by Mythic Games, Inc.
@Jeffry Sorry for the delay, I'm coming on this post rarely and missed your message. In French, I keep regular updates on this thread: http://www.black-book-editions.fr/forums.php…
I also try to keep the discord up to date on those in a less informal way. But you should have some updates about the RPG here shortly.
Where can one look to see updates on the tabletop RPG part of this kickstarter?
@MAUGER The village adds buildings, trees, and river tiles, as well as overlays and some generic minis. Siege give you more walls so that you can have a scene inside a fortified city (without it having to be a siege scene, could be a fight scene in a back alley near the walls, for example). The rpg scenarios are not set yet, so I cannot tell if some of those would directly be useful or not. It was really just an opinion based on the kind of scenes I would think of (and would setup) as a GM :)
@Neil & Thomas
Thanks for your answer and translation !
About Muslims / Jewish / Orthodox components in JoA rpg...
If you plan to play muslim an older french rpg take place in cruisads with templars : this is miles christi, only 2 expansion books exists, one is called Assassins and is very interesting because you can create arabic player caracters (fighting or dealing with templars). Moreover they list angels and add gameplay based on muslims believes. A lot of things is shared with Joan of Arc that's why I quote this rpg. Take into account all mulsim / jewish faith and religion is challenging but it is as well an opportunity for JoA to create a future expansion. The strenght of miles christi was to create moral dilemmas based on duty and religion without take sides : good and evil could be part of any religion. In this rpg any action or choise could be right or wrong depending the point of view of the crusader's duty to fight against paganism or monk principles of life (like nonviolence, humility, chastity, justice, wisdom, sobriety...). Miles christi set out the main humain aspects about good and devil and consequences of your actions... Oftentimes with dilemnas about your duties intermixed with both personnal issues and religious war situations.
Pendagron as well was quite an historical approach with religion/duty personnal dilmnas. This is also a very good inspiration about Christians vs others believes (as paganism) with a blend of holy grail and myths. Of course JoA is not at all like these two games that I quoted (or In Nomine Satanis / Magna Veritas Rpg), but good and devil is as well very central in the BG.
If a future Mythic game deal with Cruisads then other religions should be more included "in the gameplay itselft". For JoA, historical/christian stories seems (to me) the main and best choice...
To create scenarios you could inspire yourselves with all the very good stories of Ellis Peters. Is main character Brother Cadfael solve murder and myteries with a great realistic medieval background.
About the Village
I don't know if the craft system and minis will be so usefull for the rpg, even for JoA boardgame.
It's quite expansive to me for the use, I feel like if there is a lack of non player characters inside.
But I will be very interested if you explain me more in what you think that could be usefull.
Will the 3 scenario campain of the booklet take place in castles ? If not I guess that we could anyway have a great use of siege in rpg. However, many rpg scenarios won't need it correct ?
@Thomas Robert. Thanks. To be fair, Jewish characters really wouldn't make much sense here because they really weren't actors on the global stage at all at this point. Most were stuck in trade because of the usury laws.
Muslims, on the other hand, were clearly very active on the geopolitical landscape (hence the Ottoman figures). I could totally understand, though, not wanting to shoehorn a Muslim character into a Christian theological context because that really wouldn't work.
Forced conversion would be an interesting background story but you have to be very careful because most forced converts from Judaism continued their Judaism in secret. (And their descendants hundreds of years later are the Crypto-Jews who are currently exploring returning to Judaism). They certainly would not have been bound to a Christian system of heaven and hell and would not have held any value to Christian saints of theological concepts. However, there is Gan Eden and Gehinnom which are similar, and I can certainly help with that (being a Rabbi and all). Only a few generations later did forced converts start believing in Christianity, but that was only when they didn't know that they had Jewish ancestry, which essentially made them Christians.
I'll email you as soon as the Kickstarter campaign is over in order to help, assuming you want help.
