by City State Entertainment
I know most people wont understand what i will say because it's for french potentially backers.
J'écris aujourd'hui car nous sommes à 6 jours de la fin du kickstarter de Camelot Unchained. Il reste au bas mot 550k$ pour que les mecs de CSE finalise le budget pour le jeu. Plusieurs raisons pour mettre un peu de $ dans ce projet :
- Le projet en lui même
- Le RvRvR! beaucoup de jeux ont essayé j'ai moi même cru voir avec Guild Wars 2 une porte de salut pour les amateurs de rvr mais rien y fait seul DAOC fut et est toujours pour certains le jeu RVR. Et avec cette équipe tout mes espoirs renaissent. Ils savent comment rendre le RVR interessant en perpétuel changement. Fixé des objectifs qui changent réellement la vie des joueurs dans le royaume mais aussi et surtout pour eux même. Car nous sommes tous égoiste on veut que nos efforts nous récompenses!
- Les différences entre royaumes/race/classe : WoW et GW2 ont malheureusement trop guidé les joueurs en mettant un avantage à tel type de jeux pour telle classe. A l'époque ou je jouais un voleur sur wow nous étions tous avec deux épées spécialisés dans le stun lock. Il n'y avait pas de place à la diversification. Et je retrouvais la même stratégie chez les voleurs de l'alliance... Idem plus ou moins pour GW2. Dans DAOC nous n'avions pas cette contrainte et chaque spécialisations avait des points faibles et des points forts mais il y avait un équilibrage très poussé. Cela dit quand nous commencions un combat nous ne savions pas toujours comment appréhender notre adversaire qui pouvait avoir des spécialisations différentes.
- La difficulté... GW2 et WoW sérieusement sont des jeux trop facile. Je n'ai jamais été un top player non mais pourtant tout le monde réussi après avoir faire la course au stuff à down tel ou tel monstre... Si on en retire de la satisfaction ce n'est rien comparé à ce que peux demander une prise de fort dans CU. Le fort que vous avez pris la semaine dernière qu'ils vous ont repris entre temps a changer il ne va pas avoir les même atouts ni les même faiblesses il va falloir anticiper et imaginer des moyens pour pouvoir réussir.
- Un accès au beta fermé!!
- Le rapport Euro/Dollars c'est le moment les mecs l'euro est fort. Exemple 110$ (ce que j'ai mis) = 84€!!
- Quand j'ai pris la peine de mettre de mon argent dans se projet je me suis tout de suite approprié le jeu c'est bien plus excitant.
- Et il y a tant d'autres raisons => l'artisanat poussé, les échanges inter joueur, la réduction de l'abonnement, la possibilité d'avoir des accès pour les bétas pour nos potes...
The only game I can say I well and truly enjoyed the PvP in was DAoC. I absolutely LOVED RvR there, and my husband can attest that it remains the only one that I have verbally shouted in glee and in despair over the PvP action.
I know this game isn't going to be DAoC v2.0, but I do hope that it will have all the bits that I loved molded into the various components that are part if its creation. It wasn't just the RvR that I loved DAoC for, it was everything from the combat (reactives and chains and having to be active and PAY ATTENTION is something I really, really miss) to the crafting (figuring out how to get the most out of my gear and, oh yeah, possibly KILLING MYSELF when I craft? yes please).
So I really look forward to hearing more and more about the combat. Collision detection, please? And what type of combat are you going for (I don't know if I'm alone in my adoration for DAoC's combat, but I hope I'm not).
As much as I hated stealthers, they do need to be in the game if there is a hard interrupt system. With hard interrupts the ranged classes are appropriately powerful when left to their own devices and they need something to fear. Just the knowledge that 'they were out there somewhere' and you were going to insta-die if you stood there spamming spells was enough to keep people on their toes and moving.
Well you could make a rvr world with a pve arena like a tower defence kille wave after wave ;)
One question, if we have a lot of skills and abilities will there be Macros. I have seen in games with 4 or 5 skill bars full of skills and have them all Macro-ed to one key. There would be 45 skills but you would only have to hit one button over and over. I fine this approach to have very little skill involved. I hope this game does not go down that road on Macro key bindings.
