by City State Entertainment
@stuart gibson i agree. i'll feel like i just threw away my money if there's no stealth (Warhammer stealth would be just as bad) and no archer in the game.
MJ, you MUST not leave out the Archer class!!! It's just too important..I really really enjoy the DAoC Archer classes, I have one on each realm and quite frankly one of my favorites classes to play.
@Rashka agree with you on your initial points. Always played an archer in games because it is my favorite archetype. Hate the feeling that it's been reduced to a caster doing physical damage. I always thought the best part about being an archer was having to choose your arrows to do certain damage types (blunt/pierce/slash) in order to get the most bang for your buck on your shots. If you chose wrong (which you shouldnt have) you would be boned in the fight. Also the feeling of waiting in anticipation for an opportunity whether it was solo camping a road or posting up in a keep. MJ talks about the ability to tab target and the main point I get from his discussion is the ability to focus fire amongst several people. I would agree with a system where maybe you couldn't /assist, but FPS style has never seemed rewarding and basically puts the archer/ranged class at a disadvantage compared to others. BTW this is Rashka from guinevere? played on markran as a scout.
Oh, and I'll just get this in early. My two cents about archers: actual arrows in your inventory would be a great thing. We have a crafter class... it just seems to mesh well together. For that matter, I have always loved "currency spells" like the original Warlock from World of Warcraft. Again, the tension of whether to use a skill or not is a lot of fun in my mind. I just think that characters should have enough abilities to put up a decent fight if they run out a particular kind of resource.
I really hope you DO have archers, and i DO hope they are stealthers like in daoc.
1) for the solo community
2) because it was always an adrenaline pump fighting large fights and seeing a few archers pop out of stealth and having to deal with it.
@Filth/Taldren - That was at the end of ToA and early Laby time. Critshot bypassed bladeturn but was changed into a normal hit iirc. It was around the time i left daoc so not sure about bypassing brittle guards as well.
It is always important what point in time you are looking at. During OF i was in a keep defense, fired 50 arrows, zero hits. Alle shots hit BT, PBT, were blocked or dodged. And during ToA casters ran around solo hoping that stealthers attack them, knowing that BT and 3 brittle guards meant they had total immunity against 4 attacks. The day i quit daoc was when such a caster nuked me to death in under 3sec, and later that day i found an afk SB and it took me over 30sec to kill him.
@Taldren - Glad that the change was after my time.
From what you describe, this sounds like the EXACT combat system I have been itching for in an MMO for years. Thanks for the great update! For me, it was the most exciting one so far.
1. I love the idea of having both "lock on" abilities and "free aim" abilities in the game. They both have their place and it might make for some interesting choices for the player. I'm especially sold on the idea that the most powerful long-range abilities should need to be manually aimed and slow enough that they can be dodged. It could be especially cool if the strongest abilities ALSO had huge resource costs (I know we haven't even talked about resources yet), but it would be neat for there to be a risk in using your strongest abilities. More player choices in the moment = a more fun game. Of course, this all depends on the server supporting that much collision detection. It sounded like you were considering that, but it would be good to get clarity.
2. On that note, it would be awesome to have more reactive ways to block/dodge attacks. I think Guild Wars 2 was on the right track with it's rolling system, but I hate that rolling in that game is a guaranteed evade. Camelot Unchained could really up the level by having rolls, active shield blocks, the ability to hit large projectiles back with Swords (Legend of Zelda style), and other goodies.
Anyways, thanks for the update! I'll look forward to discussions about the direction for the combat in this game after the game has been fully funded. :)
It seems like every view that you and the rest of the team have are the same views I have shared for MMO's way back to the early days of EQ and DAoC. Some of my views, I think like yourself have changed over time with different things coming into MMO's now. Some of the may be popular and some not so much. But the idea you seem to have for tab targeting sounds great.
For myself, after experiencing many different types of fps style and third person style archery, fps style without the tab targeting is most immersive. The best archery I have experienced in any game I have played comes down to two games, Age of Chivalry and the first rendition of Darkfall. Both felt like the physics of arrow projection, arch ect. were near spot on. It wasn't overboard with true to life physics nor was it bland. Having that one aspect of the game alone so good made for some of the most epic pvp battles.
Anyway, the tab targeting view is exact to mine as are all of the other principles that have been shared. For a long time I had thought me and some long-time gaming friends were the only ones that felt the same. Thank for (pending enough backing) creating this dream.
P.S. If you have not experienced archery combat in either of the games mentioned above, you have been missing out on something truly adrenaline pumping.
