by City State Entertainment
What are your plans for a crowd control character? Also as I was talking to some of my guild mates from Blood Of the Fold we agree that we really like the dynamics of character dependability in DAoC is that something you are planning on going with again?
Congratulation to the team for the work and Thank you for the nice update, can't wait for the second part tomorrow. Could we have some info about how many player in a group we will have in CU ? I understand that it may be considered as a point of detail but I was very disapointed by a lot of MMO with only 5 or 6 players in a group. I believe 8 players in a group is the best, it gives more possibilities, more fun, more customization. Thank you.
Having an Archer class is pretty important. In every game that I've played, and will play, there tends to be a class style that I gravitate towards, and if it's not available it can causes disinterest, and actually cause me not to play the game.
There are probably others out there that only play archer style classes, I'm not saying ruin the game for the sake of us that love physical ranged classes- With that said nearly ever single fantasy style MMO has one, please make it happen.
What about some archer skills being ground targets without anything to alert other players unless they are watching closely(like no circles on the ground but you can see the arrow flying through the air with some skills)
A few things.
1st) I would absolutely love for their to be an archer/ranged DPS class. I think that a ranged DPS really gives the players who have the "hit and run" playstyle something that they're comfortable with.
2nd) I *totally* agree about tab targeting. It's fantastic when it's great and it's tedious when it's at its worst. I think you totally hit the nail on the head there. Maybe there would be some sort of restriction on tab targeting for the players who, borrowing a term from WAR, plink their enemies.
3rd) Last but not least, THANK YOU FOR NO GLOBAL COOLDOWN. Seriously. This is one of my biggest complaint about RvR in games, is the idea of waiting until an ability is ready. As a Warrior, I shouldn't need to wait a second and a half to swing my sword again after charging an enemy. It should feel like the combat is real, fluid, and visceral.
Great job, Mark and the team. The game is shaping up to be awesome!
(Also, you guys are jerks for making me consider TDDs instead of the planned Arthurian I was going to go with! You guys and your awesome character models!)
HELL YEAAAAH NO GCD !!!!!!
Great to see an update on the weekend. Wasn't expecting it. Love the amount of information you guys are providing as this goes on. It may help me to sway a few people to potentially give some support as more information is given.
CC and interrupt is a MUST. this made daoc so great.
I wouldn't mind seeing a hybrid system like in GW2, where you can tab target but you can still use your abilities to hit things even if you don't have something targeted, and where projectiles hit things in line instead of going through to your target. GW2 is one of the first I think of when fluid combat is mentioned.
Also, I really do hope you have some sort of archer/ranger class, as I, like many others, usually play that style of class in every game. It would be great if we could have a bit more complexity to it. Things like range penalties or bonuses due to elevations, various types of bows with range, damage, flight time and arc variations. Have limited ammo of what you could fit into a quiver, but give archers/rangers some (possibly weaker) fallbacks if they are forced into melee or run out of arrows.
I suppose on option for mitigating tab-target overuse or brokenness is to limit the tab range once in combat (although I suppose you could just have a general to tab range). Once in combat, an archer is obviously gonna be a lot more vulnerable if they're up in the fray. This would allow the option to exist where tab-target is still viable but risky while ranged target would increase survivability but completely restrict tab-targeting.
As for tabbing around for other classes, the range limit of the tabbing could still function well here. Hypothetically, you could allow tabbing but limit damage when someone is targeted through tab. If the target is found manually then full damage is applied.
If there's a tab-target damage limit, what would it look like? If it only applied to the next ability then people would invariably use their fastest ability to get the reduction out of the way before they started pummeling someone. However, if you restrict the damage reduction to "all damage you deal until the target is selected manually" (meaning that you could tab-target and then click on the person you selected to get negate the damage reduction) then you could really be in business. People would not just have an extra step in the process, they would have to be attentive. If you tab-target someone behind you and just start casting (even if you have to swivel the camera/character to face the target) the activity of engagement is going to be slower, unless you allow /face macros or buttons.
Furthermore, and I think this is my favorite, you could also limit the number of tabs that can be applied or that are effective. If you are only allowed one tab between different manual targets (meaning that the most tabbing you could do is "tab, manual, tab, manual, etc" and only to different targets), that could force people to rely on it much less; those that just want to tab will find themselves without a target a lot and will quickly adapt out of it, and I imagine most people will largely begin manual targeting and only using tab in a tight situation, thereby making it useful and effective but not a common easy-tool.
What about the CC and the interrupt ?
Great to hear there is no GCD.
I really loved the combat system in DAOC instead of the mash buttons fest that the WOW style is like stealther in daoc vs WoW, In DAOC you had to be perfectly placed and timing to hit PA, while in wow you just spam Ambush until you are behind the target, same thing with side styles in daoc, it adds another element to playing melee. Also the casting system in daoc is far superior to wow, no instant dmg gibs, but if a caster is free it hurts like shit.
After this weekend you can take Sundays off.
Auto target key like DAoC is fine, do not put a big range on it, and make structure blocking it (no target through wall).
Once again the rock, paper and scissors system is part of the success of DAoC, as a Ranger/Scout/Hunter, you have to fear some class like Assassins/Heavy tank/Casters, but depends on the situation you can hit and run the Heavy tank, add the assassin when he is attacking another target and using structure to cut the sight for a caster.
So, no I win class, you have advantage and disadvantage on some other class, but your not condemned to lose against one of your predators.