I think its a great idea to approach stealth from a different perspective, though it remains to be seen what the ideas about it really are. The old invisibility-oneshot-invisibility thing is the worst way I've seen it implemented, and I really oppose any sort of permanent invisibility. Having a class getting the guaranteed jump, and then even the ability to vanish if things go wrong is nothing short if ridiculous. This comes from someone who played an Infiltrator in DAoC.
What I would like to see is the ability to dress up as enemy combatant, or partial invisibility in certain places (in shadows for instance). More of a tactical approach than "invisible guy standing in the middle of the road on a sunny day, perforating your artery as you approach".
A class with some sort of stealth and light armor should be very challenging to play, and not allow for ambushes everywhere. Location and time must be chosen carefully. To escape stuff like throw sand/dust in peoples eyes and run away, which shouldn't work against every other class, especially if they're specialized in killing stealthers, if there's such thing.
Amazing updates, everything that needs to be addressed at this stage is being addressed. Don't burn yourselves out please because when your passion is lost for CU ours is also. I really wish I had the finances to secure an earlier beta position but hopefully those who have secured and/or do get in are really helpful.
What IS NOT going to be in the game in regards to stealth sounds amazing. Vanishing acts have their place, at a magic show.
Having camouflage sounds awesome. I tried doing this in DAoC with my scout and it worked to an extent. My armor was all a light brown color to blend with tree bark minus my boots and gloves which were a near match to the overall green leaf colors and grass in DAoC. Bow, sword and shield were all also brown. My character did blend in with the trees really well and I did down a LOT of noobs who didn't use or didn't know how to or what was the face target command. Those who did quickly closed in on me without needing to look. Was always fun when they couldn't figure out where I was because I did blend so well.
Keep the great updates coming and continue working hard on the game, forget the naysayers and sheep.
I expect archers of some form will make it into the game for launch, given the fact that they will be somewhat required for effective siege warfare. I'm hoping that if it ends up being a 'ranger' class, that they arent' exclusively archers. The whole idea as rangers being nothing but a guy with a bow seems silly for me ever since LOTR, where rangers were skilled warriors, or even D&D where they could specialize melee or ranged.
There is nothing wrong with having a traditional Stealth/Invisibility as long as you maintain a lockout time for it. These lockouts should not be circumvented by other abilities as well. If you are in stealth (Which can only be entered when outside of Combat.)) and you attack someone, then you should have to be removed from Combat for 10s before you can re-enter Stealth again. Stealth in GW2 is an example of how to do it wrong. And on the subject of Camouflage I think it has been done well in WoW. DAoC Stealth was just fine except that you could re-enter it a bit too quickly.
Archers/Rangers imo are an absolute must for the game and I have no issues with making them mediocre at everything that isn't Ranged Physical Damage. My Hunter in DAoC for example was pretty terrible with a bow, but that was because I made him specialized with the Spear and ran him with a friend who was a Shadowblade for Gate/Bridge/Dock Stealther Wars.
I have been pushing this game for months now and to hear that it may launch without true Stealth or Archers means I am losing interest rapidly. I'd like to have this clarified so I can inform those I have also talked into backing this project of what the direction now is. I have no interest in a game that is just melee banging against doors as healers/mages stand in the back free casting.
I'm thoroughly bored of PvE in MMOs - it always gets reduced down to the lowest common denominator in terms of challenge and then as the game progresses you become reduced to mindless farming, since that's the only hurdle the designers can put in the way of people getting to the maximum achievements in the game.
One thing I would like to see though is something similar to the practice grounds on the PvP islands in Guild Wars 1. These allowed you to test out builds and strategies and we used these facilities for getting players (in a largely PvE guild) interested and reasonably competent in PvP.
To understand his stance on archery you have to look at a bigger picture in game design.
Specifically look at the balance in the Dragon Age games. With similar gear and level melee damage dealers had a much higher dps rating than the ranged dps toons.
The simple reason for this is time on target. Both killed just as quickly. Archers and mages with lower dps but since they did not have to adjust position as much they had the potential for more time on target.
The difference in the dps ratings of the toons were based on the simple fact that it is more simple to have time on target as a ranged dps. Melee toons had a higher dps because of the travel time between targets was estimated into their time on target calculations. They had more time involved getting into and staying in their melee range band so they did more damage once they got there to do the same damage as the range dps across the same amount of time. It is simple game design math.
