by City State Entertainment
Reticle??? Are You kidding? --> USE skillshots!!!
a.Tunnel vision: In a TPS RvR to switch FPS? Your sight would be impaired. In FPS games you move your mouse very quickly to cover your blind spots. I dont want this in an RvR MMO.
b. Performance: in a 50v50 battle lets calculate the flying projectiles...
Due to the smallest lag its no matter if you aim good. You will miss the target because you dont have a 'real-time' view of the action.
I DO belive in a hybrid system: beside tab targeting you can add some 'skillshots' !(like in League of Legends!)
You can do it from TPS,many times just 2d calculations, and the whole thing is much easier to deal with during programming.
ability: fireball/ice shard/exploding arrow
The fireball is a one step more comlicated skill shot, but you can see the new dimension better.
You hit the ability, and an arrow will show the direction of it.
The direction of this arrow follows your mouse (If you cant get this check LoL).
Left click with the desired direction or hit the abilty again to release it.
The ice shard and the exploding arrow will explode on first contact,
but the fireball will get through the enemy, or you can hit the ability again to explode for bigger damage.
This is just a tiny example, but your choices are endless with skillsot combinations.
Skillshots like this will clearly raise the variety, you dont have to change to FPS/reticle view, and you wont spamming few keys like an idiot mindlessly to deal dmg.
Skillshots for snares, cone skillshots for close aoe dmg, or placing some area effect...
There should be archer rdps classes in the game. No question!
I don't understand the fear of them.
MJ mentioned that rdps classes have to stand still for certain abilities.
This is crucial in this argument. You should put the very high damage abilities into this slot. With a small or bit higher chaneling (1,5sec-2,5).
This will reduce the high threat. Insta skills while running should be limitied in dmg, range. Just minor snares for lil kiting (not OP, just small tools)
Tanks should have abilities like this : redeuce the incoming ranged dmg and reduce your movement speed. --> At sieges you will have an aid from the archers.
A siege without archers btw? I cant imagine a good one.
+ Guard system from the tanks for the squishies.
Squig herders and SWs were never OP in WAR. If someone caught you in close combat the only option was to flee for your life.
But with proper positioning, and aid you can be deadly of course.
And POSITIONING is the main thing in an RVR game imo. If you can flank the enemy archer/mage/healer line, you almost got the win.
If you defend the high ground with coordination, you should pierce the enemy.
Can someone explain what's the big deal about Global CoolDowns, and why some games have them and some don't?
I understand the concept (you have a short CD after each action before you can do something else), and I'd imagine it would be useful to limit mindless spamming, but it appears there's more to it.
Agree completely on MJ's views on targeting. TAB-targeting is great in many cases, but there are better targeting systems for certain uses (AoE), and it just doesn't make sense in others (unfailing archer snipers able to pick one enemy out of a straggle).
I loved playing my Scout as a pure archer in DAoC and archers are generally the first class I play in any new game.
Lack of a ranged attack class, outside of magic users, would be a big downside for me personally.
If CU overcomes the problems with lag that both DAoC and WAR had when more than a group of people were present then a reticle targeting system might work really well.
However what worries me is that if archers are the only class that needs to deal with movement and manual targeting in the busy environment envisioned by the devs (and the potential lag that may come with it) they may not be as useful as other classes.
A DPS class that struggles to get its damage on target is not going to be a desired member of an RvR group.
That pushes them towards the lone camper role that is used as an example of a poor class in the video.
Some folks here have a wrong picture about daoc scouts when it comes to melee. Yes, high shield spec gave you shield slam stun ability. A stun is a powerful weapon but truth is that is was not the main reason people specc'd for it.
First, gear resistance. Scouts were able to either go thrust or slash. For the stealth wars that meant their melee damage was neutral at best but usually with a penality to damage due to resists while their enemies usually had a bonus against them, and neutral only in rare cases. So out of the box scouts had a disadvantage in melee.
Second, dual wield. That cut shield defense in half. Rangers, NB, SB were all dual wielding; exception was the hunter but he had a pet, a second attacker, also reducing shield effectiveness.