@Neil We plan to have PC being Christians. Most of the adjustments we're doing on the alignment/morality part of the system is based on middle-age christianity, and I suspect it would feel out of place for a muslim or jewish character. Even for orthodox christians, there might be some slight differences we won't be aware of but that should be minor.
Still the character could come from jewish or muslim background, as they were very much present in Europe at the time (in Granada and around Constantinople for the muslims, in most of the communities for the jewish). We will provide stats for those kind of characters. But they would have to have been christened at some point though, which can give interesting background for the character : forced conversion, or by choice ?
@Thomas Robert: Oooh, I just spotted something else interesting at the end of your piece. You can play people from all across Europe. Does that mean Christians from all across Europe? If we're heading into the Ottoman Empire does that mean players can be Muslims as well?
As you can tell, I'm REALLY fascinated by an RPG based in real-world religion.
Short translation of my french message to MAUGER :
> He was asking whether we had historic experts or not in the team.
Patrick Receveur, author of some of the scenarios of the boardgame, is working in direct contact with the RPG design team, and we count on him to be our "expert". But we also do a lot of our own documentation presently.
> What of the historical aspect of the background and the fantasy elements compared
> to regular D&D worlds ?
Our intent is not to create a full-fledge background for a whole new world, but to stick to historical reality whenever possible, as well as known "fantastic" or religious sources (like the Apocalypse of John). Daily life and "Powers that be" chapters should be really close to reality, not inventions.
Of course, we will have to make compromises, because of the fantastic elements, but also because of the natural "tradeoffs" between having an historical context and enjoying a good game. Our goal is to have a game that allows having fun in a realistic setting.
> He was saying he's not a huge fan of DnD system and settings...
To which I answered we do not plan to deliver a "DnD during the Hundred Years War" game, but a really different approach, and an original game experience, largely based on the christian mythology and the events of that time.
>.. but was interested by the approach of having the large scale battles handled by the
> boardgame, and was asking if we had news about that.
To which I answered that we were still talking about that aspect of the rules (we're not as advanced on this aspect as we're on other). But even if in the different proposals, some details differ, we're all on the same basic page : we all feel it would be a huge mistake not to do it, and we're not even imagining the game without it. It's just about finding a way to do it so that it's simple enough, flexible enough and interesting enough so that it can please "pure roleplayers" and boardgamers alike (not a small challenge :).
> Finally he was asking if in my opinion Siege or Apocalypse was the best add-on for the RPG.
As I don't know the full content of the Apocalypse add-on yet, I can't say for sure. But as far as I'm concerned, and given the fact that I plan to use the rpg as a realistic context with a touch of fantastic, I answered that the Village, Ars Nova and Siege add-ons were the most interesting in my case.
(I'll answer in French, but english translation follows)
@MAUGER Pascal est un connaisseur et est l'auteur du jeu de plateau. Patrick Receveur travaille en contact direct avec l'équipe de développement du jdr est aussi un fin connaisseur de la période. De notre côté, nous sommes en train de nous documenter pour combler les éventuelles lacunes. Cela dit, pour le background, notre intention est de "créer" aussi peu que possible, et je pense que deux sources principales nous animerons : l'Histoire elle-même, et l'Apocalypse selon Jean (et interprétations). Nous ne pensons pas nous éloigner beaucoup de la réalité. Et les chapitres sur la vie quotidienne ou les pouvoirs en place seront fortement réalistes.
Concernant l'immersion, je fais partie (ainsi que mes comparses je pense) de ceux qui pensent que l'Histoire est au moins aussi intéressante qu'un Game of Thrones, donc je ne me fais pas de soucis sur cet aspect des choses.
Après, il faut comprendre qu'il y a toujours un compromis dans un jdr, celui de la jouabilité et de l'amusement. Notre intension est de proposer un univers réaliste et amusant.
Par rapport à l'OGL et à la fantasy "à la D&D", nous ne visons vraiment pas un "D&D pendant la Guerre de cent ans", mais un jeu et une ambiance spécifiques, baignant vraiment dans le mysticisme chrétien de l'époque.