Try that balancing trick in an mmo. Gamers will surround your offices with torches and pitch forks.
What he is trying to avoid is high dps toons who by positional advantage in either the x, y, or z axis don't make melee toons not only undesirable to play but obsolete on day one.
Star Wars Galaxies with a starter toon versus a TK Master or a Master Pikeman was a simple contest in seeing if the starter toon knew how to kite. I still play WAR and to be honest it is hard to see a good reason other than teamwork for a kill team or a dungeon team not to play an instant cast spec bright wizard. Your dps is insane. You crit like mad. Can kite with ease. Can work the fringes of a huge battle with no risk to your toon and make other toons who aren't even aware that you are in the battle at times drop like flies.
Having a class right out of the box that makes melee suck is what he is trying to avoid.
A ranged class on the fringe of battle in a free-casting state with no risk is what he is trying to avoid.
I certainly hope Mark and the team find a good answer to the issue. If anyone can then they will.
I enjoy PvE as much as most PvEers, and actually get bored with PvP in the deathmatch format (there's no point to just going into an arena and killing people aside from 10 minutes to kill time). This game shows the promise of a scenario where all PvP is meaningful, makes an impact on the world in one way or another, and isn't being locked into a deathmatch arena ad nauseum. I'm a roleplayer in most games I play, and the simple fact is, PvE focused games, or games without that human element of danger, tend to be low on quality of RP, and very focused on soap operas/tavern RP that tend to give RPers a bad rep as drama queens. I think the PvP only focus of this game will also help to foster a mature roleplayer Community (capital C intended), who will take pride in their achievements in the game, and be bolstered by the randomness of human-driven warfare. There's a lot of potential for solid contribution from those who don't particularly care for combat, through being crafters, and the majority will likely play adventurer types with crafter alts. I personally hope there is a lot of territory to explore in the game to help encourage RP exploration, scouting, conquest, and just getting lost with the chance of meeting someone from an enemy faction. The biggest advantage being the feeling of finding the next fight, or place to set up a fort where there might be resources nearby, as opposed to feeling like you are being railroaded into the next fight. That sense of freedom is big for RPers and non-RPers alike, and the fact that this is a PvP game should mean that picking your battles, and setting up a territory you've claimed should be a large part of it.
On the whole, I am backing this game because it is so PvP driven, and I see a lot of room for a serious Community to grow around it. I expect a proportional number of RPers will expand their niche in a search for something more meaningful than they get in the typical MMO, where you kill the same enemy repeatedly for that purple loot, until you have all the purple loot, and you spend your hours reminiscing about how fun it used to be to get purple loot in a tavern full of people doing the same thing. So, add me to the tally of folks applauding that you are sticking to your guns. This is a unique concept for a game, with so much growth potential that I'm eager to see it work, and that's why I'm supporting it.
One thing I'm curious about is if we'll be able to loot the corpses of those enemies we have crushed, seen driven before us, and whose women (and men too!) are lamenting fervently.
No PVE=less gold farming
Also, it burns when I PVE...
Thought will be PvP, now. ;)
Lol. The only reason i went into Darkness Falls was to either slaughter people trying to level or power level a new alt. I also enjoyed the crafting. It actually was better to fine tune your gear with crafting which i enjoyed. I do hope there is a little of that in CU. Also pve was mostly to farm mats for crafting i felt.
Not sure why there is even a debate about PvE. It has been made clear that there will not be PvE in this game. All PvE would do is take away from RvR and create a segment of the games population who will feel neglected since the game is not focused on PvE.
I hate PVE :/ it s so boring. Soooo ... Sry ..... Boring ^^
Keep true to your vision, there are those of us who think your design is perfect!
If Mark doesn't want crafters being eclipsed by dropped items, then why not have contested PvE dungeons as an alternate (not sole) way of getting rare crafting materials or winning favour of dragons or dungeons that appear randomly (portals?) in the frontier which people can rush to, to fight over a temporary source of power or a relic etc
Grinding instances for uber gear - lame
Invading a dungeon full of demons to get to the relic before the Vikings do, or PvEing for rare materials whilst watching your back for enemy gankers - fun
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I fully agree with non PVE. What is so fun in grinding brainless enemies... Thx for youre persistence Mark :) I m sure MJ gained so much experince over the years, which mades it more than worthy to trust him. Pls backers, dont wish for something like PVE it kills the flair.
