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Play as an alien plant and escape from a scientific facility, full of secrets and dangerous experiments.
Play as an alien plant and escape from a scientific facility, full of secrets and dangerous experiments.
5,953 backers pledged $144,960 to help bring this project to life.

Development state and new project: GOTY

Posted by Asthree Works (Creator)
25 likes

As we informed you a week ago we were working extra hours to launch a campaign for a new project and here it is. We think that transparency is key and that's the reason we wanted you to know about this new game since day one... For us is extremely important to keep being crystal clear about all things concerning not only Paradise Lost, but all the stuff we are working on.

The story so far

Taking a look back at last year from the perspective of development, we didn’t stop fantasizing about how things would have been if we had made different choices. 2014 was going to be a major step for us. Our project obtained financing and we were able to devote to full time development and bring PLFC to life. We engaged in a work schedule that filled us and we loved it. Working on what you really like is a luxury, but nobody tells you about the sacrifices you must do to fulfill your dreams.

Communication problems and the lack of a common goal led us to rethink the initial formation of the team and so we lost a friend, colleague and partner. It was a blow, but the worst part was having to let go all the game’s code: A year of development to the trash. All our hopes were suddenly gone and having to watch how an important part of your project dissapears was pretty fucked up. We had to rise above that and continue making the game. We made a promise to all of you, and that’s not gonna change.

With the things learned and the hard work made by our programmer Carlos we were able to improve a lot of features, like AI and certains aspects of gameplay. We even managed to add stuff that we thought impossible like pixel art rotation, which became a featured asset on the Unity store.

This doesn’t mean that everything is done and lot of stuff is yet to be made, plus working so long in a game that had an initial forecast of a single year burned out both Sigrid and I. The frustration of starting all over again is something that is there, like a thorn.

Summer arrived and we felt that more than a good rest we needed an outlet for our creativity, avoiding to get stuck and stay fresh with new concepts, so we started to create GOTY from time to time outside work hours. After a while we realized that this pastime could become something more, so we decided to polish it. The game seemed fun to play and we decided to give it a chance on Kickstarter.

Why now? Because this project is a way to reflect our current experience as game developers and also address from a positive perspective the problems that happen frequently in game development, specially if you are an independent dev. We felt the need to see if we are still sharp with original concepts.

If the project has any success, we’ll promise all of you that it won’t have a negative impact regarding Paradise Lost. As far as GOTY goes, it’s an already-made project. Even with all the setbacks that have happened so far, we’ve given you constant info and material to back our words, and we’ll continue to do so month after month. PLFC is our beloved child and we are working hard on it to give you a playable sneak peak ASAP.

Release date and gameplay material

So far we were contrary to give you a certain release, because we know what is going to happen… give you a date and then have to delay the project, like most of Kickstarters out there. Our first priority is to finish the level editor and send to backers a preview build as soon as possible. From that point will be able to establish a realistic timetable, but expect a year from now.

Well, with all things said we present to you our new project:

GOTY the card game

GOTY is a tabletop game where you can experience the process of making video games, trying to avoid setbacks and bizarre situations like deleting work by mistake, losing a partner, receiving a lawsuit or even survive a flood in the studio.

Besides all of this, you have to create your project by completing the tasks of the different categories that take part of a game. In order to do so you must bring together the best professionals, collecting assets and gathering a set of abilities to take advantage over the rest of players.

If you want to know more about the game and also help us bring it to life, you can check here the Kickstarter campaign. We hope that you like it and don't forget to stay tuned for more info (but next time only Paradise Lost related) ;)

Thanks in advance for your support and understanding!

Igor Klimer, Johnny Johnson, and 23 more people like this update.

Comments

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    1. WarStalkeR on

      Oh, I even forgot that I've backed this project...

    2. Asthree Works 2-time creator on

      @Chris Harvey you are asking for an information that is already posted in this update:
      "Release date and gameplay material: ...from that point will be able to establish a realistic timetable, but expect a year from now."

    3. Chris Harvey on

      When can we expect Paradise Lost? Providing an estimated date, however ephemeral, would most likely go a long way in soothing much of the rancor being encountered here. You artfully segued away from the title we here backed in order to promote your new project (poor idea to do so, shows your priorities are not aligned appropriately if you ask me), but gave us little information that we would be interested in otherwise.