Due to those reasons no scout had the desire to stay/specc in melee because the odds were stacked against him, and that high. Your damage was reduced by default, your shield defense was usually half by default, your enemy had a damage bonus against you by default.
Stunning the enemy alllowed the scout switching back to bow (counter to first problem) or escape and restealth, trying to get back on his terms. The big plus a shield offered was /guard and /block. In terms of stealth wars /block was great against other archers shooting you because it forced them to decide either to break off the attack or try to get into melee range, giving the scout the initiative.
As for the tab-target, please if you are going to limit archers, LIMIT THE CASTERS! Casters with their always maximized damage and sub-second casts post-ToA is what ruined DAoC for many people, myself included. It's ok if casters are glass-cannons like they were in early DAoC, but when you turn them into tin-autocannons, it stops making sense. Please don't let the casters rule this game like you have with DAoC and WAR.
Not too big of a fan of tab-targeting, though I have enjoyed plenty of games with it. To me, the combat just gets a little old feeling as I don't really feel like I need to pay attention to what's going on as much and resort to a repetition of keys. GW 2 did a good job I think though and if we see a expansion of that system with ranged aiming reticule then it would be fine. Melee shouldn't be left out for further interactivity either, I want to see ways to perform dodges, blocks, interrupts and ways to critical to keep combat interesting.
The reticle targeting suits well for games like Chivalry because there aren't any support class in the game. I encourage you to try games using the reticle targeting like Neverwinter or Tera.
Instead of using the term "realistic" would using the word "authentic" be a more accurate description of what you want to do? like make the world and combat as believable as possible given the circumstances and lore.
Dear other backers and CSE.
Haven't read all 160+ comments, so apologies for any redudancy in statements/ideas. As we're talking a Realm vs Realm PvP game for me a level of skill and proficiency should be in the game with a basic but believable hitbox & damage system based on weapons and damage types.
Think FPS games (recticle targeting), which is really well done in melee game as Chivalry: MW. Yes, this will favor the "younger" dexterous people and those that generally have more skill using this type of targeting.. though one can compare these guys and girls to the battle champions of their day and age. The one's you want on your side and dread facing on the other guys side.
However I'd also want to advocate this system (be it some form of tab-targeting or hybrid) to support rank & file and support/strategist roles. As a casual player I lack the time to hone my skills and besides that I ain't that good in FPS type of aiming. However I do wanna contribute to the realm-team and don't have the need to be "the best" I just want an enjoyble game experience. I think this could be possible as a rank and file soldier or support/strategist (shout / buff) class less dependend on FPS aiming for contribution in those straight up fighting situations.
An example of rank and file could be by certain weapons combo's like spear or sword and large shield, which allow for grouping up with a few others to increase the power of that group (1+1=3). I have the scene from Vikings series in my mind typing this with them on the beach facing the English outnumbering them by at least 2:1 (Please do forget the fact that these Vikings clearly outclassed those Arthurians in 1v1 straight up twitch combat ;p)
Secondly using these weapons would be less "twitchy" by allowing a form of hybrid targeting (maybe less chance to hit etc.) and ease of use (e.g. shield up blocking for you and your mates).
I guess such a hybrid system could make the game also attractive to the niche casual and older players (plenty of those DoAC fans, who have +10-15 years on the new MMO generation).
just my 2cp. Keep up the good work.
lol that dino is after those poor ducks :) anyways sound really great, only thing i dont like is camera shaking when it comes to action skills.
I think that perhaps having the DPS class, and other classes, being able to spec into what skills they are good at would be partially beneficial. Since there are no item restrictions outside of your phyiscal ability to use the item, it would make sense that everyone can become proficient to a degree with any item they can pick up. Rather than an archer class, perhaps make one of the skill specs for the DPS class focus on archery (use of long/shortbows), as well as use of crossbows if such are included (as separate from archery, because longbows and crossbows have very little in common in actual practice), while another might be heavy weapons with blades, or blunt ends, bladed or blunt one handed weapons, daggers, etc. Allow significant proficiency with maybe two weapon types, or two distinct skill sets, one primary, one secondary, or something similar. I can't really make many useful comments without knowing more about the system, which sounds like it will contain fluid stats to some degree.
