Stretch Reward, Further Explanation
After announcing the expansion of the base game to 3-4 players, there has been some upset commentary and speculation about my motives, foul play, and so forth.
In my experience, lengthy explanations are often not read. Often when they are read, they are misunderstood or misinterpreted. So, with update #8 announcement of the stretch/thanks/overfunding reward, I did not include my full analysis of why I chose to do what I did.
Given the recent commentary, I would like to offer some clarifications first and then an explanation of why I have done what I have done.
Clarifications
Further Clarification #1) The $15 threshold for stretch rewards is based on what you pledge, not what support slot you are in. To increase a pledge and maintain where you are, click on the “Manage Your Pledge” button. Then change the dollar amount pledged without changing the reward selected. I will be able to track this.
Further Clarification #2) Despite what has been speculated to the contrary, $15 is the threshold for any and all stretch or overfunding rewards.
Further Clarification #3) The $15 threshold was not planned from the beginning of the project. I learned more about the costs to create and deliver double the pieces of the base game and ran the numbers... More on this below.
Further Clarification #4) Anybody that pledged “Pay What You Want” at $5 or $10 is in no way getting less than what has been promised. You have the power of choice, which I respect.
Why I Put In The $15 Threshold
First, the project for “For The Win” was started almost 2 full weeks later than I initially wanted to. The reward levels were decided, the strategy for executing “Pay What You Want” was not 100% hammered down, overfunding goals were discussed but not decided (and costs of them were not yet determined), and I needed to finish the video.
The project was waiting for me to finish the video, and I was concentrating on this. I knew the structure I wanted, and most of the script for the video. I spent several hours on Friday getting it together and then launched on Saturday.
I was going to be at a mastermind meeting that next Monday through Thursday and knew that if I didn’t get the video finished and the project launch on Saturday, then it would probably be another 2 weeks before I launched.
That was unacceptable. So I got it done and launched the project. I was surprised at the speed at which the 200 pledges available at $5 went. So I opened up a bunch of $10 pledges to give people more opportunity to get in with a screaming deal.
Funding was going fast for a little more than 3 days, and then it hit a brick wall. Having previously done 2 successful Kickstarter projects, I could tell something was wrong. Reviews came in from some reviewers, including The Dice Tower, and very little happened. It became evident to me something wasn't working.
It looked like the For The Win would fund for a little over $15,000 by the end. This was an obvious problem given my data from previous projects and the enormous support in the first 2 days. That is when I decided that I would provide the best overfunding reward that had been discussed as the first reward, instead of later. I thought this is something that could reinvigorate excitement.
I got a suggestion from a backer (who I believe was at a “Pay What You Want” level) about having a minimum threshold for rewards. I thought, given the significant extra expense with this next reward, I should run the numbers both ways.
Based on existing project pledge levels, percentages of funding, numbers of backers, numbers of copies to deliver and so forth, I analyzed the numbers. The conclusion was that I needed to add the threshold. Imagine:
The support - Kickstarter/Amazon costs - Artwork costs - Setup costs - Manufacturing (minimum run is 5,000 copies) - Shipping - Delivery costs.
This does not leave much money left over. The numbers looked to me like I would cover my costs, soak up most of my potential sales, sell some into distribution, and end up sitting on a sizable stack of $25 abstract games. Not thrilling at all, or really feasible.
I have also seen that many people are not supporting the project because they wanted to get in at $5 or $10 and if they cannot, then they will not support.
So, I made the decision.
Nothing changes for those individuals at $5 or $10, except that when we hit $25,000 they will have the option to essentially buy an expansion that will be mostly unavailable for $10 or $5.
Everybody else will get the 3-4 player pieces. I liked it, so I did it.
Looking back on running this project, it would probably have been better to run standard and just make a flat $15 or $20 base pledge level. But that is what I do, I experiment, and I know how I feel about this one.
Personal Feelings Conclusion
I have made no secrets of my intentions as a game publisher. I intend to do 2 things:
- Heal The World By Providing Games That Strengthen Family Unity, Communication, and Love.
- Be a sufficiently profitable game publisher to support a sufficient staff to accomplish the mission.