    4. Asthree Works 2-time creator on

      @Lars H we'll publish a gameplay video soon, but we can't guarantee a certain date. We are full at work and some things need to be fixed. Anyway don't worry, we are on it :)

    5. Lars H on

      Please prove all critics wrong by providing an update with gameplay content (video with ~ 10 minutes should be fine).
      I would like to see it until the 20th of November.

    6. Adam Vittorio on

      @Gambler- Maybe you should pay attention to THIS comment section. A number of the people complaining here ARE from the creative business world, and HAVE undergone similar projects. And most of them agree this is unacceptable. You also can't possibly believe that creating an entire additional project and then kickstarting it alongside another isn't going to affect the original's completion. If they were a larger company, maybe. But they aren't, and there is only a certain amount of work a small team like this can possibly handle at one time. If you think that customer service and sales *alone* wouldn't cut in to their current projects completion, you are naive at best.

      The "we only worked on this on weekends" crap is just that ~ crap. It would have been fine if they built the project during free time- if they hadn't immediately started trying to manufacture and sell it prior to completing their first project. But that isn't the case. Do you think they won't be handling questions and sales calls from the GOTY project now? Do you honestly believe, especially if the project does well, that they won't end up with manufacturing issues? Extra sales to handle? Even more customer questions? Other, possibly unforeseen issues?

      Also, apart from one or two people almost no one is complaining about what happened with their programmer. That said, I agree crap happens and there are always growing pains, especially in a project this size. However, that does not mean you then start working on something else, knowing it will impact your main project. In fact, exactly what happened with their programmer should be the big red flag that makes them stop and think "Hey! Maybe starting another project right now isn't the right thing to do, considering we can see now how EASILY stuff goes wrong in a big creative project such as this!"

      But hey you're right, we're just whining and being... uh, "suboptimal"?
      Mmk.

    7. Missing avatar

      Gambler on

      Guys, they did this in their free time and its a card game, no computer game. I agree that the timing may not be perfect, but being a programmer myself I also know that you sometimes have to distract yourself from your main project to avoid going nuts - so I can totally understand their doing!
      Don't know yet if I should back it, we'll see. But whining around and crying for refund is just suboptimal in my point of view.
      Yeah, they had a bad time back then losing the programmer and all his work (you can read about it in the comments back then), but so is life. They dealt with it and I think also learned from it, which is the normal way when you're doing bigger scale projects.
      Seriously, I bet some of those who complain have never been in the creative business like drawing, writing or programming. Just let them do their work, I'm looking forward to the next update which hopefully will contain ingame footage :)

    8. Philhouse
      Superbacker
      on

      I'm cool with this. Not sure that I'll back the new one, due to shipping and exchange rates making it kinda expensive, but I'm not mad or anything. Though I don't get mad very easily.

    9. Go on

      Upsetting and kinda sad folks. Another half arsed startup company dropping the ball. Nothing to see here, move along.

    10. Adam Vittorio on

      Ok, you know what? Bottom line, launching another campaign is beyond shameful. You said you worked on GOTY on the weekends? And this was AFTER you were already aware you were going to have major setbacks with Paradise Lost...? Which means you could have been using that... "creative time" as you put it... to try and make up for the lost development time for Paradise Lost, no? Instead, you chose to try and cash-grab on an idea, one probably significantly easier to develop and manufacture?? That. Is. Deplorable. It is terrible business, plain and simple, and honestly pretty unethical. And please, explain to me how you need an additional "creative outlet" while working on a video game about an imprisoned intelligent alien plant trying to make their escape from a research station? This is incredibly insulting, and I have half a mind to pay the $25 for GOTY, JUST so I can warn others about your shoddy business practices. Despicable.

    11. Imaria on

      These things do NOT "just happen". To lose all an employee's work because they left is irregular. A mistake was made that allowed that to happen, and a large one.

      But that whole debacle is more an example than it is the singular issue. I'm not entirely sure why you're still trying to convince backers here that GOTY is a good idea; you've gone ahead and launched the second Kickstarter anyway. You clearly didn't need our approval. And there's no refunds, so it's not like we can walk away from Paradise Lost either.