I know there are no limits on gear, and one thing that I hope will be possible is for proficiency with that gear to work with any character, regardless of class (with perhaps bonuses for warriors to use weapons, while magic users or healers don't get the same kind of bonuses). The biggest tragedy with all of that freedom of gear would be the possibility that the class you pick pigeon holes you into a specific gear set anyway, making it so you really have no choice of what to use to be effective.
Going back to the archers, there could be somewhat of a compromise between tab targetting and a reticle system. In Age of Conan, there is a tab targetting system for archers, but if someone with a bow zooms in, they get a manual aiming reticle and in aiming manually, they get a significant boost to range (25-50%). Something similar could be applied, where there could be some kind of significant bonus for a more difficult playing experience, possibilities could include extra damage, a boost to range, and a 0% miss chance from the random number generator if you work manually, because it would already be hard enough to hit a moving target by aiming. Those with some form of handicap to playing at the faster pace would still have tab targetting at standard effectiveness, while those who want more of a challenging experience could also play as they like. I don't think the melee combat will come down to face opponent > strike opponent > tab target next opponent, but rather will include damage arcs based on weapon reach and necessity for movement (mainly because this seems to be a standard these days). I just hope archers get a system that is as exciting and dynamic as the melee is likely to be.
A paladin was my main so I only played a scout into thidranki bg, but I loved the scout class in DAoC and really want to see that type of class back in the game. I don't think it's any different from a Mage class tab targeting to be honest. If it's in for one, it has to be in for the other.
And a support class ala the minstrel. Loved my minstrel :)
Hard interrupt would be fine, classic ranged archers like in DAoC also.
Would love to see return of hard interupt or an adaption of that system! More importantly, please no hybrid healers!! The trade off to heal is not to be viable in combat!!
@Creigh - I second your notion of having range increased for certain abilities based on the physical height differential (like castle walls). In seige, that makes a huge difference. If it starts to get over powered, you could decrease the hit % for every X yards over Y max distance. But at least have a chance to hit something with some long-range arrow shots! :)
@Doug. I love the music and the intro animation of CU. Great background music can really help a game's feel - and I am encouraged by the music so far! :)
@Simon. I appreciate the feedback. I played DAOC at launch and well into the TOA days - and as a Mid player, I remember Scouts (Archer/Melee) and Nightshades (Assassin/Caster) and all of the other crazy hybrids. I always found that having that variation made the game more...diverse...but even in DAOC, each class (such as a Scout) ended up with the FOTM spec, so for a time they always took shield. I'm hoping for more of the rock-paper-scissors concept where each class/ability would have one or more counter class/abilities that they were weak against - and some that they were strong against. In regards to the example of an AOE Fire Mage in Plate Armor - I think that could work as long as the plate armor had some negatives (like only half mana regen or 25% spell effectiveness reduction, or drastic casting speed reduction). I'm not saying that there wouldn't be some major balance headaches - and certain areas/environments would clearly favor some classes/specs over others - but I'm hoping they can move away from the over-worn melee tank-caster dps-archer dps-assassin-healer-and a couple hybrid classes. I think many of the current games gravitate to the more simple model to dumb it down for the players (broader appeal) - WoW was so easy, my daughter started playing solo when she was 12. But I DO hear what you are saying - no one would expect an archer to be able to use a shield slam - but I think that is what kinda made DAOC fun - but I'd like to kick it up a knotch so you don't know if that same Scout had over-the-top archery, had some melee, had some shield, had some magic, or what. In other words, I'd rather not be able to template an encounter stickly by the class. But again, I understand your concern and your opinion is valid. I just hope they will push the boundaries on convention here.
@Rashka, I know about rvr, played daoc a long time ;p. My point was that people who clearly didn't understand wow's pvp or its class balance post about it as if its combat system wasn't intricate, mostly balanced, and difficult to master. It was hugely popular for a reason and there are some good aspects of it that merit looking by the Devs. But MJ already to eluded to that, so I'm not worried.
