Use this space to cheer the creator along, and talk to your fellow backers.
Have a question?
LiMiT is right, it's all about the B2B stuff.
We didn't give them money to build and create a toy for buisiness-sales only. We gave them our money to create the Virtualizer for us! If they would've told us one day that they've failed and that they had to shut down - Ok, no problem! Mission failed, money gone.
That would have been easy to accept, BUT..
- instead of this they have the product ready but selling it to businesses only
- they have decided not to answer any questions anymore
- or to make any updates despite of their promises
- their last log on to kickstarter was on Sep 4. Uh yes, they care so much about us..
That's what I'd call SCAM. They maybe haven't been scammers in the first place, but in my eyes they have become scammers or whatever you may want to call them. Even if they are only a bunch of as******, who overestimated their capabilities. They got a lot of money.. a lot.. and yet there is no sign, absolutely no sign, that they are willing to fullfil their obligation to us.
we backed for virtualizer in development status.
Not for creating business 2 business stuff. They have a full working product since they already sold it to many many arcade halls and stuff like this.
There was no reward like "give us your money to get a working product so we can sell it to other companies".
I've been following Cyberith long before the Kickstarter. I pledged for a full setup (which I have not received yet, of course). However, I am also familiar with what Kickstarter is. If I pledged assuming I am guaranteed to receive anything in return, I would be merely a moron, or at best utterly ignorant of what Kickstarter is: Kickstarter is not an investment, nor is it a pre-order (i.e. you have not 'paid of' anything). You GIVE money to a person/persons in order for that money to be used for development. If you get the 'reward' in the event development is successful, great! But if you were not prepared to 'lose' that money if development is unsuccessful, or to wait a long time for a reward, then you should NEVER have been pledging in the first place, and you have only yourself to blame. I have followed development of the Virtualiser, seen both in pictures and firsthand the hardware development that has taken place (i.e where my money has gone), and am happy with that. It is, after all, exactly what I pledged for.
@Googolkhan - Court hearing is scheduled on November 15th.
This is regarding the lawsuit started in Austria. In the End I did not get committed to it, because the initial fee demanded just to cancel our contract with Cyberith to be able to start a lawsuit afterwards was just ridiculously high (several hundred euros!). I just don't want to risk to bury several hundred bucks again, I am not earning enough for this, sorry.
Honestly I've given up on getting the prommised virtualizer right now. :( But maybe some day Cyberith rises from the dead and remembers his backers *harharhar*
And in the end, we all know when backing a project on kickstarter - this is not a online shop! Kickstarter Terms always said, they can not guarantee any project success ever. It's up to us backers if we "believe" the project makers can deliver.
But I hope the lawsuit delivers you guys the results you are hoping for!
What happend to the lawsuit though? Any progress right now?
@edzieba Are you new to this campain, There was no plan of product development when Cyberith shared this project with the people. Product Development startet just to communcate delays. I never accepted product development and clearly communicated it after they communicated because that not what i have paid for.
As a reminder as you may mist it : "Risks and challenges
Since we are a young team and hardware production and shipping is not always smooth sailing, there of course are some obstacles to overcome. We are well aware that production, shipping and logistics are the major problem areas for Start-Ups and Kickstarter projects. That's why we decided to outsource them and teamed up with experts for the respective areas.
We have already found local partners who have decades of experience in producing elaborate hardware and who will now produce, assemble and transport the Virtualizer. Some materials and parts from external sources will be utilized too, but every single step of production and assembly will be covered in one plant. If there still should be any unforeseen circumstances we can visit the manufacturers easily and sort the problems out quickly. Not only are our partners always within reach, but they will also deliver the highest level of "Made in Europe"-quality. Logistics and shipping will also be taken over by a professional company with years of experience, so the Virtualizer is guaranteed to arrive safely at your door!
It is very important for us to keep our promises that's why we limited the number of the offered Virtualizers to a number that is manufacturable in time.