      At this point, all I can do is hope that I see what I paid for someday and communicate what has gone on here if relevant. But please don't expect me to be happy about it.

    12. Imaria on

      These things do NOT "just happen". To lose all an employee's work because they left is irregular. A mistake was made that allowed that to happen, and a large one.

      But that whole debacle is more an example than it is the singular issue. I'm not entirely sure why you're still trying to convince backers here that GOTY is a good idea; you've gone ahead and launched the second Kickstarter anyway. You clearly didn't need our approval. And there's no refunds, so it's not like we can walk away from Paradise Lost either.

      At this point, all I can do is hope that I see what I paid for someday and communicate what has gone on here if relevant. But please don't expect me to be happy about it.

    13. David De Ost on

      Honestly, I couldn't care less about a release date being pushed back or a developer suffering setbacks. When you back a project on Kickstarter, you know you're paying for a promise, not a product. Despite some apparent errors in judgment, it seems that Asthree Works are still committed to their promise of releasing the game, and that's really what matters most. This is a developer making mistakes, not a scam-artist like Maksym Pashanin with Confederate Express.

      That said, I can understand backers who are bothered with the new Kickstarter. You asked us for trust that our funds would, eventually, create a game, and that's fine. But asking us for even more trust after setbacks, and at the same time asking for another financial gamble for a new project is somewhat in bad taste - after all, you're showing that you have a lot of trouble handling just one project, why take on a second at this time? I'm sure there's plenty of opportunity to create GOTY when Paradise Lost is finished, in fact, when your first project is completed, you'll have much more trust from the crowd, and thus more funds from your Kickstarter.

      Best of luck with GOTY but I do humbly think that launching another Kickstarter when the first one is still more than you can handle at this time was a bad move.

    14. Asthree Works 2-time creator on

      @Imaria we understand perfectly that some of our backer are upset. The game took a longer delay than we expected and a second campaign for another game will seem like a terrible mistake and a lack of responsibility.
      We really really really understand that some of you can see it like that BUT nothing could be further from the truth.
      When someone is outside the project (or not read updates regularly –I’m not saying it’s your case at all–) tend to assume things. We could already have had this discussion in November last year but I would suppose that you are twitch not because we loss the code, but instead we launched a new campaign for a completely different project while develop Paradise Lost. And you're right, you have every right to be upset but really, you do not have to be.
      We appreciate that you gave us your vote of confidence when we announced the delay and developmental changes. The understanding of all of you gave us courage at the time and we’re very grateful. So as we said earlier, the new project change nothing for the development of Paradise Lost and we’d like you to see this in perspective and to try to separate the two projects, in the same way we do.

      We’re still working on Paradise Lost every day. Sigrid and I came up with the project from scratch and the other team member at that time (our past friend) joined us trying to give life to PLFC. The experience didn’t work and we parted. These kind of things happen unfortunately, and complicated decisions had to be made in order to maintain the intellectual property of the game. It’s hard and we learned a lot from it. Henceforth it’s important that all of you to understand that the lost code has already been more than achieved and improved by our current programmer Carlos.

      Paradise Lost is a very ambitious game and we don’t want to cut any part of them or offer you half the experience so we’re working on a long-distance development schedule. What does this mean? It means that we estimate how many time a task will take us and then multiply by three to be able to control complications during the process. We are a rookie team that didn’t worked on this industry before so we are learning things step by step.

    15. Imaria on

      When it first happened, I still had faith in them to fix their colossal screwup. Now, they're off to get more money with an unrelated project while having shown NO coding progress since the other programmer left.

      I was just as unhappy at the time, but I was also willing to forgive them. I backed this project because I believed in the team, and at that point I still did.

      Now? Not so much. I'd accept a refund if it was on the table, though I don't care enough to actively pursue one. When they first lost the programmer, I still felt the game would be completed. If I still got what I paid for, it didn't matter if they switched programmers and started over.

      But now that they're starting new projects as Paradise Lost has dragged on? I have a problem, because it's increasingly looking like Paradise Lost won't get completed. Not because I think the developers will cut and run, but because they're simply going to run out of money due to mismanagement.

