by City State Entertainment
Just thinking about age.
What about using "age" as a progress meter in character models? So, you have characters that simply grow older as they progress? The older, the more fearsome leader they have become?
@CSE Hmmm, something is wrong with her face... I feel like I'm watching a WoW Blood Elf without the giant ears. Don't really like it.
Her armor is really cool even if I don't really like the giant jaw (I can't even figure out if it's her belt or not).
Her weapon looks handcrafted and this is a good point. On the other hand, the spikes on her shield are really "too much", it would be even better without them I think, try it.
About the animation, she's moving her hips a bit too much. Or maybe I feel like this because of the rotation of the model.
Keep up the good work !
Christoph Bolliger just said it right and I just QFT him:
...like many other pepole already said, the style does not really fit for me. I hoped have a more mature feeling and a more puristic style.
What i miss here is to see the war that is going on. I want dirty, ugly, sweaty (juk!) vikings. There only decoration is a big beard (men only ofc. ;) ) and a huge hammer... maybe some scars.
Have to courage to make the models ugly! I demand ugly PCs! Fat ones, old ones and scruffy ones.
When i "zoom out" from the battle, i want to see that it is a war, not a show off on the catwalk.
So my personal summary is: Make chars uglier, less decoration, less cartoon/mass orientation and over all more dark and mature.
MAKE VIKINGS JUST DIRTY, they are rough, fatt, long hair and ugly... a simply bear fur as cloak and you guys cant do anything wrong.
So, it must be.
Except one thing: let the MMO Standard 120/50/100-girlies in the game. I want to be big,fat, hairy, ugly
viking who plunder, pillage and kidnap the women. And I want pretty girls to kidnap, they can keep the ugly ones.
As an old Midgard Player i gonna play Vikings for sure but in my opinion you still have to work on your style.
Please turn down the Comic Style a little bit and let it look more realistic. Means more "corners" and not so round and floating.
You are on a good way.
just watch your CU Trailer- and stick to Sigur the Dragonslayer.. you just need a 2h Bastard Sword and/or a HUGE round shield- BÄMM, thats a Viking!! Less is more.
don't get all the complaints. No midgard players ever ran around without a top on in the frontiers ever. Yet were still unmistakeably "Viking". Topless doesn't work for armour sets.
"realistic" means higher quality gfx which means less performance. This style is perfect for what Unchained is aiming for. I'm very excited so far.
A fresh new take on same old tired style. Very promising start, have been very impressed with both races so far and am looking forward to Arthurian. On a side note love the hairstyle too, pretty cool.
And as a half Arthurian half Viking irl (i'm half English half Swedish)
Vikings were never fat! lol
Nothing spoils my immersion in a game more than seeing characters running around massively fat and covered in armour. It looks ridiculous and would never happen in real life. Have plenty of customisations for sure, more the better. But not a weight bar slider or height slider. When you see a human or troll, you want to know that's a human or troll.
maybe "fat" was the wrong word... more "masculine"... like a huge rock :)
Like many people before me have said, please tone down the fantasy of the viking armors. Less feathers and colors, more fur and grittiness. Leave the fancy colors and high fashion to the TDDs :p.
yes i would recognize them as vikings, because I am familliar with fantasy and I know that CU is a fantasy game, not realistic. There were dragons and their magic that warped and changed the reality, CU is staged in this changed, magicial world.
Like many others I love the concept art for the vikings. Great scavenging idea. And there will be lots of fur. The setting is postapocalytic and fantasy, so the mix is right for me.
Atm vikings would be my realm of choice.
Keep up the great job and keep the updates coming. I'm curious about the arthurians...
They look good, but is it just me or do they looks too pretty? Where's the grit and grime?
The sketch of the thick beared viking with runes around his neck, that's what I imagine my beloved ancestors would look like in this game.
I'd actually like it if the females were a bit more stout as well, and less elvish.
I think both Skyrim and GW2 did a great job on their Nords, they are very much the type of Vikings I like to see in games.
I understand if you want to put your own touch on them, but if you want us nordic folks to get that feeling of pride for our home in the game like we got in DaoC, don't stray too far from the rawness.