MJ, just wanted to say good job with the updates. It's always good to see consistent updates like this and responding to feedback from the community. With that in mind, I have upgraded my pledge from $50 -> $110. DING!!!
[MJ] FYI, I love archers, play them all the time. I just want to be sure that we can make them a lot of fun to play without them being OP before I commit to our backers that they will be in the game at launch. Trust me, I know just how important it is to have them but I want to take some chances with them during testing.
Thanks for the nice Update!
Awesome to hear there is no global cooldown (i think there is no word that would express how much i hate this in other games)
Maybe it gets answered in Part 2 but how about casting speed and cooldown on skills itself. Will it be like in daoc that there is no cooldown and you can increase you casting speed by some attribute like Dex or smth ?
Cause thats whats ruining other games RvR/PvP when you stand there as a caster and can just cast you main dmg spell every few seconds and in the meantime get raped by some melee or smth. That would be far from fluid in my opinion.
imho DAOC combat and skill system was perfect for an RvR game, even if you could got interrupted and could not move while casting what made it more realistic.
I'm Kyle Hoglund on this one. I play archer/ranger in all games I've played and would be really disappointed to not have them. I like the hybrid approach to targeting, sounds like it could be really interesting. If we can get a system like Michael Sarkissian suggests, it could make an archer a great skill class. Maybe there will be less griping about them being op if there is proven skill involved (not saying that other games archer classes don't take skill, but that seems to be a common gripe.) Seems to me like it could be more like Skyrim ranging. You have a target chosen, but that doesn't mean you will hit if you don't fire at the right time.
Great update. I like not having a GCD. I think there has to be an archer class as there will be a lot of people less than thrilled. Good to hear they are actually thinking it through though. However, best of all was the fluidity comment. There are a ton of games that suffer from this and it's awesome to know this is #1 on their priority list.
How about a crossbow man, or a lancer that throws a spear great distance? Both can be powerful, but limited in abilities. They can play important roles in certain situations depending on how they are are made out.
Oh god yes, YES! I just Shouted out SOOOO loud at my screen after you said: NO GCD. Oh dear god thank you. I have already written a long and elaborate post on reddit as to why i think it should be left out and i just want to, once more, say: Thank you for leaving it out! ;)
Great update, lots there for me and my OH to debate over...
What is the likelihood of there being a targets target option? Also will /stick be making welcome/unwelcome return?
one thing, we need more shrooms, way way more shrooms!!
hey if the people are interested they will watch even if its over an hour long :) and i sure am
No GCD is a really good news, I was so happy to hear it !
I also really like the way you're openly thinking about game mechanics in general (and this tab-targetting issue).
Nice update! I agree giving tab-targeting to archer's does not make much sense, not much skill involved.
I think you guys hit the nail on the head in terms of fluidity of the combat Mark. Whether you love them or hate them, no one cannot deny that the fluidity and re-activity of WoW's and GW2's combat system is pretty spot on and contributes a large amount of those games success. If the crux of your game revolves around combating other players, then that combat has to feel fun, engaging, and fluid.
I'm also glad to hear that you guys are not including a GCD, as well as exploring the idea of a hybrid targeting system. I am very much looking forward to part 2 of this update as well as all future updates. Keep it up guys.
I think a lot of ex-Daoc Archers would be happy with the system that was originally in the game, where you had to actually aim at your target. It was a pretty cool system and meant that skill was needed to play it well.
Please don't make casting bars / shotting bars that says you when the cast is going to end. Let it be like in daoc. In daoc combat is so fluent that you don't need bar like that. It's cool to look at your character while its casting. Looking at the casting bar is easier but it takes the fun from game.
Great info! Thanks for the update!
Personally, I like tab targeting. I like it over the 'run around swinging your weapon hoping to hit people in an arc in front of you' mechanic.
As for an archer class, I think one is needed. It fits the mythos too well to be ignored. Like we've talked about before Mark, one way to validate the archer is ammunition. Make every arrow count. Make arrows something you don't carry a ton of, and make them capable of more than just shooting a bow. Same for mages. A mage should know that by throwing a fireball he or she has exhausted a part of their essence to create such destruction.
Btw, I'm pushing hard to spread the word and get more people pledging. I want to see you wearing something garish by the end of the weekend!
MJ when you say you should see it with the camera. I really hope that doesn't mean a lot of camera shaking. That would just give me seizures, and I wouldn't be able to play CU.
Not going to lie. If there is no archer class. I'd be pretty mad. Well, really mad.
Whoa! Disappearing man at the 5 minute mark!. :)
No cooldwon best news of the day! Awesome
Like the direction this game is going! C'mon peeps lets make it happen!
I like the discussion on tab-targeting and where it does / doesn't make sense. I play an archer of some sort in pretty much every MMO I've ever tried (Mid Hunter in DAoC, Ranger in EQ and EQII... and GW2... and DDO...etc. etc.). I agree that tab-targeting makes it too easy to just "fire and forget." That said.. it's also nice to be able to tab-target just to highlight which target you're actually interested in. Would it be possible to put in a hybrid system like that, where tabbing only highlights your target but doesn't actually impact the ability of your weapon / spell etc. to hit?
At 1 million, please wear a shirt with ducks on it. That would be the ultimate Duckness.
I'm waiting this update all day long ! Thanks Mark ! Camelot Unchained isn't release that it's already a drug :P
yea 2 updates per day is great to keep everyone engaged :-)
Keep up the good work! I'm loving the regular updates!