Kickstarter

Creator Threemoons on April 12

Any movement on this whatsoever? I think that it's time to make a decision....

Creator Kenn Christianson on March 17

First, start with a couple of comments:

Kudos to the Board for their admirable efforts in stepping in to try to bring this project to completion.

I would like to give Schuyler a lot of credit - that is assuming his posts are honest and truthful - or
as best his mental state could allow. I found his admission to about his hospital stay and his mental state (update 71, july 2, 2012 and there abouts) to be very moving. I sincerely wish him the best.

Last, sorry for the length of this comment. I've been tracking this project for a while, so I guess I saved up a few comments!

Perspective

I backed this project to get a set of picks for my son's 15th birthday. He is now over 17 yrs old.

I bought the $20 Pledge level so I can't really claim to be seriously impacted by the failure of this project. And I know that my view with $20 pledge is very different from those at higher levels, still....

My first response to the present situation with this project is, as a mere $20 backer, to either forgive the obligation or, if possible, agree to pay the same amount again for the delivery of the picks in my pledge level. Either way would ok with me.

But this project, after 100+ updates and 566 comments definitely generates a more mixed, complex response, maybe even in the Kubler-Ross response model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model)

------ DENIAL

"This project is sure taking a long time by he seems to have encountering problems with the picks and the materials that are not his fault. I am sure he will work it out and finish the project. "

------ ANGER

Now, not all Kickstarter projects are successful. Granted. Some run into unexpected problems with unexpected costs. Granted. For this project I think it is understandable that some amount of the funds were spent on designs and manufacturing trials that ultimately failed. That is acceptable (to me at least). That is part of the process. I would even say that is part of the Kickstarter experience to witness the bumps, setbacks, and detours and course corrections that happen from between idea and delivery ... and sometimes failure.

What is not acceptable is for project funds to be used on anything but the project.

It appears Schuyler used a significant portion of the $87,407 fund for unrelated personal use. (see Update #63 on 2/1/12 regarding finances, we paid for rent? health ins? Car repair? new laptop? etc) Not coincidentally the amount spent for non-project purposes likely equals or exceeds to $33,000 estimated completion cost (depending on how long we paid his rent). He treated this a free money. Part of me wants to demand that he get a loan and complete the project on the original terms (see Jon Kecks' prior update about www.prosper.com). He can consider the debt as a student loan as this has clearly been an education for him. Debts can be paid or forgiven but not ignored.

But, I admit, getting a loan for $33K is probably not going to happen.

------ BARGAINING

Here comes the current phase with the report from the board that it will take $33,000 to finish the project. Should we contribute? Should we pay again? Find new sponsors? Difficult to bargain when the primary party is absent from the discussion. Should Schuyler sell the pick design to a 3rd party? Could someone get a loan large enough to not only manufacture the picks needed but in extra ones that could be sold to help pay back the loan. Maybe Schuyler can offer all backers free-lifetime passes to any of his workshops?

------ DEPRESSION

Why should we be bargaining at all? We aren't at fault. It's hopeless. We should never have gotten to this point. Why or why did I fund this? I've been conned to giving someone free money. I am never going to fund another project again.

The comment post from Justin Eugene Evans on January 26 put it in perspective: he is basically saying that this was never rocket science. This is a relatively normal small-scale manufacturing project with typical issues that should have been resolvable long ago.

sigh....

------ ACCEPTANCE

In a slightly different take on the whole process, I have to confess that, for me, I have already received more that my $20 value. Admittedly, not in the form of picks but in, shall we way, entertainment. Following this project over the years through all the ups and down has been fascinating. The trials and tribulations to get the perfect design, the perfect metal and the manufacturing trials and errors was an insight into a world foreign to me. And the drama! Schuyler's alleged breakdown is a dramatic development worthy of any good story. Now add suspicion of misuse of funds and even fraud, the silence of the founder, and then the appearance of a board made up of good hearted folks intent on completing this project in any way possible - that is worthy of any plot line. I have spent $20 going to the movies or buying books and have received less lasting entertainment (and, please, I am not making light of Schuylers troubles...)

