preclude the usage of a quest system. The traditional "main (linear) quest/side quests" seems like the worst fit ever if they loathe linear stories, agreed, but that doesn't mean they can't have quests at all. Take a look at Malevolence, their project does funny things with quests and shows there is much yet that can be done with a quest system to make it interesting. ;)

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      Creator Blackstaff The Unknown Obsidian Order on November 8, 2012

      Ok read it. Not convinced at all. Whatever they will do, doesn't seem that that will convince the both of you. Interaction and morality bar seems like a big cover for me. No quest system is a sure thing though and that's a really good thing if you ask me.

      Maybe their future update will do the trick for you.

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      Creator Atarun on November 8, 2012

      Re-reading my posts here, I want to apologize for the extremely negative tone that comes out of them... It's not intentional. I guess I got upset by the way I felt I was treated in the the update and by @Blackstaff... Anyway, it wasn't warranted. I'm trying to explain my viewpoint and I'm sorry I couldn't do it in a more constructive way this time around. :'(

    40. 16.small

      Creator Blackstaff The Unknown Obsidian Order on November 8, 2012

      Sorry I was typing as you expanded you ideas, Atarun. :)

      Reading it now.

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      Creator Blackstaff The Unknown Obsidian Order on November 8, 2012

      Ok seems like a waste to argue back and forth about this. But just that one question :
      What is a full-fledged Kickstarter backer ? And what is a pre-order backer ?
      Is it about giving some confidence in someone and his project or about knowing every little thing to make a buy... oups a pre-or... oups again... Hum... Hum... A perfect backer ?
      See where I am going with this ? At what point will you be satisfied about their ability to make a good game ? When you know all the story ? When they hire Chris Avellone and David Gaider for the writing ?
      I say that making a game is as much about having a great engine and great tools than having some great writter on your team. Because at the end of the day, it's about having a great vision and a great comprehension of all you need for your game. What they showed of their vision is enough for me to let them have a full shot at it, both on the gameplay and story side of it.

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      Creator Atarun on November 8, 2012

      @Christian Syska: I agree that to lure people into thinking that your game is generic is... extremely counter-productive, to put it nicely.
      Then again, I'm not sure there's anything specific in this update that would lead people to believe otherwise. The ability to kill NPCs is nothing new, though it's true that it is too rarely implemented (at least to my taste). The "non-linear story" is the most buzzy or all buzzwords. If I had been given a pound every time I was promised a non-linear story (and given a linear story with a few branching dialogues, a dumb morality system and/or a handful of endings), I could back three times the number of projects I do, no sweat.
      What else is there?... Ah, yes, the "trying to divine your interlocutor's true intent". Well, at this point I have no clue what the interaction will look like, so it's a bit hard to see how that could be done in an interesting way, but sure, it probably could.

    43. Avatar200200.small

      Creator Atarun on November 8, 2012

      Let me expand a little bit on my thoughts: I do not need to be told everything about the story. I do not even need to be told the exact premise of it. But I'm extremely interested in how they are going to implement it: how will the interactions work? How will "morality" be tracked? Will there be quests? Will there be relationships? I'm more interested in what staples of fantasy stories will not be there or will be twisted, by the way.
      They are remaining extremely vague about it all. Saying your game will feature stuff like "moral dilemmas and ambiguities" does nothing for me. It's pure buzz. Show me a story-driven game released the last 10 years that wasn't supposed to feature moral dilemmas and ambiguities, at least on paper. I want to know how those things will be featured, how they'll work.
      And if Bare Mettle Entertainment would rather not get my few pounds than give me details about how they intend to do their magic, then I'll be happy to go give my few pounds to another project (or keep them to buy food, I'm told it's healthy once in a while ;).

    44. Avatar.small

      Creator Christian Syska on November 8, 2012

      You know, I like what I see of your tech, an I like the path you say you're taking (i.e. make choices matter, events unfolding with or without the player, no plain good/evil distinctions), but I do wonder why this is not mentioned on the front page from the beginning.

      If you "intentionally lure" players into thinking this is a run of the mill standard RPG (which is a thought that's heavily supported by the logo and name), then you shouldn't be suprised if people treat it as such. And especially you don't have a right to tell them off when they complain that they don't want another generic RPG, after intentionally making them think that your game is just this.

      Would you have communicated half of this post on the front page and/or in the video, people's reaction would have been better and you wouldn't have had to write this rage post (sorry if it isn't, but it reads like one). It probably would help your Kickstarter as well, as people would be more willing to back something unique instead of Generic Fantasy RPG 247. Now, a potential backer has to dig into the updates to find something that might set this game apart (other than the animation/combat tech, of course).

    45. Avatar200200.small

      Creator Atarun on November 8, 2012

      @Blackstaff: They said, and I quote: "There is lots of because in our world. We have taken what appears to be generic fantasy and given it a whole new twist. A lot of effort has gone into this and to reveal it would be to throw it all away. We hold it more dear than the funds we are trying to raise. If by not revealing it we fail in securing your support, then so be it."
      That sounds to me like they want us to pre-order and be all surprised when the game comes out. You are free to disagree and feel like they are treating you like a full-fledged Kickstarter backer or to disregard story entirely and only be interested in gameplay (I'm more interested in story myself, to each his/her own), but I send that comment right back at you "Way to miss the point".

    46. 16.small

      Creator Blackstaff The Unknown Obsidian Order on November 8, 2012

      @ Atarun Way to miss the point. They are only hiding part of the "story" from us. And they said multiples times what they are looking to achieve with it. So I think it's enough for me to make an informed choice about backing or not. Many other updates will come later on gameplay,...

    47. Avatar200200.small

      Creator Atarun on November 8, 2012

      I feel like I share part of your 'ethos" as you call it. But the whole "we'd rather lose your support than tell you what will be in our game" makes me think Kickstarter might not be a good match for Sui Generis.
      I know a lot of people want to use Kickstarter as a risk-free pre-order platform (and by risk-free I mean for the devs) but that is not how I see it at all.
      Way I see it, it's fine to tell us what your vision is, stick to it and let haters go away. It's even better, IMO, to involve backers in the design process where it is sensible (and that does not mean let majority rule or vocal minorities decide everything, let me be clear).
      But to keep stuff from us, what, as a surprise? For me it suggests you think of us as nothing more than customers. It's not how I think of Kickstarter backers, personally.

    48. Missing_small

      Creator Mikael Nordin on November 8, 2012

      I thank you.

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      Creator Francis on November 7, 2012

      that's a kind of game very different from what went out those last years. Good Job keeping your point and not changing it because some people asked for it.

      I hope you will add some other tier with more option for digital download like the 80£ at lower price because for a canadian like me it's around 170$

    50. Missing_small

      Creator Samuel Leclerc on November 7, 2012

      I can't start to describe how awesome this project sounds! Both the game itself and the way you are presenting is fantastic. I love how passionate you are with your project and how much it seems to mean to you. This is the kind of drive that gets me really excited because i feel like you won't change your idea to suit someone and that is truly remarkable. I wish the best of luck and i truly hope this will become a reference in the genre.

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