Since my core mission is the strengthen families, and I believe physical games are an amazing vehicle for accomplishing just that, I am very open about what I do. I want other publishers to be able to succeed, and bring games to more people, including non-gamers.
I test things, I share results, and I try to break the hobby gaming industry out of its constricting box.
I believe that this general knowledge of my goals, sharing of my methods, and so forth increases the opportunity for people to second guess my intentions. Given my desire to accomplish the family strengthening mission, I test things, I push the envelope. Since I am often doing/executing the non-conventional, it is easy to speculate, I get it.
I really do get it. I understand it.
I make it no secret that I have a successful career. I have many children (and a lovely wife) and my core responsibility and desire in life is to provide for them, support them, teach them, and love them. I will not put them at risk.
So, I continue to run Tasty Minstrel Games in my extra time to the best of my ability, until there is proven stability and profits. Which would require several products that sell well perennially.
I could make a decision to stop as a publisher. And every time my motives are questioned, or I am called a liar, or whatever, it becomes more tempting... However...
I believe so much in the core mission to strengthen families that I continue.
My responsibility right now as a publisher is to make sure the game play of what we publish is up to Tasty Minstrel Games standards, that the games get the best artistic treatment, and that we deliver these games at great prices. Nothing has changed here.
Given that I am running a business with the intention of supporting future employees, replacing a career, and spreading the joy of gaming, there are some things that I cannot afford to do. This just happened to be one of them.
I give as much as I possibly can. No more, no less.
Michael
1,313
Backers
$31,085
pledged of $15,000 goal
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Funding period
Jan 14, 2012 -
Feb 8, 2012
- 8 created · 24 backed
- Michael Mindes 1187 friends
- Website: playtmg.com
Pledge $5 or more
198 backers Limited (2 of 200 left)
Pay What You Want! One copy of "For The Win!" will be shipped to you anywhere in the United States or Canada.
Estimated delivery: May 2012Pledge $10 or more
488 backers Limited (12 of 500 left)
Pay What You Want! One copy of "For The Win!" will be shipped to you anywhere in the United States or Canada.
Estimated delivery: May 2012Pledge $15 or more
100 backers All gone!
Pay What You Want! One copy of "For The Win!" will be shipped to you anywhere in the United States or Canada.
Estimated delivery: May 2012Pledge $20 or more
180 backers
One copy of "For The Win!" will be shipped to you anywhere in the United States or Canada.
Estimated delivery: May 2012Pledge $30 or more
33 backers
GAME & SHIRT - One copy of "For The Win!" will be shipped to you anywhere in the United States or Canada. Get one T-Shirt with the TMG logo in the size of your choice.
Estimated delivery: May 2012Pledge $30 or more
98 backers
THE DOUBLE: Two copies of For The Win shipped to you anywhere in the USA or Canada. For international orders, please add $10 for shipping.
Estimated delivery: May 2012Pledge $30 or more
41 backers
INTERNATIONAL - One copy of "For The Win!" will be shipped to you anywhere in the world.
Estimated delivery: May 2012Pledge $40 or more
70 backers
THE TRIPLE - You get 3 copies of For The Win, and all overfunding bonuses x3. For shipping outside of the USA or Canada, please add $10.
Estimated delivery: May 2012Pledge $45 or more
5 backers
GAME & SHIRT INTERNATIONAL - One copy of "For The Win!" will be shipped to you anywhere in the world. Get one T-Shirt with the TMG logo in the size of your choice.
Estimated delivery: May 2012Pledge $60 or more
45 backers
THE SIX SHOOTER: Six copies of For The Win shipped to you anywhere in the USA or Canada. For international orders, please add $15 for shipping
Estimated delivery: May 2012Pledge $100 or more
34 backers
RETAILER OPTION - 12 Copies total of "For The Win!" You get 4 FREE copies, sell 4 to cover your costs. 67% discount from MSRP ($25) available as an advance retail supporter. ____________________________________ FREE Shipping within USA, add $10 for shipping to Canada and $30 for shipping worldwide. ____________________________________ Great for game stores, toy stores, or as gifts for friends.