People asking for realism, you need to understand that this game is produced with VERY limited budget for an MMO - even if we get twice the minimum 5m funding required, it would be a small budget. Therefore there needs to be certain design decisions to optimize, compromise, cut corners, or whatever you wanna call it.
Realism is HARD and expensive. Creating and animating humanoids to a realistic degree is demanding since we spend all our lives studying them. I've looked at several MMOs which went for the "realistic" route, which all had orders of magnitude more money thrown at them than CU - and they ALL look amateurish. Suspension of disbelief is broken forever with the angular features MMO polygon counts require and simple, awkward animations.
Blizzard (yes, I went there) got it right with their art direction in WoW and D3. We are much more lenient on stylized characters and animation. You NEVER question the realism of a Gnome Warlock or Male Monk. They look great. Not to everyone's taste, but that's why we're on Kickstarter and not looking to publish via EA/Activision!
To re-iterate: I don't want yet another monochromatic world for "adults" actually meant to appeal to emo teens. I'm not saying CU needs a cutesy cartoony look - quite the contrary -, but I hope we don't end up with yet another "gritty" world with wooden animations and cheap caricatures of humans. Too many of those around.
Slaughty8 : Really ? I don't think so..from what did you recognize that? maybe an halberd and round shield.
we all are familiar with fantasy game and ok this is a post apocalyptic staged game...but this is not a Viking style imho.
in game art we can see also a trident...a viking with a trident, really ??
As I wrote before, I am very curious to see how many people would like to follow a more classical path and how many not. They should seriously do a poll.
@Treatise : No one is asking for more realism like more details, but simply to follow the features that should have the character, should be a viking, well, dress her like a viking.
@Slaughty8 DAoC was a magic infused fantasy world as well. It drew inspiration both from real lore and from fantasy. It was a "historical fantasy."
Anyhow, I don't think anyone is advocating a photo-realistic level of detail or anything like.
It can and should remain stylized. Just change the style so that it stays truer to the lore and mood of the setting, that is all.
“Game must be relaxing, if you want reality, stay with reality, dont play games. “
Where in reality can you be a marauding viking? Only in games...
Wasn't quite 100% on the TDD but this one I really like (and I used to play mid). I think I see where you're going with these warped DAoC realms. Don't like the WoW style, somewhat indifferent on d3; these look fine to me. Much more important is what the environment will provide for atmosphere as background for these models. Looking forward to an Arthurian!
Dear City State Entertainment Guys/Gals,
I am disappointed by current artworks, as they do not project my expectations of a dark and grimy world, but seems more to copy the popular comic style games like World Of Warcraft, Torchlight, Dota, League of Legends.
I will not yet pull of my pledge, but if development further steps in this direction I will seriously reconsider my support. I do not expect a highly realistic game-style, but don't drift too much into the comic style.
I would love to see Paul Barnett in your team! The Viking looks really nice! But i would do it a bit like in warhammer, that the characters getting bigger armors at the time. So make the shoulders bigger :D
Albion FTW :D
I agree, the style should stay true to the setting. All we know about that atm is, that its postapokalyptic & fantasy & ... It's different from DAoC. But change can be good imho.
So, MJ & Co. let's talk also a bit about the setting in upcoming updates...
Again, you guys rock!
Really nice to see you showing of more and more of your game.
But imho from the concept art of the men, they look more like boys with soft skin and some anime type hair and bright color. Not appealing at all to me.
I would like to see some more dark, raw, hard, cold, bitter, angry stuff with scars and blood.
I have to say your model looked good and the physics when walking and the hair moved was really good but the art I'm seeing of the male models reminds me more of an asian type game which saddens me a bit.
Wait and see i guess!
enough of the dark gritty worlds and warhammer realism cries... that game was beyond awful. and that's coming from a daoc release day veteran who thought his prayers had been answered by war.
I have no doubt this game will have areas of grit, the world has been shattered, But also magic has poured into the realm, lets not forget that. And also one of the great things about DAoC was how each realm felt true to it's own. I would've hated playing Albion if it was all dark and gritty. Me and my pals used to love the Camelot image and feel of Camelot Hills, and the Nordic wilderness of midgard etc...
