by City State Entertainment
The best implementation of archery I've seen so far was in Mount&Blade. Reticle based, very realistic, requires a lot of skill but extremely satisfying when you manage to land an almost impossible headshot while riding a horse at full speed.
Come on MJ. Don't hate on archers again. =P
The method I prefer is for tab targeting to cycle through available targets as with many other games.
This would just get you a visible indicator of your target, and maybe their direction and speed as a vector arrow, rather than guiding all of your shots to them automatically.
Using this information you can use a reticle/template to try and hit the enemy with your powerful abilities.
The target is a guide rather than a hard lock.
Your friendly based or weaker attacks, or even long cooldown specials, could still be auto aimed but the rest would need more skill to land.
That would only be fair if it applied to all classes though, not just singling out archers because they may have the potential to be OP if not balanced properly.
I am glad you are looking at a hybrid for targeting. Hard-lock targeting for healing would especially be nice, due to the chaotic nature of battles, especially the scale you plan to bring. Also glad no GCD.
For the crosshair targeting haters... ever try D&D Neverwinter beta? Tera? There are more, but I assure you that trying to free the game of tab-targeting when possible is a good thing and will only help the games combat speed and thus increase the chaos, skill involved and fun...all good things for long life of a game.
I hate fussing with targeting, especially in melee...he is RIGHT THERE, why can't I just attack? Know what I mean?
never played DAOC, but when i heard about this game and the rvr and everything i knew i had to back it. telling me that there will be skill shots aside from tab targeting, just reinsures me that i know i made a great choice
I really think that some of you need to try reticle target arching in an actual MMO before you completely dismiss it. I say let skill dictate the outcome of a battle, not computerized calculations.
You could be running around in third person with your melee weapon(s) whichever you choose and then the view switches to first person with a reticle when you switch to your bow. It is much more of a rush arching with reticle in first person as it takes much more of your own ACTUAL skill and less of the computer guiding your arrow directly at your target. Every time I think about tab target and clicking to win with any type of ranged I think about aim-bots and that leaves a bad taste.
Skill based please
Ty no global CD.... i hate GC and always have
Too much crying about how archers are blah blah overpowered blah blah nerf them plz. Get over it. DAoC archers had there time. Let it go.
Too much crying why players want easy playing without thought or really aiming. I would love to see a game that parallels with Big Game Hunter, too, but this ain't it and I'm fine with it.
Tabbing, kill it imho. You want juicy archers then dang learn to aim your flipping bow. A zoom style aiming. You ever draw a real bow? You have to actually aim down the shaft, compensate for distant, etc. Nothing simple and surely not fast until you get really good at it. That takes skill. Not this silly tab and fire crap we see nowadays to appease the cash carrying kiddies. Plenty will cry about it, let 'em. Stick to the guns, mates, and by all that's holy, don't water it down for the kids.
I'm not too crazy about the thought of my camera "reacting" to being hit - I may be wrong but I think this niche market is looking for a game that touches on older styles of MMO action, before they became an arcade
No Archer based class would definitely have me regretting backing the project. Hunter was my Main in DAoC and stealth based classes or physical ranged classes have always been what I play in MMORPG's since the start. Reticle based aiming isn't the way to go unless you do like Neverwinter and *EVERYONE* is using that system.
I never played an archer in any MMO, but I'll chime in since I did in Skyrim.
But first I must say that NS is the way to kill any archer, for anyone complaining about it.
Anywho, in Skyrim, you had the ability to slow down the frames to target your bow. I think that would be EXCELLENT in an MMO. For a while, I was trying to think about how that'd even be possible...well, the server obviously knows where the guy you're shooting at WAS two seconds ago, so if your game client slows the person down, the archer has the ability to hit someone even when they're out of range. As long as they're still in range on your client while in slow motion, then regardless of how far away you get with that Skald speed, you still get hit. Of course, once out of range in the slow-motion client view, good luck ever catching up, as they're long gone by then.
