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Your implication is presumably that there were "a lot more" (tm) than 100 refund requests.
How many are you asserting is likely here?
As I've stated many times before, all the available evidence from (from all sides) points to there being less than 100 refund requests.
As to why FDEV didn't give unconditional refunds?
There are very many possible reasons for this, and far from all of them are as you seem to suspect: "Because there were a lot more than 100 refund requests"
As I've already pointed out to Wyzak, the Kickstarter Ts&Cs state that an individual backer must request for a refund.
Also, the legality of the refund situation regarding Kickstarter projects remains untested under UK law.
It is in fact likely, under UK law, that backers racking up hundreds of minutes/hours in alpha and beta, and then beyond the offline announcement, then requesting refunds would not be in a strong legal position should the case go to court. Indeed, advice given from other refunders to backers falling into such a category is that they have little chance in receiving a refund.
Hence, *unconditional* refunds may not have been given as there is a clear distinction between someone who has racked up hundreds of minutes/hours in-game, versus someone who never downloaded the game nor played it - since the latter position is eminently more defensible when asserting that one backed purely due to the expectation of an offline mode.
Wyzak: "If it was only 100 people, why didn't FDEV just step up to the plate and offer them unconditional refunds? That would have immediately stopped dead all of the dead publicity right in it's tracks."
Quoted for "answer this one, then".
"A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward"
"They are unable to fullfil the DRM free reward, therefor all backers are entitled to a refund irrespective of their amount of hours spent in game before the offline mode (and DRM free) was dropped."
Note the words: "A Project Creator is not required to grant A BACKER'S REQUEST for a refund unless..."
Please take extra attention over the capitalised: A BACKER'S REQUEST.
Note the placement of the apostrophe denoting possession of a singular entity.
Note also the letter, 'A'.
Again, referring to a singular backer.
The Project Creator is therefore only "required to grant" an individual backer's refund if they "request for a refund."
All the available evidence (from all sides of this "discussion") point to less than 100 backers requesting for a refund.
25,580+ backers did not request for a refund.
Your assertion that "all backers are entitled to a refund" *may* be true.
But note, there has still been no court case in which this claim has actually been tested under UK law.
Furthermore, despite all your lengthy protestations, the legal grey area surrounding refunds to a Kickstarter campaign remains just that: 'a grey area'
The simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority of backers did not request for a refund - as is the prerogative of anyone backing a project that they really want to see come to fruition (and who aren't that bothered whether all the promises and aims of the original pitch were met)
Yeah, because - as we all know, and in contrast to Metacritic scores - subreddits are perfect examples for an entirely objective crowds.
That's probably also the reason that this post has 0 votes:
The top-voted comment says "/facepalm". I entirely fail to understand the reason for the facepalm but they must be right. It's /r/EliteDangerous, after all.
BTW your "spreadsheet" is a 404
You may find the points I raised "laughable".
Conversely, I find it extremely amusing that your obviously-insincere-yet-attempting-to-appear-objective post on Reddit currently sits at "0 points" 3 months after posting, and has garnered such responses as:
"What a horrible troll post. Get out."
"With those numbers its far fetched.
I'm too lazy to type all of the reasons on this mobile. For one, sample size is too small. For two, the numbers presented aren't "odd".
And even if you could think it's true, why wouldn't it be some fanbois/haters trying to manipulate the scores?"
"I have no sympathy whatsoever for Frontier, but I doubt they're directly to blame (their PR department have proved to be so incompetent that this is probably beyond their capabilities); I think it's quite more probable that those 10s and 0s originated from the community (the forums and this subreddit), the 0s mainly from people alienated by Frontier with decisions like the offline fiasco and the 10s by "fanboys", many of them probably reacting to the 0s (in fact both might be reacting to each other)."
"Almost certainly, no.
Metacritic user reviews are a clusterfuck at the best of times, most users who post them have never posted reviews before because they create the accounts purely to pimp the game they love or flame the one they hate.
Half those 0s will be Star Citizen fanboys who just want to shit on a game that's similar but isn't "theirs" and half of the 10s will be ED fanboys who want to validate their fanboyism by making sure other people see all the 10s and think it's a good game.
And that's before you even consider all the sockpuppets created by dodgy PR companies acting on behalf of someone acting on behalf of a publisher who flung some money at them to "promote" the game.
So, is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? No. Do your findings suggest anything either way? No."
"fanboys and haters!