So, that is where I am today:

- I would love to get a set of picks as originally promised. I would even pay again if guaranteed.
- I would like to know that Schuyler is banned from starting another crowd funded project on Kickstarter or elsewhere.
- Part of me wants to know there was a punishment for misusing the funds... but, if Schuyler's updates have been truthful he seems to be getting karma payback already.
- I would like to award the board saint status for trying to complete a project they did not own.
- and last, if delivery is not possible, I would agree to close the project.

Creator Jon Keck on March 11

In response to the question of how things can move forward at this point. One option for coming up with the funding to do a production run, without asking for donations would be to use something like this:

http://www.prosper.com/

This would be particularly the case if the production run would provide many more picks than were needed to give the backers what is owed, because then they could be sold to help cover the loan in addition to what Schuyler is paying back.

Creator Glug on March 6

Any updates on the lock libraries?

Creator Shawn Jaggers on February 27

Any updates coming soon? Just curious.

Creator Jason Aller on February 11

@Mitchell, to update your address e-mail your name, old address, and new address to CHANGEDADDRESS@textfiles.com

Creator Mitchell on February 9

Does anyone know how to go about updating our address?

Creator Justin Eugene Evans on January 26

Do you all remember when this project began as an attempt to make superior lockpicks to those available on the market? Schyuler Towne's pitch to all of us was that he could make BETTER lock picks. Since then:

1.) He spent the money on himself.
2.) He became a minor celebrity within lockpick circles.
3.) He attended conferences, got a book deal and focused on other things other than his lock picks project.
4.) Then he either had a real nervous breakdown or feigned it. We'll never know the truth.
5.) And some of his buddies bailed him out...by making ordinary, run-of-the-mill lockpicks.

And to this day we're told the problem was that he couldn't handle the level of success. However, I work in manufacturing. This is a load of crap. More money and more orders allows one to scale...and scale makes manufacturing easier, not harder.

None of us intended to back a multi-year boondoggle. Unless Schuyler Towne is declared mentally incompetent in a court of law he's still legally responsible to do this project properly. And instead we're getting his friends (who clearly are good people and motivated to help us...but are also incapable of delivering Schuyler's original promise.) who have spent months and are unable to get something that could be produced through three common manufacturing methods (stamping, water jet & acid etching) in a thousand factories across the globe.

This project is brain-dead simple. I offered to help Schuyler many times (back when this was only a few months behind schedule...and before it became clear he was either a flake or a fraud.) And I made the steps clear back then:

1.) Hire a Pro/E expert, preferably with a BSME or MSME, to take his illustrations and convert them into manufacture-ready Pro/E files. (approximate cost: $1,000.00 USD)
2.) Hire a second Pro/E expert to verify files (approximate cost: $250.00 USD)
3.) Solicit manufacturing facilities to produce prototypes (approximate cost: $1,000.00 USD.) In fact, if Schuyler went to TechShop (which has multiple locations across the country) he could have taken a waterjetting course and done this himself.
4.) Hire a facility that specializes in metal finishing. A pebble-finish is probably all that's necessary. Anodization might harm the behavior of the metal. Therefore the final product would probably be bare metal. (approximate cost: $500.00)
5.) Armed with the final prototypes that meet his approval and the Pro/E files Schuyler tours several companies capable of doing low-volume metal stamping. 1,159 backers is considered low volume. Particularly for a project like this.
6.) Negotiate terms. Use bids from competing firms to reduce price.
7.) Approve manufacturing. Stay in hotel and be on the factory floor for the 1-2 days it would take to manufacture these items.

That's it. That's all that was needed to finish this project. The entire project could have been done at a leisurely pace in less than three months. Instead, 2.5 years have passed. Since this project was taken over by Schuyler's friends it could have been finished TWICE. In the 2.5 years since we funded Schuyler this project could have been completed FIFTEEN TIMES.