@Simon Bartley (on the FPS/recticle targeting): In Darkfall they succesfully use reticle targeting if not mistaken. If MJ/CSE incorporates a reticle targeting or hybrid with tab into their game design I am sure they will consider impact on performance for large scale RvR battles. Also games as PS2 incorporates it (yes it is a shooter), where large scale battles do occur... saying it is impacted by lag and thus not a valid targeting system to explore for CU seems a bit shortsighted. Then IF it would be an issue, imagine the scale of a battle... you'd just shoot into a mass of bodies and be sure of it you'd a body part.
As such for Archer I feel some form of skill requirement should be incorporated. Recticle targetting or a combination of tab targetting (locking) and recticle targetting may be quite fun. I'd hate an tab+auto hit mechanic just because of the lag card.
On a side note I do hope they put in /stick and /face type of commands for easier group coordination and roaming.
with short duration stealth, be kinda like assassin's creed or something, I dunno, I'm interested to see where MJ goes with it, he mentioned the stealth system he wanted to test was bsc.
I had some stealthers in DAoC, so I'm no stranger to it.
I'd rather them do something different, someone in the main comments suggested / mentioned disguises, that could be pretty cool and unique. I don't know just traveling around for hours on end invisible is just strange.
Oh and the stealth in WAR wasn't all that great from my memory of the game, you spend more time micro managing your stealth timer than fighting but with No Global cool downs its going to be interesting to see what they plan on doing with any stealth type abilities
@jason.. Daoc stealth wasn't "instant" it had a combat timer on it. As for it being lame I think that's a little but overboard, it's no coincidence that pretty much every stealth class since daoc has sucked. Limited stealth may as well be no stealth in a game as huge as daoc or CU looks to be. How are you supposed to go out solo and scout enemy numbers or scale the castle walls to see what's in store for your warband once they breach the keep door? Short "bursts" of stealth wil be pointless in this style of game, manageable for the small instance style pvp of wow and such like like where you run with the rest then stealth up on the final charge but stealthers in daoc had a much different role to play. Stealthers often went off solo or in small grps of other stealthers to watch an follow the enemy, feeding back numbers and class types to the main force, then before the big strike they would single out the healers and casters and strike from the shadows like deaths own hand (I kinda like the sound of that lol). If that's taken away your left with a class that is forced to run with the group like a lemming because they're too weak solo and can be seen by non stealth and can't go to ground so become cannon fodder. Like I said, ill reserve judgement until the full details come out but from the hints Mark has dropped it's looking like at best they're looking at "camouflage " if the light of the moon shines the right way and if you can jump in a bush and pull a branch over your head an hope your not seen. I adored stealth as it was and had the most amazing times hunting out in the frontiers on my own or at times with 2 close stealther buddies in a "wolf pack" kinda thing (or to our victims a "Gank Squad" lol ) I'm interested to see this never before take on stealth Mark mentions but I get the personal opinion that its just going to be a watered down stealther with maybe a "predator" type stealth such as the one used in the game "crysis" where your sorta stealthed but if ppl look straight at you you can clearly see the hazy shimmer of your cloak
@Simon IMHO games where you can instantly stealth and stay invisible to the world indefinitely are broken and frankly stupid. Stealth is cool and all, I've played stealthers in every MMO I've played, and the list is long, but being invisible all the time is kinda lame.
I'm sure there are plenty of better, new, fun, and innovative ways they can do stealth / assassin and archer / scout classes. I preferred stealth being more limited like it was in Warhammer Online IMHO.
Hmmm just watched part 2 an honestly, I'm concerned. I am a huuuuge stealth fan, every single mmo I've played that has stealth in 1 form or another I would always make my 1st character a stealther. From what I'm hearing from mark so far has me a little worried that "stealth" classes are going to be made much easier to spot so as to appease the non stealth players :( the on/off stealth button Mark seems to hate so passionately wasn't quite as easy as he's made it out to be, for one thing you had to be out of combat for I think 5-10 seconds which doesn't sound like a lot but when your as easy to kill as archers were (most of them anyway lol) then being able to pop out, hammer your target and run for the hills hoping nobody gets in range of you to hit you and reset your stealth combat timer then 5-10sec felt like a lifetime. What's the point in having assassin classes that can if unlucky be seen and squashed like a bug before getting anywhere near their target (healers). If your going to make it that non stealth have a chance to see u then just don't bother putting stealth in at all because if they can be seen you will have to make them powerful enough out of stealth to protect themselves which in the case of archers will unbalance the class as they will be good with bow and cc OR if not then they will be just too weak to perform either role properly. I will wait and see how the stealth class evolves but if watered down to appease the non stealth players I doubt ill bother playing much past the free month my pledge has earned me, but early for doom an gloom but I love my stealth (does it show?) lol
First, I am really happy that Mark said what he did about Viking colors. To actually give a reason as to why they chose the look that they did for that race goes a long way with me. In a lot of games, unexplained decisions are made all the time, some of which have profound(ly negative) effects on the game. So thank you for providing your reasoning there.