Mark, as probably one of the oldest players (68) in DAoC and hopefully in Camelot Unchained, believe me when I say that tab targeting is very helpful to arthritic fingers. I do think that it has to be relative to the game play and not just there for old guys like me. I am not a sword and board type player (too slow) but love playing my caster/pet classes and even archers. Hopefully, in all the discussion, a useable system of tabbing will be created. As for the Viking Art work, loved it all except the Jaws belt on the female, too distracting. I can understand Shawn T's comments, but if the game is to enjoy some good RvR, then the system should also allow for those of us with slower reflexes and other disabilities to play. This does not mean rehashing the old way, but trying to figure out a new and better system for us older folks. One last thing, the /face command is a great command to locate the general direction of a player that has attacked you, maybe it could be limited to last attacker type of face command. Just saying.
Has anyone mentioned anything, bad or good, about the music in these updates and in the kickstarter intro? I think its great!
I'm glad that the idea of tab-targetting is not being fully embraced in this game. Archers and magic users always seem lacklustre to me, due to tab targetting. I'm a fan of using a reticle and having to predict the arc that the arrow or perhaps fireball might have to travel, or at least dictating where it will go through manual aim. One thing that "The Elder Scrolls" has done well is getting that feeling that an archer really is an archer, and not just a person pressing a button to make damage numbers appear. I know that playing in an online environment makes the physics calculation more taxing on the system, but if it could actually feel like an archer character is shooting a bow, or a mage is strategically placing their spells, rather than centering things with a tab target option, that would make archers and mages in this game stand head and shoulders over archers and mages in other games. I'm a fan of medieval weaponry, such as swords, bows, spears, and the like, and the less it feels like pressing a button, and the closer it is to being a part of the action, the better. That, in my opinion, is the weakest part of ranged classes in many MMOs. As for worrying about the "feel of being an MMO," I'm not sure that's necessarily a good thing. People are getting sick of that feeling, and keep looking for the next big thing. If the system focuses on being fun, it'll hold a community. As an addendum, if an archer has a chance to miss, because they have to actually aim their shot, it will make up for having a powerful weapon, and get rid of the stereotype of the lazy ranged player doing a face roll.
At around 4:40 in the video, you mention "The camera should react" when being hit. I hope you're not referring to camera shake here. Camera shaking has made it impossible for my wife and I to play many recent games.
At the very least, can we assume there will be a toggle to disable shaking?
1. Those poor ducks. :(
2. No GCD. Yay!
3. I love tab targetting, will be interested to see what you do with it though.
4. There has to be an archer class. So many people love this play style, I'm afraid you will only run people off by even just suggesting it not be in the game. I notice games are starting to make the ranger a hyrbrid type class, maybe that is an option you can explore.
I'd love to see more updates about the lore and world of the game. We've got the general backstory, but I'd like to see the ideas you guys have for environments, rvr maps, cities, races, etc. I want to get a general feel for the world besides the few concept arts you have released.
Thoughts on Archers and Tab-Targeting: Mark, I'm in my 50's -- I love MMO's -- but I will not/can not keep up with fast twitchers in face-to-face combat. I look for the class that can contribute without sustaining 15 minutes of intense fast paced action. I loved my Animist -- spending time focusing on strategic placement of my assets -- or AOE mages that can ground target, or archers. I want to play a ranged role and am willing to be made of glass in exchange. I understand your comments about how "boring" that style of game play may be as you described it, but it is exactly what I'm looking for. I want to be the ranged DPS class that can contribute meaningfully without having the fast twitch skills of the tanks and stealthers. Find a role for me! (And it isn't modern healing which is far worse in terms of requiring instantly timed reactions.)
And on a related note, RANGE!!! The absolutely most disappointing part of GW2 play is to stand on a wall of a stunningly rendered castle with my ranged character and only be able to hit a target a few yards from the wall. DAoC had meaningful range.....please bring that back!