Crowdfunded projects attracts (or creates) them like rotting meat attracts flies and creates maggots"
@Theta Sigma - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous/comments…
So you are saying that a significant amount of SC backers are so concerned about SC that they took their anger out on E:D?
You are also saying that gamers are unable to appreciating two games in the same genre (a tiny genre that was considered dead for many years) but years apart, and that we will always favour one and completely punish the other one?
Your argument is laughable. It sounds like the politics in my home country of South Africa where a "third force" is always to blame for the failures of government. They are never able to take responsibility for their own actions...
Conversely have a look at my spreadsheet on http://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/2prujm/is_frontier_doctoring_the_metacritic_results_with/ which shows that in fact more first-time posters are giving E:D 10, than first-time posters which are giving it 0. 75% vs 65%.
If it was only 100 people, why didn't FDEV just step up to the plate and offer them unconditional refunds? That would have immediately stopped dead all of the dead publicity right in it's tracks. But no.... that's not what they did. My conclusion is that they know it's far more than a 100 people.
@Theta Sigma https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous/comments…
Any subsequent change or clarification of the T&C have no bearing on the matter. The original T&C at the time of the project being backed is the only relevant one.
"They would undoubtedly cite the total number of backers (25,681) and the total number of backers that requested a refund (~100) Thus illustrating that, for the vast majority of backers, the change from offline to solo, was indeed "the best possible solution for backers" (i.e. the majority of backers: that is, 99.6%+ of backers)"
That's a load of crap. I am one of the 25,681 backers who didn't ask for a refund, but I'm still pissed about the removal of offline mode. You can't just assume that all of the other backups are 100% happy with what transpired simply because they aren't banging down the doors demandings refunds.
They are unable to fullfil the DRM free reward, therefor all backers are entitled to a refund irrespective of their amount of hours spent in game before the offline mode (and DRM free) was dropped.
If Frontier had such a good case, why not go to court and have their name cleared permanently?
"the potential for illegal-copies/reverse-engineering of their intellectual asset by rivals could be argued to not be in the best solution for backers."
That was known from the time they started working on the project and if they felt that way they should never have tabled the offline mode.
"In this case, the crowd are 99% happy with what is being achieved."
No, actually the crowd is 66% happy with what is being achieved by today's user metacritic rating.
@ Fabio Capela ( https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous/comments… )
Maybe the first two votes were zero and ten :o)
I think it would be useful if Metacritic updated official scores, but I'm not sure how many outlets actually change their scores. Overall I don't think it happens that often, but then I've not actually looked into it.
I think there were the usual reviews that came in *after* a launch, as not every outlet can get their review in at time zero and some wait anyway. Some more may even have been delayed, awaiting SimCity's first 24 hours or so. I would say that would have been plenty to drop the average, without a need to adjust existing scores, as just the launch alone was bad (obviously).
But back to the main issue... SimCity actually managed to get up to a User Score of five? Seriously? ;oP
Thanks for the info @Theta Sigma and @Random Element!
@Patrick good suggestion from @Random Element
Premium Boxed Edition (Kickstarter Backers)
Standard Boxed Edition
...Delivered last week
A2 Galaxy Map
...Delivered in the last few weeks
3xCD of music now available for purchase at Elite Store, so it is entirely possible that Kickstarter audio CD rewards are in the process of being sent out as per poster and boxed editions.
Best place to ask for info about rewards would be the Elite forums at Frontier. Not sure if there's an exclusive backers section but it wont hurt to search.
Hope this helps.
@ Theta Sigma
No chance. They'd be awfully short vids. I'd get my ass kicked 5 seconds of pressing start. My reflexes aren't what they used to be.... cough cough! |¬_¬|
Same question by the way for any other add-on rewards, prints etc.: has everything been released now or are we still waiting for some of it?
Has anyone ordered (and received) the soundtrack CD add-on? I'm having trouble keeping track of these fragmented Kickstarter rewards and can truly not remember if I ever received it.
RE: Halo: Combat Evo LASO
Suggestion: Why not make a YouTube channel showcasing your exploits? After all, a video speaks a hundred thousand words!
(...naturally, I'm suggesting this for reasons somewhat similar, albeit converse, to those given by you in the first few lines of your response to Bradley Sercombe)
@Bradley Sercombe and I are *really* looking forward to enjoying the footage of you, in turn, enjoying the "pure gameplay" ;-)
Best thing about those carrots is that people waiting for their Mac version don't have the chance to take part.