Second, I am also extremely happy that you share a gameplay vision similar to mine. Fluidity of gameplay is an absolute necessity, and is, in my opinion, a huge part of what made WoW so great. It is a shame that so many games after it failed to make a system that feels as good. I have high hopes here!
Third, I am a fan of tab-targeting, myself. I think, if done properly, a system that integrates the action-style targeting can be good, but I have yet to find one that really grips me. For me, I have no qualms with tab-targeting. I hope it can be a viable option for all classes to utilize.
I COMPLETELY agree with @Maric. Archery (pre it being ruined and turned into a glorified caster class) was very immersive and made you actually feel like a real archer. Yes you were powerful and could assassinate people from range, but if your cover was blown you were sure to be killed - which again added another element to the immersion.
In addition the original sounds that DAoC archers had were great, knocking that arrow...selecting a target and then letting loose before knocking a second gave the player a great feeling and I'd be sad if that was lost with CU.
On the flip side to Archers being overpowered, you just make them very squishy like they were in DAoC and problem solved - as it worked PERFECTLY there, until it was ruined and the Archer population dropped like a rock.
Thanks for the video.
I loved Archery in DAoC so much. IMO DAoC is the only MMO to nail the feeling of longbow combat. I really hope to see the same in CU.
There are too many issues with lag/rubber-banding/floaty combat using reticle targetting. Take Planetside, TERA and Neverwinter for example.
One of the best things in DAoC was the feel you get from landing that Annihilation, the sound, and the solidity of the blow. Positional styles were also a huge plus in DAoC.
Leave the reticle to FPS, and focus on "smart" combat in Camelot Unchained.
Make archers use ground targetting, that would be a lot of fun actually, trying to predict where an enemy is going. Or just unloading into a crowd.
I think one thing people are worried about with reticle targetting is the thought that it makes you use first person point of view, but really it's just using some manner of manual targetting with a dot, crosshair, or other reference point to aim with. Consider Taleworld's game "Mount and Blade." You could use either first or third person, but I tended to use third person, because the camera bob of first person games is always so exaggerated that it's distracting (perhaps even nauseating), and having done some MMA, I know that even if your head might really move like that, it doesn't feel like it moves like that (also an argument against super shaky cameras to the point of distraction). Also, third person still keeps you aware of your surroundings. The words "hybrid system" are being used a lot, and that could be the way it will go. The idea of having a targetting arrow that shows your shot's path, wherever you point your mouse sounds interesting, since it removes the absolute tab targetting, and still leaves a fairly intuitive and reasonable feeling manual aim that does not require the precision/physics of height adjustment. If not a line painted on the ground, a target AoE (of small scale) on the ground, and whoever is closest (one person) to the center of it takes the damage, since 1) archers with AoE are a bit silly, and 2) using the AoE circle to target would allow you to shoot over people's heads, which archers would do all the time. There have been a lot of good comments on both sides of the argument, but I think the best suggestion so far has been from Zoltán Magyar, and that's why I've supported a 2D manual targetting system in this post. The skillshots idea he brings up is an interesting one, and if I understand it correctly, Age of Conan does something similar with the target directions added in combos.