And that is why I am angry and why any explanation is simply pathetic.

Creator Daniel Durante on December 25

Have not received my packages yet, hope everything is OK and my address has changed guys, please check the survey response :)

Creator Riq on December 22

Schuyler/Jason,

I sent you guys and address update when you were shipping the practice kits and I never heard back from you, nor did I receive my practice kit. I've since sent you one more message to update my address and I've yet to hear back from you once again. I would still like to receive my practice kit, and I would most certainly like to receive my picks at my new address. Please, guys - check your messages and get back to your backers - it's only fair!

Creator Mark Rennick on November 21

Well I got my practice kit today, (and have been playing with it all day....) Thanks!

Creator Threemoons on September 25, 2012

Note that KS has now changed its requirements regarding the production of physical goods:

http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/kickstarter-is-not-a-store

Also, they seem to have tweaked the FAQs regarding accountability:

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#Acco

Creator coolstream on September 19, 2012

Despite the address change I sent in the package was still sent to my previous address... Thankfully this was my parents house and I'm actually heading there soon so it turned out to be no big deal, but this is still a bit troubling. What steps should I take to ensure you have my most recent and updated address? Was there a specific format that the address change should have followed?

Creator PhillipG on September 18, 2012

Got my box with 3 locks and glass jar with pins; are the picks coming?

Creator Rus Wetherill on September 8, 2012

I have not received anything. My address has not changed. Any possibility I'll be seeing something before the two year anniversary of this project?

Creator Mark Rennick on September 8, 2012

Can we have a list of who was sent a practice Kit? or a short list of those who have not been sent one? Better yet just tell me if one was sent to me, so that I can enjoy the anticipation.

Creator Brian Willis on September 5, 2012

The most interesting part of their post on accountability is this - "Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill."

Creator Brian Willis on September 5, 2012

For everyone who was up in arms previously that their should be accountability, Kickstarter posted something about accountability on their blog after an interview on NPR. http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/accountability-on-kickstarter

Creator LocksmithArmy on September 3, 2012

Espactal,
you can contact me through either lp101 or keypicking or at locksmitharmy@gmail.com or through the clifflockpicks contact page... or youtube ;) im pretty easy to get ahold of... and to my knowledge im the only locksmitharmy... but I could be wrong... its possible i suppose... I do have a youtube video on the king and queens but no pix yet... im working on it... just been slacking this holiday weekend. http://www.youtube.com/watch…

Threemoons...
my numbers are based on the number of backers (at each level) multiplied by the ammount of picks promised each level... imagine the bulk of that comes from the $75 level which gets promised 20 picks... 589 backers multiplied by 20 picks is over 10,000 and that is only the 1 level... so I agree i doubt it will happen. but im happy to help in any way I can.

Creator Threemoons on September 3, 2012

LocksmithArmy,

I hope the board does get in touch with you, but given the real costs of actually getting picks out, I wouldn't hold my breath. If your numbers are accurate, there's no way short of a second round of Kickstarter funding that picks can get made.

Creator Epactal Claviger on September 1, 2012

LocksmithArmy, What's your preferred method of communication outside of this Kickstarter? And do you have pictures of the King/Queen picks anywhere? While 9USD seems a bit steep for a pick, it'd be worth it if you're the same LocksmithArmy as has been posting on a few other lockpick sites/forums.

Creator LocksmithArmy on September 1, 2012

I have sent an email to the board offering to use my processes to cut his design... i dont have a process to add handles yet though. But its a huge jump... while i have recieved no response yet, i can see their problem, even if it just costs them a few bucks a pick its still over 15000 picks that need to be cut... thats alot of money. Yeah he could use crappy metal and the same processes as other companies... but ull get the same results and have no better products... while 87000 seems like alot... what the people got was alot too... so he really needed all that money to put into development... ($3.50 x 15000 = 52500 , plus extra stock for the business and development costs and all the extras for the backers)

Creator Threemoons on September 1, 2012

LocksmithArmy,

VERY cool. Maybe you could team up with the new project team here and get Schuyler's picks made then? Again, once product goes out the door I would buy anything he designed pick-wise.