Not sure if you deliberately misconstrued:
My use of the phrase "swiftly settled" is clearly referring to the speed of refund *following* the "threatened court-cases". You'll note that this was mentioned in the immediately preceding sentence...
Emphasis [and further clarification] below:
"The recent precedent of a couple of threatened court-cases being brought, notably focus on the *delay* aspect of payment of refund.
That Frontier subsequently swiftly settled [following threatened court-cases/receipt of LBA] is most probably due to their not wishing the associated negative publicity that Frontier would receive."
Quite prepared for you to object to this. All available evidence points to refunds being "swiftly settled" following "threatened court-cases" upon receipt of LBA.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but upon submitting an individual LBA nobody has subsequently waited "4 months" for their refund?
As far as all the evidence that has been presented in these comments, upon LBA submission refunds were "swiftly settled" within a few days.
"That frontier subsequently swiftly settled" hahahahaha. I'm sorry what? 4 months is not swiftly settled.
You also conveniently forget that a DRM free version was promised, which is impossible for an always online game. Therefore it is not a reasonable alternative. It is a completely different product.
Wonder when the competitions for thirty pieces of silver are going to stop.
If the game is that good, why the carrots? Or are they giving back to the "community", out of the kindness of your own wallet?
Does anyone know of any other games that has had as many competitions, and maybe more to come, in the first few months after launch? Oh yeah they shut down the Halifax studio and had a few Titans gathering dust. Sales stagnating so it's time to dangle another carrot out to the net. Elite needs some more exposure, so dangle a carrot.
Does anyone have a link to the actual number of players on the servers? Been searching but can't find any numbers at all. http://www.elitedangerous.com/status is erm full of information with erm stats and stuff...... or maybe not. You'd think there'd be something like this up and running by now http://warcraftrealms.com/census.php…
Forget it. I'm being silly. If it took Frontier Developments PLC nearly three months to find my 0 hour account and issue a refund, only after being poked with an LBA, then the task of getting round to producing and publishing actual player stats online is way beyond them and therefore an impossibility. Please correct me if I'm wrong but if anyone has a live stats page then please post it up here.
Anyway, Halo 5 : Guardians, trailers are out. Hope they go of the rails this time round. I mean a bit more freedom, different routes to tackle problems and stuff. Thinking all the way back to the launch of Halo:Combat Evolved and the birth of the Xbox. Were there any competitions at launch? I think MS stance was: There's the machine! There's the Halo! Just play it !! And it was frigging awesome!! Bungie/MS didn't need carrots and gimmicks. The game was that good :-D. Yeah I know it was a different time ,and genre, but my god did MS take a chance on that one. New console, new game, but it worked out just fine in the end. They were confident in the strength of the product, and it showed. No tricks. No gimmicks. No carrots. Just pure gameplay.
Damn it! Got a taste for some Halo: Combat Evo LASO now!
Well, I doubt Simcity's userscore started at 2.2, so I would say it did plunge :)
I think it started close to 5, but I'm relying on memory here and that isn't completely trustworthy.
As for the metascore, I was guessing, based on the fact that the online issues were bad and longlasting enough to make multiple sites change their scores and assuming that the metascore would have been updated to take that into account. I might have been wrong, though — in which case the metascore is even less useful than I thought, which makes the relative importance of the userscore even higher in my eyes.
@ Fabio Capela
Did the userscore for SimCity ever get high enough to "plunge"? ;oP
That's interesting though. I hadn't thought of the Metascore from an review outlet changing. For SimCity though, ( http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/simcity/critic-reviews ) the review for Polygon semi-famously jumped up and down ( http://www.polygon.com/2013/3/4/4051444/simcity-review ).
9.5 --> 8.0 --> 4.0 --> 6.5
But Metacritic still says 9.5 , so I'm not sure if Metacritic will change a review score. But then, I have *no* idea how Metacritic gets all it's scores from outlets (scouring the web? submitted? manually updated? no idea). I would guess that any drop in score would have coincided with slightly later (or deliberately delayed) reviews reflecting all the server issues and problems (I think that's kind of obvious), but I don't know if Metacritic changed any. Was there a Metascore review that you'd heard of that changed?
But yes, I saw a review from an Elite: Dangerous User sayer (s)he'd changed his/her score and then I went searching, as I didn't know that was possible.
Hope I haven't caused any confusion about my suggestion earlier https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous/comments… . I made that suggestion in order to stop reading about what people who were "loving the game so far" got up too.