To add to this, one thing I would support greatly is rather than an archer having 20 different shots loaded up on their quick bar, is give them one kind of shot. The damage type would be based on a selection of arrows (arrows should also be limited to what can be carried), and use this 'skill shots' system to help determine where the shot might hit the enemy, such as a crippling leg shot, or an accuracy/strength reducing arm shot, or a high damage/bleeding body shot. I liked the use of the word 'authentic' earlier in the comments, and to make archers authentic, they should have limited ammunition, but also decent melee ability, since people are not just one trick horses, and can do multiple things well. This is actually why I would be mostly in favour of the DPS classes being able to do archery with skill branches that let them focus on it, or whatever weapon they prefer (sort of like a D&D fighter could take specilizations with a greatsword, bow, and spear, back in the 3.0-3.5 days). If the warriors can decide what kind of warrior they will be, but all share a common branching path, it gives a lot of flavour to the DPS class, and if everyone can pick up a bow, and be somewhat useful in a siege, it would be helpful.
On a final note about archers, something to consider would be the rate of fire that an archer can really attain. If an MMO would really take that into consideration, archers would not be considered as overpowered as they often are. A longbowman can shoot maybe 15-20 shots per minute if stationary, and working as quickly as they can (accuracy not factored in), a crossbowman possibly 8-10 (if using a hand-drawn, low powered crossbow, and also stationary). Most MMOs I have seen allow for a rate of one arrow/second, and sometimes more with crazy rapid fire elements, or single archers doing volleys of hundreds of arrows at once. The more authentic archers (and other combatants) are, and the less it feels like people are doing nothing but spam one button, the better.
- Give archers limited ammo, but decent melee skills
- Use a ground AoE targetting method that hits the closest target to the center
- Use one button to shoot, adjust effects/hit location of arrow with combo/skill shot system
- Authentic rate of fire, and no AoE effects
OH, btw i like you're removing global cool down :)
I really liked the feel of the archer classes in DAoC, where you had to pull back your bow making it ready to shoot and then releasing and beeing able to prepare another shoot as follow up. Never had the same feeling of beeing an archer with any other MMO class.
Don't really care if its Tab target or not, but i would love to see the archer class again in Camelot (Regardless of how you wanna make it).
@Simon Bartley - The most feared archer class in daoc was the ranger. When classic servers were introduced our server formed a guild there with players from all three realms. Both Mids and Hibs agreed that scouts were just free RPs with the exception of very few players.
Worst archer class so far i played was SW in WAR. Either i was first to die because i was an easy target, or last to die because i was irrelevant for the fight and completely ignored.
Anyway, hope the 2nd part will be up soon. :)
You can't ignore archer class or ranged physical damage classes to be honest. Someone somewhere is always gonna find that way to feel OP but it doesn't mean anything I used to kill rangers etc in daoc all the time with a mage class , sometimes I would get owned it just depends on whos in control. I would be greatly disappointed even tho I probably won't play one right away if archers didn't make it into the game.
I would love to have the ability to use the console as much as in DAoC. Beeing able to build makros that easy and complexe at once is one reason why i every now and then start playing it again.
Archer is a necessity for me to be fully interested is this, and for old guildies as well. Be it with or without tab targeting, I think having archers is very important. Thx!
I love that you mention GW2 here. The fluid combat in GW2 just feels right. I LOVE being able to dodge and move as a caster. Did you mentioned GW2 because you intend to implement a similar dodge/cast on the fly system?
Also I will add, please no reticle targeting. I hated it when SWG released that in the NGE and couldn't stand for it again. Worst... system... ever...
@Simon - LOL, I hear you on the Scouts. I really wasn't part of the "stealth wars" back in DAOC's prime, as my primary toons were Shaman, Skald, and Healer. But I guess that is somewhat my point (nieve or not), that class/skill combinations should not be about Class X against Class Y (hunters vs scout)...rather Skill X against Skill Y against Skill Z - rock-paper-scissors again. In any event, its great to hear differing opinions. I hope it only makes the game a better game in the long run. :)
I agree with a previous post as well on the reticle shooting, keep that for call of duty pls there's no place for it here. The sheer scale of the battles will mean some form of lag at times (unless we're getting uber dedicated servers lol ?) Forcing range classes to have to go first person would be a huge disadvantage compared to say a warrior who can just click his target, stay in melee range and spam whatever attack buttons he wants to hit you. Lag will dictate how your arrows behave and with some if the battles in daoc being 200+ ppl I have no faith that the target I'm now leading will still be there when my arrow gets there. Also being forced into FPS mode will greatly reduce your peripheral vision as you go into a scope type view, the only way I could see it work is if you use the mouse cursor as your range finder and have to fire with the cursor higher than the target the further away they are to compensate for the drop rate. I don't know, I think they had it almost bang on with the daoc archer classes, just balance out the cc with them so its either awesome with a bow/weak in cc or weak bow/awesome cc or a hybrid choice with pets but give a much bigger range of pets to tame/choose (poison pets,fast pets,slow mega powerful pets,stealth pets that don't do much damage but cause chaos suddenly appearing and chewing on the groups healer)
@Taldren - Let's say an archery spec line. It could be available for both dps and hybrid class. That way there would be two possible but comepletely different styles to play an archer.
