Victorian era, fantasy action role-playing from the lead gameplay designer of TITAN QUEST!
Kickstarter is almost over but the action will be picking up on the Grim Dawn forums so please visit us!
If you missed out on the KS but still want to contribute or if you wanted a reward that you weren't able to get, we'll be putting up our pre-order system on the Grim Dawn website within the next few weeks. Some rewards may not be available though and physical rewards will only be available until we send the orders to be manufactured. We're not sure yet when that will happen but we'll keep you updated on the forums.
Thank you to everyone who helped make this happen! Crate loves you!
View the REWARD CHART to see what's in each tier!
We pledge to contribute 5% of our profits from the sale of the game to other promising game projects on Kickstarter and elsewhere. Visit: Kicking it Forward for more information on this initiative and to see other projects participating.
- [UNLOCKED] $350k - Dual wielding pistols (feature tech and new animation set)
- [UNLOCKED] $360k - 25 extra pieces of unique item art
- [UNLOCKED] $375k - Additional end-game boss monster (total of 2) lurking somewhere out there in the darkness for you to find...
- [UNLOCKED] $385k - 25 more pieces of unique item art
- [UNLOCKED] $400k - A new environment set that you'll get to decide on. We'll create a thread on the Grim Dawn forums to discuss ideas with fans, then select the best ideas and create a poll for you to vote the one you want most.
- [UNLOCKED] $412k - 2 additional monster types (models and animations)
- [UNLOCKED] $425k - Three large, high-level dungeons, each with its own theme and named hero monster. The dungeon entrances will randomly appear in the world.
- [UNLOCKED] $450k - Savage two-handed melee weapons (includes animations and all the art required to create an entirely new item type)
- [UNLOCKED] $465k - Additional end-game boss (total of 3) to encounter in some dark and dangerous corner of the world.
- [UNLOCKED] $480k - New survivor town hidden in the remote wilderness for you to discover. Will include a new faction group and new quest-lines to unlock once you've gained their trust.
- [UNLOCKED] $480.5k - New and higher-quality developer beer, as requested by many after the sad beer in Update #10. Surely this will help enhance the quality of all our work!
- [UNLOCKED] $490k - 2 additional monster types (models and animations) and another 25 extra pieces of unique item art
- [UNLOCKED] $500k - A new dungeon art-set with a choice of catacom... scratch that! Not exciting enough? Fans have suggesting visiting the Aetherial or Chthonic home-worlds and we're down for that! We'll post a thread on the forum to gather other ideas and then put it up to vote in a poll. ; )
- [UNLOCKED] $520k - SURVIVAL MODE! We'll create a new gameplay mode that will be free for all backers (KS or Website Pre-order). In survival mode players will fight to stay alive against increasingly difficult waves of monsters. It will release sometime after the game so as not to delay development.
- [UNLOCKED] $535k - A new faction and story-line! This stretch goal was determined by a fan poll thanks to William Potash for having the idea to run that!
Update #13: The Grim Dawn Kickstarter ends this Friday! Check out our revised reward chart + New Music!
Update #1: Answers to questions - Do you have a publisher? How big is Crate? How far along is Grim Dawn?
Grim Dawn is old-school style, open-world action role-playing!
Grim Dawn is an action role-playing game being created with the tools and technology used to build Titan Quest by a few veteran developers from Iron Lore, including Arthur Bruno, the lead gameplay designer on Titan Quest.
We’re a small team with limited resources and we’re not competing to launch the next big ARPG but if you’re a more traditional gamer that still craves the complexity, intrigue and quirkiness of older games, maybe Grim Dawn can be the next big ARPG for you.
Grim Dawn won’t hold your hand to ensure you never make a bad decision and it won’t feature a story on rails with linear level design to prevent you from ever getting lost. It will, however, offer you the chance to do things in your own way, have an experience that is unique from everyone else playing the game and explore off the beaten path to see and do things that not every player is likely to find.
Unlike many other ARPGs, in Grim Dawn, you’re not the lone hero out on a quest to save the world by vanquishing one ultimate evil. The world of Cairn, in which Grim Dawn is set, has been devastated by a war between two otherworldly powers, with humankind caught in the middle. The dangers facing the survivors of humanity are too great and numerous to be solved by any one individual.