As for the gfx, these are earliest concepts and will evolve. But already they are showing how each faction has it's own theme and feel, but is NOT daoc2, which mark stated from the get go. I love the feel and theme so far, and completely understand the "animated realism" looks.
You cant do realistic gfx without an engine like guild wars 2 for example. Anything less and the game just looks terrible. Plus If anyone has played gw2, you'll know just how badly they have managed to handle any mass scaled battles in wvw. So GAMEPLAY takes priority over high end gfx. They've gone for the perfect combination.
Don't worry, they wont go full toon like wow as these concepts have already shown. Have faith and just open your minds to the new world that will make Camelot unchained the best mmo since daoc :)
Male Vikings NEEDS beards... without beards.. man that would be a sad sad sad day ...
There will be beards, no worries.
I don't think people are complaining about the overall look of things, just the Vikings, and imo just the males of the vikings.
You don't need a fancy engine to change the haircuts of your models and maybe add a scar or two, some dirt and give them an overall meaner, rawer battle born look.
If this would have been any other race then the vikings i would be happy.
The female in the video was truly beautiful btw.
And i have already pledged 180$ and don't regret it at all, i just want to raise my opinion on this so we maybe could push the art direction of the male Vikings towards a more rawer look.
well that's ok, there's always going to be different opinions. But i'm pretty sure you'll be able to have beards so I don't think theres any cause for concern! (i'd be truly shocked if they had planned on Vikings without beards). And same for scars etc, this would all be in character creation, let's not fret with the first look of concepts, they really didn't do any facial detailing at all.
As for dirt. I disagree. I do not want my epic looking character in his epic armour remotely dirty. I like the armour to "pop". Rawer or meaner is hard to judge. We'll see what they come up with.
I guess it's up to CSE to find a compromise :)
Just been catching up on the thread. Tons of insightful comments from the previous posts below to why this doesn't look right and how it could be improved that I can agree with.
Further to what I have already said and as I already am a day one contributor, leveraging the week-end time I have been talking to get several friends to chime in, some old DAOC veterans, some not.
The common reaction when they saw the artwork and concepts is that none of them of them picked up that these should be Vikings. But the best comment yet is from my wife: Are they all girls? Or why are all those men so effeminate?
Of course nothing against that in modern times, but these are just not Vikings, post apocalyptic or not.
I love this unexpected way of the looking. It is innovative and still old fashioned. And maybe I m paranoid, but both the TDD and the Vi have elements of a dragon in it.
Wait, what? Some of the art above is supposed to be males? I thought the post was about female Vikings, and it didn't occur to me some are males. Even after second look, they look female.
@Negura, you're right. The female looks like she's 14, maybe 16. I'm sure there are players that age, but I bet vast majority of CU playerbase is twice that age, or older than me (38). I don't want to play an effeminate teen male (or female!) like depicted in the concept art. I want to play a grown man who has character.
I absolutely love the look of these vikings! I cannot wait to see more as this game comes into fruition! Keep up the good work guys and hopefully us backers can bring in some more cash to keep this kickstarter rolling!!! If this doesn't get funded I'm going to die a little inside, as I'm sure many of the other backers will as well.
I also thought most of the models to be female. Ok, let's make the men muscular, with beards & scars. But pls let me keep my beautiful warrior woman.
Good morning Team!
For me the character creation is one of the things that draw me into an MMO. I spend time picking out facial features, hair styles, body builds and everything else that goes into a character that I will be spending 30+ hours a week with.
I hope that Camelot Unchained will give the players a chance to create a character that is vastly different from everyone else in the game.
Another thing to think about....male casters. Please do not make all their outfits, robes, skirts or anything similar. For once I'd like my male caster to wear pants and a vest and not some dress.
I'll say it...why can't male toons look sexy in an mmo? Females always look like playboy centerfolds while male toons are just blah. Just my nickle and dime.
Thanks for the updates! I look forward to hearing more.