Estimated delivery: May 2012Pledge $200 or more
4 backers
DOUBLE RETAILER OPTION - 24 Copies total of "For The Win!" You get 8 FREE copies, sell 8 to cover your costs. 67% discount from MSRP ($25) available as an advance retail supporter. ____________________________________ FREE Shipping within USA, add $15 for shipping to Canada and $40 for shipping worldwide. ____________________________________ Great for game stores, toy stores, or as gifts for friends.
Estimated delivery: May 2012Pledge $400 or more
2 backers
4X RETAILER OPTION - 48 Copies total of "For The Win!" You get 16 FREE copies, sell 16 to cover your costs. 67% discount from MSRP ($25) available as an advance retail supporter. ____________________________________ FREE Shipping within USA, add $15 for shipping to Canada and $40 for shipping worldwide. ____________________________________ Great for game stores, toy stores, or as gifts for friends.
Estimated delivery: May 2012
Comments
Creator Michael Mindes on February 2, 2012
@Adam - Thanks!
Creator Adam on February 2, 2012
I was unaware of the controversy as well, and had no issues upping my support level - I had already thrown a few extra dollars on it anyway because I like your company and what you stand for, throwing on an extra $2 for the chance at the expansion was an easy decision.
Unfortunately people always assume the worst of people instead of the best. I have no doubts that you're doing everything you can do build a successful company, produce quality games, and please your customers - the fact that anyone would think otherwise is an unjust attack on your character, especially considering how candid you are about your motives with TMG.
Keep up the great work!
Creator Peter Schott on January 31, 2012
Actually, the main question there is how many additional zombies would be needed. To print more copies, you could just use different color paper/card stock and the "white" BG set. The rest of the game/rules are supposed to be the same.
Creator MK on January 30, 2012
Any info on when will the 3-4 player PnP version be released? I wanna try it before deciding whether or not upping my pledge!
Creator Jon Sharp on January 28, 2012
Michael, good for you. I don't think you should have had to explain yourself, but it was good to get some insight into your thoughts and feelings. As I stated a couple of times in the prior update, I support you and your company, and think everything that you did was fair.
I am upping my pledge to $30 to get 2 copies, because the game is worth $15 with or without the expansion. Someone who doesn't need the expansion is welcome to my $5 spot.
Creator Michael Mindes on January 26, 2012
@Marlon - I am excited to hear about your adventures away from the electronics! Currently, you are eligible for the stretch reward for when we hit $25,000. Of course, for a little more than double your current pledge, you could get 6 copies all with the extra pieces to support 3-4 players. Either way, thanks for the support.
@Madelyn - Thanks!
@Drew - Thanks, we have a number of game designs that are finished and ready to go, so we are very excited!
@David - I am so glad to hear that you have enjoyed Belfort and Martian Dice so much!
@Bob - Awesome. Enjoy the print and play, and thank you!
Creator Bob Cameron on January 26, 2012
Michael,
Thanks for the expanded explanation, and I appreciate you taking the time and effort to do that. Also know that there will always be those who split hairs and twist the "facts" to make themselves feel intelligent or gain some abstract advantage, as opposed to getting at any type of useful truth. I respect your mission and your approach to your gig, so just keep on doing your thing.
I'm looking forward to putting together and playing the print-n-play version of your game this weekend, and to seeing the finished product when you ship it.
All the best,
Bob
Creator David Kegg on January 26, 2012
Michael, TMG Rocks!!!!! Belfort and Martian Dice are already frequently played games in my Family's collection and I can't wait to see what TMG is going to come up with next. Keep it up. You will continue to have my support.
David
Creator Drew Blas on January 26, 2012
Hi Michael,
I also want to voice my support for your decision. I think it's a good one and does not deserve criticism. I'm also a $10 pledger and I'm perfectly happy upping my pledge or not getting the expansion. Please continue producing such good games, you're greatly appreciated!
Creator GameHen on January 26, 2012
I pledged at $10 and so no issues going to $15 to play with more players. I still think it is a good bargin.
Creator Marlon de Silva on January 26, 2012
Hi Michael.