Fabulous work. Keep it up.

Creator Jason Aller on August 31, 2012

Mace Freeman, please see the update titled "Send in your Changed Addresses" http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/schuyler/lockpicks-by-open-locksport/posts/291766 that was sent on August 20th. Those boxes that are returned to sender will be reshipped once an address is provided.

Creator Mace Freeman on August 31, 2012

How are you sending out practice kits without verifying our addresses? Mine has changed since I bought into this train wreck and I haven't had any contact asking for my new one.

Creator jessica spurling on August 30, 2012

I received my box today, and want to thank all of the folks involved in making it happen. I'm hoping to receive the picks some day, but have no nasty words for anyone. Even if I never get Schuyler's picks, I'm glad I've gotten something from my contribution to his project. I sure do hope his picks see the light of day one way or another though. Even if they simply actually get made and need to be purchased - I would buy a set. So I guess my feelings are pretty different from many of the posters here.

Creator Epactal Claviger on August 30, 2012

Finding out I received my practice kit in the mail today was awesome! The pick-case has been loaded up with old TOOOL and SouthOrd lockpicks that were in need of a new case, and seems to roll up fine. A big Thank You to the Board, Towne, and the Volunteers. Only step left now is use the OpenLockSport templates to make some of Towne's picks.

Has anyone else here used those templates yet? I have the templates downloaded, and could (if the Board/Towne doesn't object) upload it somewhere (Suggestions?). I'll read the license later to see if I even need permission from the Board/Towne.

Creator Ryan Harp on August 30, 2012

Threemoons, I don't know what level you sponsored at but southord has some very affordable kits. I have the Southord MPXS-20 that is quite frankly more of a variety of picks than I will ever need. I use about 5 total out of them depending on what kind of lock I am attacking. That kit is 48 bucks I think. The MPXS-11 is about as much as anyone needs (save for a professional locksmith) and it is around 31 bucks.

I might also add that if you go to serepick.com and get their bogota set that is really all you'd ever need to open most pin-tumbler locks. Great bogota set. IMO.

I hope you find what you need and find the enjoyment in picking. It is quite addicting...

-Ryan

Creator Ryan Harp on August 30, 2012

Sweet, Just got my practice kit (Will make a great addition to the kit I run with when we run classes and events locally) And I can't wait to put my picks in the custom made case. It's simple but IMO way better than the southord case I got with one of my sets. Also would like to say the glass vial with the pins and springs is a nice touch and I noticed there were some very cool security pins included which will make for some interesting practice and teaching sessions. Thanks to Jason and the board for getting this rolling.

Creator Tim Spencer on August 30, 2012

Yay! Just got my practice kit and associated stuff! I'm looking forward to hearing whether or not I'll be able to fill the case up with picks and tension wrenches. :-) No big deal either way, but one can hope. I'm super glad that everybody is jumping in and helping out here! Please give Schuyler a smile for me. Have fun!

Creator Jason Aller on August 30, 2012

Larry, I see one entry that uses "Larry" without a last name as the Kickstarter id and there is an address associated with that. I'm going to send an e-mail to the address we have on record for that backer with the address that was used to print the mailing labels.

Creator Larry on August 30, 2012

I have not received any formal communication (email or product shipment). How do I know that I am still on your list of backers? I contributed $75 to this project. Could someone contact me and verify that I am on the list to receive whatever you are shipping out? Or verify that something (partial shipment) was shipped to me? Thank you.

Creator MacGyver101 on August 29, 2012

It's been a few days since I've read these updates, and I'm shocked.