A couple of comments from a new backer, old DAoC player. 1) A new look for the Vikings is all good and well, as long as there is a justification for it in the story background. Still, certain features of the Viking culture should be present -- traditional jewellery is one thing that comes to mind. 2) One thing about the walking animation seemed off to me: the huge polearm was swinging too freely, giving an illusion of no mass at all. A polearm of that length would not swing that much (or she has hellishly strong wrists ;). The illusion of mass and inertia is very important in animation, to state a thing obvious to everyone :)
@Benjamin - You have to keep in mind that the world/characters will have low-to-mid poly counts; a 100% "realistic" approach to the artstyle would be impaired by that.
I don't understand. The ‘soft skin and anime hair’ (the only one with a modern haircut blatantly has breasts, by the way) would be all right if they're female, but not if they're male?
Effeminate? Teen? The image are very small, but from what I can make out, they very much have the facial structures of Scandinavian men, and I don't know what else is visible that you could be making these judgments by. We can lament the absence of beards, and yeah, the possibility is always nice, but:
1. This is a very small sample size.
2. It's not the 9th century. The world has been blown back to an early medieval state technologically, but just technologically, as I understand it. It wasn't a time warp. Of course we know very little yet about the lore, but I can't currently imagine that there would be much reason to suddenly adopt all the customs and quirks of the ancient vikings in full displacement of the ones of modern Scandinavia.
@Γρηγόρης Γρηγορίου - The polygon count is fine as it is, however. I don't think that's what Benjamin is talking about.
@Kyle C. Rybski
What is it you don't understand? If picture one 1st and 2nd from the left and picture three 1st and 2nd from the left are supposed to be males, then yes i think they look way to effeminate to be vikings in the Arthurian setting we're playing in. I want my Vikings raw, battle hardened, angry an overall meaner looking men. Not boys.
How can you not understand this? Its not facts we're talking about, its quite simple really. It's taste.
Either way, its just concept art and shouldn't be read to much in to. Just voicing my opinion on how i felt about the males shown in the pictures above.
Love it, But make the men Men, only one problem in MHO I didn't like the toothy look for the belt midriff area. That belongs on a shield or boat, maybe Barding on a horse, but on a midriff, no way.
I am getting ready to play, bring it on.
[MJ] Just a couple of quick comments and then it's time to film an update
1) Thanks for the feedback; good, bad, indifferent, it's all good. :)
2) Most of the concept art was for female Vikings not male Vikings as per my instruction to the team. We started with a male TTD then went with a female Viking.
3) The main reason that our female Viking has more color in the model than some of you want/expected is mainly because we will have dyes in our game. What's the point of having an art style that is all browns/dull tones if people are going to color over it anyways? I'd rather try to embrace what we know some of our players are going to do anyways.
4) As always, this is just our first Viking model, expect it to evolve/change over time. The evolution of a game’s art style is never a sprint (which we are in now), it’s a marathon. If we fund, we will spend the next two years working on our game’s art style, continually refining it.
5) For those who think that Viking have to be in dull colors, I would urge you to check out some of the resources on the web that discuss what we actually know about Viking culture/garb as you might be surprised. Again, there is nothing wrong with wanting them to be darker and grittier but that is very different from saying “they must be darker and grittier because that is more realistic”. ☺
Here are a few useful links with lots of cool info and more links/citations.
My favorite quote: The Icelandic sagas often mentions clothing color. Brightly colored clothing was a symbol of wealth and power, no doubt due to the additional expense of the dye stuffs and the multiple dyeing operations required to make bright colors. The wearing of black (blár) clothing is a frequent literary convention in the sagas, indicating that the wearer is about to kill someone.
6) FYI, I like them, especially for our first shot at them. ☺
Keep the feedback coming!
I will not say that the Caracter Style is not important,but in my eyes the gameplay makes the day. For sure, this artwork looks to clean, but it will not take the desicion if the game is ok for me.
What´s about the Idea that a Char will get "dirty" and "bloody" in the combats and as long you didn´t relog, the dirt and blood stays on the Char. During your off time, the Char takes a bath and clean up his Gear.