Our family have really enjoyed the games you have produced. We've turned off the electronics to spend time with each other gaming, and we're closer for it.
I've pledged $30 for a single copy shipped internationally, so hope I qualify for the 3-4P version if the stretch goal is met. I was thinking of upping to $75 for 6 copies to give some away as presents anyway.
I don't think that the complaints were justified... the 5/10 pledgers were always getting what they pledged for, and it's up to them to pledge extra if they want the bigger game. Nothing wrong with that! I'm sorry to see you suffer such a backlash.
All the best.
Creator Paul Cooper on January 26, 2012
I thought the "pay what you want" levels were overly generous. Now you are getting heat for asking a minimum of $15 for the over funding goal with double the tiles. Some people are never satisfied unless you give it away for free. LOL
Creator Kai Alexis Price on January 26, 2012
Actually, convincing every last person who bought in at $5 or $10 to up to $15 to gain eligibility for the stretch reward would fall short of the overfunding goal by more than half. Convincing just over half of the people who are only getting one copy, whether at $5, $10, $15, or $20, to think of a friend and get two copies instead, however, that would do it. Of course, overfunding will probably be the result of a mixture of the two along with plain old attracting random new people through those videos and reviews, along with others plugging the game on Facebook and elsewhere.
Creator Michael Mindes on January 26, 2012
@Anthony - Yep
@Ben - Thanks
@Kyle - Awesome, thanks!
Creator Kyle Oliver on January 26, 2012
One of the better stretch goals I have seen and has caused me to seek out friends to buy into this one given its low entry-point. Thanks!
Creator Ben Allen on January 26, 2012
I thought it was fine...no confusion from me. Keep up the good work!!
Creator Anthony Dahl on January 26, 2012
I think your update makes sense and it's completely fair to do what you did with the stretch goal. If I understand it correctly, all I need to do is make sure my pledge is $15 or higher and keep my existing selection ($10 pledge for the game) and I will get the 3-4 player tiles if it hits $25k.
Totally reasonable and makes sense.
Creator Nathan Moore on January 26, 2012
As someone who didn't pay 15 I still can't say I understand what the fuss is about. I assumed at that level I wasn't getting any extras and nothing said so far has said any different.... Its an awesome deal what else do I really need??
Count me as one who liked the idea Micheal :-) To bad it doesn't seem everyone did.
Creator Jeff "Darkwind" King on January 26, 2012
I never understood the outcry. Nothing foul was done as far as I'm concerned. I upped my pledge when you offered a 2 copy version. If this gets close to the stretch goal, I'll definitely entertain the idea of upping again to have give aways, etc...
Creator Troy D'Hondt on January 26, 2012
I like to think that if I don't ever play this as a 3-4 player game I could split the it into two 2-player games and take one to the cottage and leave one at home! :) Or you could give it away to your favorite duo!
Creator Michael Mindes on January 26, 2012
@William - Nothing has changed.
@Samuel - You would get the extra pieces for all copies, yes.
Creator MK on January 26, 2012
Thanks for the update. I would have preferred the whole info before the stretch reward, but I guess it is a personal preference. I will keep my Pay what you want pledge. after all, I doubt I will ever play this as a 4-player version...maybe one day I will make the 4-player PnP version, but I doubt so
Creator Samuel A. Rebelsky on January 26, 2012
I agree with the comments that this seems reasonable. I was wondering, though, if we go for one of the retailer options (aka "lots of gifts for friends") and you hit $25K, so all the copies include expansions. (Update 8 seems to suggest that, with "They will get one set of these pieces for each copy of the game they are getting", but it seemed worth asking.)
Creator Peter Hawkins on January 26, 2012
Seems reasonable enough to me (but, then I'm paying extra because I live in the UK - damn those international postage charges).
Creator William Springer on January 26, 2012
Now I'm confused; are you changing anything or just expanding on update #8?
Creator Simon Withers on January 26, 2012
"Nothing changes for those individuals at $5 or $10, except that when we hit $25,000 they will have the option to essentially buy an expansion that will be mostly unavailable for $10 or $5."