And while we are at it...make armors and weapon type variations have different "effects" - make armors like plate more protective against "slash" weapons and vulnerable to "crush" - allow different types of magic (physical vs elemental for example) to have different variances based on the type of armor - allow weapons like polearms to have longer hit range/radius, but hit slower - make dagger players have to get real close but increase their hit chance. Take the Rock-Paper-Scissors metaphor beyond the class arch-types and allow there to be some variance in armors and weapons beyond 'armor factor" and "DPS"! DARE the players to be creative and think beyond the FOTM!
@vince.. I don't know if you played daoc but that's where the issues stated coming into the game for the archer class (hunter/ranger/scout)when they started letting them stray too far from the "archer" template with albions scout being the main protagonist. The scouts were allowed shields and dome magic dd insta spells from memory and could even shield stun you which made them crazy hard to beat as anything other than a tank an even then a well played scout could take them down because they could stun with the shield, run off and kite leaving the other player dead without landing a single hit. It should never reach the point where the classes get so mixed its pointless having classes in the first point. I think there should be flexibility with maybe a 3tier ability tree like they use in rift allowing an "archer" class to choose to go more down a melee tree but his bow suffers greatly for it but no matter how hvy you invest into your melee tree your never going to out melee say a warrior or assassin type class. If you go down the melee tree you should still have to try soften the target up with your now much lower dmg bow before using your improved melee skills to finish off. Or maybe all realms archers get a pet tree and can go part pet part melee and send in the pet which can do decent dmg while you shoot with your weak bow and then finish him off once he closes on you with your improved melee. Armour needs to be kept fairly classic IMO as well, could you image an uber powerfull aoe fire Mage in plate armour lol
I think the very notion of "melee" and "ranged" classes are where people start to get things wrong. The beauty of DAOC is that each class was unique. Was a scout a ranged class per se, sure. But you could play a shield scout and really surprise unsuspecting Shadowblades and Nightshades.
Saying that an archer being good in melee would mean that there would be no reason to play melee classes is assume that their need to be "types" of classes. What if, instead, each class was unique and interesting in completely different ways? An archer's main form of DPS may be melee, but that doesn't mean that other classes couldn't have equal utility and effectiveness.
DAOC was filled with classes with different skills that provides many interesting and unique styles of gameplay. Where as other MMOs basically create the same 4 or 5 basic class "types", DAOC had unique classes like Bone Dancers, Animists, Vampiirs, Warlocks,etc, each of which created truly unique and previously undiscovered methods and style of gameplay. Was everything perfectly balanced? No, but who says they absolutely have to be, especially when the alternative is bland and boring sameness?
Thanks for all of the work and information thus far MJ and crew. Good to hear that there will be no more GCD to deal with. Also good to hear that there will at least be some form of tab targeting in the game. Now to just convince you guys to add /face commands too! As far as archers go, I really hope you can find a way to implement them effectively. Not only are they one of my favorite class types to play, but I think they are a crucial part to the balance of the system. They are the physical counterpart to the mage, and without them you're pretty much stuck with a mage type class if you want to play a ranged character. I would think you could deny the ability to cycle tab targets as an archer by just limiting the distance at which tab will acquire a target, no? Either way, i do hope you guys can find a solution and add them as a class choice.
I also really hope you add some form of true assassin with at least basic stealth abilities. They add so much to the dynamics of the game. They(as well as archers) force players to be aware of their surroundings, and add an air of suspense, never knowing where or when they will just appear out of nowhere. As long as they cant just pop up and one shot people, then disappear like they were never there, they are a good and welcome addition to any game.
Thanks again for the time and effort to keep us informed MJ and crew!
One last point - if you add "buffs" to the game that can be placed on other players - please put an effective range on them. Buffbots are a major downer. Thanks. :)
First: Thanks, GCD is the worst thing created for these kind of game. You do not solve lag problem in this way.