It was a absolutely genuinely 100% honest suggestion to make vids of players gameplay though. A the time I was just wondering why would somebody would waste time typing stuff about what they did in game like..."whAt I diD oN my SuMmer hoLidaYS" to people who already own the game and to others who'd nearly been defrauded by Frontier Developments PLC FDEV to the tune of hundreds of pounds. To waste your time typing your exploits of the game here seems, to me at least anyway, quite shallow, stupid and illogical, almost like the race to Elite comp. No offence meant. FDEV have PR and marketing so why do people feel they have to do job for them? The game went gold ages ago and is now in the shops so people can buy it if they want. A video of ones gameplay speaks volumes rather than "Hey! I did this! I did that". We're not 35 going on 12. Looking back I remember school friends who used to be like that back in the day when we got the latest issue of ZZAP64! hot of the press and we'd huddle around the mag with Elite splashed all over the front page. " Wow!! Look at the size of those pixels!!!!" :-O. Later on after playing the game we'd actually talk about it, just like https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous/comments… ,............ when we were, 13!
The mentality of the people that go out of there way to type stuff like that makes me think that I'm actually glad I got my money back from Frontier Developments PLC FDEV. A galaxy full of shills and brown-nosers helping each other to survive would be to much to bear. I hate to say this but at least there's a saving grace by switching to ignore-the-rest-of-the-MMO-mode.
If one is going down the path of showing off their exploits then make a video of the gameplay and post the link. Simple.
Just don't try to emulate this of all things....... https://www.youtube.com/watch…
Makes me lol every time :-D. Classic.
Glad FDEV took the hint and have toned things down with a much more relativity speaking, with a big rock of salt, "realistic" gameplay route.
Don't ever forget that Frontier Developments PLC FDEV tried to defraud some people by funnelling and abandoning them in Frontier Developments PLC black hole limbo "support system". Don't ever forget the disgusting plan of KS deception followed by the response and behaviour metered out to legitimate refund requesters.
Have fun making your vids and post the links here instead of typing BS....like your 35 going on 13.
It's the weekend so what the f@ck an I doing here? :-) Ciao!
Yep. And AFAIK this works for professional reviews too. Simcity, for example, started with great reviews, with most of the professional reviewers giving it great scores despite the always online nature and even the users giving it positive scores most of the time, but saw both its metascore and its userscore plunge after the servers started having issues, and to a large degree that seemed to happen because players and critics that previously praised it decided to now complain and reduce their scores accordingly.
Saw a bit of this with ED too, at least when it comes to the userscore; I've read a number of reviews from players that originally gave the game great scores due to a strong first impression but afterwards reduced their scores when they found the game shallow.
@ Jörn Huxhorn :oD
No idea if this came up in the earlier discussion, but one small detail: it's possible to change one's score (either written or just a score) on Metacritic.
(As an aside: one can also edit one's written review.)
@Jörn Huxhorn @Avalanche ;-)
@Avalanche Agreed. ;-)
@ Jörn Huxhorn
Ahh, yes. Sorry... I completely missed your earlier post of the link.
Officially though, I'm going to go with:
"Yes, I know you know, I was reposting the link for you." :o)
@Avalanche I know that version of the interview and posted it previously in https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous/comments… - that comment was the reason (it was quoted in the mail) for someone to search for one of my email addresses and send me that other uncensored text. ^^
@ Jörn Huxhorn ( https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous/comments… )
On top of that, I would also add that if anyone should respond, it should be Frontier Developments.
& @ All ( https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous/comments… )
Not sure if this is absolutely the interview that was originally released to the world, but here's a version to compare?:
I just received an email with a link to the original text of that Ian Bell interview, i.e. including the text that was replaced by the [STATEMENT DELETED] blocks: http://pastebin.com/TPnExyng
Thanks to the anonymous whistleblower. ^^
Well I finally received my Premium Backers Edition box today, very pretty package though I'm not sure what the silver disk inside is for. I remember backing a DRM free offline game but that doesn't appear to be what's on the disk.
Strange... still, never mind, in the future if the online servers ever get switched off I'll still be able to, um, well, er, I suppose I can look at the box?
It is a *very* pretty box...
Good to hear you're enjoying the Elite galaxy.
You should definitely consider the suggestion from @Random Element and perhaps create a YouTube channel - there's some great stuff out there.
Particularly, Tommyttk with Flight Assist Off ;-)
Tommyttk: 'Elite Dangerous Flight Assist Off through the station - Isinona or isn't he?'