There is still beauty in the world but it is permeated with darkness and peril. The broken remnants of wraith-like Aetherial and demonic Ch’thonian armies rove the lands seeking to gain some advantage in a cataclysmic war that's ground to stalemate. Bands of human marauders turned cannibal roam the roads and creatures from the days of lore, thought driven to extinction, find the world ripe for their resurgence.
It is the dawn of a desperate and dangerous new era in Cairn where isolated enclaves of human survivors struggle to rebuild and many are in need of help. This is the backdrop for the countless adventures that await you in Grim Dawn. There is no one central story; there are many stories and whether you help the weak or help yourself and how you go about it is yours to decide. It pays to have some allies in troubled times like these but choose them carefully…
We’ve listened to years of feedback from the Titan Quest community and continue to do so every day on the Grim Dawn forums as we strive to improve upon past performance and make this our greatest work yet. The creation of Grim Dawn is guided by traditional design and old school sensibilities, with innovation only in the areas where we feel it truly improves the game and isn't just a gimmicky back of the box feature.
Grim Dawn will:
- Be DRM free!
- Include robust modding tools so you can create your own worlds!
- Be faster-paced, with much more satisfying enemy hit reactions and deaths.
- Allow you to fight house-to-house as you lay waste to enemies and the former owner’s furniture in the process. Break through walls to open up new areas of exploration!
- Feature a more open-world design with randomized elements that will greatly enhance replay-ability. Each play-through will be unique with "set-piece" spawners that can turn a patch of wilderness into different types of enemy camps, a traveling merchant caravan, etc, each with their own unique art.
- We don’t control where you go; you do! If you don't want to follow the main story, you aren't forced to. Non-linear progression allows you to unlock new areas by repairing bridges, defeating enemy blockades, etc, as soon as you have the resources and power to do it. Race ahead into higher-level areas and get pwned, we'll warn you but we're not going to stop you!
- Let you combine any two of five distinct skill classes, each with multiple skill trees in which to specialize. Spend money to reclaim skill points if you’re unhappy with your build.
- Have a refined loot system that drops far less junk-items, produces more uber randomized gear and ensures more consistent rewards from hero and boss monsters.
- Immerse you in a gritty, dangerous, Victorian era fantasy world where humankind has been pushed to the brink of extinction by warring otherworldly powers.
- Give players meaningful quest choices and the ability to visually change the starting town as they help to rebuild and secure the future survival of humanity.
- Let you ally with NPC factions to earn rewards and unlock new quest lines. Be wary though, aiding one group can make another your enemy!
- Join up with friends in coop-multiplayer through online match-making or play over LAN and experience the full game together.
- And so much more…
What else makes Grim Dawn different?
At its core, Grim Dawn strives to perfect the magical formula of fast-paced, satisfying combat, strategic character development and frenzied loot collection that defines the genre. However, we don't know of too many (or any?) ARPGs that let you make meaningful quest decisions and allow you to earn favor or go to war with different NPC factions. Have you ever been able to repair bridges to unlock new areas in whatever order you choose? With so many stylized ARPGs coming out now, we think our gritty art style and realistic world also help to define us. Speaking of realistic world, did we mention that the levels in Grim Dawn are actually stitched together to form a giant, continuous playable world, reflective of natural geography?
These are some of the features that help to set Grim Dawn apart. With your contribution, who knows how far we can go!
Sound overly ambitious?
It might be... if it weren't for the fact that these features already exist! Well hey, we're not just some dudes rolling up in here, looking for you guys to take all the risk in funding our dream gig. We've already put a lot of our own blood, sweat and tears into this labor of love over the past 2+ years to get it where it is today. We've developed a ton of cool new features and the core gameplay is already quite fun, if we do say so ourselves. What? You want to see the gameplay? Well, here is our latest sampling! (hopefully just enough to get you hooked...)
Why do we need your help?
Though we have several experienced developers working on Grim Dawn, only two of us are in a financial situation where we can afford to support ourselves without a salary (albeit on a steady diet of bread and moldy cheeses). The other guys involved with Grim Dawn work day jobs at other game studios to pay the bills and contribute as they can on nights and weekends. As you might imagine, this makes for pretty slow going and it is certainly not ideal for creative collaboration. When critical team members end up in crunch at their day jobs, they can sometimes get tied up for weeks, causing certain aspects of our development to temporarily grind to a halt.