@vince, Jennifer.. Lol I guess you guys both played as scouts then if you don't think they weren't op with that shield. Running as a Midgard hunter I didn't even bother trying to do anything the second a scout popped up an shield stunned me because I knew exactly what was coming. I knew I couldn't compete as a hunter 1v1 with a scout in melee and even with their melee abilities being so good they were still vicious archers as well either equalling my bow dmg from range or even bettering it (and yes I was well equipped with full arty bow and armour). Being so good in cc AND ranged combat made the alb scouts the most feared archer class in daoc, even my shadow blade had a hard time with them if he missed his opening perforate artery because they would just shield stun,run, stealth then shoot me down in 2-3 hits before I could even move, dirty Albs lol ;)? I think each realms archer class(if made) should have a few "trees" to lvl up in so that ppl can go pure bow, mostly melee or a pet tree. The archer class in daoc was near as dammit as good as its been in any mmo, I loved the buzz of stalking prey on my own, hoping the target stays in range as I draw my big crit shot, grinning from ear to ear when I see the target crumple to the ground in one shot but then quickly realise his mates are chasing me so I turn, hit speed boost while jamming the stealth button shouting "COME ON" because I've not been out of combat long enough for stealth to kick back in. I would drop into stealth and laugh at the stupid players looking for me then BOOM I'm dead lol a damned stealther found me rofl.
Seems this is a passionate area for a lot of people which is good as it is important.
I personally think that the hybrid system Mark describes will fill most if not all concerns here. It didn't seem like he was saying all combat will be reticle targeting, nor will it all be tab targeting as he said that there is a place for tabbing.
Reticle for projectiles such as archery, spells, spears, and throwing axes or daggers ect. I think is a necessity. BUT, for example spells do not need to be completely reticle. Buffs or any type of healing (if implemented) could be tab. If they were looking to make some extremely competitive combat then those things could also be reticle, but in situations of 100v100 or whatever it may turn out to be, that may not be the best.
I have partaken in large reticle targeting battles in games like Mortal (50v50 or so) and a Darkfall alliance battle that was laggy as it wasn't fully optimized to handle 500v500, might have been more. In either case, the battles were a blast because lag or not, skill still came into play.
There should be a place for tab targeting but to make it entirely tab targeting is like throwing in an auto-target easy-mode cheat.
Hopefully Mark and the rest of the team hold fast to their growing list of foundational principles.
Oh yeah, if you can, please minimize screen shake in combat. It's cool when used sparsely but too much I find annoying. (Or have an option to turn it down/off in preferences)
Love the idea of hybrid tab targeting and aiming system.
Also my favorite weapon in an rpg is a bow, so my preference is a dedicated archer class. I like the the battle Mage (mid to close range caster) and long range only archer mix to make the classes different from the get go. Not sure how to make the archer NOT OP yet though...
Thank you for the update Mark , I am very excited to see the amount of consideration being put into the combat system .I agree that some tab targeting can be undesireable in certain situations as you mentioned. Maybe if there were some type of range implementation put in limit when tab targeting would be available? Seeing as there will not be any GCD's it seems like a viable way to include some other classes.
The more I think about it, the more I don't believe the game needs an archer specific class. You could just have lines in thief / warrior classes for bow use. There is always so much overlap with archery classes over other classes with the only unique aspect being bows that I can't see the justification. You have to just provide hard choices ... Example: A warrior has to choose between heavy armor or a pet ... if they take the pet then what exactly is the difference between a Warrior in medium armor with a pet and a ranger of other games? None.