Scott Manley: '1.2 - Looking at the New Ships With The New Camera'
'Elite Racers: Altair Race Day'
Erimus One: 'Daedalus Wing (Mission to Hyponia)'
Isinona: 'Elite: Dangerous' v1.1.06 - Hired Gun: Part 3 (Flight Assist Off)'
@Jörn Huxhorn @Random Element
Thank you for assisting @Bradley Sercombe
@ Bradley Sercombe
Suggestion: Make a youtube channel with your exploits? A video speaks a hundred thousand words! Would be nice to see your sessions. Post a link to them!! :-)
Recently I flew to Betelguese from Sol. Sure- not as epic as the guys that crossed the galaxy, but it IS my favorite star after all. I have played the game solo the entire time- this is the first time I've ever used something with HOTAS controls and the last time I used a joystick was probably in the 1980s. Yes the game is a bit grind-y, I hope that they plan to build more content for it, however it also remains pretty true to the original Elite which I appreciate. I spent a considerable time cataloging systems on the way to Betelguese and back. When I returned I had half a million credits in info and surveyed 3 previously unknown systems. The star itself was massive. Not really what I expected it to look like, but flying around it sure took time! I got some great screen shots with it and a nebula in the same image. I nursed my ship 300-odd lights back to the nearest starport I could find without too much further damage and paid whatever was asked for repairs (also, I think the cost for repairs is a little low, people should be incentivised to be more careful... after all, dying in space is easy- one "ssst" and your guts are spread out over a thousand miles of stratosphere). Sometimes with these open games you need to make your own fun and set your own goals. I do that quite a bit in 7 days to die.
Not sure I'm up to visiting Sag. A in ED though - lol. Maybe if I got together with a group of likeminded people that could be fun.
Thanks heaps Jorn!
Not in my case.
Hi ladies and gents, recently I received a package from FD which was a tube with a poster in it. Unfortunately, since nobody had bothered to tape up the plastic ends one of the ends had come off. Does anyone know if the tube contained anything other than the poster?"
The reason for the lack of answers @Paul R Francis might be that I have genuinely zero ideas if the collectors edition is in any way a collectors edition other than that it's called a collectors edition. There have been "exclusive" pre-order skins that weren't exclusive anymore a few weeks later So why on earth should I a) believe FD about that collectors editions and b) give someone an information that would just be guesswork on my part? I can just imagine Braben arguing that it's *still* possible to collect those editions even though they are sold for $10 at Walmart. "But you *can* collect them!"
I had all that when I promoted E:D to all my friends for about two years. Thanks, but no thanks.
It's funny how you call Shadowrunner paranoid. Wouldn't his suspicion just be a hypothesis? ;-)
Refunders don't exactly display helpful or amicable behaviour to all though, do they?
Precisely zero refunders fell over themselves to advise @Paul R Francis when he benignly enquired:
"Just received my physical copy of the game. Looks great, is it going to be released to stores or is it a collectors edition? Want to open it but am scared haha."
Similarly, newbie poster @tarasis stating an innocent observation was unfortunate enough to be not-so-warmly greeted by the overly suspicious and/or paranoid @Oldschool Shadowrunner who seemed to be having a bad day:
"@tarasis - excuse my language but where the hell have you been living for last 2-3 months? You really like us to believe this is the first time you heard people are not happy with FD? 15,000 posts on FD board, google news paper articles, thousands of negative comments here and many other places, refund game code, etc, etc, etc. Yet you want us to swallow that you just randomly decide to check kickstarter comments section months after the game was released and then post how you are shocked about legal actions and how happy you are with what you got?!?! Smells Fishy...Is that you Braben?"
Needless to say, @tarasis left promptly and hasn't returned - can't really blame him, nor anyone else that doesn't feel exactly the same way you guys evidently do about E:D
And regarding that Scotsman... I never said that biologists couldn't be statisticians. You've put those words in my mouth. They need statistics in their field. Badly. That's not the problem at all.
In contrast to biology, where statistics are applied to objective results, he used those statistics to analyze the most subjective things on earth - game/movie/music reviews.
There is no such thing as an objective game review. It would read something like this:
"Game ran with 25fps on my machine with the following specs: [..]
Could be more fluid. 7/10"
Not exactly the most useful, right? It contains some valid info but it isn't very enlightening about the game itself.
Instead, this would require a thorough psychological examination and not one that assumes that the ratings are objective in any way. Giving a zero rating isn't something people do without any reason at all. Anger led me to create an account at MC in the first place.
You pseudo-quote me with this:
"No relevant statistician could also be a biologist."