    16. Zane
      Superbacker
      on

      @Imaria Where was all this outrage about the programmer when they told us out about it? Back then would have been the time to ask a lot of questions. They've moved on and done what they had to continue to make the game. Almost a year after something happens (Nov 1 2014 was the update) isn't the time to go pitching a fit because you don't pay attention to updates and demand an explanation of things they decided to do.

      It's like a parent that abandons their kid then comes back when they are a teenager and complains about the way they were raised. You didn't pay attention to the updates explaining what was going on so in my opinion you have little right to complain about how they got to where they are today.

    17. Missing avatar

      Sleet
      Superbacker
      on

      Thanks for the update, guys, and best of luck on the card game! I'm throwing a few bucks into it because it looks neat and want to give it a proper look when I have time.

    18. Imaria on

      To you, the delays have been a valuable life lesson. Something you've learned to laugh at, even to the point of making a cute little game about it.

      But for us, your "life lesson" cost US a year's wages for a programmer who left zero impact on our investment. And now you're trying to release a game about Kickstarting a game, without having even successfully Kickstarting a game yet.

      Tell us, in the interest of transparency: how much in wages did that programmer collect during their year? This programmer who you called a "friend"?

      You've wasted our money, and we were patient with that. But if you're going to screw around, then yes, we're going to be ticked off. The reason you're seeing the same complaints is because you're refusing to acknowledge that we're justified in being ticked off and just plowing ahead anyway.

      I encourage all angry backers to contact video game media outlets regarding the "wasted year programmer" when the GOTY Kickstarter launches. These developers have shown willful disregard for using backer funds responsibly, and prospective backers need to be aware of their track record.

    19. Asthree Works 2-time creator on

      @Chris Skuller we ended up in really bad terms with our previous programmer so, as long as we stayed with the intellectual and creative properties of the game we let the code go, avoiding future plaints and problems that could appear once the game is released. We saw first hand this kind of situations in other studios and we didn’t want to lose Paradise Lost for this reason, so we rejected the programming part. That was told many times since it happened as other backers stated in the comments. Thanks to this decision we can further develop the game without fear of legal obstacles.

      @Imaria we take note for your concerns about being more specific about the technical process; and we don’t have any problem keeping you up to date with this kind of things. We simply decided to not bore or frighten any of you with the ups and downs of this part, but from now on we’ll try to post a tech section addressing the programming part too.
      About the lost of code, it’s explained in the response above to @Chris Skuller.

      - - -

      > For the rest of people concerned about the development:

      I think that we answered to all issues related to Paradise Lost not only on this comment section over and over, but also in previous updates like some backers stated. We’ll do our best with Paradise Lost, and continue posting material about the game, even include some of your suggestions like more tech-related advances or publish gameplay footage to take a closer look about the AI and the reaction of the enemies. We have nothing to hide with this project, believe it or not.
      To this point there is nothing more that we can post that we didn’t respond already or has been written several times in earlier posts.

    20. Zane
      Superbacker
      on

      I'm in shock of how many people seem to have not been paying attention to this project at all (ok not really). The situation with the programmer happened a while ago and they informed us about it. Complaining now just shows how ignorant some people are about the projects they back.

      @Ashtree Works Good Luck with the side project! Try not to let any of the negative comments bring you down.

    21. Missing avatar

      Gilad Garon on

      I'm sorry but you've delayed PLFC to the end of 2016 and now you want our support on a new project? By my standards this kind of behavior is considered rude.

      I think that you should do the following:
      Commit on a deadline for PLFC and allow refunds for those who do not want to back the project anymore.

      You said the you created GOTY outside of your working hours. I don't know what your working hours are, for all I know you could be not working on PLFC at all...

      PLFC is not a hobby job, you asked for financing and got it. I'm a developer as well, and if I told my manager I was behind on my job and won't make the extra effort of recovering that time I would be frowned upon.

      So don't be surprised or insulted if your backers do not look kindly upon GOTY.

    22. Ng Jun Siang on

      It's glad to see you guys having fun on side pursuits, worst thing to happen now would be burn-out.