We now have a group of people -- unconnected with the original Kickstarter offering -- who are volunteering their time and money to help the rest of us out as best they can. I'm at a loss to fathom why anyone would respond to the new Board with anger, accusations, or, quite frankly, anything other than "thank you for stepping in and trying to help make this better". As frustrated as you may be with Schuyler or this project, taking your frustration out on the new Board is inexcusably, embarrassingly rude.

The project raised a lot of money. That rightly comes with a lot of expectations... but let's keep some perspective: all but 3% of us pledged $100 or less. Absolutely no individual here has lost "the equivalent of two years' salary". In fact, the backer who seems to have lost the most at this point is Jason Scott... who, beyond his considerable time commitment, is currently paying thousands of dollars out of his own pocket to mail you something that Schuyler promised. *If* Jason has been abrupt with people who are demanding that he reach into his personal bank account to pay them back the $75 that they originally paid to Schuyler... well, I can't say that I'd blame him for feeling a bit annoyed.

Just my honest $0.02.

Creator Threemoons on August 28, 2012

Claire--YES. I am apparently a persona non gratis on this project, but I did in fact spend 10+ years as a project manager. IF Schuyler was able to license his pick designs--not sell, license--he would solve 2 issues at once:

--Picks would be made. For cash. They would be delivered. IF a third party was making them and handling the billing (ie normal Paypal/credit cards, standard terms of business) I would buy a Schuyler-designed set in a heartbeat, despite past misgivings. If he wasn't handling the money/business, I'd feel confident in an order.

--He would get cash flow immediately, and it wouldn't be a one-shot deal. If he got a percentage of every pick sold, that would be a more steady source of income as opposed to a lump sum. Also, any kind of licensing MAY be able to be parlayed into some kind of "employee" relationship which would get him health insurance.

Creator Claire van den Broek on August 28, 2012

Threemoons: I agree with what you said about Schuyler. I think he made a huge mistake going into this project with so little forethought and commitment, but I think he should absolutely be hired by another company to design picks. He has the talent for the job, I don't doubt that, but he is clearly not suitable for business management, at least not yet. In that way, Kickstarter is potentially harmful to young people like Schuyler, who get funding because their project 'goes viral' as it were, but can not produce or follow the type of business plans that a real investor would demand.

Creator Claire van den Broek on August 28, 2012

1. Justin: Thing is, I'm not "jumping ship right as everyone's coming together to fix this", I've been trying to get a refund for some time. While the responses I received from Jason were somewhat rude, I really appreciate that he did in fact get back to me, and very promptly too. Schuyler on the other hand had just ignored my requests for refunds, just like he did with others.

2. Ryan: You fundamentally misunderstand Kickstarter. I'm sure you like to think of yourself as an "invester" by using this website, but you are operating under a misunderstanding. Kickstarter projects are not, by any means, an "investment", and most certainly not comparable to venture capital investment. An investment is done in exchange for a share of the company, which then either pays off or fails. In the case of Kickstarter, you are not at all investing, you are merely committing to the purchase of a product, once it is manufactured. If the company makes a huge profit, you will get no benefit from that whatsoever.

3. Kickstarter TOS: Irrelevant, and the one in existence at the time of this project did not address the issue whatsoever. However, projects state that "if you pay X amount of money, you will receive Y goods". That is a simple and binding purchase agreement. If Y is not delivered in a timely manner, or becomes impossible to deliver, the purchaser is entitled to a refund of X.

Creator Threemoons on August 28, 2012

Marc,

Yes, I did. I didn't really have a choice; if I didn't at the end of the day and then tried to recoup a loss I would be told that I missed an opportunity earlier. Also, I found the general self-righteous tone and personal angle unprofessional and unhelpful.

I find it distressing that Schulyer is apparently taking preorders for picks--with per-order invoicing as opposed to a standard credit card payment--on his own site :http://schuylertowne.com: . It would seem like money from THOSE orders is going to be used to fund the Kickstarter picks, and then what about the pre-orders? Also, he's claiming that a limited amount of each set will be made, but then that he may license the designs (which destroys any claims of scarcity).

