Kickstarter

Creator Kyle 2 days ago

A note of advice to anyone thinking of investing another penny in this project, please take note of the character that's running this show.

As Barry must have realized he can't sue me for speaking the truth about what a mess this project has turned into, he decided he would look me up on LinkedIn and try calling my employer to get me fired for stating that he stole our money. Obviously, this was so preposterous and it did not work for Mr Burr. Instead of just using common sense and refunding the money he took without fulfilling his obligations, he went out of his away to try and tarnish my reputation! Talk about a great way to run a business and provide customer service! I couldn't even dream up something this crazy!

Creator Bheleu 5 days ago

Was reading up on batteries because a Dailysteals has a lion battery pack/charger light for $35 (next 18hrs). Uses an 18650 battery instead but charger may work as a spare and batt may work if shimmed but less capacity. Anyways was reading on the battery diff, and they said batteries have a 3yr lifespan. Have batteries all been purchased? Just curious if the clock is running on them.

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/12384

Creator monica berlin on May 28

Hi Barry.... Is there any chance of me getting my light before I ride the 508 solo this year (in October)? I know you have a lot going on but for an event like that I'm sure you understand I need to plan it out, so I really need an answer. Thank you

Creator David McCullough on May 11

Aloha all - clearly, more communication is better even if its short. Barry, legal issues aside, maybe posting a bit more on status would help alleviate some of the whining / concerns people have.

It's been months or over a year on some projects I've backed. If people are into this for thousands then I can understand the concern. But if it is for one or two lights - getting some perspective may help. Getting nasty or threatening usually doesn't help things get better. Thanks for reading.

David

Creator Mark on May 11

This is more like it. I'd like to think this sort of straight information will calm the masses and avoid unfortunate reactions to frustration. Thanks Barry.

Creator steve goddyn on May 11

The way I read this update is this: he's had problems with a company that was forcing him to use their parts, even if they were failing when put together. But he doesn't want to compromise his light, and wants us to have the light he envisioned... Also, between the lines, I seem to understand that some company has also tried to steal his idea. It also seems very clear to me that he is going to provide us with the lights, he just is going through legal things, and has to be careful on what he says because if he says something here, it might give ammo to the other side. I didn't see any post where he says he will not provide the lights.
Plus I don't know, but from what I've seen so far on kickstarter, I've seen many a project take more time than it was supposed to for various reasons. A couple of the ones I've backed have taken more time. In the end I've always gotten the product, even if I'm still waiting on some.
I for one will see this through and hope to get a light at the other end of the tunnel ;)

Creator Mark on May 11

Barry. While all that you had to do was post as you promised with regularity you have failed to do so. You broke my trust in you. You couldn't just post and apologize for letting your supporters down? Kyle's post to me is his frustration with your lack of ability to follow through. The statement that you will have lawyers go after Kyle is not proper for your update. It is amazing someone who won't refund a few upset supporters to hold onto money for production will happily spend money to sick the lawyers one person doesn't make sense. All this bluster about knowing attorney's in high places doesn't mean anything to any of us. How about you just stick to what you promised, we all paid, and send the lights when they are ready?

Creator Kyle on May 9

Barry posts away on Facebook like all is well and that he hasn't stolen $32k from us and isn't completely ignoring us.

I want my money back. Unless he somehow produces REAL answers by the end of the week, I'm starting the ball rolling on taking Mr Burr to small claims court to reclaim my money.

Creator john shields on May 9

Barry

Roses can be red, violets can be blue
Another week has gone by without word from you
Each day in the post there is no delight
For there is no package with your light
The light was paid for, of course months ago
But for that money, there is nothing to show
While you promised updates every third week
There is nothing but silence, and the future looks bleak
Its long past time that you clean up this disorder
and advise your backers about their order

Creator Adam on May 7

Barry,

Having read all of your updates, I think some of us still have some questions to be answered. We know that you would like to get the production run at peak efficiency but are you taking orders outside of this Kickstarter project? If not then how do you expect to get the run size large enough to make it worth it?

I think most people are patient and have given their money to you because they believe that you can make a great bike light. Can you give us more information so that we aren't just waiting months and months while you keep our money? At least please try to give us an update on order numbers, or possibly use us as a resource to find new customers so that we can reach a point where you will go into full production.

Thanks.

Adam

Creator Isaac on May 3

seems like I just lost over hundred dollars of hard earned part-time money. great.

Creator john shields on May 1

It is now into May. No news for over a month. The last "update" was a picture of a battery sold by others. I hoped to get my light months ago. That didn't happen. What is really happening?

Creator Mark on April 24

Sure would be be nice Kyle to hear something.