@josh its a very good RPG if your enemies are not soulless. PVE feels soulless. I persume you played DAoC for long. A part 2 of a game, film or anything else can never give u the same feelings and chill like its predecessor. (Ok ok ... Very very seldome) all excpect so much in advance. A new title frees you from the "chains of the ancestors". Its a new story now, a new beginning and a new chance. You never know, ^^ (a small opinion to Mobs: maybe CSE likes to play this game as well, maybe CSE plays special MOBs active, maybe Andrew and Mark are going to create a dragon as theyre own Characters ^^ ) there are so much possibilities to have MOBs in game without any PVE content.
@Dennis Hernandez fully agree with you. I m looking forward to exiting battles against strong player. :)
@Monster and demons lover - there is a dragon in the title of CU. ^^ We'll see if it will be the past present time or whole future of the player made story
I really wish folks would go in and read Camelot Unchained's Foundational Principles before they ask for PvE. They explain why CU isn't going for that and why it doesn't need to. :)
I'm all for minimal PvE, but I do hope this game will have some contested PvE dungeons like DF / Laby. A complete lack of PvE would make a game feel very soulless to me - and I'm a pretty hardcore PvPer. It is an RPG after all, not a FPS, what's an RPG without at least a few demons and dragons to kill?
I'm completely happy for other realms to be able to come in and kill me while I'm killing dragons, but something like that needs including imo.
Also while I'm giddy as a school girl to support Mark Jacob's new vision, I don't understand why he's so adverse to making DAoC 2. Let's be honest, we've all been fantasizing about DAoC 2 for years and Mark's just said he could make much more money from a DAoC 2 type game... so why not just make it?
EIther way, I'm excited, but a few contested dungeons would be a BIG plus for me.
Concerning update #10 - Don’t give in to the care bears of the world. NO PVE!. I back this game for 1 reason only RVR/PVP. DAOC is the best PVP/ RVR game in my opinion. I’m not looking for a direct DAOC clone but I am looking for those elements. I have fond memories of gathering multiple guilds to raid a keep that the top guild on our shard held. Legends was the guild. I have yet to replicate the massive fight that happened that day that took 2 realm to team together to try and take down the keep. Please stay true to the pvp beliefs. I look forward to making this the game I play for more than a few month. Hopefully years to come.
Or DIsguise Mastery, I'm being a nerd now.
@simon bartley: The reason I saw giving the "soldier archer" some melee is because I was looking for a trade off for the lack of stealth/camo. I see both archers being equally strong with their bow (albeit in different ways) but then having an alternative strength trade off for not being a sneaky sniper, but there are plenty of other ideas that could be used instead. I look at a sniper/scout archer more in the context of the modern day hunter who tracks their prey, uses camo and tree stands (since the game is going to have the ability to "build" items, I think a tree stand would be an amazing addition for the archer) to set up the perfect ambush for their target, and then waits focusing for the perfect kill shot. They would be more agile than the soldier and probably be adept at firing on the move as well. The soldier archer is the disciplined military unit who focuses on incredible ranged volleys, and firing lines. I picture them being a strength based archer allowing for larger heavy composite bows and thus not being very mobile when firing. I just want a strong warrior style archer instead of always the finesse dexterity based mobile archer (both have their place imo). Archer classes are my favorite type to play. In DAoC I was a scout and it is always my first pick. I just want to see another version represented.
It would be more like Social Cloaking then Invisibility. So you would be more like Batman / Assassin's Creed instead of being like the Predator.