      I'm not really a card game sort of person, but all the best with your side project, and I am eagerly awaiting the next PLFC update ☺

    23. R3d Wing on

      Look, I'm willing to let it go because, in all honesty, it looks like the game is still being made, and at least updates are coming through, which is more than I can say about other projects that either update only rarely or aren't being worked on at all MIDORA-style.

      So congrats on actually posting backer updates with some level of frequency that are also interesting to look at and read, because that's a lot more than you can say for other stuff. I wish you the best of luck with this project and all that goes on.

    24. Missing avatar

      LK100 on

      Wait, what?!

      You have no real progress for a year, then you take everyone's money and say you are burnt out and have been working on another game instead of the one we paid for?! Are you serious?

      This is the worst update I have heard. You are basically saying you took everyone's money, violated their trust, and the decided to have fun working on something else. I want my money back, this is unreal.

      Ed

    25. Missing avatar

      BSL on

      @Asthree Works - Two words of advice Keiji Inafune. He did a similar thing with his Red Ash project and the KS failed miserably. If you're going to go to the well again you either need to be Brian Fargo and have a solid release track record and history of releasing successful projects or extremely good will from backers. This isn't the golden age of Kickstarter anymore.

    26. Imaria on

      Regarding "keeping us informed":

      Go read the updates for the Kickstarter game "Cosmic Star Heroine". THAT is the kinds of stuff I want to see. "Got the frame rate up on the Vita", or "reduced RAM requirements". You could practically plot their progress on a chart.

      All I've seen is pixel art, over and over. Maybe a design CONCEPT. You might not have ANY code, for all I know.

      At best, I refuse to back your next project. But at this point? I'd be inclined to warn people away from it. I don't care if you have GOTY finished; it makes terrible business sense to try and launch it now. Sit on the concept, and prove you can get this done first.

      And regarding your programmer: it was easy for YOU to just let them go and scrap a years work. Unfortunately, that's a terrible thing to say to the people who PAID THEM for a year and got nothing for the investment.

    27. Chris Skuller
      Superbacker
      on

      Even after reading the update AND all the comments below, I still don't understand how a programmer was able to take a year's worth of code... code that was paid for with your backers money... with him when he left. Guys, I really like this project, but this whole situation doesn't sit right with me at all. If it wouldn't be too much trouble, please explain to us in detail why letting him take the code with him when he left was the best course of action. I'm willing to listen. Heck, I probably would even be interested in backing the new kickstarter, but not until things are explained better.

    28. PaulloDEC on

      As long as I get to play PLFC sometime down the line, I'm happy for you guys do what you've gotta do. GOTY looks neat, too.

      For everyone concerned about the lateness of the project, pretty much every single game I've backed on Kickstarter (more than 30 at this point) has been delayed, most by more than a year. This is basically normal for crowdfunded games now. Don't stress.

    29. Paul Hamilton on

      Good luck with the mini side project too! =)

      I fully support the use of spare time creatively to keep your minds fresh and help prevent burn out. Many people outside of creative fields wont be able to appreciate just how easy it is to get burnt out being faced with the same project day in day out for years on end, and how this can be kept at bay by being creative with a second project in spare time or on days "off". I'm pretty confident that PLFC is better off because of your secondary outlet.

      Good luck going forward!

    30. Paul Hamilton on

      "Our first priority is to finish the level editor and send to backers a preview build as soon as possible." - As Soon As Possible sounds great, I'm gagging to play the beta! What exactly does ASAP approximate to you though? :)

    31. Missing avatar

      Gerald Buttinger on

      i must also admit to be rather flabbergasted right now.

      > About keeping you informed, we posted about this since november of last year.

      i just browsed through some of the updates, and i could only find some bits and pieces of imformation regarding the new programmer inside updates, whose titles suggested something completely else.

      e.g. in "1 Year on earth!" (Nov 2014) you write about the loss of the programmer for the first time in a small paragraph amongst many other infos. in "New player has arrived + designing a scene" (Dez 2014) there is a small mentioning of "...game’s code has been started from scratch...".

      i cound not find any definite info before this update here, that "a year of development [goes] to the trash".

      don't you think such a drastic and important information would have deserved a dedicated and extensive update on it's own called "Loss of programmer costs us 1 year of development" a long time ago?! especially if you "think that transparency is key"?!

      for me, this is quite a loss of confidence. this info coming with asking support for a new kickstarter-project looks even more strange to me - no matter if it's tabletop or digital - it means work nonetheless.

      but no matter what the influence of GOTY over PL is or was, asking people to back a second project, when the first one is long from being finished, long overdue, and seemingly in (rather uncommunicated) trouble imho just sends out the wrong signal.