Creator Kyle on April 22

It's been 4 and a half weeks since our last "every 3 weeks" update.

How about some news on when we're getting refunds?

Creator Bheleu on April 9

Kind of random, but I had to crawl under a house and photo issues with it using my iPad and a headband headlight (self inspection of one we were looking to buy). The issue I had was that the headband light was bright in the middle and did not evenly illuminate the area (too tight a beam and major hot spotting). Barry's light as I understand his description would likely not suffer the same fate had I had it available as he more effectively spreads the beam with less of a hotspot effect than a tradition beam. Maybe his will be not just my new bike lamp, but also my iPad camera illuminator. If proven effective as such this could even get him additional funding from the iPad camera crowd, or cellphone camera investors needing a more balanced constant light source.

Creator john shields on April 7

Barry. How many lumens is the current prototype showing?

Creator Bheleu on March 31

Happy Birthday Barry!

Creator Bheleu on March 21

Barry will get there eventually, and I have no doubt it will be a great light when he has them finalized. I am in no rush, look forward to seeing one in person and wish any of you in Barry's neck of the woods would check out what he has and report in with an unbiased response to the rest of us. Maybe I will have my orange pebble before my bike light? It has been almost a year since I backed that project and pebble is horrendously late, but the demand is there and finally showing up on people's wrist after about half a year delay on fulfillment. And thanks Steve for the KS reality check, that there is accountability. Maybe it will help Barry focus a little more on getting his light to market? I hope so, because I want him to succeed even if we have to push him a little to get there. I am a believer in his light, though I have not seen it - I have faith. The fact that he has a standing offer to show it to people in his area of the US, he is not hiding it but letting it shine. Yeah those are corny biblical references, but the truth. Hide it under a Bushel NO! Barry's going to let it shine! And I can understand him not wanting to send one outside the country for any reason until after all intellectual protections are in place (and even then he admitted to flaws that developed from that early proto build that would not have been trustworthy to use in a night race). Maybe once everything is good to go he will logo them as Kickstarter Editions, or sign the battery compartments with a sharpe so we know that light/components personally met his quality standards? That would be a fun treat and would cost him only a sharpe and a little bit of time. Anyways, thanks for this weeks update Barry - Kudos!

Creator Steve Hunter on March 18

Oops! Apologies for the long comment guys (didn't look that big when I typed it out).

Creator Steve Hunter on March 18

Whilst we're waiting for Barry's official 3 week update (which was due 11 days ago) - it might be worth having a read of the Kickstarter accountability FAQ: http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#Acco

What should creators do if they're having problems completing their project?
If problems come up, creators are expected to post a project update (which is emailed to all backers) explaining the situation. Sharing the story, speed bumps and all, is crucial. Most backers support projects because they want to see something happen and they'd like to be a part of it. Creators who are honest and transparent will usually find backers to be understanding.

If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps could include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers.

If something has made it impossible to fulfill the pledges without somehow finding an addiitonal 75K beyond the initial kickstarter funds, then I'm thinking this should be a case where Barry offers to do the honorable thing and elect to refund all or part of the funds for those folk who want it.

Whilst Kickstarter is absolutely not an 'online shop', the project creator has an obligation to honor his commitments:

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

The challenge that we all (as backers) have is that the obligations aren't time-bounded (which is fine, I've never backed a single project that shipped on time) - but I think if the project cannot continue without substantial additional funding which is unlikely to be forthcoming (seriously - the project now requires an extra 600% of what was originally asked for?) .. then how likely is it that the creator can honor his commitment? Not very, I'd say.

That being said, it's only a month later right now than the original planned date - and even August as the revised date being 6 months behind schedule makes this project very late, but not uniquely so. Question is - if we get to August and there's still no sign of the light, then will we get a refund?

Note that this comment isn't directed to Barry (he's already said he will no longer reply to me), but rather to the 248 other folk like me out there who are watching the increasingly 'legalese' responses from Barry that we may have recourse to address later in the year.

@Mark - in your email that you posted, Barry stated: Kickstarter also is emphatic that there is no assurance that any project will reach fruition, or that listed rewards will be delivered within estimated delivery dates, nor any guarantee, written nor implied, that the startup will be able to deliver the reward that is listed for the amount that the backer has invested.

Might be technically correct, but that last sentence implies a refund if it can't be delivered at the price we invested, as the wording of the "Creator Responsibility" page that Barry would have seen when he proceeded to launch the project says: "If your project is successfully funded, you are required to fill all rewards or refund any backer whose reward you do not or cannot fulfill. A failure to do so could result in damage to your reputation or even legal action on behalf of your backers.".