Concernant le combat de masse et l'utilisation du mode bataille, c'est encore en discussions, mais même si l'implémentation que chacun propose diverge un peu, nous sommes tous sur la même longueur d'onde sur le principal, et nous n'imaginons pas le jeu sans cet aspect. Nous cherchons simplement une façon de le faire qui soit assez souple et intéressante pour contenter les "purs rôlistes" ou ceux qui veulent utiliser le jeu de plateau.
Enfin, entre Siege et Apocalypse ? Je ne connais pas le contenu exact de l'extension annoncée demain. Cela dit, je sais que personnellement, je compte mener le jeu plutôt en approche "réaliste teintée de fantastique", et dans ce cadre, c'est plutôt le Village, Ars Nova et Siege qui m'intéressent. Mais c'est une opinion toute personnelle :)
Merci pour votre intérêt pour le jeu !
@ Thomas :
Allez vous avoir des experts en histoire pour aider à créer un vrai bg inspiré (je pense à miles christi) qui sera immersif et jouable ?
Je joue presque plus et j'ai vraiment du mal avec D&D univers et système. Par contre le potentiel du rpg et surtout la perspective que le système soit utilisable avec le bataille mode est ma principale motivation. Des news la dessus ? Merci d avance de ne pas hésiter à convaincre les indécis comme moi au budget serré. Enfin à choisir entre siège et le dernier gros add-on apocalypse à venir plain de fantastique tu penses que lequel est le plus incontournable pour le rpg ? Merci pour votre réponse et pour votre travail.
Oooh. I just found this. Historical records of people in the Middle Ages who openly rejected the Church or God:
Not including this to have an argument, but to just try to help the game along.
Descartes wasn't a bandit robbing people left and right!
Ultimately, we don't know what people believed so you're totally free to do what you wish theologically. I just hope that there is real balance between making "good" and "bad" choices so that the PCs aren't guided. Happy to help with that if you want. Very excited.
I'd tend to agree with Erestor there. Even Descartes, a century and half later, did not at any point challenge the existence of God. On the contrary.
I think the belief in the existence of God was ingrained in everybody in Europe during the Middle-Ages. Doesn't mean they were devout (in the sense of following the tenants of the church and the daily devotions), or good (and I dare say some were certainly devout AND bad people). But the fear of God and the after-life was much certainly one of the obsessions of everybody, whatever their origins or social standing.
@Neil Amswych :"I'm not at all convinced that all bandits would have been God-fearing folk. The idea that everyone in the Middle Ages was really devout seems to me to be more of a projection from modernity."
I would say the opposite : the projection from modernity is that people could have been godless. The Inquisition did not care if people believed or not - actually people did - but if they properly believed the right way.
Wow, this is so interesting. I wonder how much this depends on what we believe people actually believed. Thankfully, the subjectivity here gives you breadth for creativity. I like the idea of short-term gain and long-term loss vs long-term gain. But shouldn't there be short-term loss for being good? For example, if one follows Matthew 5, then being good means allowing someone to strike you without retaliation (5:39), having them take your clothes (5:40), to travel long distances out of your way (5:41) or giving anything of yours that is asked (5:42). All these things could easily be considered short-term loss for long-term gain.
Without that balance, the games risks skewing towards players being good but patient. With that balance, it means they have real choices to make because every choice has the potential of gain and loss.
Taking this further, players might be able to power up if they eschew material reward and get a higher level or some transcendence, but the player who refuses to give money to others and who therefore gains wealth can always "power up" by hiring mercenaries.
Paying for indulgences is a really interesting thing to add. You don't want players just running to church all the time because that's not an appealing RPG. The question with indulgences is whether or not they're actually effective, or whether they simply line the church's coffers. Just because something makes you FEEL good, doesn't mean it is actually good.