As Filth said, the bladeturn change. However, they eventually made it so that archers functioned exactly like casters. Arrows are now considered spells in DAoC.
@Rashka - crit shot destroyed bladeturn and brittle guard without missing in ToA from what I remember and the only caster with a PBT was a supp runemaster (or an RM spec'd like 26? supp, which means they were running 12?s pbt or they were running speed - soloing they would be running speed). Also, as I wrote, the only reason I would argue for parity between caster combat and archer combat, is if it comes down to archers simply not being in the game at all due to balancing difficulties. I'm certain they could work it like DAoC, where the archer controls damage type and physics allows for shots to extend from heights and while also allowing shots to be blocked or dodged (rather than resisted), but I'm pretty sure archers "casting arrows" are less boring than archers that don't even exist.
Archery system in DAoC was "oh so sweet". They were just archers and not arrow-casters.
You had your bow, your quiver and your very self crafted arrows! Three kind of arrows to choose from depending on what kind of enemy you were facing.
Having the possibility to load your arrow and wait patiently until your enemy was were you wanted. Then release your arrow when you want and load again. Complex to master, and extremely satisfactory. Felt like true control over your arrows.
About Global Cooldown.
Im not a big fan of these kind of system. I was raised in DAoC and I find it quite easy to get a slow weapon with an outstanding damage output and just roam around smashing insta-skills (aka WoW).
To me, every melee skill should trigger when your weapon speed allows you to. Much more strategic and challenging than just spamming insta skills. Also gives a meaning to haste spells and quickness stat.
Just keep going that way :)
I think one decision that will have a quite large effect on the feasibility of tab targeting is whether or not there will be collision detection in CU. Without collision detection, it's often practically impossible to click-target who you want; but with collision detection, it's possible.
In addition to collision detection, it would be nice to hear CSE's opinions on movement speed. Does every group really need to move at speed 6, or should groups with large and heavy or just heavily armored members move slower? Should armor that is more protective slow down your movement, and should swinging heavier weapons use up more endurance (in case there will be such a stat)? Should there be a balancing act between movement speed and weight of equipment? Think about the crafting options this would open up...
Was really glad to hear about the focus on combat feeling smooth. In my opinion WoW is hands down the best feeling combat in any MMO to date. I am not a fan of the game overall but combat feels great. I think one of the major thing's WoW has right with combat that gets overlooked in many MMO's is the sound. You can hear when people pop various cooldown's or use certain abilities. That combined with visuals makes the player feel in control when fighting.
I don't know why, but I always felt like GW2 had very unresponsive combat. Almost every ability felt like it had a queue, making it feel very delayed in everything I did. Maybe this was just me, but it does concern me whenever GW2 is used as a reference to how good combat should be, when GW2 combat honestly wasn't that great. I feel like Tera, for instance, (despite the actual game not being very good) had a much more polished combat system. The "hybrid" tab-targetting in GW2 ultimately just felt like a watered down system that never really knew what it was.
Regarding vikings and colours: Colours are fine - it was more the general design that confused me, especially ornamental stuff in the place of armour. That is if the designs even wore armour.
Global Cool Down: Yaaaay! I always loved the use of next swing styles in DAoC and I think that really helps with the immersion.
Targeting: I have to say I like the way Lotro did it with the melee stuff. Some attacks are single target only and some are AE and the AE attacks do less damage to a single target and do not have to be aimed at something specifically - but the basics are still tab targeting.
Archers: I was really sad when the classic archer system from DAoC was removed and replaced with a physical caster style. I always liked being able to go through the phases of shooting an arrow and choosing a target on a whim with a projectile already on the string. I would love to see something like this return.
Keep up the awesome work!
@Taldren - At what point of time was it that archers were able to bypass caster protection? From my memory it was the opposite, casters gained more and more protection up to ToA when they ran around solo on purpose, hoping that stealthers were foolish enough to attack them.
ok this is going very bad, i watched the video for the third time now.
Well you know Mark, we are here for you, we are at least 5.000 people to trust you, to have faith in you, to believe in a good RvR, i see all those comments everyday since the start of this kickstarter.
I'm in a tremendous need (i don't even know what tremendous exactly means but i think it's kind of huge) of informations, and i am not alone.
We need to hear from you what YOUR ideas are about Camelot Unchained's pvp.
We need to hear it because i am sure you have a ton to tell us, you already wrote 12 principles, and i agree with them, and i am gonna read them again.
I know we have a Q&A thread. I'm aware.