    32. Missing avatar

      saluk on

      As what's missing in PL is code, and the tabletop game contains none, I don't see too much of a conflict of interest here - beyond the usual grey area of asking for money when the project you have previously asked for money for is not yet complete.

      I think people would be less upset if you would have until now been more open about the state of development of Paradise Lost. Maybe you hold back thinking that we would not be interested in technical things, or perhaps the people who write the updates are not really qualified to discuss them, and the programmer may not be that well versed in writing about what he is doing? It's just really hard to follow a game project where 80% of the updates are about how you redrew the sprites yet again.

      We don't want to hear about the sprites being redrawn. We don't want to hear about other projects you are working on. (Well, we do want to know about it, but we don't want that to be the focus of two updates on PL!) If coding is stumbling - we want to hear about it! We want to hear about the section of the lab you designed and had to take out of the game, because some gameplay feature wasn't popping the way you hoped it would. We want to hear about how you had to redo the pathfinding algorithms for the third time, because performance became an issue. We want to hear about how the extra frames in some of the new sprites introduced a weird flickering bug that the programmer is trying to fix.

      We don't need to see a polished game - we need to see that a game is really and truly being worked on. And you haven't done a great job of handling that during this problematic time as the game is delayed. Some of us may even be programmers, and have ideas or resources we could provide when you bring up a problem area. Who knows.

    33. Asthree Works 2-time creator on

      > Gameplay material <
      For everyone concerned about gameplay material of Paradise Lost, next update we’ll publish a video with real gameplay, so you can see that the updates are not smoke and mirrors :-)

      @Jorlinn on Linux
      We’ve learned from our mistakes and have everything contract-verified, so don’t worry about more code lost or anything like that. Now everything made for Paradise Lost is propriety of Asthree Works. Thanks for your advice.

      @J.L. @Jehren @Justin Vierra @Stephen Rosebaugh-Nordan
      Thanks to all of you for your understanding and for helping us calm the waters. We’ll do our best to not let you down with Paradise Lost. Promise.

      @Chris Thornett
      for the moment we want to stay completely independent. Anything can happen in the future, but for now we prefer to continue this way. Nevertheless we appreciate your concern and take note from every comment.

      @Ignacio de Lucas Rodrigo
      We let the code go because we didn’t have time or more resources to waste on legal matters. I know it was a hard choice to make, but that’s how things happened to be. About keeping you informed, we posted about this since november of last year.
      We are focused on the progress of Paradise Lost and told everyone that the other game was made in spare time. Don’t want to sound rude at all (is the least thing I want to be with all of you that helped us make PLFC a reality) but it seems like we are not allowed to do anything outside development hours; or we haven’t been honest to you every update, wich was the completely opposite.

    34. Missing avatar

      Weltall Zero on

      As a fellow Spaniard and software engineer, I think you've made two huge mistakes that are going to damage your reputation irrevocably.
      1) You say that you chose to let the old programmer take all of the code with him rather than face a legal battle. This is an easy choice for you to make, because that code was funded by others (us). Essentially you have traded our money for your peace of mind.
      2) Pitching a second Kickstarter, considering the current state of the original one, and justifying it as being "mostly done", is downright offensive on two levels: on one hand, you should be assuring everyone that you're 100% dedicated to Paradise Lost, but worse, not only are you going to divert resources (most prominently, again, our money) to this, you have actually been doing so for a while without telling anyone.

    35. Stephen Rosebaugh-Nordan on

      Ehhhhh, I've dealt with shadier projects. You guys at least have assets and have shown gameplay footage and work is being done, rather than Midora...which I am still kicking myself for backing. This isn't the best olive branch, Legend of Iya's creator gave two free games to his backers as apologies for delays, but I get you guys are just trying to make some money off what you had fun making to keep from burning out. Your card game doesn't look to be my thing, but I've still got faith, is my point. Lots of people are becoming jaded by kickstarter, but hell, I've waited through longer delays for early access games or other titles I really loved. I'll wait this one out too.