I think to feel great with an archer if I can hide (ambush) tab-target my enemy, Aim an arrow (If I can -> limited arrow) and Fire in a line-bar which move from miss - to hit (and critical if I'm good) and this line over a bar move fast/slower depends by my skill/location/my status/enemy status/enemy range/ecc... I think this is the realistic way to represent what a medival archer do in combat cause If I'm concentraded, if I have steady hand I hit in the right time over line-bar.
In order to have a successful Rock, Paper, Scissors class setup, I think Archers are a HUGE necessity. I don't think this game or any other games can really succeed without an archer class. It is too crucial to game mechanics. The way DAoC handled it was BRILLIANT, and I think you guys really shouldn't stray from the system of having a class like an Albion Scout, who can stealth, and snipe, but who can be easily countered by a nightshade who can't be seen by the scout, unless they are very close. This was a brilliant system that allowed for both classes to have stealth, but to have one class have a more powerful stealth.
First off, I love the daily updates - great way to form a community! I'm truly excited about this game and ready to help out in whatever means necessary. Now on the subject of Combat, I like what you are thinking in terms of fluidity and altering playstyles based on weapon types. In fact, I am hoping that the class system in CU is much, much less rigid than other contemporary MMOs on the market. Principle #4 talks about choices making a difference and a semi-sandbox experience, and allowing players to blur the lines by not restricting classes to certain armors and weapons. I hope this is emphasized even more in the combat design to not encourage min/maxing of abilities. Some of the other posters have been talking about the "Melee" character class versus a "Archer" character class...how about we create a system where a melee class can learn to use archery (or magic) and an archer class can learn to use magic (or melee). Give the classes some unique FOUNDATION abilities - but allow a lot of the other skills (combat and non-combat alike) to be learned or shared between classes. This would allow players to more accurately tune the playstyle that they prefer - create a true "endless" number of class combinations - and allow the community to evolve new and interesting strategies, rather than allow the game math/system to dictate FOTM classes. Obviously, the amount of skills would have to be controlled by skill points of some kind, but players could choose to be masters of a specific trade or jack-of-all-trades-master of none. Opening up the possibility for the fighter/mage, healer/archer, mage/healer, and so forth...
In other words, I hope that you are willing to carry some of the sandbox elements into combat, magic, healing, stealth, and similar skills - and allow us players to craft a character "class" that meets our personal vision.
Seriously i cant see any video anywhere... Someone care to link it or something?
I love archers, in most of the MMORPG's of the last decade, the first character I have played is the Rangerish class. I like the Idea of a more skill based targeting system for archers, however I approach it with a large ammount of caution, I can see a huge cluster of problems if it was geared toward a third person OTS crosshair, mainly being your playstyle turns into a mouselook feel than the traditional MMO feel. That being said, depending on the archer's abilities I can see it working. For example if you throw out AOE abilities for arhcers, focusing on strong attacks or DoT's, then it may work. However I personally love the "rain of arrows" and "salvo" type abilities.
My personal reccomendations are one of two things, a "Combo" system where while your ability is charging you must hit certain keys to preform it succedfully, as seen in Age of Conan is the first. Alternatively, a "sweet spot" where at a random point in the cast time, a click of your mouse or other key will do extra damage to the player you have targeted, or maybe add a CC affect instead.
Another option for archers would be to make them more of a trapper class, the bow doesn't do quite as much damage, but the archer's trademark traps are more effective, another thing you could implement here is an ambush bonus, so that the archer does more damage hitting an enemy out of combat, or doing so stuns/staggers the enemy. You could also make the Archer a more "mobile" class, scaling trees and keep walls, and moving faster than other characters.
As for the "Point Blank Archery" I think this should be eliminated, give the archer a weapon based on realm selection IE Vikings axe, Arthurians Dagger, that will allow a slight defense against melee classes, though keep it on the weaker side, more to use to CC the enemy and make a run for it.
I could go on about this all day, I think Archers/Rangers/Scouts would be a great addition to camelot unchained if they are implemented right, but I believe that if nessecary, they should be left out of the game at launch if they become too hot of an issue. I personally would be just as happy playing a rogue/assassin character.