Please continue to make videos if you have the time to make them, to speak to us about what do you think about the classes maybe, but certainly what will be the maps or the fights.
I am sure you have a ton of those ideas, spread them out, let us jauge them, judge them ?
I bring friends here, but not a lot, they ask for informatiosn too, i give them everyday but in fact it is a few infos we have, even if some of them are full of qualities and hard work, and i'm sure you work hard and sleep less.
Cheers from France !! and thanks for the short video for french community.
Long live CU
And as Taldren said , sorry for the spam but i have to say this, i believe that the interrupt system in daoc was one of the best, because it was adding a huge level of complexity, you hit a caster you interrupt him, but it created many problems, what i DO believe will be the best for camelot unchained is that as a caster/healer you dont get interrupted by dmg, but you get interrupted by specific spells that have the "interrupt" "ability" on them, so people will not interrupt you through dmg, which is the easy eay out, but they should use specific abilities that are meant to interrupt the enemy casters.
Sorry for the post spamming, but the thought of spell chains akin to DAoC melee chains just went through my head and ... I LIKE IT. ;)
If you make everything fixed DPS like melee was in DAoC, and by that I mean EVERYTHING: Spell Casters, Archers, and Melee, I think it will all balance out.
In Camelot it was all about the slowest bow to get the most damage per hit, but then you opened yourself up to lose the most due to player defense (dodge/bladeturn). Where a faster bow would give you less damage, but being blocked or whatever didn't hurt as much. That is, until DAoC made the stupid mistake of allowing arrows to bypass these protections and destroying this balance.
This would mean that Archers/Casters would need base ranged attacks that would be replaced by ability 'styles' the same way as melee in DAoC had an autoattack that was replaced by a weapon style.
And because i am in a groove, i thought a very simple option for archery that would be, you have 5 archery skills, and you tab target, but you need to calculate the distance of your opponent, your 5 abilities ( obviously you will have more ) will be like this:
1. Shoots the target for e.g 1000 dmg ( if the target is at 100-150 ft away from you if not you hit for 50% dmg)
2. Shoots the target for e.g 800 dmg ( if the target is at 70-100 ft away from you, if not you hit for 50% dmg )
3. Shoots the target for e.g 600 dmg ( if the target is at 50-70 ft away from you. )
and so on, and so on, why reduced dmg when the distance is lower? because it's easier to calculate the distance the closer the opponent is )
This will add one more layer of complexity and dicision making in archery combat. I will try to shoot some more ideas that i may think as long as i think them ;p
With regards to an Archer class; I played a Hunter and a Scout in DAOC and I have to say, from a player's point of view, it's *great* fun to sit in ambush and wait for that juicy unsafe target to take down with one powerful shot.
Once you popped the arrow, you unstealthed and became targetable and were very vulnerable. I know I was never afraid to fight a Ranger or Hunter on my Sorc or Cleric solo.
You know Mark in fact, one of the very best feelings of ranging solo out into the Frontiers in DAOC was that feeling that someone could be stalking you, hunting you, the entire time. Please let me state that no other game has *ever* given that feeling of real danger than DAOC. I think the stealth archery classes really *added* to the game and didn't take away from it. But then - I was never, ever, one to cry OP. I didn't participate in using a Buff Bot, I played my own characters, I ran solo probably 60% of the time or just joined up with "the zerg". I do understand though, that my single experience probably is not the majority and there was a lot of whining about Stealth classes in general on forums.
But I like them. I think they're integral for fear and danger generation... and I think PvP benefits from them as long as they are suitably vulnerable to other classes as well. Just my two cents -- thanks for making the update videos!
@Filth - I disagree. Every MMO since daoc treated archers and casters the same, instead of fireballs they cast arrows. Boring. In that regard daoc was great with bow control and range depending on elevation.
Well done on these concepts! I think they are fantastic.
What a lot of people DON'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND is that these aren't your traditional vikings. This is your interpretation of some kind of post-apocalyptic viking and I think you've hit the nail on the head.
Adding to my previous comment, i believe that the targetting in GW2 is one of the best, you tab target, but if someone goes in the front he gets the hit for himself, as well as if u are melee u hit everyone around you. But i believe what GW2 did wrong is, that not everyone should get the full dmg. I believe the best option is that you tab target one player, and no matter how many people are next to him, you hit that person for 100% of the dmg, and then you hit about 50% dmg to everyone around that very target. because you never realy aimed for the other people. if you hit more than 5 people you can reduce the dmg down to 25% to everyone else except the tab target you have.