The sad thing is that I am sure that his pick designs are some of the best out there, and that he really is one of the best at locksport. But, he's got to stop digging the commitment hole, and the folks in charge of the project now need to be OK with hard questions and demands for transparency--and most crucially, not take those demands personally but as part of doing business, which is what they are doing now.

Creator Mike Desmarais on August 28, 2012

I have nothing against kickstarter in this. We're funding projects that may or may not happen and it's not up to kickstarter. It's not kickstarter's job to follow up or stay on the project leaders. I funded this project knowing it may not happen. That's how it goes and it's not kickstarter's problem.

What I didn't expect to happen was Schuyler quitting his job and use the kickstarter money to buy a new TV, computer, and go on vacation, all while not updating claiming that he was busy. Not too busy to take a vacation it seems. The fact is he did very little work on the project while drawing a "salary" from it as if it was his full time job.

I feel bad for Schuyler. I truly do. I'm sure he didn't mean for this to happen. I know some think he set out to rip us off but I don't think so. I think he made a long series of extremely bad choices. It's sad that no one was close enough to him to say "Going on vacation with kickstarter funds when you haven't been doing updates, let alone real work on the project, is a really really bad idea. Don't do it." Or it's sad that he wasn't able to listen. I feel for him and his mental health issues, but that doesn't excuse the fact that he lived off of the kickstarter money instead of using it to fund his project. I hope the board can get things back on track. I hope that everyone who's still waiting gets what they paid for. I'm sure Schulyer has done damage to his reputation by this project and who knows what it will take for him to get it back, if he ever can.

For those of you saying you'll throw in extra money would any of you like to buy me out? I'm at the $75 level.

Creator Marc L. Allen on August 28, 2012

So.. did you take the refund?

Creator Threemoons on August 27, 2012

Well, I've just been asked to accept a refund. You read that right. I was told point blank that I was not wanted on the project anymore.

I'm willing to wait, but I'm not willing to shut up when someone pisses on my leg and tells me it's raining. Like Claire, the communication that I received was that I was somehow the one at fault. Not being able to hold a project up to scrutiny and banishing anyone who disagrees does not do much to help the professional reputation of the people running the project now.

Launching personal attacks on your supporters isn't very wise, and was an unnecessary and juvenile slight on what should be a 100% business issue.

The refund should be able to cover at least some picks from a third party. I truly hope that Schuyler gets his act together, but I can't say that I would do business with any of the parties involved again. Not because the project failed, but because of their contracting a case of the nasties when tough questions got asked.

Creator Marc L. Allen on August 27, 2012

Agreed. However, once you start getting 'legal,' that TOS is a good starting point. I feel, as you do, that what happened was probably criminal, but I taking the outlook that it wasn't intentional.

At the end of the day, a number of people are now working hard to bring this project in. Once they manage or don't, we can then take a look at what was delivered and what wasn't before deciding what action we can or should take.

Personally, I'm willing to wait.

Creator Threemoons on August 27, 2012

My main point was that relying on the TOS as an excuse to potentially not deliver on a project is not encouraging. The equivalent of 2 years' salary for some people has vanished, the supporter community should not be the ones in a position of having to explain themselves for wanting what was promised.

Creator Ryan Harp on August 27, 2012

LOL I was 7 or 8 when they started raising the drinking age to 21 so I cannot speak to that with any accuracy. ;-)

Creator Marc L. Allen on August 27, 2012

I'm not sure which TOS would be in effect. Certainly, when my Credit Card TOC changes, I have to accept it or give up my card. I suppose the TOS, itself, should state whether changes will apply to previous projects still in progress.

Also, for the drinking analogy, most places I know have a grandfather clause... if you are 19 (and able to drink) at the time the age is raised to 21, you are still able to drink.