It will be a HUGE letdown if there's no archer class in this game !!! My fondest memories are from running solo in stealth with my bearded dwarf hunter Balthus Forestwalker (Nazgul guild) and hiding in treeson hillsides for that one right target (cloth) to be running solo or at the back of a grp. The adrenaline would pump as I fired the big crit shot, will I do enough dmg to kill him in 1-2 shots before he can call for help and be healed or shield bubble up and launch a huge fireball at my ass or send his army of pets after me. Truthfully I'm not even sure I'd play without a stealth archer class. Tab target is also needed, try picking out a target with a cursor when that targets in the middle of another 100 ppl all setting off spell flashes and explosions going off. The ability to be able to go off and "stalk" your prey was what made daoc stealthers truly the best stealth classes in any mmo and none of this "30 second stealth then you reappear " if you've got stealth you stay in it until You choose to leave it either turn it off or enter combat, the only other person to spot you is other stealthers creating a war within a war, a stealth war if you will. Archer classes should be the grim reaper for a caster class but will do bee sting dmg to fully armoured warriors. No shields, no insta magic dd spells and unless you seriously sacrifice bow powers for melee they shouldn't be able to out dps a pure dps class. If you make a hunter pet class then make the pets powerfull but at the expense of lower bow ability and power and only auto melee or limited melee abilities. An archer class should be just that, an archer, maybe combine their melee with the bow so they can't even equip swords or spears or daggers, if they haven't shit you down or their pet hasn't eaten you before you reach them then the best they can do us swing a solid wooden bow at you. PLEASE include archers, PLEASE make them able to be permanent stealthed :(((
@Jonathan - WoW arenas, BGs, duels in general, they all are artifically limited by rules/numbers. Arena fights are predictable and therefore you need to min/max. to increase your odds. It is a fair fight because the options available are the same for all players. RvR on the other hand is chaos, you never know the odds e.g. a 1vs1 may turn into a 1vs3, or 3vs1. It is unpredictable and unfair. Arena & BGs have a natural limit and a winner can be determined. RvR is ongoing and therefore there is no scoreboard telling you that you lost or won.
Due to that both playstyles require a bit different personal skills.
If the archer is "very powerful" in melee, then why play a melee class. This is the classic blunder of DAOC, I don't know about WoW,I never played it.
If you give the archer the list of abilities you just did, and is powerful in melee, then you just eliminated every reason to play a melee class. You'd be a fool to play a melee, actually. Add the speed or stealth, and you really are a fool to play melee.
Make archers great at archery, weak in melee. Make melee great in melee, weak at a range. Anything else, well, is ridiculous.
My favorite class from DAoC was the Bonedancer. Now, pet classes as a whole are reviled by most gamers (they want to beat and be beat by a real player, not an AI) and quite a few programmers, I bet (coding the AI has got to be a challenge). Bonedancers were one-man armies. They took crazy micromanagement to play well. I would like each realm to have a support/pet class where their buffs could help thier pet if they weren't with a team. Doesn't have to be a Bonedancer per se...but if the Viking one worked a bit like a Bonedancer, well, I'm in like Flynn. :)
Uhm, where is the video?
Some of the wow-bashing I've read related to combat mechanics makes me giggle. E.g. "all you had to do was spam ability X to win". Twink BGs are not the same thing as rated 3v3 and 5v5 arenas fyi....
Archers could be a stealth class or a speed class. The notion of an archer sitting up on a hill watching the enemy movements is a very powerful one. However, I agree that the idea of over-powered archers is problematic. Of course, playing a class that is severely underpowered is no fun either. So what do you do?
What if archers were more about ranged utility than DPS. The class could still be an effective DPSer in melee, but when it comes to attacking from range, could they do something other than snipe to kill?
Suppression - Archer fires a volley of arrows into a group, the damage is minimal, possibly trivial, but having arrows rain down on you tends to make you raise your shield or otherwise cover yourself a bit. So the archer could have an AE snare ability. the goal being to help control the enemy.