@ Peter eriksen did you play daoc?? With a lucky crit against a non buffed cloth user you could get a 1 shot or take such a huge chunk of hp off that the next shot would kill. If an archer needs to take 5-6 shots to kill then in a game such as daoc you wouldn't ever get a kill. Daoc was the best game I've seen for grp healers reacting and healing so anything over 2-3 shots to get a kill then your targets going to be fully healed or shielded an your going to be mezzed/rooted and obliterated. I've seen ppl talking about reality, how many arrows do you think it take through your chest to kill you ;) I'm not after a uber 4tehwin class which is why I suggested if perma stealthed being removed then archers are maybe made very dangerous at range but almost useless in close in cc. If it takes too long to kill a target then they can just run outa range before you get your 7th arrow into them
It would be a lot of deception and misdirection, could be interesting, I'm just rambling now :-P
would make it more tactical and "realistic", could be a cool system, where you become invisible not because no one can see you but because your blending in and not being noticed till the time you strike.
But of course there is always the meta game, where if your disguise or stealth skills aren't high enough certain classes like enemy assassin / archer classes or possibly other classes with a high enough "perception" can see through it. I'm sure there is a lot of fun things you can do here.
which could be used for both stealther / assassin type classes as well as archer / scout like classes.
@Djazelo yes kinda where I was going with that. cool stuff
@ simon bartley
sorry but as i see it nobody should be able to 1 or 2 shot anything... takes away too much gameplay, and the archer you want sounds like a nuking mage not an archer...
Like I was saying in update #9. I could imagine a cool system using disguises and short duration stealth (like warhammer), would have a kinda assassin's creed like feel to it or something.
Also sounds like they could do a different camouflage system along side of it as well.
I'm interested to see where MJ goes with it, he mentioned the stealth system he wanted to test was batshit crazy. So I guess we will see what happens.
The typical being invisible in the wide open in broad daylight 24/7 stealth of most MMOs is pretty done to death, and it would be cool to try something different.
camouflage/stealth should be influenced by distance, shadow , decor and move.
But unless they come up with a very novel take on stealth it sounds like camouflage can only be used at certain times/places so your going to have to run around exposed in plain view until its almost time to attack and then turn on your camo once your stood in a bush. The fun part of the archer class in daoc was being able to get set up and wait in total stealth and the only thing to worry about was assassin classes who could still spot u stealthed up from a week away
I don't get how taking away the old perma stealth for camouflage would be great for sniping either? The old way in daoc allowed you act like a bow sniper by setting up in the hills alongside a busy road a wait for the right target to pass and BOOM put them down in 1-3 shots before running off and restealthing before your found, the stealth was never an instant thing as you couldn't stealth if within a certain range of the enemy or if you hadn't been out of combat for 5seconds or so
@mark knapp... That's just the kind of archer class we don't want (well I know I don't) as that's basically the death of the archer class. If I wanted to cc melee ill make a melee class, I don't want some half hybrid that's neither a full melee cc class nor a full ranged archer class. If an archer class is made I want a full fat, all out Robin Hood, bad ass, ranged death dealer. A lot of the other games have made that very mistake with archer classes making them a bit of a nothing class to play, this game has no pve to worry about so why not make them pretty much all or nothing bow specialist capable of serious dmg from range but close in in them and they screwed. I would happily be utterly useless in cc as a trade off for the chances of 2-3 shot kills with a chance of a 1shot kill with the slowest, most powerful shot you have and a lucky crit. If given decent kiting skills an archer class shouldn't really get into cc so why turn then into a cc character with a bit of bow dmg?
He mentioned about forums. Are there any official forums because I thought this was still not up?
Really like what I am hearing in this update. Implementing a camouflage style stealth mechanic sounds great. This would be great for the "sniper" style archer. It would be great if there was the ability to spec your archer for the Scout/Sniper role and also the "Soldier" Archer. This is something I think is overlooked in most games that implement archery. I look at the "Soldier Archer" as being like the archers of the roman military. They are strong battle tested military units that do not scout or stealth but bring tactics and siege knowledge. They trade the subterfuge for superior tactics and organized damage (even some melee prowess). It would be great to have both dynamics of archers represented. I am tired of seeing the "legolas" archer or the pet class.
Limited Stealth/Camouflage and potential lack of an Archer class at launch worries me.
@ Eli Amler - I like you idea very much. Noticing a stealther only when you look at him directly, even with him being semi-transparent, seems a cool idea. This is actually what the whole camouflage skill could be like as I just can't imagine making a character less visible without blending him with the background. So semi-transparency is the way to go.