@MJ: Thanks for the updates and I agree we totally need proper dyes. That was awesome back then and it will be awesome now too.
I agree with most of the points, especially #5, but sorry not with #6 from my POV. Keep up the good work and look forward for more!
I know I will go back to spreading the word this week-end.
I reckon we all want to see that first million in. :)
@City State Entertainment
Cool to hear from you, looking forward to the update!
Really loved the female catwalk from the video and i cant wait to get to see more of CU in the coming days. Aaand to be a part of it WHEN you get funded:)
@MJ: My husband just raised a very valid point. We often confuse our perception of the Vikings, likely thanks to Hollywood, with how the Celts actually dressed. The Celts were generally far more ferocious in appearance then the Vikings with the horned helms and furs and the like.
Oh my god what have you done to the vikings have you got a japaneese designer these look nothing at all like a nordic race dont give me the old flannel about it costing money to make them look like realistic models these look terrible cant believe i was stupid enough to invest money in this when you are coming up with total garbage like this run a poll and see how many people like this crap wheres the mail where is the noseguard helms where in gods earth do you have teeth on a shield shes carrying a polearm for gods sake is this a joke !!!!
+1 even your text is horrible to read^^
@bruce sneddon - Do you want the same old stuff, wiped down and churned out again? Or a new take on something, which still sticks to the foundational principles.
I don't understand the complete negativity in your post - I think the art looks great.
However, the animated model seems to look awkward when walking to me.
I'd like to know how a people of farmers, to some extent merchants and part time plunderers, that the vikings of history was, or the fierce berserk warriors with a farmers background, living in a world of elves (Älfar), dwarfs, giants and whatnots... How did they suddenly become nomadic in style and appearance?
I understand that you (CSE) are going for your own approach to the mythology, but how far away can you stray before you have to call your creation something else than Viking?
This concept art can to some extent be transcribed to the northern mythology about dwarfs. It can also relate to Celtic mythology. But I fail to see any real resemblance to a viking at all, except for the hairbraid. Both style of clothes and weapons are so far away I would not have guessed they were to resemble vikings, ever.
My suggestion is to scrap all thoughts of mixing Celt and Viking mythology. (If you want Celtic stuff, both the Arthurians and the TDDs are closer related.) And that you begin working with a straightbacked farmer and venture from there, rather than from a nomadic hunter.
When it comes to weapons, think simple and useful rather than ornate. And think ornate only where it doesn't result in less usefulness. Efficiency.
Add wealth to the mix and you might see some pieces of mail armor, depending on how rich the owner.
On the other hand. If these guys wouldn't be ment to resemble vikings specificaly... I really like the appearance of most of these pics. Especially the touch of bone pieces, and even a huge skull for a shoulderguard. That stuff is awesome!
Also, feathers and different areas of leather are great ways to manage dyeing possibilities. I like that touch.
seeing as they aint even started yet, any kind of look is in for a LONG change, as they have also said many many times. i dont mind them at all, i didnt pledge 50$ for a pretty game, i did it for a good game, not like the PvE shit you get in other games.
also that style will help the load times and FPS drops most would get having 500 people on the screen at one time.
As far as realism goes, I find it very unlikely that Vikings would be using feathers over fur in armour/cloth creation. These dresses look like they've been pulled from a Rain Forest Tribe.
The shield as well, largely impractical. Light density bone is liable to shatter into your eyes, it also probably creates unneccesary weight. Why don't you look at actual Viking clothing and work from there, instead of trying to make it look fan(tasy)ciful.
Vibrant colours is one thing, completely unrealistic material usage is quite another. (At least in my book)
@CSE thanks for the links and comments MJ. For me it's not about the color, as can be seen from the costumes in the second link, they are bright but feel Viking. The concept art while gorgeous doesn't read as viking at all.
The model and art are rendered with such wonderful skill, it's very impressive, but it also comes off very high fashion, runway couture, even the hair is very glam rock. Which isn't peoples perception of Vikings. When making design decisions it's not just about what is accurate, but what your audience perceives as accurate that counts.