Occasionally, just to get things in-game, we have people performing jobs that are really outside their area of expertise. This can result in such things as "1990s looking", designer-created UI and programmer-drawn lightning bolts. Even so, some aspects of development, such as art, animation, and world-building, are falling woefully behind the programming and gameplay development. We're at a point now where we have solid core gameplay and some robust features but not enough content to release anything and we really need to accelerate that process.
While we could still finish a fine little game on our own, that would be rough around the edges but very fun, we believe there is a much greater potential that could be realized if we were more adequately funded and staffed. So we're hoping you can help give us some proper funding so that we can get the team together, start making faster progress and ultimately release a bigger, better game for you and everyone else.
If you'd like to see more information about our current state of progress, check out this recent "State of the Game Address" on our forum.
Why should you care?
Because we care! Yeah, yeah, we know, you probably hear that a lot nowadays. Suddenly everyone is denouncing publishers and talking about how they want to make games for traditional gamers... as long as you provide the funding first.
How are we different?
We also set out to make a game we were passionate about, guided by old school design sensibilities, for traditional gamers. The difference is that we started Grim Dawn over two years ago with no funding except for our personal savings.
I'm Arthur Bruno and at my last job, as Lead Designer at Iron Lore, I made a pretty comfortable salary with great benefits. Now I make zero thousand dollars a year with no benefits (well, there are definitely some benefits but health insurance isn't one of them). I'm not complaining though, it has been totally worth it though to be able to pursue a dream and work on a game I love, for fantastic fans that have supported us from the beginning. It hasn't been easy but I wouldn't have it any other way... well, I mean, if you guys funded this project, that would certainly make things easier and I'm down with that. In thirty some-odd days though, regardless of whether we reach our funding goal or not, I'll still be working on Grim Dawn, trying to make it happen.
Not only are we dedicated to creating this game but we're dedicated to our fans. We don't need to promise that we're going to start a new, open dialog with fans and seek your input on development because we already are. I personally have over 650 posts to the titanquest.net fan-site forum and over 1800 on the Grim Dawn forums. That's an average of over 2 posts a day since the forum went live more than two years ago. We've put up polls to get consensus from forum members when we are on the fence about an issue and we've asked for feedback on everything from place names to class skills, to UI. We've even implemented a few features based on suggestions from the forum.
Here are just a few links to threads that serve as examples of the type of collaborative interactions that take place on our forums:
Another proof of our dedication to fans is that we don't hold back game information in order to arrange exclusives with the gaming press. We release information and updates directly to the Grim Dawn forums, our Facebook page and... well, actually that's usually it. When stuff appears in the press about Grim Dawn, it usually comes from our website. Fans always see everything first! We've always had a very open, honest and personal dialog with our fans.
Finally, we have a long-standing passion and commitment to making this a hardcore ARPG for PC, guided by the best of old school design principles. The game as it stands today, is the same game we told fans that we were setting out to make in 2009 and the feature set reflects that. Whether we get funding or not, that isn't going to change; it's only going to get better. Want to know more about my philosophies as a designer? Check out these posts, one of which is pasted from an interview I did for Rock, Paper, Shotgun.
How will the Kickstarter money be used?
The first thing we should stress is that our funding goal is not the budget to make this game; only to help finish it. There is no way you could make Grim Dawn from scratch with its current level of quality and feature set on such a small budget. It is only because we've acquired the rights to a pre-existing engine built for ARPG and invested some of our own money and years of unpaid work into this project that we're at a point now where a few hundred thousand dollars can make a big impact.
Our goal is about the minimal level of funding that would be required to make a big difference on this project because it is enough where we can start to bring on some of our part-time people, full-time and guarantee them at least a certain duration of wages. This would likely be an animator, artist and designer to start out. We'd also use money for more outsourcing so that we could get additional unique item art and enemy models.
Just having a few full-time people in these critical roles would be a world of difference for the project. Not only would we be able to get so much more done and produce better work but we'd also have more time to post updates and interact with the community. We'd be able to reach alpha release a little faster but as the extra help had time to work, content would start to flow much faster, leading to a speedier beta and final release, as well as a lot more frequent updates along the way. It would still be a lot of work with such a small team but we'd be progressing at more than triple the rate that we are currently.