Food for thought, I'm certainly looking forward to Barry's next detailed update.

Creator Bheleu on March 18

Those who are frustrated should keep in mind it was Sandy that ruined a good bit of the progress of this project, as it was the destruction of the cheap trustworthy US manufacturing that Barry was initially relying on among other issues he encountered. There are a lot of various US vendors still out there, and I am sure that is where Barry is getting his newer numbers from for the higher production cost. $32k does not earn one much of a living after taxes, business expenses, etc. just glad he is still trying to get a solution beyond his one prototype that has issues. It sounds like the solution he is now working towards is protecting his IP then go to lower cost foreign production? Knowing his standards, he will ensure whomever produces the Barry Beams will do so true to design goals - better light throw and dispersion characteristics, not another blindingly inefficient road hazard light. This is what his IP is all about, what we funded to be built, etc. I do not know Barry, am a backer the same as the rest but I have realistic standards, a day job, and know how tough it is to take care of all the daily responsibilities I have. Kudos to Barry for starting this project, for innovating, and hopefully he can get these built to his design standards. If he does, we get a really cool light. If he does not, we lose out and I am pretty sure he feels bad things have not gone as smoothly as he hoped to this point. I hope he succeeds, not just so that I get my lights but because know I helped to fund someone's dream of a really cool bike light.

Creator skim on March 16

Mike, that just means the project collected the pledge money. I see that for other backed projects that funded successfully.

Creator Michael Grafton on March 16

I read on the Kickstarter "Backer History" that I have already "Collected" my light.

I have NOT received it yet.

Mike

Creator Isaac on March 11

I understand where you are coming From. I understand that this is not a store. I understand that I am backing a Startup venture.

But I also backed on your assurances, and what I saw to be reliability and accountability when I first read your kickstarter. I'm sure many did as well.

I know problems happen, and I would have been fine if things were handled differently.

But this is the first time I have seen replies posted to backers like you did to me and the one below here to Mark. That is just a HUGE SLAP IN THE FACE.

You are not the first person I backed who has delayed products over 4 months+. But you are the first who has replied to backers in such a manner, and I'm sorry but right now, I'm really disgusted.

Thanks for nothing.

Creator Mark on March 10

I requested a refund at the end of January and Barry's response was:

Dear Amazon Payments,
As you know, and as the management of Kickstarter emphasize in many ways, Kickstarter is not a store.
Kickstarter goes to great lengths to insure that backers understand that they are not customers, who are making purchases.
Rather that they are backers. The funding each backer posts is an investment in a startup venture, for specified amount of money for which Amazon processes the funds transfer.
Kickstarter project reward delivery dates are estimates. The Kickstarter website openly states and publishes this as being so.
Kickstarter also is emphatic that there is no assurance that any project will reach fruition, or that listed rewards will be delivered within estimated delivery dates, nor any guarantee, written nor implied, that the startup will be able to deliver the reward that is listed for the amount that the backer has invested.
Kickstarter performs due diligence to within their best efforts to insure that project founders and operators will conduct themselves on a best efforts basis to finish the product design, and produce and deliver at least a minimum necessary quantity.
At the current time, my product's development is complete, and tooling and parts production is in progress.

Mr. XXX has not made a purchase,

nor are any goods due him at this time. When such time arises as there are goods produced, he will receive the listed reward for having invested in my venture at the level he did. If he didn't understand the risks involved in grassroots investing, that is his negligence for failing to do sufficient due diligence to understand the risks and liabilities of this form of investing in startup ventures.

Other Kickstarter projects have encountered similar delays, and disgruntled backers. Amazon Payments is no doubt aware of this, and has been handled disgruntled Kickstarter project backers and investers before.
However as Kickstarter continually affirms, I and other Kickstarter projects who have reached similar business conditions as Barry Beams has encountered are still fully in compliance with the Kickstarter terms of service.
I am not drawing a salary, and am conducting sound financial practices to accomplish as much as possible with the Kickstarter funding along. I also have a computer industry career and day job from which I invest considerable additional funding or my own, out of pocket.
Barry Beams Lighting is continuing with best efforts to continue forward with having the lights described on the Kickstarter project manufactured and delivered, and no refund is due.

Creator Mark on March 10

.

Creator Kyle on March 10

$75,000 more!?!! This project originally only asked for $12,600!

Barry, you realize that any potential investor is going to see this kickstarter and the way you're handling your existing backers and run away screaming from any potential deal with you.

You promised the lights in January, and told us the design was basically done, it just needed to be manufactured. We've seen basically no progress since you told us things were all back on the drawing board. No updated pictures of demos, no light output, not a single physical thing other than talk of lawyers.