Another point that also should be addressed is stress testing. Albeit Prototype 2 has been tested thoroughly by over 2000 people at various conventions over the last year, we have not stress tested Prototype 3 this extensively yet. That being said, Prototype 3 represents an improvement in every aspect and we expect it to be at least as durable as Prototype 2. Since our analyses, simulations and tests deliver affirmative results, we are confident in being able to deliver the quality we promise to."
I have to say it's pretty hilarious that the ones complaining about a 'scam' and demanding refunds (and thus clearly have no idea how product development works and have no place backing a kickstarter) are quite happy to throw more of their money at a nebulous 'lawsuit'.
I have honestly given up on getting my money back, I would really love to see these guys out of business, no longer walking around pretending like they own a tech company and definitely never to enter the VR industry again... Oh and Kickstarter, I have never backed anything since, thanks for profiting off scams and doing nothing to assist in resolution.
To people who think they can start companies, cut corners, not prove a viable business model to sophisticated investors and go on KS with a flashy video and lies and steal peoples money with no consequence. The internet remembers who you are...
I wanted to join the lawsuit but sadly i wasnt able to pay the starting price to be able to join the lawsuit.
@Joey Same, I was going to use it for a thesis, but im long graduated now. I don't know if they will ever bring it to market. We kind of just funded their business not the product. I have this small glimmer of hope that maybe we will get the Virtualizer, but with their track record I don't think so.
So... I backed this project in order to run my first-year project for my Ph.D. programme... I am graduating, and still don't have it... This is just surreal.
@Kamal Of course, any outcome is possible and none of all have all the information - however Cyberith's almost complete absence from any marketing efforts the last year, woefully poor resourcing to be able to respond to messages / post updates, as well as their inability to even start a production run for KickStarter backers, would in my experience - as director of a very similar company in both size and market - give some reasonable indications as to their current financial position. What's on paper won't detail the company's current unpaid debts either, which would only really ever become apparent if they're forced into administration.
I hope I'm wrong believe me, but I'd have expected far more visibility from them in recent times if they were really that solvent.
@Kamai Taibi, thanks for your explanation. Regards.
@Kamal Taibi I can provide you the financial situation with Cyberith. I bought some documents before I started my lawsuit
@Jose G. Garcia, I can not add anybody as the lawsuit has already started in Austria.
And to be honest, I have seen a lot of people leaving their email address, but when it was time to get really committed (paying a fee to the law firm), they didn't want to get involved.
I will see the outcome of this lawsuit, and stay clear from Kickscammer
I learnt my lesson.
Thank you @Kamal Taibi. Please add email@example.com
@Antonio Ochoa Nieto, I'm from spain. I would like to talk with you about It. Jose G. firstname.lastname@example.org Thank you.
@Chris Jarram, you don't have any data about Cyberith's financial state. I guess that you have some good experience and knowledge, but I think that you can not make any reliable forecast. If you have got any access to Cyberith's accountancy, you would be able to make a reasonable statement.
@Antonio Ochoa Nieto - Unlikely. In the event they're broke they'd likely apply for administration / liquidation - KS backers would be at the very bottom of the list of preferential creditors for any sort of rebate. Typically I'd expect that to be 1-5 cents on the dollar of anything awarded by the court, if anything at all.
As for control of assets (software / hardware), there is nothing to stop them simply starting up a new company as a seperate legal entity, and transferring ownership from one to another for a nominal amount of money - the assets will be for sale as part of the administration process, and typically shareholders or other potential investors would bail the company out that way in order to absolve them of all their debts.
In that situation, none of us get our money, or our Virtualizers, being part of the action or not. The only hope now is they have enough money to cover the refunds and still stay in business so the rest of the backers who can't afford the legal costs still, eventually even if several years from now, receive their rewards.
@Renaud Avisse, @Jason W ... sorry, I am too busy at the moment.