"Zuurman is a statistician *and* a biologist."
"Well, then, I cast doubt on his being a relevant statistician due to his biologist credentials"
I didn't say anything like that. I also didn't belittle his credentials and I'm sure he is a great biologist. I merely suggested that a thing like "competence in a field" exists and that I would have appreciated a scientific analysis from a more suitable field, e.g. a quantitative psychology.
If I'd write a 30 pages pamphlet about "Orphan chemokine receptors in neuroimmunology: functional and pharmacological analysis of L-CCR and HCR" I'm pretty sure you'd value his words more than mine. And not for the reason that I'm not a true biologist but because I don't even know what L-CCR and HCR means without google-cheating. :p (and yes, that was just a joke)
We just have different opinions about that paper. You deem it important enough to link it three times. I don't.
I mostly agree with the paper and said so from the start.
It has issues. Critics reviews are written by magazines/sites and those reviews are very rarely, if ever, revisited and if it happens at all it's merely to increase the score of a game that was very buggy at release and has since been subsequently patched. That's the only updated reviews by media I have ever seen.
I'm pretty sure that professional reviewers aren't dumping 200h of play time into a single game they review either. Gamers do that and they are able to update their score and review text. So while E:D might be pure eye candy and actually quite fun during the first 10-20h even the positive reviews say that it's currently a pretty thin game. And a score that can be updated shows that over time.
Quantitative psychologists would realize this and take it into account.
Take a look at the comments under http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/03/12/david-braben-on-fan-anger-interview/
Are you arguing that all those comments are also just us 4-5 people here in the comments section?
If you really observed this comments section you would have seen that us angry ranters were providing constructive support to people with actual problems since FD is ignoring Kickstarter entirely. We pointed them to to correct places. That's not exactly troll behavior, is it?
Regarding that two year till shutdown date I gave earlier... it may very well be three years. I'm neither prophet nor psychic so I can't be sure about the exact date.
But I can guarantee you 100% that it won't be 30 years like the original Elite - and that is the whole point about that always-online-drm-issue.
And even without any Scotsman involved:
I'd still like to know how Elite without Thargoids can ever be a realistic, "objective" 10/10.
Star Citizen will be along to save the space-sim genre (...in a few years or so) and by then Elite:Dangerous, Frontier and David Braben will be nothing but the memory of a bad taste in your mouth.
How's that Metacritic User Score doing? ;-)
And yet... as a comparative... Elite falls below Frozen Cortex and well below Dragonball Xenoverse?!?
It's a rushed to market snooze fest published by an abusive asshat company. And people are both noticing and commenting on it.
RPS had a nice article a few months ago:
...Elite Dangerous, a game I have played and played but never fully enjoyed...
...Imagine making a game with as slick and impressive an interface as Elite, and then creating systems that all but require players to alt-tab over to a screenshot in order to play...
...Glumly grinding out the funds to get a larger hauling ship – necessary if you’re going to make properly good money – is an exercise in grim frustration...
...With the in-game experience doing so little to support the fantasy of being a trader, the game then becomes about the few physical interactions you have as a non-combative ship pilot: lightspeed jumps, interdiction avoidance, and docking. The first is programmed via the galaxy map and requires you to rotate towards your destination, press a button, and throttle up; the middle means keeping your mouse pointer in the center of a moving HUD element, like a browser game that wouldn’t hold your attention for more than a minute; and the latter is a genuine thrill, a rare moment of grandness and scale in an otherwise empty universe...
If you actually bothered to read http://pastebin.com/VcRYjCGy you'd know whether I backed before or after offline mode was announced. q.e.d.
No, he didn't kill my dog. But he did this to his former partner:
I encourage Frontier Developments to send me a cease and desist letter for calling them fraudulent multiple times in relation to their "Our records show that you backed the game before we committed to an offline mode" stunt.
"In law, fraud is deliberate deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain."
Frontier Developments used the above argument to fend off refund requests even though it is possible to change the pledge amount or pull the pledge altogether until the very last second of the campaign. Any legal relationship between backer and creator starts with the payment of the money. There is nothing questionable at all. And FD know this very well.
They have my data on their records. But they won't send me a c&d because I would object and a court would ultimately attest that it is valid to call the above behavior by FD fraudulent.
I would very much appreciate this.
"That wasn't a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman at all. Get your fallacies right."
Hmmm... except that, indeed, yours was fallacious reasoning of the type I stated:
You "questioned the competence of the person that wrote it with regards to statistics" citing the fact that he is a biologist (for reasons still not adequately/at all explained)
"No relevant statistician could also be a biologist."