I'm not at all convinced that all bandits would have been God-fearing folk. The idea that everyone in the Middle Ages was really devout seems to me to be more of a projection from modernity. We know, for example, that back in Biblical times everyone was meant to engage in pilgrimages to Jerusalem, but not everyone did. People have farms to attend to, mouths to feed, etc. I'd be more intrigued to explore Godless characters in a devout world. That doesn't mean a Bandit must be Godless - a Robin-Hood could certainly be devout and believe they're being a bandit for good reason. I certainly agree with the idea of people being bandits because of bad luck. But also some people are just bad. Not evil theologically speaking, but they just only care for the flesh. Perhaps that's more the short-term gain you were talking about.
Anyway, as you can see I'm totally enthralled by this. As a Rabbi and a gamer, I would be happy to assist with this privately (I'll sign an NDA if you want).
@Neil "So, I'm really intrigued about how Bandits etc. work in this RPG, because a Bandit doesn't care about heaven or hell or redemption."
I would say there could be a long discussion about this assumption. I dare say I think everybody cared at the time about that, in one way or another. Law and morality have always been a very subjective thing.
So, on how we're going to handle this in the RPG. There are still a lot of details to be worked on, and all I'm gonna write is still subject to changes as we develop and test our ideas. But the core we'll try to implement is "Being bad will give you an immediate reward but a long-term loss, being good will give you a long-term win" (please note that "being bad" and "being good" in this context is always referring to the Christian point of view, so that being good is following your church sacraments, dogmas and devotions. We in no way plan to give an absolute definition of Good or Evil and we'll avoid any personal judgements at all cost)
One of the way we can do that is by providing experience for "being good", so that your character evolves more quickly to higher levels. Another way we'll try to do that is via a "transcendence" mechanism where you get additional powers from a patron (holy or unholy) when you act particularly good or evil. Evil powers being more efficient or attractive, but always coming for a price.
And yes, there might be some cases where the ways of "being good" seem a bit..hypocritical. Like going multiple times to the mass, or paying for indulgences. But that's how we want it, because it is particularly fitting for this time period, as we're at the crossroads for the christian church, with more and more groups and individuals protesting against the whole nature of its power and influence (the trade of indulgences will be one of the root cause for the whole religion wars of the following centuries).
Now coming back to your bandits : in most cases, I think they will be Neutral. Meaning they are regular God-fearing folks, brought to this outlaw life by a string of bad luck or some past events, but still living with the idea that they're not *that* bad. They won't be evil in the sense that they don't necessarily embrace the devil's schemes or actions. Most of the NPC will be in the same case. Only exceptional individuals (including the PC) will have a broader spectrum of choice between Good and Evil and will be able, by their actions, to attract the attention of holy or unholy patrons.
On reflection, now I'm even more intrigued about this RPG.
"One of the key themes in the game will be the salvation of the soul of each character, and their ability to resist temptation. Or, if they fail, a chance for redemption. The alignment system from the OGL 5e ruleset will be replaced by a Salvation/Damnation meter, mirroring the board game possibility of being Neutral, Good, or Evil."
I really want to know more about this. The resisting of temptation suggests that everyone has a modicum of good in them (because to an evil player, resisting temptation is nonsensical, because you give in to your temptation). But if everyone is role playing to avoid giving in to temptation then that's not so interesting, because they know that to get XP they don't have much of a choice. "There's a sexy woman in front of you and she calls you over." "Nooooop, I'll take the XP, thanks." That's clearly unworkable in an RPG.
So, I'm really intrigued about how Bandits etc. work in this RPG, because a Bandit doesn't care about heaven or hell or redemption.
If you're able to fill in more, I'd really appreciate it. I'm deeply intrigued by how different this has the potential to be.
Thanks Joerg for the reference. I was thinking about doing it while coming back from work :) Just a clarification for those of you who would have no past experience with the SRD and its content : there's a lot there that you could just ignore. If you want to read about the core of the system and things that will still be totally valid in JoA RPG, I advise to go for "Using Ability scores" and movement / combat rules. That would mean from page 76 to 99.
for all those people interested in the standard version of D&D5th as a help to understand the game system BBE is basing their rules on, just google for D&D 5 SRD (System Reference Document)
you can either read online or download a pdf from Wizards of the Coast (the publisher for D&D) that includes the free basic rules for D&D
Thank you, both.