Nice news. Hope Archer will be in the game tough. keep up the good work
Definitely need to figure out a way to balance archers so they are in.....and Trolls. Trolls and archers.
Keep up the good work guys.
Not even done with the video and I just want to say *YES* yesyesyes to NO GCD!!!!!!!!!!!!
Really? Some people have nothing better to comment about other than having a black shirt for sequential updates? Guess those ppl need to realize some people wear uniforms or favorite colors to work. Hell. I dont change for three days! Saves on the laundry and water. Thanks for the update. Personally I click on everything. But I can agree with a target system that feels right for the class or roll.
Just to clarify, did MJ just said that there will be NO form of targetting ala FPS that recent games like TERA and TESO implemented? I hope so, because for myself i believe that mmorpg need more strategy and less aiming. But can someone confirm this?
nice video, i like the talking, and srsly need more ! i don't care you can open a stream if you want i will follow it xD
I couldn't agree with you more.
1) I think that on next hit combat is the best way to go personally. No GCD, no cooldowns, attacks just hit on your next auto attack swing (like DAoC). It makes haste and weapon speed far more meaningful than they are in games like WoW where you simply want the slowest weapon available because the instant attacks use a %age of damage range.
2) I'm also a proponent for tab targetting - the reason being, in action/reticule style action based MMOs you don't even have to pay attention to what you are doing (in melee) you simply run around swinging your sword. Further, I agree with an earlier poster that in regards to archers/casters/or any other class, I greatly prefer to pan my camera and see what's going on around me rather than being coerced into staying unidirectional while in combat. Tab targetting may feel boring to archers or casters from the development perspective, but that doesn't mean that it's not engaging play from the player's perspective, especially since the best archers won't simply be tab targetting and attacking the closest player, they will be manually selecting players based on what constitutes the most opportune target.
3) I definitely think that this game needs archers. I don't know that they have to have stealth like they did in DAoC (if that's what people felt made them OP when coupled with critical shots and range) and I definitely would hate to see them saddled with pets (since a lot of people hate pet classes due to AI and pathing issues). Worst cast scenario, perhaps treat archers exactly like casters except they do physical damage instead of magical damage. You don't have to redesign the archetype to prevent it from being OP.
Gee.. forgot to delete the last sentence...
As far as stopping tab-targeting spam, I like Brad Jenkins's idea of having limited number of arrows and bolts BUT that would mean that to be useful during a long battle you would have to develop secondary melee skills or have a fairly easy access to a store... Wait! I've just realized we'll have crafter class, so they will take care of supplies LOL :-) So would any ammo limitation work? I am not sure.
Now what about the casters? Spells aimed at a single opponent create that same tab-targeting issue as for archers. Limiting the pool of mana (or some other source of energy/ammo) would impede the use of other types of spells unless there were two types of energy, I guess.
(I'm not talking about AOE, or other with splash dmg),
In current MMOs archers are just physical casters. What made archery unique in daoc was the ability to knock an arrow and hold it until you pressed the button again in order to shoot it, giving a lot more control. The other great thing was that elevation modified archery range, adding to the immersion. Is anything similar planned for CU? Even WAR moved away from those concepts.
On a general note, in current MMOs there is no actual range feeling. When i am able to see facial details of an enemy then ranged combat feels like melee. I hope CU is able to recreate that feeling of ranged combat daoc had and moves away from those short/middle range fights in current MMOs.
A fluid combat system can achieve those things for an archer (class). In my opinion current MMOs made skills faster and faster, up to the point a GCD was needed as adjustment. Fast skills also mean that the range must be rather short now otherwise the enemy has no time to react. Good example for comparison is indeed archery in daoc. Crit shot around 3sec, normal shot 2-2.5sec iirc. In current MMOs those are the special attacks, normal attacks are like 1-1.5sec. Negative example is AOC imo. The animations are very fast and you are reacting accordingly, yet the combo system demands rather slow input which mismatched the animations; felt completely out of snyc to me.
Furthermore, i do agree with Fredric when it comes to pets. In many games archers are a pet class, and as much i love archer classes i hate pet classes. It means i have to rely on that stupid pet AI to be fully effective, giving away some of my control to the pet AI which can never make it up. Despite being die-hard archer player i went so far and skipped WoW hunter because of it, and in gw2 i decided for rifle warrior instead of ranger because of those stupid pets.
My favorite archer from any MMO was AC1. I wish a game would go that direction again with it.