Regarding name tags, I think they're cool, even for enemies, but they could only show up when you're quite close.
Interesting Ideas for combat. I dont see the need to add any PVE elements having a strictly Tri Realm experience makes for a very different game we dont normally see other then the typical WOW clone that everyone says games are theses days. And if any of the elements of combat or game play are similar to what was found in DAOC and Warhammer I know friends who have played RVR was there favorite part of those games.
I think it would be interesting if "scouts" had some kinda last stand option or like a fight and flee attack. ie. say if the player is low on health should have some way of grabbing a arrow or a dagger and using it as a stun to give him another chance to win the battle. I've seen it in movies and games where the archer will be shooting arrows and a enemy may get too close so he pulls a arrow from his quiver and uses it as a close quarters weapon. Be interesting to see little details like that to not have the typical "ok enemies are closing in so ill switch to my sword or dagger.
I did also read a earlier post regarding Warhammers targeting of enemy and friendly this would work nice with protecting the crafters while their building.
I like the fact that the team is taking chances i wanna see some new ideas i know nobody is looking for the same old pvp combat. look forward to getting to test it all out
I do not understand your objection to a spotting ability for scouts. There have been scouts throughout history dating back long before radios were around. It makes little sense to tie spotting to radio's.
Flags, signal beacons, couriers, pigeons, and numerous other things have been used by scouts to communicate. Radios are only the modern means of doing so.
@ Fredric I see your point. I was just at a discussion board that talks about CU where they told me there were a somewhat 15 minute penalty in DAoC which I found too extreme.
@ David Schrank
i think you are veary wrong, sounds like you didnt realy like daoc much... as the CC and the way groups had to Work togeather to not break it on the right targets, while the other grp had to demezz and so on was what made DAoC great.
the Whole combat system, cc and the way resists and so on was used, was what was great, now a day people are just mindless key spamming, raging tossers who cant handle being stunned for 2 sec... its horrible.... bring back DAoC CC! might teach people Group play and some patience Again...
@ Mike Back in Daoc they had a good solution to what you said. When you died and released your body you instantly rezzed back at your starting keep in that zone, in the pvp area keeps or where you were binded. I dont remember if you did get some shorter debuff or not tho.
Example: When you died in a BG you had to run back to the action which took you maybe 3-5 min. If you died in open RvR zone and released you either rezzed back to that starting keep or the keep you were defending, which had it's own bind stone. Meaning you were careful not to simply throw away your life by charging away from your group, especially if you were a spellcaster who got fully interrupted on any hit. Sorry for double post.
I said slightly because we're not trying to make them OP as you (MJ) stated yourself.
MJ Suggestion about consequences:
Instead of letting people wait for a long time for ressurecting, them make them become weaker with a debuff, maybe a stackable one that goes off after some time or when you get awarded "teamwork" points.
Then people can still be meatshields, and of use instead of AFK'ing.
@ MJ Suggestion about archer class.
If they are taking cover and thereby entering the camo state their damage should be slightly better as it gives you another reason to look for those places more, not just for being "hidden"
Also if you are not in some sort of cover (no camo state), meaning all visable, your attack speed should be slightly better or something but not like a minigun spiting out arrows 24/7 like most other mmo's. Cause if not ppl might find it less fun to stay visable like all others and "forcing" you the feel of you must seek those covers in order to be (more) effective.
Just a thought ofc. My point here is why should they mind looking for shelter or vise versa. I do hope however that they become group friendly and not only solo dogs. A mix of both if possible. Making more choices to the player. Maybe like if you want to solo at the moment with your archer the camo is slightly better then if you go with a group for the group buff benefit with a bit lesser camo due to it.
I agree with Izkimar that a limited skillset doesn't equal limited or simple gameplay. Nobody would say chess or go have simple gameplay, yet they are very simple games.
Having said that, I don't mind either the quite simple D3-method (which is very difficult to master, and requires a lot of tweaking for those who don't cheat, ie. use the AH) or the much more complex vanilla WoW (don't know how they do it these days) and similar systems. Both have strengths and weaknesses. Accessibility is D3-system's strength, and both of them are complex under the surface.
To mangle a related quote: make the skill system as complex as necessary, but not any more complex.