You could have had some amazing press and feedback from the first 250 fans of your product by getting us a light (quickly) that did what you claimed. Think how willing people would be to invest if they saw how happy we were with our first batch of kickstarter lights and all the reviews we posted online and YouTube vidoes of us actually using them. Then you could have used those new investors and positive press to fund your legal troubles and scale production.

But now you've just got 250 people pissed off at you, which are going to ruin any future hopes of more investment.

So help us help you.

Give refunds to those that request them. You didn't meet your goals, and problems happened. Its understandable, but that's not the backer's fault. You need to do some damage control, do what you can to make things right. No one else is going to invest with you if you're pissing off your existing customers/investors (which you are.)

Get some lights in production and out to us backers ASAP (not August). Even if is costs you a little more than full scale mass production will.

I'm not trying to be confrontational here, and am honestly hoping that we can all walk away from this happily.

Creator Isaac on March 9

Hi, is it possible to get a refund thanks to the HUGE delay? I was thinking I'm better off spending money on a NiteRider Lumina 650 that I can use RIGHT NOW.

Please Reply. Thanks.

Creator Steve Hunter on February 27

Thanks for the detailed reply, and as I indicated in my original reply to you accepting your offer, I'd let the forum know how that turned out and sharing your email was the best way to do that, in my judgement. That being said, I appreciate your perspective and wish you the best of luck in delivering this product to your backers. Looking forward to your regular 3 week updates. Rgds, Steve.

Creator Bheleu on February 25

I for one understand Barry's hesitation and artistic goals. Preproduction hardware is design proof of concept, one of a kind, and expensive. The mass production run, when feasible cuts the costs down, improves quality, and it is protected. I also realize, for you it is a light you paid good $$$ for and were expecting to have it already (same boat, but no race, I just want a quality light).

Creator Steve Hunter on February 24

Barry,

I'm disappointed that you're not willing to send me a preproduction light as you said you would. I certainly wouldn't give it to anyone to copy and I doubt anyone in remote Borneo would steal it from me. The fact that it wouldn't handle any bumpy trails makes me wonder how you're "US racers" are testing this if it wouldn't survive a race?

I'd love my money back more than your light, so if you want to "support" me in my race, please feel free to refund my money and I'll buy another MagicShine for the race.

Trying to maintain the faith, but it's increasingly hard to do.

~~~
Hi Steve,
Sorry, I can't let a complete assembly that could be copied go out of the country, and the battery tabs are only test stampings in copper. The stainless tabs are needed to avoid breakage or losing power from tabs bending under a lot of shock and impact, or the solder connection to the circuit board failing. Very good chance after a few hours of bumpy trail, the battery negative tab would separate form the main board, or the battery negative tab would bend on the contact arm and would not recoil, so you would lose power that way.
If you're racing on the US west coast or in races with other people I lend lights to I could set you up, else please stand by til I have the production finished. You'll get one of the first ones made once I've shaken them down.
Sincerely,
Barry

Creator Bheleu on February 24

Esh those light look cheap, hope your making progress Barry.

Creator Bheleu on February 24

$8 cheap front and rear light with AAA batteries, http://lastcall.dailysteals.com/
Ends in a few hours.

Question: What do you have that would be part of the final assembly, batteries, LEDs, etc?
Just curious...

Creator Steve Hunter on February 22

Barry - I've left a unicast mail for you with the dates and shipping details for you to loan me a pre-production light before use. As I mentioned in the email, I'm happy to pay for the two-way postage after I've completed the race. Thanks, Steve.

Will let everyone know how it goes once received.

Creator Scott Napier on February 15

Patience is a virtue! Look forward to another update; in ABOUT 3 weeks (give or take a few days).

Creator Kyle on February 15

We were told updates every 3 weeks, yet its been 3 weeks without any update...

Some business advice for you Barry: under promise and over deliver. Stop setting expectations for yourself that you're not going to meet and be realistic with us.

Give us some reasons to restore our trust in you!

Creator Bheleu on February 2

Page 2 Backer #83: Trying to figure out where I am on pebble, so thought I would post which of the Barry Beam backers I was in the list.

Creator Steve Hunter on January 30

Barry, thank you for replying and engaging in some two-way discussion here.

As you suggest, I'll send you a unicast mail with some details on the race I'm participating in (www.sabahadventurechallenge.com in Borneo on 29-31 March).

I'd be keen to trial a preproduction light and give feedback - although I bought a Magicshine MJ-808E from Amazon and did a trial run with it last weekend and it will do for the race if you can't get a trial one shipped to Singapore in time.

Looking forward to the next update.

Cheers,
Steve