If we exceed our goal, all of the extra money will be used to bring more full-time people onto Grim Dawn and expand our art outsourcing. That means more content, more quickly. The ultimate goal would be for us to bring all of our part-time people on full-time and hopefully even hire a few more people. Then we would be totally rocking and well on our way to making Grim Dawn all that it can be!
Thank you for helping us make this happen!
The Crate Team
Please note that reward delivery estimates are conservative. We think we can deliver many of them earlier, especially if we exceed our funding goal but we want to try to play it safe. Also, note that the delivery estimates are based on whatever item will take the longest to produce in any tier. Since we're not sure whether we'll be able to finish the Crate story and get it sent out during development of the game, we've allowed some time post-release. In a best case scenario though, we'll be able to deliver much of this stuff earlier.
Existing Grim Dawn Key-Holders - Please Read!
To ensure that you get the reward that you desire and are properly credited, you must carefully read and follow the instructions posted in the Official Kickstarter Project thread on the forum. It is important that you only pledge the difference between the value of your existing key and the tier you want. If you pledge more, we won't be able to refund you, so please pledge carefully!
Also, please note that the first 3 tiers on Kickstarter are identical to the 3 website pre-order levels despite the minor price differences. If you have a Legendary key, for example, you will get all of the stuff in the KS $50 reward and do not need to pledge any more money if you don't want to.
We're sorry that we can't offer better payment options for those outside the US. We realize this is a problem but it is largely outside our control. At the bottom you can find more information about why we cannot offer PayPal but first, here are a few suggestions we've found for alternate payment methods that might be available in your area:
I received an email from a fan a while back who had come up with a solution for this and I posted it to the forum: http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2172
Also, another backer named Matt suggested that German fans could use paysafecard and convert it into an Amazon.com voucher to pledge on Kickstarter.
"Treat paysafecard only as a prepaid card, that means you can't transfer money to it. Once used, you need to buy another one. So thinking about it as a CC is wrong. Now, about amazon and as far as I know, Germans can use their shop to exchange psc into amazon vouchers, but other countries don't have this option available right now and I don't think we'll see this in the near future.
I myself use psc only in steam store, it's more convenient and secure. You know, I don't need to provide any personal information, just 16 digit code and it's done. Hope it helps a little."
We found this payment method posted on the Double Fine forums:
1. Bought a Ukash voucher.
2. Converted it to a Ukash NEO prepaid MasterCard.
3. Used that prepaid (debit) card to back the project
Such a card is a (temporary/virtual) prepaid MasterCard. It works just
fine with Amazon Payments.
The Ukash NEO prepaid MasterCard I used was completely virtual: all I had to do is go out and buy a Ukash voucher; all other steps I could perform from behind my computer.
Unfortunately, for reasons beyond our control, we cannot offer payment through PayPal. We realize many people do not use credit cards and are very sorry that we can't provide a payment option for them. If you want more information about why we cannot offer PayPal, please check out this post on our forums: http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1880
$18 is for the full game, downloadable after release. You don't have to pay anything extra. It was just poorly worded and KS doesn't let us edit the wording now. We are expecting to sell the game for around $20-$24 after release depending on the amount of content. So we're offering it now at a little lower price as a thank you to people pledging early.
The delivery dates for each reward tier are based on whatever part of the reward we think may take the longest to deliver, not the game date. All digital copies of alpha, beta, and full release will go out on the same date, regardless of the delivery date on the reward tier. So, for example, we think it could take a long time to produce the "Crate Story" biography, so that extends the delivery date of any tier that it is in. Our delivery estimates are conservative because we want to make sure we can deliver your rewards on or before the delivery date. Since we don't have a lot of experience fulfilling physical rewards, which are usually handled by publishers, we may have totally over-estimated some of the dates while trying to play it safe and, if that is the case, you'll get your rewards sooner.
There is also the issue of man-power. Right now we're a tiny company but if our Kickstarter goal is met, we'll be able to add more people. If we only barely meet our funding goal vs. greatly exceed it, we'd have significantly more or less people among which to spread all of the work of development and reward fulfillment, so this could also make it take longer or shorter.
The alpha, beta, and full release have different dates because they will begin at different times in development, with alpha preceeding beta and the full release coming last.