I think this sums it up. I saw the option this way, and was able to happily make a decision to either increase or not my backing.
Creator Craig. on January 26, 2012
This is a tricky situation. The stretch reward is moot unless the $25,000 goal is reached. In order to do that, people will need to up their pledges to at least $15 to take advantage of the stretch reward. However, there is a possibility that the $25,000 goal isn't reached and then people have paid more than they originally intended. Yes, the pledge can be changed, but most aren't going to remember to do that. On the flip side, I get the feeling that many are in "wait and see" mode, meaning they won't raise their $5 and $10 pledges until the $25,000 is reached which ensures them the extra stretch reward. Unfortunately, raising the pledge level now is exactly what is needed to reach the stretch goal...
Creator Vince Lupo on January 26, 2012
Some people don't like surprises I guess? I also don't understand why it would bother anyone.
Creator Cole Busse on January 26, 2012
Chris you touched on such a great point. In my field as a software developer we work to increase visibility of our progress to management all the time and at a finer and finer detail as reporting technologies and methodologies advance. You know what we found out...that the more people know the more they think things are going wrong. Our management freaked out because they thought we all of a suddenly stopped working when they say how many roadblocks we encounter on a weekly or even daily basis. Much like this situation, no other game company give this sort of visibility so the bumps are that much more noticeable and alarming. And hopefully, as was the case at my work, eventually people get used to the new normal and realize that more information is actually better and working together with more communication/visibility leads to making a better product.
Creator Joseph Soonsin Lee on January 26, 2012
No complaints here
Creator Mike Morris on January 26, 2012
I agree with the supporting remarks above. This looked like a fun game when I first checked it out and the only thing that kept me from participating right away was the fact that it was just a 2 player game. I play games with my kids and only get 4+ player games normally. I did jump in at the $10 point anyways because the game just looked fun. Then I check and see the 3 to 4 player option if you up to $15. I jumped on this immeadiately as it was exactly what I wanted originally. :-) Ignore the haters. The expansion option you put out there will enable me to play this with all my kids and gets you one step closer to your primary goal.
Creator Matthew Alexander on January 26, 2012
I didn't even realize there was a controversy over this. I got in at the $5 PWYW level and have no problem with having a threshold on the stretch rewards. There was no lying; I can keep my payment as low as $5 and still get exactly what was promised. I guess I don't see what the big deal is.
Creator Cole Busse on January 26, 2012
Honestly Michael, even if you had planned all this from the beginning, I don't understand what the problem is. People have a choice. A choice to give you money for a game or not. You gave those of us early to the project an extra choice. Get a great 2P game for cheap or get a chance at a great 4P for cheap.
For those upset by this. I get it. You view this as a dilution of your reward for getting involved early. The cheap copies are less valuable now because they are not potentially 4P. People who came "late" (as in after the first 3 days) got a bonus with the stretch reward but you feel like you are losing a bonus. Well that's true and that isn't true. It's a choice. You have a choice those people who missed on the 5 and 10 deals do not have. A choice I made was to choose to look at it that way.
Besides all of this, at the end of the day most of the backers are not backing out of the goodness of their heart to help Michael & co. feed their families, but because you want something for as little as possible. Nothing wrong with that, though it way sound awful to some, it is reality, especially in today's economy. So don't begrudge Michael/TMG for trying to make money. They offered you a choice and because some didn't feel option A (a great game as a great price) was good enough they will complain about it and act out, all the while accepting it by not choosing option B (too walk away) - which seems hypocritical to me.
But, I get that too - to many of us (myself included) with a strong board gaming passion, it does not feel like walking away is a real option. Must have the precious! But, it is. Take a hard long look before getting bent out of shape and choose. Is the game worth what you are paying when you back (with and without stretch rewards)? Then forget all the rest of the drama and enjoy playing it when it arrives.