@Kamal Taibi email@example.com
@Kamal Taibi I'm in did not want to come to this but its been years. firstname.lastname@example.org
@Antonio Ochoa Nieto, we will get more details hopefully soon.
Also if they are broke cant our lawyers take everything from them and sale in an action to pay us. Or wound't we end up with the rights to the blue prints and total control on the virtualizer and the edk software.
Hey guys just a quick question. If our lawyer think they can win this fight . wouldn't they also know the companies financial state?
@Kamal... and potentially scupper the chances of those that don't join the legal action from ever receiving their product as a result of company dissolution.
It's a double edged sword and the risks are what they are; It is highly possible every person joining the action is throwing good money after bad, but that's up to the individual and I do hope it works out for everyone no matter what choice they make.
@Pascal Künzli, when I say "different purpose", it means using our money for:
Paying a booth for expensive trade shows, just look at this:
With Steven Spielberg and the cute chicks ...
Look at Tuncay Cakmak's face ... so delighted.
Cyberith wanted to setup a company. They hired Sales people.
Again with our money.
Cyberith wanted to develop a video game. They hired Game Developers.
With our money again:
Cyberith wants this, and this, and this, and spend, and spend ...
But what about the Kickstarter project ...
Cyberith didn't focus on delivering that project.
Cyberith wanted to become Tech Stars. They were not humble and they failed.
Now we ask to get our money back, they ignore us.
Because they want to keep living their dream.
They are hiding now, because they feel like sh**.
I have supported so many Kickstarter projects, and the Virtualizer is the only one that has failed to deliver.
I can accept failure, but Cyberith did NOT work on fulfilling the goal of this project.
Steven Spielberg, cute chicks, hiring new employees, video game ...
WHAT THE HELL !! This is a MESS! I DID NOT BACK THIS.
@Pascal Künzli, we got that. But Cyberith has used our money for a complete different purpose. This is unlawful. Cyberith has broken the agreement first. Not us.
Virtuix Omni is proposing a similar product. They took the decision to refund the Kickstarter backers due to not being able to deliver the Omni into all countries:
Virtuix Omni management is fair.
Cyberith did not show any evidence of ethical business values.
Nice text of an other project (there money will be refund) but perhaps a reminder for few persons here:
and the mentioned section 4 you will find here:
@Matus please do you have any evidence proving that Cyberith US does not exist anymore. I am going to submit it to our solicitors.
You convinced yourself that Cyberith as no money left. Actually you have no proof of that.
Cyberith is taking us for a ride for over 2 years.
You want them keep doing this ? It's your decision.
I have too much pride to accept this any longer.
They have to tell their lies to a Judge and face the consequences.
I don't believe in this project, but I don't think that a lawsuit will incur anything but costs. If you want to go to the court in NY, the first thing to consider is that Cyberith US Inc doesn't exist anymore. The company was created just to collect money and those were then transfered to Austria, Europe. This is how international KS were done with the old KS terms of service. Strictly, such procedure is a fraud - irrespective of the outcome of the KS. However, suing due to a fraud is a long shot since there has to be evidence of the cash flow and some evidence of a fraudulent intent.
@Farhad Abdi, once we get the lawsuit officially running, we can contact the media and tech blogs.
Someone living on their country should contact the media and tell them about the law case and how we have been treated. That may just do it. Who knows?
@Chris Jarram, some backers are still believing in that project. They don't want a refund. If you don't claim anything to the court, it means your are still happy with the agreement made with Cyberith.
Only those who paid the dissolution contract fee can claim something in court.
Hi Kamal, Sure, I'm aware of that (re: legal representation and refunds). The legal fees at this stage however are still unknown, and in case like this can escalate rapidly. Aside from there being no guarantee of a win, If 30 people went to court and say ended up paying 500€ each (most likely more) for the whole process that's already 15k€ before refunds. Factor in an average refund of 700€ (some buyers bought more than one), as well as Cyberith's own potential defence costs (~15k€) and we're actually closer to a total 50k€ (~$60k). That's also before any fines that may be imposed by the court if it's deemed laws have been flouted. Given the very low number of units they're currently selling, pitched against an estimated burn rate, I'd be very surprised if that didn't finish them...