We've gotten numerous requests for Linux support and would love to offer it but we need to make sure we reach a funding level where we're confident we can manage this while still producing the extra content that is a priority to most fans. After some careful consideration, we feel Linux would become something we could commit to at $800k. If we reach $650k, we pledge that we'll try to make it happen but wouldn't feel confident making a promise at that level. The Linux version would likely come a little after the full release.
At $600k, we can commit to professional EFIGS translation. A little below that, it may still be possible but if we only marginally exceed our goal, we'd probably do something more community based, where we released our localization files to the community and work with our international, multilingual friends to get everything translated. Then fans could download the files for use in their game.
We would love to offer Mac support but we need to make sure we reach a funding level where we're confident we can manage this while still producing the extra content that is a priority to most fans. We've been bombarded by request for a Linux version but have had hardly any Mac request, so we've decided we would attempt a Linux port first. The funding goal we estimate we would need to reach before we could commit to a Mac port would be $950k, however, If we reach $800k, we pledge that we'll try to make it happen but wouldn't feel confident making a promise at that level. The Mac version would likely come a little after the full release.
Yes. For example, the $250 tier has two game keys and therefore also receives two keys for the first expansion.
pledged of $280,000 goal
seconds to go
Apr 17, 2012 - May 18, 2012
Pledge $18 or more
Digital download of finished game for PC, DRM free at a low price for your early support. Can be downloaded directly from us or via Steam and other distribution sites + Exclusive "Service Medal" in-game accessory, available only on Kickstarter.Estimated delivery: Aug 2013
Pledge $24 or more
Swashbuckler Edition includes all previous rewards + Start the game in style with an exclusive swashbuckler's coat! (in-game item) - All higher tiers will receive this reward. Co-op bundles will receive duplicates of this prize because no one should have to swashbuckle alone!Estimated delivery: Aug 2013
Pledge $28 or more
Drunken Master Edition includes all previous rewards + Special vintage, black-label bottle of Enchanted Burrwitch Brew that never runs dry. (in-game item) Have no fear of gaining unfair advantages though, far from granting special powers, this vile brew is certain to dull your combat abilities and may induce vomiting. Please use responsibly. - All higher tiers will receive this reward. Co-op bundles will receive duplicates of this prize because misery deserves company!Estimated delivery: Aug 2013
Pledge $32 or more
Co-op bundle includes 2 copies of the finished game, for digital download, DRM free, at a special lower price for those who just wanted an extra copy to share with a friend or loved one. + Includes in-game accessory "Service Medal" for each copyEstimated delivery: Aug 2013
Pledge $35 or more
Early Access Edition with digital download of finished game for PC, DRM free + Exclusive access to the beta + Digital download of Grim Dawn original music + "Veteran's Medal" in-game accessory, available only on Kickstarter.Estimated delivery: May 2013
Pledge $45 or more
Early Access Edition + Expansion is everything from the $35 tier, including beta access, plus our first expansion (which will be developed after release).Estimated delivery: May 2013
Pledge $48 or more
Co-op Expansion Bundle includes 2 copies of the finished game and 2 copies of the first expansion, both for digital download, DRM free, at a special lower price for those who just want an extra copy and expansions to share with a friend or loved one. + Includes in-game accessory "Service Medal" for each copyEstimated delivery: Aug 2013
Pledge $50 or more
Digital Collector's Edition with "Crate Story" downloadable PDF (Gives a behind-the-scenes look at the struggle of starting a new game studio and tells the story of Crate from the last days of Iron Lore to the development of Grim Dawn and the many challenges we've overcome along the way. Will include color photos and concept art from development). + Digital download of finished game for PC, DRM free + Exclusive access to the alpha and beta + Digital download of Grim Dawn original music + Name in the game credits + Officer's Medal in-game accessory, available only on Kickstarter. + Massively stylish George Washington style powdered wig in-game accessory.Estimated delivery: Oct 2013
Pledge $58 or more
Digital Collector's + Expansion is everything from the $50 tier, including alpha / beta access, plus our first expansion (which will be developed after release).Estimated delivery: Oct 2013
Pledge $64 or more