Sorry for the rant. But we are a community. Board gaming is something that is very important to me because people are (mostly, kind of, sort of) forced to be social to play them. Our lives today need more excuses to be social with each one. So I don't like it when I see members of my community getting upset and turning on each other. We are growing but we are not so big we can (or should for that matter) turn on one another. We are all here for the same thing. We want to see a new addition to the community be made real. We are all on the same side, we just have different motivations. Who cares what the differences are...when I'm playing with someone else who enjoys a game, I don't begrudge them if they wanted to play it for different reasons then I, I only begrudge them if they beat me. =P
Creator Chris Schreiber on January 26, 2012
I was totally upset by the uproar yesterday and was timing how to defend what seemed to me like obvious and thoughtful reasoning behind a well-executed campaign. The only response that I thought seemed appropriate to the announcement was 'thank you so much' or 'thanks, but I'm happy with what I have.' Would someone please slap me across the face whenever I think aloud that I want to one day publish a game---can I get a volunteer for that? No worries, Michael. You always do the right thing and your heart is in the right place. You're a genuine guy and your transparency to try and support others is authentic.
Creator Ben Crane on January 26, 2012
Agreement with the support above. You are already selling me a cool looking game for $5 (which I bet doesn't even cover the shipping to get it to me, much less development, printing, etc.). And I now have the option to get an expansion for $10, which still means I am paying only 60% of retail on the BASE. Don't let a few whiners on the internet sour you on the rest of us.
I'm sorry the PWYW option hasn't worked out as you'd hoped, but major kudos for trying to break the mold. Can't wait for me copy to get here. And congrats on 1000 backers!
Creator Mark Brenner on January 26, 2012
I think your explanation should calm people down and if not they are just wanting something for nothing which is ridiculous. You guys need to understand that this company needs to make money to keep going and giving away 3 times the tiles for an original 5 dollar donation would be suicide. Obviously it would have been better had the stretch rewards been clearly defined from the beginning but it's not like he's trying to screw everyone.
Creator Michael Mindes on January 26, 2012
Thanks all for the kind words thus far. I greatly appreciate it. Now, I think it is time to put some food into my belly for the first time in a long time.
Creator Jason Fordham on January 26, 2012
Ditto the praise.
The threshold should make PERFECT sense to anyone who has ever bought a game. This stuff is not free to print. The pay what you want is ALREADY a frighteningly fantastic deal.
No worries here!
Creator Kyle R. Woods on January 26, 2012
you can be sure that I'll up my pledge if we get closer! Even at $15 it's a great buy!
Creator Stewart Bushman on January 26, 2012
No worries. I bumped myself up from $10 to $15 and went on with my life. Some of the complainers apparently were unaware that was an option, so polite griping is understandable to a point. For the whiners and name-callers, well, they probably will be pressed to find extra friends for the 3/4-player tileset anyway.
Creator Peter Schott on January 26, 2012
Even though I ended up getting in @ $15, I would totally understand needing to up my pledge to cover the cost for extra pieces. As you noted, the promise was for a copy of the game at a 2-player level with no real hint of a version for more players as the stretch rewards. I'll admit that just the initial post wasn't quite enough to get me on board, but the preview / review videos made a big difference there. Seeing it played and seeing the pieces (without grotesque zombie depictions - thank you) made a big difference in my decision to get in. I realized that the gameplay looked interesting and that it could be a fun family game even though I'm not crazy about the zombie thing. (I don't get the attraction and probably never will.)
Thanks for the update on your reasoning for this and I hope the people who were unhappy will either up their pledge or be content at their level.
Creator Troy D'Hondt on January 26, 2012
People will always find something to complain about. (I was going to say "haters gonna hate" but people beat me to that). You're doing a great job and the more I think about this game the more I'm liking it :) Here's hoping we hit 25,000!!!
Creator Scott Minkoff on January 26, 2012
I've got your back, Michael. Keep on keepin on.
Creator Nathan Milbrath on January 26, 2012
Haters gonna hate. Keep up the good work Michael. You are fast becoming my favorite publisher of games.
Creator Mathue Faulkner on January 26, 2012
There are always going to be haters. Let them hate.
I'm a big fan of TMG, and I don't understand the backlash you're getting on this game or Kings of A&S.
Creator Stefan Stignei on January 26, 2012
Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense, time to upgrade my pledge :)
Creator Sean Nowell on January 26, 2012
Thanks for the response and insight, Michael.