@Jennifer, I agree 100% with having an archer class or ability. And I hope that it is mechanically different than casters to give it a different feel. I'm sure they will be in the game - the overwhelming majority of posts are in favor of the class. :)
@Patrick - As you indicated, there are many opinions on these things, and I'm on the opposite end of the sprectrum than you are. The five to ten abilities active in GW2 really hampered my enjoyment of the game. That, and having access to the majority of them early on, made leveling seem "pointless" to me. However, I can certainly understand an attraction for simplicity. I just lean way over to the other side of that debate. :)
Hi Mark. What about Aoe can hit only 5 (or little more) target like in so many (bad) game? :o
fwiw, I have just read all these comments (3 pages) and didn't really see anyone mention the power of the Archer in a siege. I understand most people roamed with teams of 8 to get the leet RR points but... the game was about taking castles and territory disputes. You spend just as much time taking and/or defending a keep. This game will be no different.
Archers are absoltely *vital* to such gameplay and despite all the fear/worry/debate over whether or not they will be OP, have shields, use melee, what have you - we *need* archers to man our walls. Not just casters.
Try not to listen quite so much to the niche RvR goers. I know, I know, they're the loudest and ardent fans but the great ginormous masses of people that play.... want to play fantasy/medieval combat.
We *used* Scouts to... Scout! Imagine that! We sent them out with their stealth to give us troop movements and locations of the enemy. I would participate in Keep takes every single day for the better of four years in DAOC (and about a year in Warhammer, but that... felt.. different - and that's another post) and Scouts weren't just out there to be able, solitary, doing their own thing.
They were a useful and needed resource for massive combat. Remember that, too :)
@Rashka - I agree 100%. Scouts being able to spec shield in DAOC was not imbalancing at all - they still had their classes that they struggled with. Once again - rock-paper-scissors. My point continues to be that I hope that they EXPAND on that idea rather than contract into cookie-cutter classes.
I really don't like reticle targetting for MMOs and there does not have to be balance issues with tab targetting for range classes. It depends on how easy it is for the ranged class to just sit and fire away. I'm very curious about how interrupting will work in this game and if there will be stealth (i really hope not)
As for global cool downs I've always been on the fence. I like them for other players when I'm being attacked but hated the heck out of them when I was attacking. (laughs) I like having none. :)
I've never been a fan of archers, just not my choice to play in mmo's. I do think there should be some archer type in CU, as others have said - how can you have a castle seige without them?
I know it's kind of earlier in development to talk about spells and abilities. Not sure if there is thought to the amount of spells/attacks, or what ever folks want to call them, that each class will have. For me I like GW2's line up, just a few spells. I don't need 5 tool bars up with 24 different spells. I learn to use the 5 I have and effectively. Just some thoughts for CU. I know many will disagree with me, as folks like having to sort thru tons of spells/attacks.
Poll about the tab
@Treatise: The main thing with global cooldowns I see is easier to explain if you look at why not to have a global cooldown. In short, it gives you more freedom over your character in what you want them to be able to do.
Take DAoC's system for example, the time between attacks was determined through many different areas, let us say a melee character, his/her time between attacks was determined through the speed of the weapon, the quickness stat, (and also any haste/celerity buffs).
This resulted in a bit more consideration towards your character, in what weapon you used, how high you wanted your quickness at, all your decisions mattered, you could choose to hit fast and maybe not quite as hard, or very hard but also very slow. So as you can imagine with CU, where your choices in your race, weapon choice (weight of weapon perhaps) etc all are said to be going to have an impact, can't imagine someone with low strength swinging a large axe all too fast to be honest! Especially not at a set global cooldown time. Perhaps as your character becomes stronger he'll be able to hit faster as it's easier to swing! Who knows at this time, heh. But from all that i've heard so far, a non-global cooldown makes a whole lot more sense for CU.
That isn't to say other games are wrong in their decisions to use a global cd. They do work well too in certain games, but it's balanced more around internal cooldowns for certain abilities so rather than looking more closely at how to develop your character in terms of weapon choices etc, it's more to do with developing your "rotation" so both systems have their pro's and cons and both can work effectively. It will vary between games in terms of what approach they take with itemizations.
Hopefully that helps your question anyway!