Co-op Digital Collector's Bundle includes everything from the $50 version plus one additional digital copy of the finished game (does not include duplicates of all the extras).Estimated delivery: Oct 2013
Pledge $78 or more
Co-op Digital Collector's Expansion Bundle includes double everything from the $50 version plus two copies of our first expansion all for digital download.Estimated delivery: Oct 2013
Pledge $85 or more
Digital Deluxe Edition with Special Will-O'-The-Wisp pet that acts as a light in the darkest of times. (cosmetic only) + Get our first expansion free via digital download when it is released + Exclusive, high resolution, digital map that could be used as a wallpaper or printed out for your wall. + Everything from the Digital Collector's Edition, including a digital copy of the game with access to alpha and beta. (This includes no physical goods to help international fans who want to support the project more but avoid VAT)Estimated delivery: Oct 2013
Pledge $98 or more
Co-op Digital Deluxe Bundle includes everything from the $85 version plus one additional digital copy of the finished game (does not include duplicates of all the extras).Estimated delivery: Oct 2013
Pledge $100 or more
Boxed Special Edition of the game with physical game disk and soundtrack. This is for those fans who just want the boxed game at a lower price without a lot of other physical goods. + Small fold-out paper map + Everything from the Digital Deluxe Edition including the expansion and a digital copy of the game with access to the alpha and beta. (Please add $10 for shipping outside the US & Canada)Estimated delivery: Nov 2013
Pledge $150 or more
Boxed Deluxe Edition of the game with physical game disk and soundtrack. + Grim Dawn poster suitable for framing + Small fold-out paper map + Everything from the Digital Deluxe Edition including the expansion and a digital copy of the game with access to the alpha and beta, plus an extra copy of the final digital release to give to a friend or loved one.(Please add $10 for shipping outside the US & Canada)Estimated delivery: Nov 2013
Pledge $175 or more
22 backers All gone!
Limited G400 Edition gives you everything from the Boxed Deluxe Edition plus a sweet Logitech® Optical Gaming Mouse G400 for all your precision clicking needs! The people at Logitech® were kind enough to offer us these mice to use as a reward but we have a limited supply!Estimated delivery: Nov 2013
Pledge $250 or more
59 backers Limited (1441 of 1500 left)
Hoarder's Edition includes a printed book edition of the "Crate Story" (Gives a behind-the-scenes look at the struggle of starting a new game studio and tells the story of Crate from the last days of Iron Lore to the development of Grim Dawn and the many challenges we've overcome along the way. Will include color photos and concept art from development). + Grim Dawn poster signed by Arthur Bruno + Everything from the Boxed Deluxe Edition and Digital Deluxe Edition but with 2 digital copies of the game with access to the alpha and beta. (Please add $10 for shipping outside the US & Canada)Estimated delivery: Nov 2013
Pledge $375 or more
31 backers Limited (969 of 1000 left)
Enthusiast's Edition is mainly for fans who just wanted a way to contribute more and get a little something without extra physical merchandise. It includes 4 digital copies with access to alpha and beta + Your game box signed by the Grim Dawn team + Your book signed by Arthur Bruno + Everything from the Hoarder's Edition, except the extra game copies, which are included in the 4 copies above.Estimated delivery: Nov 2013
Pledge $1,000 or more
10 backers Limited (240 of 250 left)
You get to name something in-game (must be suitable and appropriate)! Could be an NPC, hero monster, equipment, gravestone or in-game fiction. + Your name will appear in a special "boss" section of the credits. + Everything from the Enthusiast's Edition but with 10 digital copies of the game with access to the alpha and beta.Estimated delivery: Aug 2013
Pledge $4,000 or more
1 backer Limited (19 of 20 left)
Create and name your own equipment set! You get to choose the name for a unique item set and choose the completion bonus! (We set the values for balancing reasons and can reject inappropriate names) + Everything from the Enthusiast's Edition but with 15 digital copies of the game with access to the alpha and beta.Estimated delivery: Aug 2013
Pledge $8,000 or more
1 backer Limited (14 of 15 left)
Collaborate with Grim Dawn designers to create your own side-quest! Note that side-quests must be relatively simple and we reserve the right to reject ideas that don't fit the game (but if that happens, you can try again). + Skype lunch (or in person if you happen to be around Boston or want to meet in San Francisco during the week of GDC) with Arthur Bruno and other team members of the Crate team where we can talk about development and listen to your feedback. + Everything from the Enthusiast's Edition but with 20 digital copies of the game with access to the alpha and beta.Estimated delivery: Aug 2013