@Chris Jarram, I think only the backers who paid to get represented by the Solicitor can claim their money back + court fees. Those who are unwilling to take any action against Cyberith can still hope to get their virtualizer.
We can expect just a few people to pay the court fee. If this group of backers wins, Cyberith won't be hit too hard ($10,000 or $15,000 maximum to pay back).
Cyberith is selling 2 versions of the "virtualizer" at €6,000 and €10,000, so Cyberith can still be alive after losing in Court.
I am not that sure that they can restart a new company, especially if it's proven that they have cheated the backers.
A court order is one thing - insolvency is another. I think the lawsuit will almost certainly put these guys out of business, but when they go into administration any funds left will go to 'preferred creditors' first - i.e. not KS backers. I certainly wouldn't expect a refund or reimbursement of legal expenses so there may be no winners here; the point would be to make an example of them. Bare in mind they can easily fire up another company and transfer IP - I've fallen foul of this before and lost far more money than we're taking about here. I strongly suspect they couldn't currently even afford the refunds, let alone the legal bill... this leaves only one option.
We will win! and we will get all the expenses back and our money back, BTW what is State? next to the signature. Are we signing as well or are they? Dong give up, don't let them win!!!.
@David Loppion, most of the people won't do anything, because when shit happens most of people just watch, but don't do anything. I am going to pay the solicitor, because I want to send these scammers to the Court.
Now it's time for action.
We paid for a product that was due in March 2015. We waited for over 2 years.
We have been really patient.
They don't send any update. They used our money to setup a company and make BtoB deals.
They have no product to deliver. They ignore us when we ask for a refund.
We have plenty of reasons to win the case. Judges are not stupid, and you can be sure they have dealt with a lot of unethical/unlawful companies with shady business practices like Cybertih.
340 people paid more than 599$, but only 33 backers are mentioned on that mail, where are you guys...
So we have to pay 240 + 50 € before the 15th of August and fill the poa and send a receipt if the pledged to cyberith.
What if we loose against them?
Did you guys get the email, yet?
Cyberith have also listed some of their customers here:-
Time to have a word with some of these guys too methinks!
Very much looking forward to having our day in court and making an example of these guys.
I'm personally planning on contacting a few online publications to raise awareness of this class action; it's hugely in the public interest primarily as it demonstrates 1) how easily companies can abuse KickStarter to raise funds for 'production runs' which are then spent elsewhere, and 2) KickStarter provides no support whatsoever to backers in such eventualities.
These individuals are criminals who have failed entirely in their obligation to fund the production run paid for by backers, and have instead pumped these funds into a vapourware game title and setup and promotion of a B2B company. Let's ensure once this is said and done that their reputation is left in such a state they'll never be involved in the industry again!
oh definable count me in. email@example.com
@Kamal Taibi: sure why not firstname.lastname@example.org
@Kamal Taibi: Please count me in! Mail: email@example.com
Good luck to take this company apart. I mean it is clear they will never deliver, What they selling at the moment just keeps them alive and not more. They will never produce the cash to create mass production, But at least i was right from the beginning that they will fuck up our money.:-) I am interested how this will run. You start a class action against cyberith they will have to open their numbers for what they spend the money and if something is left and i doubt that. Conclusion will be that they miss used our money to travel around the planned and having nice shows in any corner of the world. So 350K$ goes in to big numbers, hence not only a fine it will be jail for the company owners unless they can pay out what i don't expect. @enjoy your days without government paid rooms. :-).
We are about to run a collective class action vs. Cyberith. Those ones who want to join can share their interest on the forum.