I must say that the religious aspect of the RPG particularly appeals to me, despite the fact that I am an avid follower of a differing religion. The idea of gaining experience while resisting temptation from the Devil is really interesting, as well as the usual straightforward combat.
Certainly if I use minis they'll be 15mm - if I'm getting a shed load of minis then I'm not going to a different scale for the RPG! Certainly, warriors will have an advantage! I know that women will not be hugely represented because of their role in society at the time, but I do hope we might see one or two more to create variety there.
@Neil Amswych 1/ Concerning the minis, there won't be RPG dedicated minis, so any minis would have to come from the boardgame or similar scale minis from other sources. Given the fact JoA provides a number of miniatures of non-warrior type (apothecary, monks, etc.), I think you will have a broad enough choice for the PCs. Warrior PCs will have a slight advantage in spectrum.
2/ Leveling up is rather straightforward, and not very different from all past editions of the game. In the basic ruleset, most of it comes from fighting opponents or overcoming challenges, and levelling up gives you new aptitudes or strengths. We will add up some aspects to that, based on christian morals. Meaning you will also gain experience when playing on the virtues and vices of your character, when resisting temptation, when confronting Satan or unholy stuff, etc.
3/ The plan is always to expand as much as possible. But it always depend on the success of the core game and other parameters us humble authors have practically no control of. :)
@Neil Amswych - unfortunately I can't be a lot of help.
Thomas Robert (just below this) is probably a better chap to answer the question about levelling up and expansion modules as I believe he's working on it. I don't know how the 5e system works. I assume it's basically that. There must be a review of it that would explain.
Miniatures for PCs would depend on the scale. If you stick with Legendary scale then you have all of the hundreds of minis in the set. There is quite a variety, and if you take them out of the context of a battle, then many of them could be a PC.
There are other companies that make miniatures in a similar scale too, though I don't think they are generally as well sculpted.
If you use 28mm or 32mm, you have a wide choice too. It's a historical period, so there is a selection from many companies. Perry Miniatures would be my recommendation as a starting point, They have a gorgeous 28mm range of Hundred years' War figures.
The Voice in Her Head
@Geoff Watson Why OGL 5e ? There are many reasons, including past expertise on this as Julien said before, economy of time and effort compared to developing and testing a new system. It's also about reaching to as many RPG players as possible, especially in US/Canada.
But in the end, the main reason is we find the OGL 5e to be :
- simple enough so that it can bring more boardgamers into the rpg hobby.
- flexible enough so that you can have a grim fantasy type of setting.
- interesting enough so that we can write a game we would enjoy playing.
- played enough around the world so that there's a good chance to have a community building around this particular instance of the game, and possibly other material usable for GMs interested in that.
In the end, you're right, there are other systems that could have been adapted. And I'm 100% sure a good game could have been designed and written based on those, or even a new dedicated system. We will never pretend that was the only choice available and / or possible. I simply hope that in the end, we will prove you wrong on the fact that OGL 5e was a wrong choice :)
@RUSL - I don't know what amount of additional art there will be. Some. They explain above a bit about the extra background topics they will cover. I think there will be quite a lot more background detail, as befits the different level of game.
@Geoff Watson - I have no idea why they chose that rules set. BBE usually offer their games as pdfs, and so I expect this to happen after the backers have received their physical copies.
@Rob Sparks - I'm sure you can play the RPG as a 5 player game.
Perhaps a silly question, but does this in essence make the game more than 4 players? We have a regular group of 5 players, all of which have been interesting in dabbling in tabletop RPGs, so may be ideal.
I was going to miss out on a number of the add-ons but this RPG could convince me to just go crazy and get the lot so that the world is super rich. However, in terms of RPGs I've only ever played the original D&D (as in, the red book where Elf and Dwarf were character classes instead of actual races). So we didn't use minis back then.
If I am to use this as the basis for a new RPG, I think I need...