"Zuurman is a statistician *and* a biologist."
"Well, then, I cast doubt on his being a relevant statistician due to his biologist credentials"
And, you apply this 'reasoning' despite the (PhD) author in fact being well-versed in statistical analysis as evidenced by his academic credentials (including computing and games-related statistical analysis) his being the author of the published and cited scientifc paper: 'Statistical analysis of cDNA microarray data' couple with the (surely relatively well-known?) fact that DNA analysis inherently requires a large amount of statistical and computational analysis.
You then further cite some classic causation/correlation nonsense completely unrelated to the author we were discussing.
You then apparently go on to actually agree with his analysis.
This doesn't change the fact that you were damning about the guy's credentials as a means to cast doubt over his findings.
In short, you cast aspersions over the veracity of his analysis because you, "prefer statistical analysis from statisticians and/or a university."
He apparently didn't fit your exacting criteria/preference for a statistician, therefore he can't be a relevant statistician, and his works therefore can't be relevant statistical analyses.
It's textbook 'No True Scotsman'
From your response, it seems likely that you would use the same defence against any statistics presented that didn't meet some other set of criteria that you decide upon ad-hoc. Furthemore, your casting of aspersions on Zuurmans's credentials is fallacious in itself and doesn't necessarily make the statistical analysis he produced any less valid - only in your opinion does it do so.
So, there's also a hint of fallacy fallacy in there too, really: You presume that his analyses are fallacious (due to his being a biologist) yet your fallacious reasoning regarding his being a biologist (and therefore not a 'relevant' statistician) does not necessarily imply that his analyses are in fact fallacious.
You "question... the importance of the non-profit organization "Xentax Foundation" that isn't even relevant enough to have a Wikipedia page."
Right. Point taken. We should use Wikipedia as the sole arbiter of 'relevance'.
(perhaps you were joking on this point - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt)
"You have hopes that the general public will stop being stupid so Metacritic loses influence? Good luck with that one."
Not really 'hope' so much as evidence from general comments sections elsewhere, Facebook, Reddit, RPS, etc. I do think there's a lot of evidence from the gaming community (not just E:D fans, and not just haters or fanboys of any given game) that Metacritic scores are largely taken with a large pinch of salt)
The interesting thing, is that in these comments, Metacritic is regularly cited as some sort of paragon of virtue - probably since the obviously downwardly manipulated socre chimes with your own myopic view of E:D.
"I frankly don't care at all about the remaining 25k backers that are happy with Elite in the current implementation."
Noted. Rest assured, the feeling is almost certainly mutual.
"They'll probably understand why an offline mode would have been important when FD turns off their servers due to bankruptcy. I give this game two years."
Well, your prediction is there in perpetuity - it will be most interesting to see how that one plays out, Nostradamus.
Good luck with that one. Perhaps you Should place a bet at a bookmakers? You could be rich! I wonder what odds you'd get on such a bet?
Do try to appreciate that Frontier is a 'company'.
Companies exist, in the main, in order to make money (and not really to pander to the wishes of a small minority of angry keyboard warriors) In terms of revenue, a solely online, non-DRM game is, from a company's medium to long-term perspective a very shrewd move since it completely addresses the resale/piracy issue and the associated crushing loss of revenue from their intellectual properties that they both entail. One player = one copy. Frontier is a business, and they have probably applied business sense to E:D. You don't like that. However, the vast majority don't care and/or completely understand why Frontier have followed this path (...if indeed that is the sole reason why they have chosen that path - the simple fact is, neither you, nor I, nor anyone outside Braben's mind know the true reasons for the offline decision - which is why, I suspect, you find the endless speculation so stimulating - and, of course, it can have no end, since Braben will never tell you. Endless indignation. Powerful stuff)
"I can understand Avalanche perfectly well regarding the curtness of his answers. It isn't worthwhile bothering to write a proper answer to you since you'll ignore 95% of the text, anyway."
It's completely unsurprising that you would support a fellow Kickstarter Backout.
I would further dispute that I have received any 'proper answers' ;-)
You'll note that in this, my previous comment, and the majority of my other comments I have in fact taken the time to address points raised or questions asked - prior to February I occasionally dropped in just to follow the progress of these comments, and it really has been fascinating to see how a one-sided discussion amongst like-minded people with a common grievance continues when not subject to opposing views.