When looking at interesting combat systems for MMOs there's some really interesting and great examples that would work for this type of setting. The very best example of TERA online where there is no TAB targeting for combat but it is still present outside of combat to interact with players and NPCs.
Another interesting combat system is Neverwinter Online which is a hybrid of TERA and GW2.
A fully skill based system takes a lot of time, planning and effort to get right so it's understandable if the game doesn't go for that (or isn't even aiming for it). But sticking to a regular 'sticky tab targeting+spam number keys in a rotation' system would be a real shame. It's boring to perform and you don't end up reacting to what's actually happening, instead sticking to a rotation like an automaton.
Hopefully you find the right combat system for Camelot Unchained.
At first I was a little sceptical towards the viking colors etc. but the more I look the more I like it. I also realize that gods gift to man, via the prophet we refer to as MJ, daoc had shiny colors on characters as well. What it didnt have were shiny enviroments. But considering how amazing the models are built I will wager my first born child that I will get chills down my spine when running around the forests in midgard when CU is released. And MJ, I love the black shirt, I might donate some extra if you keep it on for the rest of the donation period.
Regarding archers I find it necessary to have them in some way. Having melee damage, ranged physical damage and casters is a really winning concept. And thank god no global cooldown.
What I wonder is if you have anything clear about casters and interrupts. In daoc you were dead as a caster if something came close enough to you, Quickcast was ok but pressing it wrong and still bye bye. In the W-game, you could stand still while five people were bashing you and still get your sparkling spells off.
I love the updates, but my girlfriend is almost too tired to fake interest when I show her screenshots from daoc beta and forward. "Look, you had to jump of the horse at this spot to get to DF" "Oh, if you run there while Gjalpinulva was in the air you're dead" "Didnt grind in spindel so youre aggro to svartalf..good luck getting into malmohus."
Then I smack up a picture of skona ravine and just gaze at it for a minute or two.
@ Stoe I agree. Also MJ states what I said in my earlier post in the regular "Comments tab" We NEED backers, aka players, altho more money from our current backers is always good but I prefer try bring more people who will be delighted enough to stay and play this game, rather then us backer pledging x2 x3 times or amount we first put in.
Cause in the end, the more players, the better, no need to merge servers or such.
This is by far the best Kick Starter team I've been a part of. All the important aspects of an MMO are being thought out in depth by all of you at CSE; moreover, you are keeping us fully informed along the way. Keep up the great work CSE, you guys are outstanding!
Love that there is no GCD! (surprise, surprise)
Great Update. Great Shirt. Great Ducks. =]
I remember having a lot of fun on my Scout on Mordred in DAoC.. memories....
I don't have much time tonight to comment your video, just : Thanks. Than you MJ for hearing us, even in the smallest details, and for your implication to let us know that you do hear us.
As always. Thanks so much to MJ and all of the team for taking your time to post updates withing a short time. Since I've always liked archer type, especially Daoc yes, not like all others jumping around and spamming tons of arrows, just like a spell or hit from melee, it should hurt alot on inpact.
And last but not least, I do hope IF there would be some archer class in CU, skip the pets for all thats still holy. Sure Hunters (Mid) had em, but not Ranger (Hib) with some self buffs and Scout (Alb) able to use shield to slam-stun folks. I've tried to like archers in most mmo's, wow, lineage2, WAR, Aion etc but nothing came close with Daoc's types and you shoot 1-3 arrows for massive output, not OP but alot better then spit arrows like some minigun.
Yes I did play spellcaster most of my time but really had my quality time for soloing with my Ranger. And no I was not melee ranger. Great stuff btw and once again, keep up the good work! My prayer is heard, no GCD and no 1,2,3,4 keyboard spam :-)
Getting to be the first RR10 Ranger on Merlin was the most fun i've ever had in an online game....I need to relive my ranger days. There has to be archers!!!
I really don't like reticle style targetting, for the simple fact that I want total control over my camera. Being able to pan around while cruising at speed6 in daoc was very important and unfortunately, no other game has given so much control over the camera as daoc did.
Also if I wanted to play a game where I needed to aim, I'd just play an FPS game.
@MJ: Great video! I'm so glad Fluid Combat is a priority! I think the lack of combat fluidity/GCD issues really hurt poor WH online. Made it feel clunky.
I'm sure you can work in an archer class. I'd just suggest making them part of groups, and not like archers in daoc. Then I'm sure balance will follow.
Awesome update. I can't wait for part 2. Big congrats on the weight loss also. Picking all those tiers was a good workout? ;)