1) to know that there's a wide variety of minis that could be used for the PCs,
2) to know how characters would level up,
3) is the plan to expand this RPG into other modules, etc.?
I was at the Majestic level before this and I will stay at Majestic level. I'm not a roleplayer.
But those people who play RPGs I hope you like this offer. The book and the setting looks interesting for a RPG.
There are some light roleplay elements in many of the missions, but the boardgame was never intended to be a fullblown pen-and-paper RPG. I never saw it advertised as such anywhere...
The actual RPG is different game altogether that can optionally use miniatures and map pieces from the boardgame.
There is no boardgame gameplay locked off if you do not buy the RPG. They are two separate games.
@Adrienhb I was expecting the RP component to be a main part of the game. My pledge hinged partially on that. Part of the point of kickstarter is marketing. Communicating what I like and don't like is part of the process.
If you don't like that... oh well.
@Azrael: Oh I do hope you're correct :D
Hello. I'm, with Thom, one of the authors for this RPG. We hear completely the remarks about better system existing for that kind of mood.
Having already worked on a very low fantasy setting with no magic (if only for rituals) on a SRD5/D&D5 basis for black book editions, my experience tells me that it is possible to have simple, gritty et low power feeling with the basics set by the SRD5. We strongly believe that we could make a Joan of Arc RPG wich will ecompass all of the aspects of the board games (for those which are appropriate to the RPG). So will we do our best.
I'm with Chris, thrilled to see a matching RPG. Also agree with Geoff, that better systems exist for the game world you've shown us.
The bestiary of the role-playing game will be epic, some creatures will be represented for the first time after centuries of sleep and by the incomparable talent of the artists of Mythic Games. What to say is just a must have !
William, there is not a single reason why you should get the PDF of the rpg for free if you can get it as a paid expansion. If they were giving it out no one would buy the book, and the rpg editors would get 0€. So stop dreaming, grow up and either buy or not the rpg, but don't complain!
For the record, this add on really secures my pledge. A lot of people have doubt in this product and aren’t interested, but to me this adds a lot of value.
They’re making it a beautiful hardcover edition, in tune with other role playing editions
They’re expanding on lore that will provide depth to your standard game if you read it, even without the intent of RPG
It gives you a flexible use of all of the miniatures for to play in larger groups, or groups who you aren’t convinced would pick up a complex game like JOA quickly.
I hope that all of the content from this will be available as a PDF to all paid backers... otherwise... well... that's just a lot of actual game play locked off.
I think I see War
I'm sure Mythic has let those decisions be made by Black Book Editions. To be fair to them, they should have a handle on what ruleset is best and why.
I HATE you guys soooo much right now >< (My wallet!!!)
Just kidding. This is an utterly amazing kickstarter. A tabletop historical/fantasy war game WITH an RPG?!
aka song of ice and fire by example
Why D&D 5e? There are much better systems for no/low magic settings.
D&D (except for 4th edition) puts way too much emphasis on spellcaster PCs.
The RPG sounds interesting, but not $60 interesting. Will it be available as a PDF?
A historical medieval RPG ! Such an awesome add-on !
Not for me :)
So I switch from legendary to majestic and save $40 on the all-in boardgame pledge.
What would be interesting is if the miniature battles could impact your RPG game or your RPG could have impact in your miniature battle making them linked in some way. This would be similar to how Kings of War - Vanguard is expected to work.
How about the converse question: "Will the RPG be useful for the board game?" How much artwork, historical background, character background, etc. will be included that we wouldn't get just from the board game?
How do they say “meh” in French?
The artwork as ever amazes - the mounted Joan somehow combines charisma, heroism and (maybe a bit chauvenistic on my part) the need to protect her. I can see why an army would have followed her into Hell if need be. I don't think we have seen the evil rider before - very sinister. great stuff guys but the talent of the artists makes me feel ashamed at mine own inadequacy
Damn, this sounds interesting. I had hoped not to like it, cause I'm already spending a lot. But you deceived me in that.