Fire Field - Another form of battlefield control, the archer fires a flaming arrow that explodes leaving a field of burning pitch/oil on the ground. It takes a few seconds for the fire to spread and the field is easily avoided. However, if the enemy chooses to run through the field anyways, they will take some significant damage.
Arrow in the Knee - Single Target Root. The idea is that the archer can root someone at range and then have him or his cohorts close in to kill him. A person alone could fall victim to this (of course, it just means they'd be forced to turn and fight), but a group would only fall prey if they weren't paying attention or decided to the rooted friend behind.
I'd say that all archer based skills require ground-based targeting and no tabbing. (tabbing seems fine in melee)
I am loving this combat update, can't wait to see part two.
I am really excited about the prospect of Archers and such not being Tab target.
If anyone here has played Mount and Blade, they have an EXCELLENT archery system (mounted or on foot either) that makes playing an archer very fun. It takes skill to hit long-distance targets (account for arrow drop/movement speed of your target) but this also allows archers to also b epowerful, because of the skill involved the damage (especially a headshot) can be high, without it feeling too "op."
As well there are always counters to them (shields, mounted knight's, etc).
Do hope things are explored and it turns out well.
@MJ, archers are fine. They should kill in a couple hits. The issue was when Archers became Blademasters, Berkers and Mercs. They killed at range, and if you closed, the duel weild skill almost gaurteed they they diced you up in close combat. Then you all went and added a shield skill to scouts.
They shot you, you closed, they switched to shield, stunned you for 7 seconds, then finished you off in point blank range.
The other issue is they stealth skill. It was also an issue in WAR with Witch Hunters and Witch Elves.
Make archery damage hellish, just like it is supposed to be. Lost the shield on archers, lose the ridiculous combat they did, and make sure there is no stealth to run away after attacking a full group of 8.
If there is stealth, make sure the reuse timer is like 5 minutes, or something else that keeps them honest. Keep the Crauchon Stealth Zerg in DAOC, leave them out of this game.
TL;DR Its not archers damage thatst he issue, its stealth comboned with shield stun and melee godliness in ADDITION to stealth that is the issue.
Here my idea for an archer class. You have load the arrow, after you used it. Because when i think of archer/stealth or general archer you making that one shot kill. To bring down important person or cause them start looking as shadows etc. For the targeting part make like you have point click the person, or slow down the time for them use the powerful bow. What i saw my hunter in DAOC was a scout and the same time to a scout that could die vary fast. If anyone else has more ideas on my feed back that would be great to
me on combat: No such thing as stealth/magic, and no such thing as, take a hammer blow to the back of the head and it only did 20% damage, I want realism, (99% block/parry, 1 (actual) hit, 1 kill) or even take an axe to the arm, that arm falls off, hope you can swing your hammer left handed! take hammer blow to the right knee, ya, you can swing your sword, but gook luck catching me if I'm > 1 meter away... ok, ya, I know I'm probably the only person in the world that would pay for that game, but just saying. Oh, and on archers, ya manual aim (with no scopes) accuracy should go down by the square of the distance
can you tell I play a Troll Warrior??
@Michael Towson - Agreed. Arrows are part of it.
@Johan T. Raven - Good point i forgot: the ability to hold the arrow knocked, taking your time, switching targets before you actually shot.
@Matt Hoban - Hello Markran! Good to see you after a decade. Really long time no see.:) And yes, Rashka the desert scout in person.
Archers, tab targeting, stealth, it's all in the same package... There is a need for a combined solution.
-Would it be that you can't be tab-targeted even if "slightly" visible in stealth?
-Archers being interruptable while bending their bow? Then the tab/shoot tab/shoot problem is no more (or so I believe)
-Boosting the protection bonus from a shield if facing the archer?
Just throwing ideas...
I think your best chance to get a lot of interest is to get some front page stories on the big gaming websites like MMORPG.com and what not. Need to be able to get the attention of the masses and once you hit that critical mass, the word will spread itself.
Also, about tab targetting..I would like to see the tab target system have limited range, so you have to click on targets say oh 75% of your spell range...