      So long as I get my game, everything's cool and I understand, being a writer, that...yeah, sometimes you do need a creative outlet for stuff to not burn out...and if you've made something good, you oughta get paid for it.

    36. Missing avatar

      Bartosz Adamski on

      It's been almost two years guys. Instead of getting us a demo to play or something, you're starting another kickstarter. Not cool...

    37. Nick Grugin on

      Just finish Paradise Lost.

      I know that's easier said then done, I know you lost a person and had to let go of the code, I know you have limited funding but just focus on the game.

      Asking people to have faith in another KS campaign is a big ask.

      Prove you can get the first one done then maybe but at this point I can't support this campaign based on this one's track record. It'd be an extremely bad investment.

      That there is no actual gameplay posted this far into the development process makes me seriously question if this project will ever get done. I hope you all prove me wrong, I really do.

    38. jorlinn on Linux on

      Hmm, thanks for being honest, but please be sure to clearly state that anything at all hat the programmer makes (and anyone working for your company for that matter!) during his time with you will be property of the company rather than that of the programmer.
      Any code beside that should not be included in the project as it will be a liability, except for properly licensed libraries ( if necessary). A hard lesson learnt.
      Don't get waylaid by proprietary libraries that you do not have rights for.
      Set up a proper contract, have that contract verified by an external party, versed in relevant laws, who is *not involved with the project*. Make sure rights and obligations are clearly stated therein.
      I will not invest any more money in your future projects until this is straightened out.
      You need someone outside your team that keeps tabs on your resources, human, time and finance. Someone without rosy glasses.
      The artwork still looks stunning, keep up the good work, but don't get lost in the details.
      The role described above will save you from those pitfalls in the future. It will cost you money, but if (s)he is any good at the job, you will eventually save money in the process.
      Good luck with the project. You'll need it.

    39. Chris Thornett on

      No biggie, it's just a card game. Sounds to me that you've learnt a valuable lesson about contracts and making sure you own the rights to people's contributions to the game. Hope you do manage to complete the game. It seems to me you might need to reach out for help from an incubator or publisher. You've all clearly got the creative talent, but I wonder if someone, like Team 17, could help you with the organisational/process side. All the best!

    40. Ryan Gadsby
      Superbacker
      on

      When I said your "poor replacement" I wasn't referring to his level of quality, but rather the poor situation he inherited by joining the project (i.e, "that poor guy has to deal with such incompetent managers").

      Your statement does little else to help the case that you shouldn't be trusted with any additional funding for this or other projects - you decided not to pursue the issue losing a year's worth of code? That sounds like utter insanity.

      There has not been a substantial update to this project in a very long time. A little bit of pixel art, but a year past the delivery date and you don't even have a demo. Constant updates? Are you joking?? Two in the past month because you want to advertise your new project, but before that you haven't even been averaging 1 a month, and most of those updates contained no more meaningful info about the state of the game. It is increasingly obvious that this game will be added to the growing list of video game projects on Kickstarter that fail outright after funding due to terrible management of backer funds.

    41. J.L. on

      I have backed projects on here that ended up going nowhere, but I never have gotten that feeling from you guys, so keep at it and make that dream come true. Live and learn, for if we stop learning we surely have stopped living.

      Let's sow the seed of a plant-y future and not reap the tears of the past that cannot be undo no matter the amount of woes sung over it. (c:

    42. Jehren on

      People have short memories. Fran, the old coder, left almost a year ago (see Update 31) and Carlos, the new coder, came on about a month later (see Update 32). It was stated that he was starting from scratch in the very next update and that he had already gotten past some of the old problems Fran had got caught on. All of this was transparently communicated as it was happening. You've had plenty of time to freak out about it.

      A reminder that the second project is a cute little CARD GAME. I don't mean to imply that card games do not take work (they definitely do), but it is not like they are starting a second pc game. It is entirely plausible that its creation is exactly as stated: a fun distraction that started in their off time that turned into something more, with the development already completed at this point. Putting it into production will almost certainly take some time away from Paradise Lost (if you're in a strict nine-to-five or all-time-must-be-spent mindset), but the statement that "it won’t have a negative impact" is most likely true.