It's very interesting, also, to note that, in the last four months, whenever opposing viewpoints have been raised by other satisfied Kickstarter backers in these comments, the posters have almost without exception, been vehemently opposed by multiple refunders, sometimes ridiculed, by turns accused of being a 'shills', 'fanboys' (some guy was even accused of being Braben - although that was 'explained' (in a later comment) as apparently being just a 'joke' - the OP had long gone by then) and generally made to feel unwelcome on a public Kickstarter comments page for a game that they have as much right to comment on as any other backer.
"I explained that I want to see the end of Frontier Developments because of the way they deal with their customers."
If you take a step back for a second, perhaps you can see that this is one heck of an extreme reaction. Did Braben also kill your dog?! ;-)
"85 days until they refunded me is totally unacceptable. See http://pastebin.com/VcRYjCGy for the whole rationale of why I demanded that refund at all."
Yes. 85 days is a long time. But I'm not really sure you had a legal case at all. The greyness of the area regarding refunds still hasn't turned white or black. I take the view that the delay was most probably a combination of time taken for legal advice to be sought by Frontier, time taken to investigate the play-history/backer history of each request, potentially coupled with a low priority assigned to the task of refunding people that backed a by-definition risky project - in contrast to a purchaser ordering an existing product with well-known, and crucially evidenced parameters. Remember, Frontier were/are developing a game - analysing play-time histories and backer-histories takes time an effort away from an undoubtedly hectic planned release schedule.
"Our records show that you backed the game before we committed to an offline mode" figment about the relevance of pledge time was the final straw - but you'll ignore all this in all of your future comments anyway and will argue that we are just bad people with no reasons whatsoever to hold a gripe against FD.)
Well, *did* you back the game *before* the 'commitment' to offline mode?
Legally, they're in a pretty strong position if that's what they're asserting.
Sounds to me like they just gave you a refund a a goodwill gesture so you would stop bleating.
"And again: this isn't a forum, this isn't a thread."
A forum is simply a generic term used to describe any medium where ideas can be exchanged.
That's what's happening here.
A 'thread' of a conversation is the term used to describe the path that a particular conversation or discussion takes.
But that's just semantics, we're losing the thread.
"The forum is over at https://forums.frontier.co.uk/"
"A" forum is over there, too.
There are lots of forums:
There are lots of places where people exchange ideas.
"No true Elite Commander would give an Elite:Dangerous without Thargoids a 10 on Metacritic.
There. Now you have your Scotsman."
Well, if we're counting, that's actually the second one.
That wasn't a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman at all. Get your fallacies right.
I also didn't even say that the findings of that paper are wrong. I just question the competence of the person that wrote it with regards to statistics as well as the importance of the non-profit organization "Xentax Foundation" that isn't even relevant enough to have a Wikipedia page.
I mean... I even agreed with the general finding of that paper and said that Metacritic is indeed bullshit. But nevertheless, objectively and factual, Metacritic is still more relevant than "Xentax Foundation" because it has a Wikipedia page. ;-)
You have hopes that the general public will stop being stupid so Metacritic loses influence? Good luck with that one.
I frankly don't care at all about the remaining 25k backers that are happy with Elite in the current implementation. They'll probably understand why an offline mode would have been important when FD turns off their servers due to bankruptcy. I give this game two years.
I can understand Avalanche perfectly well regarding the curtness of his answers. It isn't worthwhile bothering to write a proper answer to you since you'll ignore 95% of the text, anyway.
I explained that I want to see the end of Frontier Developments because of the way they deal with their customers. 85 days until they refunded me is totally unacceptable. See http://pastebin.com/VcRYjCGy for the whole rationale of why I demanded that refund at all.
(Spoiler: the "Our records show that you backed the game before we committed to an offline mode" figment about the relevance of pledge time was the final straw - but you'll ignore all this in all of your future comments anyway and will argue that we are just bad people with no reasons whatsoever to hold a gripe against FD.)
And again: this isn't a forum, this isn't a thread. The forum is over at https://forums.frontier.co.uk/ where the mods are swinging their ban hammer and locked at least two threads about the offline mode. The only "moderation" happening on Kickstarter is the deletion of whole comments in case of spam or slurs.
No true Elite Commander would give an Elite:Dangerous without Thargoids a 10 on Metacritic.
There. Now you have your Scotsman.
"..reign of dominance"?
Previously so prolific of post.
Now so curt.
What's happened to you?
Could it in any way be related to satisifed Kickstarter backers returning to this thread to call you out on your perspective after your brief reign of dominance? ;-)
So "facts" or "appears"?