    43. Imaria on

      Here's the longest olive branch I can extend:

      Could you post ANY gameplay? A small GIF or video, something to convince skeptics like myself that Paradise Lost actually IS progressing beyond just small sprites?

      The backlash is based on two things: there has been huge wait time, and NO evidence of progress. You can't turn back the clock and fix the first problem, but you COULD prove the second wrong. Hopefully.

    44. Missing avatar

      Justin Vierra on

      I don't have much faith either, but I'm trying to stay positive. Maybe things will turn out OK, and the art certainly looks great, but zero gameplay after this long in development is pretty sad. I hope the next update comes soon.

      I wish the team all the luck with their new Kickstarter, and maybe the additional funds will help Paradise Lost!

    45. Asthree Works 2-time creator on

      @David Desjardin @Neal Tambe Thanks for your support and kind words :)
      We promise to not let you down with Paradise Lost.

    46. Asthree Works 2-time creator on

      @Brendan McLeod we posted several times about the programmer problem. We didn’t want to have ANY legal issues with the previous partner so we decided to let go all the code. It was a hard decision to make but we didn’t want something similar with the mess happened to Phil Fish on FEZ.

      @Ryan Gadsby don’t want to be rude but I think that you are missing the point with few things:
      - We preferred to lose the code to not have legal issues with our previous partner about intellectual property. Things are WAY more difficult from this side of the line pal, trust us.
      - You say that this game is not going to ship. Then what’s the point to make constant updates about the work process and the things we made?
      - GOTY is not a game made of mock ups, it is an already made that did not take too much time to be made for us. We are two designers doing static illustrations, nothing to do with the hundreds of frames that we are used to make every day by only one person.
      - I think that is very rude of you to call our programmer a “poor replacement”. Manners maketh man.

    47. David Desjardin on

      I have infinitely more faith in you guys following through with this project than other "delayed" (ie. infinitely) projects I've backed *cough* Midora *cough*, because unlike some other projects, you guys at least have frequent updates that let us know you're still around.

      So, while folks like Ryan are already jumpy and looking for possible refunds since you're a year behind on devlopment, I'm going to wait patiently and let it ride....

      ...please don't prove me wrong. I can't take another disappointment on a game I'm eager to play.

    48. Ryan Gadsby
      Superbacker
      on

      Let's assume you guys are being 100% forthright here.

      Why would losing the lead (and from the sounds of things, only) programmer cause you to lose a year's worth of code? Any sane development project isn't going to let the programmers own the code they write - it would have been the property of your company. Letting him leave (or fire him? It's not really clear from the update) and taking all the code with him is mismanagement of colossal scale. It's obvious from that alone that this game would never ship, and it's now clear to me why we've only seen pixel art updates with zero substantial gameplay, a year past your initial due date. I'm going to see what I can do about getting a chargeback or refund.

      Beyond that, with the abysmal state this game is in, launching another kickstarter is pretty much a slap in the face. "Yeah, we screwed up with your money before, but hey, here's this card game with mockups that clearly cost a fair amount of time to create, but we totally did it in our 'spare time' and are working on PLFC 10 hours a day 8 days a week!" How stupid do you think your backers are? It's obvious that your poor replacement programmer is having issues building the game from scratch after gross mismanagement of the project before he joined, and all the non-technical people on the project are left with nothing to do but crap like GOTY. Only a fool would trust you with more money at this point, and shame on you for trying to run a second kickstarter when your first one is a year behind schedule and no end in sight.

    49. Imaria on

      The assurance that it won't take more time because it's "already done" isn't the positive spin you're hoping for. Instead, it's saying "we lost a YEAR of development time, but we've ALREADY been spending time on this unrelated card game."

      Your organizational skills are a major concern, and due to that I can't trust you with any more of my money. I will not be supporting this project.

    50. Neal Tambe on

      Good luck on the new kickstarter! And good idea to not release any release dates, since all Kickstarters get delayed... but did I just read a year from now?

      @Brendan I believe they had an update a long time ago explaining a bit of what happened, but I may be mistaken.